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Posted

 

 

 Palestinian Arab sources said Tuesday that Gaza residents attacked Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri Saturday evening, near the Shifa Hospital.[/size]
 
The residents blamed Hamas for the death of family members and for destruction of their homes.


They got that right. Maybe their is hope for voting Hamas out. thumbsup.gif

 

 

That would be Israel's worst nightmare....no bogeyman, and having to seriously talk peace and make concessions with PA

 

 

what crap.
 

  • Like 2
Posted

 

 

 Palestinian Arab sources said Tuesday that Gaza residents attacked Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri Saturday evening, near the Shifa Hospital.[/size]
 
The residents blamed Hamas for the death of family members and for destruction of their homes.


They got that right. Maybe their is hope for voting Hamas out. thumbsup.gif

 

 

That would be Israel's worst nightmare....no bogeyman, and having to seriously talk peace and make concessions with PA

 

 

It's more than plausible that when Israel started its most recent war, one of its primary motivations was to avoid negotiations with a unity government. 

 

  • Like 1
Posted

 

 

 

 Palestinian Arab sources said Tuesday that Gaza residents attacked Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri Saturday evening, near the Shifa Hospital.[/size]
 
The residents blamed Hamas for the death of family members and for destruction of their homes.


They got that right. Maybe their is hope for voting Hamas out. thumbsup.gif

 

 

That would be Israel's worst nightmare....no bogeyman, and having to seriously talk peace and make concessions with PA

 

 

It's more than plausible that when Israel started its most recent war, one of its primary motivations was to avoid negotiations with a unity government. 

 

 

A unity government in name only. In reality there was still a gap between the two factions. They would never have agreed to move forward as one united government. Can you imagine Abbas inviting hamas to stand for elections in the west bank. Abbas would no longer be the leader of the PA. was nevr going to happen.  

 

  • Like 2
Posted

 

 

 

 Palestinian Arab sources said Tuesday that Gaza residents attacked Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri Saturday evening, near the Shifa Hospital.[/size]
 
The residents blamed Hamas for the death of family members and for destruction of their homes.


They got that right. Maybe their is hope for voting Hamas out. thumbsup.gif

 

 

That would be Israel's worst nightmare....no bogeyman, and having to seriously talk peace and make concessions with PA

 

 

It's more than plausible that when Israel started its most recent war, one of its primary motivations was to avoid negotiations with a unity government. 

 

 

 

Actually, letting the reconciliation process go ahead and then refusing to deal with a government made in whole, or part,

of Hamas would serve Israel better if this was the ploy. The PA, no matter which political movement holds the reins, is

obligated to accept Israel's right to exist and follow the path of compromise. Israel is under no obligation to deal with

Hamas as long as it holds on to its ideology.

 

The reconciliation process hit an obstacle which did not have much to do with Israel, but with Palestinian domestic politics.

Basically, the Hamas faced an economic crisis, and the PA tried to leverage this into political gains, which the Hamas then

resisted. The Palestinians do have a vibrant and nasty domestic politics scene same as most societies and countries, fact.

To say all of their actions and all events concerned with their internal power plays are manipulated by Israel is a far cry from

having a clue.
 

  • Like 2
Posted

Of course Fatah and Hamas have their own political maneuverings, but they had joined into a unity government recently. For the first time in years Israel had the opportunity to find both of the main Palestinian political groups largely speaking with one voice. And with Fatah - the more peaceful one - being the senior partner. What a wonderful opportunity to advance peace! So what did Netanyahu and the Israeli government do? Played on the fears over the murders of teenagers to start a war in Gaza that has led to the deaths of over 400 children. Radicalised a whole new generation and cemented the distrust and dislike of all things Israeli by older citizens.

 

The behaviour of Israeli leaders clearly indicates that they do not want peace. Netanyahu's lies about the responsibility for the deaths of the 3 Jewish boys shows he has no scruples. He wanted an excuse, a justification, for a war. He and his far-right cronies (such as Lieberman) have obstructed and delayed various peace initiatives for years, so that they can continue stealing land. A final peace agreement would mean the end of Israel's agenda of adding the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the state of Israel. There are many Israelis who would rather keep the war - and deaths - going to than to finally accept less than the borders promised them by their ancient texts.

