Calls mount for justice over MH17

[mok199]

russia is 100% involved and the proof is in the Putin...as if i need another reason to dislike those sloths...

[metisdead]

Some more conspiracy theory nonsense has been removed. This is not the time or place to be putting forth conspiracy nonsense.

[Richard W]

Doesn't anybody wonder how the rebels managed to steal the weapons system, arm it, track their target and bring down an aircraft from 33,000 feet without some technical assistance?

It's designed to be operated by conscripts. The challenge is to keep it operational, not to use it.

There are also reports of Russians providing training - though there's no reason that this wasn't simply refresher courses!

The Russian military had to have something to do with this and I see no way of getting around that.

In this case, it does seem that the launcher is Russian property rather than Ukrainian property.

The plane is destroyed yet the passports that were found are pristine...

There are a lot of big pieces of the aircraft around, so I'm not surprised there are intact passports. A lot of the damage looks like fire on the ground. Bodies have been recovered from roofs - much material was not burnt. Passports may have been retrieved from hand-baggage.

[Thunder26]

To Chopperboy

That video of the rebels talking to the Russians was time stamped on the day before the crash.

Ukraine had a democratically elected government - before the take over by a bunch on neo Nazis funded from the West.

They claim they can't find MH370 but yet within one hour start the media machine blaming the Russians for MH17.

The Russians have nothing to gain while the west clearly does - no fly zone to aid their rebels.

Reports and video footage taken at the time of the crash showing that the corpses were already in stages of decay.

The plane is destroyed yet the passports that were found are pristine...

Thunder26

I wasn't solely informed from the video that was aired on CNN and BBC, and if you understand Russian it is impossible to stage it to such detail. The separatist leader Strelkov reported himself on his official web page that they shot down the plane without knowing it was a commercial flight. When they realized it all the messages were deleted (thanks to google that stores the old data now we know the truth) and the lying machine from Russian media had begun confusing people with a zillion theories and excuses.

I agree with you that Russia has nothing to gain from it. It was a mistake made by idiot rebels that have been shooting anything that was flying in the sky since April 2014, a mistake that took almost 300 innocent lives and who had nothing to do with Ukrainian - Russian conflict. I am pretty sure Putin is furious right now. It was a big blunder and no wonder they had emergency meetings figuring out how to wash their hands. It is known and well documented that Russia supported the separatism in Eastern Ukraine, not only morally but also by supplying ammunition. Ammunition sic! that is capable of shooting commercial flights.

I don't know if you read my posts regarding MH370 in TV, especially my last post where I stated that the first news are the most credible. The rest is just the cover up.

[Johpa]

There is enough blame to be spread around rather generously. But it would appear that the primary responsibility, the only direct blame, rests with Putin, who it would appear provided the SA 11 SAM missile system to a rebel group, a missile sytem whose use would have depended upon direct Russian military support as the SA 11 is a relatively complex system to operate. Although far lesser in nature, blame should also rest with the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) for failing to close these air routes to civilian aircraft immediately after the rebel groups had demonstrated their possesion of, and ability to fire SA 11 missiles at high flying aircraft in the days before the downing of MH17 The heads of MAS should have also taken note of this development. Meanwhile the rest of the world's political leadership, not to mention the world's press, should be held to account over the past 15 years for bestowing the thug Putin the large amount of legitimacy given to someome who is the head of a massive criminal colonial landscape. But we have seeen elsewhere the world's politicians giving legitimacy to undeserving people in exchange to access to oil as long as those oil revenues are deposited back into the proper banks.

[cup-O-coffee]

Times are changing. This, it seems to me, is merely another event in a long series of more frequent events meant to raise our levels of tolerance... our levels of apathy. After realizing that there is nothing we, the common people can do about it, or ever will actually do about it, I reckon that we will simply all try to justify it out of our minds and hope for the best in the face of these changing times.

The line keeps moving out. Governments are worthless. They seem to operate at their own pace and are ever more becoming more detached to the common people. When I read what some government official says, I truly get the feeling of vulnerability and detachment from their words. GOvernments are ineffective against these times.

