Vietnam presents Thai Air Force with MiG-21bis fighter

[iphad]

Having flown the F-4 against the Mig-21 in many post Vietnam War peacetime training stories.....a few corrections/comments

As with any fighter, the MIG-21 is only as good as the pilot/crew. With a good pilot, the MIG-21 was a formidable opponent in a close in dogfight. It's weapons and radar systems were not good in Vietnam timeframe. If they could come I to the fight un observed or get the F-4 into a turning fight then the MIG-21 had a chance. But the pilot still made the difference. In Vietnam there were just a few good NV pilots. The newer equipment like the Mig-21 was often flown by Chinese pilots.

The F-4E saw late and limited combat with the F-4C and D being the primary aircraft flown. The few F-4Es were dedicated air to air while the others carried bombs.

As for the uninformed comments regarding US military activities, capabilities etc, I find it ironic when they come from those who grew up in Europe where the landscape is dotted with US military cemeteries, the final resting place for thousand of US men who gave their all in defense of Europe. I caution you that this anti-US attitude is beginning to result in US people being fed up with the sacrifices made to help those less capable. Soon the rest of the world just might have to live with more extremist/terrorist religious based countries, Russian oil, and defend themselves against the likes of Putin and Al Queada without the support of the US. Good luck with that. Also, the ONLY reason China is held in check is because of US power. So bash the US and their outstanding military capability but be prepared to go it alone. Have a nice day.

I agree with your first part about Mig-21's in Vietnam.

The 2nd part is just a rant & is total propaganda & not accurate...but I respect your opinion.

[pmarlin]

I'm confused. Did the Thais fight with the North to overcome the treacherous south supported by the US. 'Cos if they did... they won! (Just like in WW2... but that time they lost.)

You're right you are confused.

[The Deerhunter]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

Hokum.

Do you actually believe the stats that North Vietnam pushed out?

Bigger fool you if you do, I would trust the stats of a communist country at war about as far as I could throw a Mig 21!

The link you posted isn't even verified.

American fighters had a far superior kill ratio to the Vietnamese, 19:3 for the F8 fighter the F4 shot down 66 Mig 21's, confirmed kills and finished the war with an 11:1 kill ratio (although it started with a much lower ratio until a machine gun was fitted for dog fighting)..

Considering that Mig 21's didn't often mix it up with US fighters but would fly in at top speed, attack bombers and keep going I don't see how the figures can be close to correct.

The North Vietnamese didn't have that many Mig 21's and used them sparingly because of the kill ratio.

Now that sounds a lot more like everything I have ever read. I too would not trust Vietnam's figures. I have friends who did two tours in F4's & they seem to have a different story along with every TV doco i have ever seen. The US had so many planes there that the Vietnam AF stayed on the ground most of the time to protect planes and relied on AA fire which was very effective for them and downed a huge numbber of US planes.. Most stories talk about dodging AA not Migs.

Edited July 18, 2014 by The Deerhunter

[UbonRatch]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

So it will be interesting to see a good example up close, guessing it will be at Wing 41 Chiang Mai?

The yanks used Thailand as a major staging post for innumerable air strikes as the dropped their c..p all over Laos and Vietnam, as well as Wattay Noi in Vientiane and Diego Garcia.

That is why it so nice and easy to fly around the Kingdom now - thank you Uncle Sam for all the concrete

All that concrete and billions of dollars which lost a very embarrasing war encounter?

I'd have sooner seen a gift from the UK, like a Spitfire or Gloster Meteor, just to add insult to injury after Thailand's declaration of war on the US and UK d

uring WWII

I guess you'll next be posting that the Messchersmits did more that Spits and Hurricanes, na?

[Cuchulainn]

What's wrong with it? Elastic band broken?

[iphad]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

I think it's more a diplomatic gesture that Vietnam & Thailand will continue friendly relations in spite of the Thai Military coup.

Probably since the majority of Vietnamese were born after 1975, the people & government of Vietnam have moved on re. the War with the US.