 

 

Posted

In the meantime, it is good to see much of the world condemning Israel's actions. Israel was not defending its borders - it was defending its subjugation of Palestinian people. Israel has apparently destroyed many streets and apartment blocks that had nothing to do with tunnels - aside from shelling UN safe schools. Good to see UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon avoid the wishy-washy USA position. He condemned the attack on the Gaza school on Sunday as a "moral outrage and a criminal act" and demanded those responsible for the "gross violation of international humanitarian law" be held accountable.

 

I won't hold my breath. Accountable? Israel?

  • Like 2
Posted

Of course Fatah and Hamas have their own political maneuverings, but they had joined into a unity government recently. For the first time in years Israel had the opportunity to find both of the main Palestinian political groups largely speaking with one voice. And with Fatah - the more peaceful one - being the senior partner. What a wonderful opportunity to advance peace! So what did Netanyahu and the Israeli government do? Played on the fears over the murders of teenagers to start a war in Gaza that has led to the deaths of over 400 children. Radicalised a whole new generation and cemented the distrust and dislike of all things Israeli by older citizens.

 

The behaviour of Israeli leaders clearly indicates that they do not want peace. Netanyahu's lies about the responsibility for the deaths of the 3 Jewish boys shows he has no scruples. He wanted an excuse, a justification, for a war. He and his far-right cronies (such as Lieberman) have obstructed and delayed various peace initiatives for years, so that they can continue stealing land. A final peace agreement would mean the end of Israel's agenda of adding the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the state of Israel. There are many Israelis who would rather keep the war - and deaths - going to than to finally accept less than the borders promised them by their ancient texts.

 

 

 

They did not quite join into anything yet, even if you go on posting it as fact.

They do not speak as one voice at all, even if you claim this over and over again.

The supposed seniority of Fatah is highly disputed, and elections, were they indeed to be held, may prove otherwise.

 

Ignoring that Hamas (as well as Islamic Jihad) did not, in fact, agree to drop the armed struggle, or to relinquish control

of his military wing and weapons over to the PA, might be seen as a problem when wanting to portray this reconciliation

effort as being a move to advance peace.

 

While I share a lot of the criticism you express toward Israel's right wing, the notion of making the West Bank officially a

part of Israel is a rather complicated issue to deal with, even for right wingers, and is not necessarily the position most

advocated by all of them. Not that they have a very creative idea of how to go about it. What I do reject is the implication

that the Palestinian side is up and ready for negotiation and compromise, that refers not only to Hamas (which clearly

holds different ideas), but also to the current Fatah leadership of the PA.

 

As for Hamas connection to the kidnapping and murder of the three Israelis - the kidnappers were Hamas affiliated, and

there's no much dispute over that. The issue was more to do with Hamas leadership involvement. There were reports

on this earlier, but as it is now presented as court evidence, might be more acceptable for discussion than previously:

 

 

Hamas in Gaza funded June kidnap and murder of three teens, Israel says
 

The state said Wednesday that Hamas operatives in Gaza funded the June kidnapping and murder of three teens in the West Bank, the event that led up to Israel’s four-week Gaza offensive.

 

The funding aspect was revealed in a reply to a petition against the demolition of the homes of the three men suspected of the kidnapping and murder.

 

The state named Hussam Qawasmeh as the leader of the cell; the Shin Bet security service had previously suspected that Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh were the leaders. Last month, the police’s counterterrorism unit arrested Hussam Qawasmeh at the home of relatives in the Shoafat refugee camp in East Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609167
 

  • Like 1
Posted

In the meantime, it is good to see much of the world condemning Israel's actions. Israel was not defending its borders - it was defending its subjugation of Palestinian people. Israel has apparently destroyed many streets and apartment blocks that had nothing to do with tunnels - aside from shelling UN safe schools. Good to see UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon avoid the wishy-washy USA position. He condemned the attack on the Gaza school on Sunday as a "moral outrage and a criminal act" and demanded those responsible for the "gross violation of international humanitarian law" be held accountable.

 

I won't hold my breath. Accountable? Israel?

 

I should think that if there was an investigation initiated by the Secretary General, rather than the UNHRC it would probably

be harder for Israel to ignore, especially if this focuses on specific instances related to targeting UN facilities. That said, it is

also interesting to see if there will be similar investigations into how come other UN facilities came to serve as storage place

for weapons.