As the days go by, this behavior that governments have coined as terrorism, is, to me, nothing more than the behavior that is filling the vacuum left behind when leadership and action left the building.

There are no leaders anymore. No one wants to step foward and make something happen. No. Actually I am wrong. There are leaders. Those leaders seem to be the ones heading up these terorist organizations. They seem to be the ones making all the actions and getting things done. It is an odd twist on things.

There must be some kind of psychology going on here that is breeding these baseless, cruel animals who seem to be popping up everywhere these days. There must be something missing these days that compels these kind of behaviors or allows them to grow to such proportions that they self-actualize in this manner.

What are we in fact missing? What did mankind have years ago that held this sort of behavior at bay?

And are we in fact missing something, or is it intentional... or is it possibly a side effect of the sick and twisted agendas that governments are focused on; their lust for money, power, energy and resources and to h#ll with what is good for the well being of the common people.

Sometimes I wonder if these terrorist groups are nothing more than the beginning of unrest within the common people. I wonder if these behaviors are just the cracks in the face of civilization... the actions of the more foolish and brash risk takers out there. I wonder if we will see more groups forming to the point that governments will run out of descriptive words for them.

When I look at who is in government, I see a lot of wealthy, pampered prima donnas who got yanked out of the crotch of some wealthy mother of some wealthy family who has been in the business of politics and business for years and years. These people have about as much in common with you and me as a lion and a lamb.

Yet when I look at these people who are called terrorists, I see a lot of common people who had nothing befoe they began killing and acting like animals. I see a lot of people who had things taken from them... the lives of their loved ones... their land... their hopes and dreams; and usually the takers have been government.

“Man cries, his tears dry up and run out. So he becomes a devil, reduced to a monster.”
― Kohta Hirano

Yes! I know that there are sickos out there who were born simply to kill and to cause upheaval and unrest, but when I look at those kind of people and locate them in the world, I see about as much equal proportion in both "terrorist" groups as I see in governments.

Governments don;t go in shooting. They simply push and push and push until a man has nothing remaining. It is usually the little guy who snaps and begins shooting. It looks bad when the little guy does this, because only a lunatic would shoot and fight the government, right? The government did not begin shooting. How could it be the government, or even corporations who pay the government to bleed a man's life?

In the old days, governments killed because they lost something. Now, it seems, they kill because they want something. God help if the common man has it, lives on it, or needs it. Nah! Forget God helping. That S.O.B. doesn't care as well.

In the lives of us common people, no one can possibly understand what the other guy is going through simply because we place too much trust in government and corporatioon and the media to tell us what happened and why.

We are simply common people. How can we possibly know the truth? We are too busy simply trying to crack out a living day to day, much less have the time to understand why someone across the world did this or that.

And the government? Well, that is their job... to have their nose in the business of everyone else. It is their job to know what everyone else is doing, and why. But, as to whether they care about it, or it meets the means to their end, I can only surmise that the government will never tell us the truth. Why? Because the government is not interested in the common man anymore. We are all just collateral damage for governments and corporations and other wealthy and powerful people.

So, as governments and corporations and the media combine more and more every day to crush the life out of the common man, I suspect that times will change for the worse... what I mean is that more and more common people just like you and me will get fed up with dropped responsibilities and abandoned duties and obkligations that leaderless governments have fomented.

I know that what these people did is bad... shooting down a plane... but I also know that more politicians and government and corporate people are to blame even moreso. Not directly for this one incident, but for everything leading up to not only this, but for the next one and the next one, etc.

This is not about a plane being shot down. This is a sign of the times... a siogn of how times are changing. People are getting fed up, and the common man has nothing to resort to except violence in order to get attention anymore.

Try using the law to change the law. Yeah! Right!

Try organizing and signing petitions to get the things you need from the ones choking the life out of you. Yeah! right!

So, I am not surprised at this.

“I felt the kind of desperation, I think, that cancels the possibility of empathy...that makes you unkind.”
― Sue Miller

Just my thoughts on this...