Vietnam is still a communist country & if anything Thailand is anti communist so that part of politics it's a non issue.

As with Thailand it's about trade & investments.

I don't see signs that Thailand is "hell bent on building a dependency on China", if there's politics involved it's about Tourism & friendly relations.

As to other countries with ASEAN being worried about China,

Malaysia is very close to China.

Sg is also very close,also Laos & Myanmar(Burma).

Yes Vietnam has centuries of mistrust with China.

I think none of the countries involved want to be dependent or controlled by China..or the US.

Edited July 18, 2014 by iphad

[Kanthralak 1]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

So it will be interesting to see a good example up close, guessing it will be at Wing 41 Chiang Mai?

The yanks used Thailand as a major staging post for innumerable air strikes as the dropped their c..p all over Laos and Vietnam, as well as Wattay Noi in Vientiane and Diego Garcia.

That is why it so nice and easy to fly around the Kingdom now - thank you Uncle Sam for all the concrete

Hmmm!!! Seems Uncle Sam's fly boy's weren't so hot after all. Oh! how Hollywood can create differing opinion. Looks like the so called "Gooks" out flew them

[Chris Lawrence]

RTAF Commander-in-Chief Prajin Junthong thought he was also going to get the keys. Free airplane? Charge back to the Government at about 186 million yuan? $30 million in US

Edited July 18, 2014 by Chris Lawrence

[Wat dee]

Having flown the F-4 against the Mig-21 in many post Vietnam War peacetime training stories.....a few corrections/comments

As with any fighter, the MIG-21 is only as good as the pilot/crew. With a good pilot, the MIG-21 was a formidable opponent in a close in dogfight. It's weapons and radar systems were not good in Vietnam timeframe. If they could come I to the fight un observed or get the F-4 into a turning fight then the MIG-21 had a chance. But the pilot still made the difference. In Vietnam there were just a few good NV pilots. The newer equipment like the Mig-21 was often flown by Chinese pilots.

The F-4E saw late and limited combat with the F-4C and D being the primary aircraft flown. The few F-4Es were dedicated air to air while the others carried bombs.

As for the uninformed comments regarding US military activities, capabilities etc, I find it ironic when they come from those who grew up in Europe where the landscape is dotted with US military cemeteries, the final resting place for thousand of US men who gave their all in defense of Europe. I caution you that this anti-US attitude is beginning to result in US people being fed up with the sacrifices made to help those less capable. Soon the rest of the world just might have to live with more extremist/terrorist religious based countries, Russian oil, and defend themselves against the likes of Putin and Al Queada without the support of the US. Good luck with that. Also, the ONLY reason China is held in check is because of US power. So bash the US and their outstanding military capability but be prepared to go it alone. Have a nice day.

Rest of the world is also fed up with US sacrifices and wishes all of you all the best and go home!

[CNXBKKMAN]

Nevermind the the stats the North Vietnamese won the war. They shot down a lot of US aircraft mainly with missiles and ground fire. I am guessing this Mig aircraft will be at the RTAF museum at Don Muang, not in Chiang Mai.

[rametindallas]

I'm confused. Did the Thais fight with the North to overcome the treacherous south supported by the US. 'Cos if they did... they won! (Just like in WW2... but that time they lost.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBvjcDNSg1w

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-9780824834890.aspx

http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/292/465

[zydeco]

I'm confused. Did the Thais fight with the North to overcome the treacherous south supported by the US. 'Cos if they did... they won! (Just like in WW2... but that time they lost.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBvjcDNSg1w

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-9780824834890.aspx

http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/292/465

Thanks for those. The book, In Buddha's Company, looks very interesting. I'll try and track it down.

[tomross46]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

There were many North Vietnamese fighter pilots, and some of them were very good.

[tonbridgebrit]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

[zydeco]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

The last time Vietnam fought a war, it wasn't with the United States. It was with China.

[rametindallas]

does it have a log book and MOT and operating manual with it ,and a kit of virtually unavailable parts, better get a flight simulator as well

It's a non-flying museum piece so, no, it doesn't include those things.