 

Israeli media is quite busy with the impeding legal and investigative issues. Seems that most relevant legal voices seem to

say that while Hamas certainly committed violations, this by itself does not get Israel of the hook in all cases. The decision

of how Israel deal with these issues is essentially political, however.

Posted

The Dead

The 67 Israelis who died in the war were soldiers. They chose to fight - or at least accepted the role of "fighter". So, nearly 100% of those dying in the course of invading Gaza were soldiers.

 

Estimates vary of the numbers of Gazans, and proportions of civilians killed by Israeli tanks, artillery, drones, missiles bombs and bullets. But conservative estimates indicate that over 400 children were killed. The UN estimates 72% of those killed were civilians (some human rights groups claim more than 80% were civilians).

The Damage

"...Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system appears to have nullified (rockets); Hamas rockets did virtually no damage".

A claim by Thomas Friedman in the International NY TImes today.

So, virtually no property damage to Israel.

Despite Israel's claims at the beginning of the war that it was after "military targets" in Gaza, we find:

- Over 25% of health facilities (hospitals, clinics) have been destroyed.

- Whole suburbs have been trashed.

- Apartment blocks have been trashed (shades of the "collective punishment" Israel inflicts on Palestinians in the West Bank).

- Roads that had no connection to areas with tunnels were destroyed.

- Schools were destroyed (along with children, women and other civilians who had sought shelter in these UN identified "safe places".

- Essential infrastructure - power generation, water pipelines, sewerage systems, have been destroyed.

 

No, this hollow victory is not because the Israeli Defence Force consists of brave and well trained soldiers. It is not another Entebbe. It is a massacre of civilians through the use of high tech weaponry. Drones, F16s, tanks, artillery, naval guns, satellites vs rockets that "did virtually no damage".

 

There was no war. It was a slaughter by a much greater military power of a disorganised, small group of poorly armed men. Probably radicalised by the previous assaults on Gaza. Hamas will find it much easier to find new soldiers now. I can sympathise with the young man who decides to join Hamas' military wing after seeing his children killed in a UN "safe haven". His home destroyed. Israeli's don't seem to understand this outcome and it's ramifications - or just don't care.

 

The buffer zone between Israel and the Arab world that a moderate Palestine could have provided has been trashed as well. It's very hard to believe that Israel wants anything other than to steal more Palestinian land. No other explanation fits Israel's consistent undermining of any fragile developments toward peace.

 

  • Like 1
Posted

Again, no country in the world would allow thousands of rockets to be shot at them, no matter how good they were at stopping them. ALL the blame belongs to the terrorists who were shooting them.

Yes even Obama clearly stated that yesterday.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app
  • Like 2
Posted

 

Nothing to do with 3,000 rockets. giggle.gif


How many missiles were fabricated by Israel for 7 billion USD ?
At least 20 countries were involved in the purchase.

Bringing up this fact I hope that you won't qualify me as an anti-semitist.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.567693




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

You are missing the point, having the missiles isn't the problem, shooting them unprovoked as Hamas does, is a problem.

Posted

The Dead

The 67 Israelis who died in the war were soldiers. They chose to fight - or at least accepted the role of "fighter". So, nearly 100% of those dying in the course of invading Gaza were soldiers.

 

Estimates vary of the numbers of Gazans, and proportions of civilians killed by Israeli tanks, artillery, drones, missiles bombs and bullets. But conservative estimates indicate that over 400 children were killed. The UN estimates 72% of those killed were civilians (some human rights groups claim more than 80% were civilians).

The Damage

"...Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system appears to have nullified (rockets); Hamas rockets did virtually no damage".

A claim by Thomas Friedman in the International NY TImes today.

So, virtually no property damage to Israel.

Despite Israel's claims at the beginning of the war that it was after "military targets" in Gaza, we find:

- Over 25% of health facilities (hospitals, clinics) have been destroyed.

- Whole suburbs have been trashed.

- Apartment blocks have been trashed (shades of the "collective punishment" Israel inflicts on Palestinians in the West Bank).

- Roads that had no connection to areas with tunnels were destroyed.

- Schools were destroyed (along with children, women and other civilians who had sought shelter in these UN identified "safe places".

- Essential infrastructure - power generation, water pipelines, sewerage systems, have been destroyed.