Edited July 19, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[chooka]

I think Russia definitely has something to hide whilst they leave the victims just laying in the field for days as they scan the site removing evidence and looting. If they had nothing to hide they would allow the assistance of international investigators. I believe they are cleaning up any evidence that will implicate them and the rebels.

Ukraine accuses Russia of helping rebels loot crash site

Rebels backed up by muscular diplomatic support from the Kremlin have shown few signs of being ready to cooperate with an investigation that could blame them for blowing apart the Boeing 777 jet.

International monitors were met on Saturday by Kalashnikov-wielding militias who allowed them access to only the outskirts of the field -- its swaying sunflowers hiding dismembered remains of charred and decomposing bodies of victims whose lives were cut short on Thursday.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/07/20/04/20/ukraine-accuses-russia-rebels-crash-site

[canuckamuck]

Just my thoughts on this...

I agree with a lot of what you said there, although you made no allowance for the terrorism today to be religiously motivated, as much of it is, and some of it state sponsored.

But your feeling that the common man is just a resource to be plundered is true enough, as is the fact that we used to have the character and culture to keep the governments in check.

But all of this fleshed out becomes a conspiracy theory, and we have as a society decided that conspiracies are just crazy talk. So be a good lad and keep it to yourself.

[simple1]

@cup-O-coffee. Interesting post. Unless you have already done so have a read of Mullahs, Merchants & Militants by Stephen Glain ex M.E. reporter for Wall Street Journal, was based in Jordan. Covers underlying issues that are very rarely reported

[hawker9000]

Obama should keep to the touch lines on this, his rhetoric is not that of justice but but politics.

The countries that should be involved are:

1. Malaysia
2. The Netherlands
3. any other country who had nationals on the ill-fated flight.

Personally when it is proved who fired the missile of which I am certain it was the Russian backed rebels. I would hope all countries close their airspace to Russian flights but this is not what Obama wants, he is looking for sanctions that will favour American interests.

An American was on the plane. Dual nationality.

Actually, the nationals of several nations were aboard, so all have a right to participate in any investigation (and to have access to the crash site). Also Ukraine, since it was their territory and airspace.

I can't imagine why someone here is claiming the separatists had no capability to shoot down this flight, since they'd successfully shot down multiple Ukrainian flights in the days prior (50 military pax killed in one of these shootdowns), and MH17's flight level was easily within SA-11 range! There's a video floating around showing an SA-11 launcher leaving the Donetsk area for Russia, with two empty & scorched missile rails...

[oldgit]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

you don't know a lot do you. The plane for a start, was flying on a path used by many others that day. and it had clearance. It was at a height that no run of the mill rocket could down it, except a high tech rocket used by Government Army's. Or sold/ given by Governments. that's the question who gave or sold the rocket.

I know enough to know because that plane flew over a war zone it has been blown up.

We all know where that rocket came from and we all know who fired it so it seems it's you who doesn't know too much, not me.

If you bothered to check airline flight paths, readily on google, you would see thousands of planes diverting the Ukraine especially the west corner because it's a war zone.

It wouldn't have been a war zone, if the west had shown the guts and determination to provide the Kiev government with the weaponry and expertise to quash the Russian backed rebels from the very beginning, rather than pussy footing around with ineffective,limp wristed sanctions against the Russian elite.

Putin didn't let the grass grow under his feet in supplying the the rebels with the weaponry they wanted,did he? Another poignant reminder of Edmund Burke's often used quote "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

[Lite Beer]

Anger grows towards Russia over MH17 crash
Marion THIBAUT and Dmitry ZAKS in Kiev

GRABOVE, Ukraine:-- Outraged world leaders heaped pressure on Russia Sunday to press Moscow-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine to allow investigators proper access to the crash site of the Malaysian MH17 jet.

Rescue efforts were in disarray as armed gunmen in fatigues and balaclavas refused to allow international monitors full access and the grisly remains of some of the 298 passengers killed have yet to be removed.

Ukraine has warned that the rebels, who Kiev and the US have accused of blowing the plane out of the sky with a missile, were "hours away" from removing key evidence across the Russian border.