[surangw]

I wonder who will get the spare parts contract ?

[tifino]

as with @ iphad, the Vietnam War, aka South East Asian war, aka the American War, ended in 1973 - not 1975 shown dated in the OP (29feb73 the day [give or take a day], the Armistice was signed off)

... approx 2 years later (24apr75) the action started up, this time purely between the Nth invading the Sth (so technically it was really a Civil Action).

The stormed building, with the tank show-ponying the smash through the gates - the gates of the U.S. Embassy.

The soldiers there were US soldiers, serving as Embassy guards.

U.S. nor any other foreign western country were warring in Vietnam in 1975.

Having the US (oh, and the OZ etc) embassies operating proves there was no war at the time, as if it was war, then no diplomatic operations would have been in place.

US ships off the coast at the time were maintaining a presence for peacekeeping duties.

The Hueys seen flying from the Embassy, the ones seen being shoved off the Carriers were actually sth viet flown-commandeered sth viet machines - not US war craft.

The troops who received vietnam war medals for duty over there, after 29feb73, should if anything, only have received civil humanitarian medals.

[iphad]

as with @ iphad, the Vietnam War, aka South East Asian war, aka the American War, ended in 1973 - not 1975 shown dated in the OP (29feb73 the day [give or take a day], the Armistice was signed off)

... approx 2 years later (24apr75) the action started up, this time purely between the Nth invading the Sth (so technically it was really a Civil Action).

The stormed building, with the tank show-ponying the smash through the gates - the gates of the U.S. Embassy.

The soldiers there were US soldiers, serving as Embassy guards.

U.S. nor any other foreign western country were warring in Vietnam in 1975.

Having the US (oh, and the OZ etc) embassies operating proves there was no war at the time, as if it was war, then no diplomatic operations would have been in place.

US ships off the coast at the time were maintaining a presence for peacekeeping duties.

The Hueys seen flying from the Embassy, the ones seen being shoved off the Carriers were actually sth viet flown-commandeered sth viet machines - not US war craft.

The troops who received vietnam war medals for duty over there, after 29feb73, should if anything, only have received civil humanitarian medals.

Thxs for telling me the Vietnam war ended in 1973.

I might have got it mixed with the "Fall of Saigon" that occurred April 30,1975 that the Vietnamese & most normal non Americans consider the end of the War when the Americans were finally kicked out of Vietnam scrambling to get onto helicopters from the roof of their embassy in Saigon.

[rametindallas]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

[tifino]

HCM didn't defeat America - there was an Armistice, the same as WW1

HCM defeated sth vietnam

[Eliot Rosewater]

Oh well, we all know how much the Thais love pink things....

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bangrak]

'He said the fighter was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerfull at that time' ...and had mostly been taking off from USAF bases located in Thailand! No, no, erase that last, it's too 'conflictual', truth can not be told to the Thais, it would be such a shock for them, and they might get the 'bad' idea to start wanting to learn about their own past! Avoid, avoid, at all cost!

[iphad]

HCM didn't defeat America - there was an Armistice, the same as WW1

HCM defeated sth vietnam

Before you start making a mountain out of a molehill.

I stated in my post > "Probably since the majority of Vietnamese were born after 1975, the people & government of Vietnam have moved on re. the War with the US."

It's you arguing over when the end of the war was & not when North Vietnam took over the south & got rid of the US puppet regime installed there.

I still stand by my post.

[TPI]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

The fighters did fall foul of the mig 21, the B52 were dropped in their dozens by the SAM's, at one time there were at least 400 complete US air force uniforms, down to the underwear and pistols for sale at the "hanoi Hilton"!