As fears grew that evidence was being tampered with world leaders voiced their frustration with Moscow, pushing East-West ties to crisis point after months of discord over the Kremlin’s interference in ex-Soviet Ukraine.

US Secretary of State John Kerry told Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov that Washington was "deeply concerned" investigators were denied "proper access" to the crash site for a second consecutive day.

His spokeswoman Jen Psaki later said the "unacceptable" insecurity at the crash site was an "affront to all those who lost loved ones and to the dignity the victims deserve".

"The United States is also very concerned about reports that the remains of some victims and debris from the site are being tampered with or inappropriately removed from the site," the State Department said.

Kerry was backed by leaders from Britain, the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia and France -- as well as Ukraine -- in calling on Russian President Vladimir Putin to intervene in getting an international probe under way.

- ’Absolutely chaotic’ crash site -

===================================

There was growing concern about the whereabouts of some of the bodies which had been removed from the crash site, while others were left lying in field in the rural part of eastern Ukraine where the Boeing 777 jet was brought to ground.

British Prime Minister David Cameron called for tougher European action against Moscow if Putin did not change tack.

"If President Putin does not change his approach on Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change our approach to Russia," he said, writing in the Sunday Times newspaper.

"Russia can use this moment to find a path out of this festering, dangerous crisis. I hope it will do so. But if that does not happen then we must respond robustly,"

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte -- his nation mourning the loss of 192 compatriots -- said he had called on Putin during a "very intense" conversation to "take responsibility" for a credible investigation.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said the crash site was "absolutely chaotic" as he sought to recover 28 bodies of his compatriots killed in the disaster.

"My fear is that Russia will say the right thing, but that on the ground interference with the site, interference with investigators, interference with the dignified treatment of bodies will continue," he said.

International monitors were met on Saturday by Kalashnikov-wielding militias who allowed them access to only the outskirts of the field -- its swaying sunflowers hiding dismembered remains of charred and decomposing bodies of victims whose lives were cut short on Thursday.

The Ukrainian government issued a furious statement declaring that "terrorists with the support of Russia are trying to destroy proof of this international crime".

- Missing black boxes -

=======================

Malaysia’s transport minister expressed alarm before boarding a flight to Kiev over "indications that vital evidence has not been preserved in place".

"One of the crucial questions is the fate of the black boxes," said Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe spokesman Michael Bociurkiw.

The head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, into whose airspace the doomed jet strayed to avoid bad weather, said his men had never recovered the data recorders or tampered with evidence.

The diplomatic wrangling was accompanied by uninterrupted fighting across Ukraine’s eastern rustbelt -- a Russian-speaking region of seven million people who largely view the more nationalistic west of the splintered country with mistrust.

Putin rejects all charges of providing either funding or military support to the insurgents who in April seized towns in the region demanding independence after a pro-Western government took power in Kiev.

Their move came just two weeks after Russia -- stunned by the removal of pro-Kremlin president Viktor Yanukovych, annexed heavily-Russified Crimea.

Ukrainian troops pressed on with an offensive against the rebels, reporting they had taken full control of the main airport of the neighbouring separatist stronghold of Lugansk and launching all-out offensives against two nearby towns.

Government troops said they had also established full control of Donetsk airport for the first time since it was seized at the end of May.

Kiev said the latest clashes killed five soldiers and wounded another 20.

- ’Wake-up call’ -

==================

US President Barack Obama and major world leaders now agree that the Malaysia Airlines jet was blown out of the sky at 33,000 feet (10,000 metres) by a sophisticated surface-to-air missile fired from rebel-controlled territory.

Kiev has gone a step further by accusing militias of using a Russian-supplied Buk system to down the jet after confusing it with a Ukrainian military transporter.

Ukraine has released recordings of what it said was an intercepted call between an insurgent commander and a Russian intelligence officer as they realised they had shot down a passenger jet.

But Putin has blamed the tragedy on Kiev’s three-month military operation.

The plane’s downing came less than a day after the United States unleashed punishing sanctions against some of Russia’s most important energy and military firms -- most of them with links to Putin -- and urged more hesitant European leaders to follow suit.

The European Union -- many of its member states dependent on Russian gas -- took the far less punitive step on Friday of curbing some future investments in Russia and leaving the option open for broader sanctions.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Anger-grows-towards-Russia-over-MH17-crash-30238985.html

-- The Nation 2014-07-20

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[GentlemanJim]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion.

[GentlemanJim]

Well we all know who is to blame . It doesn't matter just who gave the order or pulled the trigger.

But the one who has a 100 % responsability in this matter is Malasian airline.

You do not fly over war zones , civil unrest zone or the "weird " country's and regions.

In all the years flying from SE asia to europe and back have I thought many times : WTH are we flying over this region ?

From the 800 to over a 1000 euro for a ticket , they can sure affort a detour.

Fuel is only a small part of the ticket price. ( Why can Ryanair fly with profit 2000 km for 30 euro - or less- but we have to pay at least 800 for 20.000 km return ticket ?)

Malaysian should be forced to pay a 100 milion THB per life lost. Not the insurance , but the airline itself. Get it from the far overpaid management and the bulk from liquidating their assets : sell their planes and landing rights,...

That should teach the airlines to value life more !

No, we do not know who is to blame.

Yes it DOES matter who gave the order and pulled the trigger.

MAS are not 100% responsible, they are 0% responsible.

I assume you will savage the reputation of one of the worlds airlines that has one of the most stringent attitudes to safety - Lufthansa, who have been flying exactly the same track as MAS until this murderous act (and what about everyone's favourite - Emirates).

The reason low cost airlines are cheaper is airport taxes. That is why they fly from obscure out of the way airfields. Ryaniair do not fly out of Heathrow and if they did the ticket would be a comparable cost to any other airline. Taxes at Heathrow and other major destination airports can easily double the price of a ticket. Go check it out.

The airlines value your life. Flying is THE safest form of transport in the world today and has been for decades.

Edited July 20, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[GentlemanJim]

I was not clear. I don't blame Malasian . Blame rests by a government we are not to critisize on TV , or be deleted.

The responibility however is 100 % malasian airways.

Yes others fly that route , Yes others are flying at this moment over "hostile " regions, but they have the option to not endanger their passengers by opting for a different flight path.

It is utterly amazing that there are no more "accidents" like this.

Bottomline is , you don't fly over risky regions and when sh t happens , they need to pay enoruos amounts , because money and profit is all they understand

I can only summize that the BS stands for male bovine feces.

If aircraft flying from Asia to Europe were to avoid all the 'risky' areas then you would have to fly the other way around the globe and go via the US. Add another 30 hours on to your journey.

The bottom line is you want cheap tickets (as you said in a post before) and do not want airlines to make a profit. Almost every airline going, goes to all the trouble to make a 1% (low cost) up to maybe 7% (scheduled) profit. Do you think that is extreme? I don't know what line of work you are in but I bet your company aims for higher than 7% profit.

Do you think these airlines can just fly around the globe where ever they want? Choosing whatever route they want? Controlled airspace is set up around the world in a series of highways and you cant go off the highways. You need to chose a highway that goes where you want to go. The highway that MH17 took was open for business. You fly over Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran on many occasions when you fly East to West and never even think about it or know about it.

The people 100% responsible here ARE the people that ordered and pulled the trigger.

Edited July 20, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[GentlemanJim]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

you don't know a lot do you. The plane for a start, was flying on a path used by many others that day. and it had clearance. It was at a height that no run of the mill rocket could down it, except a high tech rocket used by Government Army's. Or sold/ given by Governments. that's the question who gave or sold the rocket.

I know enough to know because that plane flew over a war zone it has been blown up.

We all know where that rocket came from and we all know who fired it so it seems it's you who doesn't know too much, not me.

If you bothered to check airline flight paths, readily on google, you would see thousands of planes diverting the Ukraine especially the west corner because it's a war zone.

Maybe you could call Obama and Merkel and let them know that we do not need a full transparent neutral investigation after all as you seem to think we all know who it was and who provided the hard ware. Case closed Sherlock, well done.