[sgtsabai]

Please read the links in rametindallas post. Uncle Ho, as we called him, didn't want to fight the US, he based the Vietnamese Constitution on the now defunct US Constitution. He worked hand in hand with the OSS during WWII and begged the US for help after the war for help with independence for Vietnam. South and North Vietnam was an artificial creation of the Geneva Accords in 1954 to give a cooling off period and time for the French to boogie out before reconciliation elections. The US prevented those elections and hell followed afterward. Many brave men and women on both sides lost their lives in another war that never should have been fought. My ex-father in law was a squadron commander F-100's and yea I was on the ground. May the gods bless you my brothers and sisters, not a day goes by I don't remember. The MIG 21 and the pilots, Russian it has long been rumored, ah, wait there was at least one legit VN ace (sorry don't remember name), led to the Top Gun school and long overdue dogfighting armament on the F-4. That changed the game. Making the same mistake again with the piece of junk F-35.

[bangrak]

HCM didn't defeat America - there was an Armistice, the same as WW1

HCM defeated sth vietnam

Are you a Thai or a US citizen? No loss of face, never admit defeat, you must be Thai then, although quite some ill-informed or manipulated people in the US, not only by Republican party extremists, are still in denial of the deserved flat-on-the-belly defeat there, deserved because of your blunt hillbilly way of imposing your narrow-minded materialistic way of life to the populations, because of your blind trust in your military power, because of your military command wearing blinds, because of your politicians being afraid of the media, and the voters, with so many boys coming home in body-bags, or missing a limb, or two, because of your own CIA helping the French being kicked out (considered too weak and potential future 'accomplices' in the establishment of socialist governments in Indochina), because... No, in fact, you're right, it was not a defeat, the US armed forces were routed in Nahm... look at the pictures of the last days of Saigon, and the Billions USD of equipment left behind, or thrown off of the carriers' decks, the hundreds of POWs left in VC 'hands', the hunderd thousands of Vietnamese 'friends' refused an asylum, etc., I should have been there, but wasn't, you weren't anywhere near may I guess, Mr Kissinger...

[TPI]

All I ask is that Americans remember that ho chi minh used the preamble of the US constitution as the preamble of the Vietnamese constitution! Ho begged the US to support him but the republicans in the US said that he was anti US business therefore a "communist" and had to be put down!

[zydeco]

All I ask is that Americans remember that ho chi minh used the preamble of the US constitution as the preamble of the Vietnamese constitution! Ho begged the US to support him but the republicans in the US said that he was anti US business therefore a "communist" and had to be put down!

Actually, it was the Truman administration that opened the door for the French to reoccupy Indochina. But the Republicans followed up with their own blundering as well. One thing I do know is that, generally, I like the Vietnamese . . . more than I like the French.

[TPI]

HCM didn't defeat America - there was an Armistice, the same as WW1

HCM defeated sth vietnam

Are you a Thai or a US citizen? No loss of face, never admit defeat, you must be Thai then, although quite some ill-informed or manipulated people in the US, not only by Republican party extremists, are still in denial of the deserved flat-on-the-belly defeat there, deserved because of your blunt hillbilly way of imposing your narrow-minded materialistic way of life to the populations, because of your blind trust in your military power, because of your military command wearing blinds, because of your politicians being afraid of the media, and the voters, with so many boys coming home in body-bags, or missing a limb, or two, because of your own CIA helping the French being kicked out (considered too weak and potential future 'accomplices' in the establishment of socialist governments in Indochina), because... No, in fact, you're right, it was not a defeat, the US armed forces were routed in Nahm... look at the pictures of the last days of Saigon, and the Billions USD of equipment left behind, or thrown off of the carriers' decks, the hundreds of POWs left in VC 'hands', the hunderd thousands of Vietnamese 'friends' refused an asylum, etc., I should have been there, but wasn't, you weren't anywhere near may I guess, Mr Kissinger...

Steady Mr Bangrak, calm down, the political decision to abandon Sth VN was made in the interests of "realpoitik"! Theu was a spent force and the people were sick of the war so they ended it!

Remember that the US had no combat units in SVN at the time of the final push, apart from the marines left on the roof of the embassy, until the next day!!

Don't feel guilty about missing this particular war, while it was fun while it lasted we all have to grow up eventually?