[hawker9000]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

you don't know a lot do you. The plane for a start, was flying on a path used by many others that day. and it had clearance. It was at a height that no run of the mill rocket could down it, except a high tech rocket used by Government Army's. Or sold/ given by Governments. that's the question who gave or sold the rocket.

I know enough to know because that plane flew over a war zone it has been blown up.

We all know where that rocket came from and we all know who fired it so it seems it's you who doesn't know too much, not me.

If you bothered to check airline flight paths, readily on google, you would see thousands of planes diverting the Ukraine especially the west corner because it's a war zone.

Maybe you could call Obama and Merkel and let them know that we do not need a full transparent neutral investigation after all as you seem to think we all know who it was and who provided the hard ware. Case closed Sherlock, well done.

Maybe we could call Obama and let him know he should grow a pair, because Putin isn't going to give him the time of day, and knows equally well that western Europe needs their oil & gas too much to so much as squeak...

Yeap, actually we do know who did it. Not letting anyone near the crash site until they've had a chance to "sanitize it" pretty much tells the story.

[krisb]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

you don't know a lot do you. The plane for a start, was flying on a path used by many others that day. and it had clearance. It was at a height that no run of the mill rocket could down it, except a high tech rocket used by Government Army's. Or sold/ given by Governments. that's the question who gave or sold the rocket.

I know enough to know because that plane flew over a war zone it has been blown up.

We all know where that rocket came from and we all know who fired it so it seems it's you who doesn't know too much, not me.

If you bothered to check airline flight paths, readily on google, you would see thousands of planes diverting the Ukraine especially the west corner because it's a war zone.

Maybe you could call Obama and Merkel and let them know that we do not need a full transparent neutral investigation after all as you seem to think we all know who it was and who provided the hard ware. Case closed Sherlock, well done.

The satellite data included an image of a plume of smoke left in the missile's trail that allowed analysts to calculate a launch area near the Russia-Ukraine border which is dominated by pro-Russian separatist fighters, officials said.

Google, not sherlock Jimbo.

You really should get with the programme champ

Thata' boy!

[krisb]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion

Seems no one is of yours either you bitter little man.

Edited July 20, 2014 by krisb

[jpinx]

No-one can claim to be either untouched or innocent. This disaster has catapulted man's inhumanity to man into sharp focus for the whole world. Never mind western versus eastern culture/ethics, all believe in the sanctity of human life and the right to personal dignity in some form or other. Now we see the underbelly of civilisation exhibiting total disregard of normal human behaviour. I might suggest that they are acting like pack animals if it was not an insult to the animals.

This incident has to rank down there with the rest of the war-crimes whose perpetrators continue to be pursued even, in some cases, after more than 60 years, and yet here we are, presented with the same gross behaviour which ensures that man will never reach a genuinely civilised state.

We are all to blame for not promoting simple good-neighbourliness, as Thailand has recently started to promote this concept to try to overcome the polarisation of the population, and it looks like that same process needs to be applied a lot more widely.....

Maybe a good place to start would be to post less antagonistically in here..........

[neverdie]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

you don't know a lot do you. The plane for a start, was flying on a path used by many others that day. and it had clearance. It was at a height that no run of the mill rocket could down it, except a high tech rocket used by Government Army's. Or sold/ given by Governments. that's the question who gave or sold the rocket.

I know enough to know because that plane flew over a war zone it has been blown up.

We all know where that rocket came from and we all know who fired it so it seems it's you who doesn't know too much, not me.

If you bothered to check airline flight paths, readily on google, you would see thousands of planes diverting the Ukraine especially the west corner because it's a war zone.

Maybe you could call Obama and Merkel and let them know that we do not need a full transparent neutral investigation after all as you seem to think we all know who it was and who provided the hard ware. Case closed Sherlock, well done.

Maybe we could call Obama and let him know he should grow a pair, because Putin isn't going to give him the time of day, and knows equally well that western Europe needs their oil & gas too much to so much as squeak...

Yeap, actually we do know who did it. Not letting anyone near the crash site until they've had a chance to "sanitize it" pretty much tells the story.

Here we have a case that needs to be 'moved on' yet there seems to be little movement, a complete reversal of this situation which resulted all sorts of fancy smoke screens were constructed so action could be justified.

Criminals are running countries, corrupt evil criminals who are only motivated by matters that relate to the creation of wealth. Citizens are being screwed by their own representative & nobody seems to have their eye on that ball.

PEOPLE lets not let the people of MH17 die in vein, your leaders need to be held to account, it's long overdue!

[billybatson]

The Russian response has been embarassing, hiding behind cold war politics. But all the politicians in the East and West are to blame for creating and encouraging the atmosphere of fear and mistrust that puts the future of mankind at risk.

I also notice there's been an escalation in Israel's military activity while the world's attention is drawn to Ukraine. No coincidence, IMO., more like shameful opportunism.

[GentlemanJim]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion

Seems no one is of yours either you bitter little man.

Ouch! Was that a personal attack krisb?

[metisdead]

Off topic conspiratorial nonsense posts have been removed.

[lostsoul49]

Ukraine has much more to gain from this than anyone and seems as though everyone is playing into their plans like clockwork.

Not conspiracy theory.... Just logic, the same logic being used by all those nations against Russia.

[transam]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion.

I am, and am sure the families of those lost are too, even if they are not important folk......

[Stan7444]

Why was MH17 flying over near/over a war zone?

The management/owners of Malay Airlines are responsible for putting the passengers/crew in danger. Whilst they are not guilty of actually destroying the plane, just like they were not responsible directly for MH370, the level of incompetence and arrogance of the owners/management is unbelievable for NOT rerouting their flights. It is time to shut these cowboy airlines down.

Not just Malaysian Airlines but Thai, Virgin, KL and many other carriers have up to last Thursday with the downing of MH17 been overflying this same war zone, in spite of 3 other Ukrainian aircraft having been downed by the Russians just this past week. The FAA told all US carriers months ago to avoid this airspace, but apparently many other carriers ignored such warnings.

Heard today on the news from US intelligence and military sources that the Russians had to be the ones who launched this missile, from within Ukrainian airspace, since it takes min. 2 years of training to use this particular Russian ground to air launcher, along with requiring some technical maintenance staff who know how to align the radar and other electronic equipment once the launcher reaches a launch destination. This is required since during the movement of the launcher, all of the sensitive electronics gets bounced around a lot.

Ukrainian separatists could not possibly launch this missile without a Russian trained military person having been there pushing the button. Intelligence sources said they had apparently used the launcher radar only and not the transponder, which would have determined it was a commercial and not military transporter flight.

Big mistake made by Russians on the ground but Putin will not admit this terrible mistake and wants to blame everyone else instead of taking the responsibility, which would not sit well with his Russian support base he has built up with 80% of the population. This will hopefully be a game changer and wake up call to the EU so they will finally sign up to the level of sanctions needed against the Russian banking and O&G sectors of their economy to make them realize this aggression must stop against their neighboring countries. This would be the ONLY bright spot potentially coming out of this tragedy. Putin let lose the lions of war and now he needs to put them back into their cages.

[GentlemanJim]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion.

I am, and am sure the families of those lost are too, even if they are not important folk......

What the families of those lost are interested in krisb's opinion? Who said they were not important? MAS is to blame pffft!

[NanLaew]

This is NOT a jibe at the Americans in general or at POTUS in particular. But based on the lines that he had Kerry draw in the sand for Assad regards Syrian chemical weapons that got summarily walked over, what does it take to get the White House a bit more focused on what is happening in Eastern Europe? For sure it is primarily as European problem but we are not blessed (yet) with a United States of Europe. Despite themselves, Merkel, Cameron and (just possibly) Hollande need someone to lead.

The festering hatred and inhumanity in the middle east was broadly someone else's problem until 9-11. After that, someone paid attention (although their focus was way, way off).

Now imagine if MH17 had 193 Americans onboard and not just 1 dual-citizen.

Or,

Imagine if the Dutch had the same military clout as the US?