 

No, this hollow victory is not because the Israeli Defence Force consists of brave and well trained soldiers. It is not another Entebbe. It is a massacre of civilians through the use of high tech weaponry. Drones, F16s, tanks, artillery, naval guns, satellites vs rockets that "did virtually no damage".

 

There was no war. It was a slaughter by a much greater military power of a disorganised, small group of poorly armed men. Probably radicalised by the previous assaults on Gaza. Hamas will find it much easier to find new soldiers now. I can sympathise with the young man who decides to join Hamas' military wing after seeing his children killed in a UN "safe haven". His home destroyed. Israeli's don't seem to understand this outcome and it's ramifications - or just don't care.

 

The buffer zone between Israel and the Arab world that a moderate Palestine could have provided has been trashed as well. It's very hard to believe that Israel wants anything other than to steal more Palestinian land. No other explanation fits Israel's consistent undermining of any fragile developments toward peace.

 

 

They already had control of that land, several times, no need to steal it. If I were a Palestinian, I would be pissed for Hamas getting them into this mess. If the Israeli army has kicked several organized, well funded and armed, armies of their neighbors, what did they think would happen when a ragtag group tries to do something. Hamas brought it on it's self, I hope they get wiped out, without too many more innocents being injured by their stupidity. Somehow, I think most Hamas apologist are people who probably never lived in the Middle East, certainly for no length of time.

  • Like 1
Posted

What did he say now that it is PROVEN that Hamas DOES use human shields and launches rockets from civilian areas, even near hospitals and U.N. schools. What does Hamas do to Arabs there not happy about that? Allow protest, do they? No, they murder their OWN people. 

 

Under international law human shields are defined as someone forcibly used to directly assist in military operations. Children asleep in a UN refugee center clearly do not fall into this category.

 

Even if a Hamas fighter were firing from a civilian area, it is illegal under international law to endanger civilian structures and lives. If you can't get a clean shot that does not endanger civilians, you can't do it.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/what-not-target-israel-201472915346949642.html

  • Like 1
Posted

Again, no country in the world would allow thousands of rockets to be shot at them, no matter how good they were at stopping them. ALL the blame belongs to the terrorists who were shooting them.

 

Gazan citizens should be under the guardianship of Israel the occupying power..who controls its land, sea and air borders.

Posted

 

The Dead

The 67 Israelis who died in the war were soldiers. They chose to fight - or at least accepted the role of "fighter". So, nearly 100% of those dying in the course of invading Gaza were soldiers.

 

Estimates vary of the numbers of Gazans, and proportions of civilians killed by Israeli tanks, artillery, drones, missiles bombs and bullets. But conservative estimates indicate that over 400 children were killed. The UN estimates 72% of those killed were civilians (some human rights groups claim more than 80% were civilians).

The Damage

"...Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system appears to have nullified (rockets); Hamas rockets did virtually no damage".

A claim by Thomas Friedman in the International NY TImes today.

So, virtually no property damage to Israel.

Despite Israel's claims at the beginning of the war that it was after "military targets" in Gaza, we find:

- Over 25% of health facilities (hospitals, clinics) have been destroyed.

- Whole suburbs have been trashed.

- Apartment blocks have been trashed (shades of the "collective punishment" Israel inflicts on Palestinians in the West Bank).

- Roads that had no connection to areas with tunnels were destroyed.

- Schools were destroyed (along with children, women and other civilians who had sought shelter in these UN identified "safe places".

- Essential infrastructure - power generation, water pipelines, sewerage systems, have been destroyed.

 

No, this hollow victory is not because the Israeli Defence Force consists of brave and well trained soldiers. It is not another Entebbe. It is a massacre of civilians through the use of high tech weaponry. Drones, F16s, tanks, artillery, naval guns, satellites vs rockets that "did virtually no damage".

 

There was no war. It was a slaughter by a much greater military power of a disorganised, small group of poorly armed men. Probably radicalised by the previous assaults on Gaza. Hamas will find it much easier to find new soldiers now. I can sympathise with the young man who decides to join Hamas' military wing after seeing his children killed in a UN "safe haven". His home destroyed. Israeli's don't seem to understand this outcome and it's ramifications - or just don't care.

 

The buffer zone between Israel and the Arab world that a moderate Palestine could have provided has been trashed as well. It's very hard to believe that Israel wants anything other than to steal more Palestinian land. No other explanation fits Israel's consistent undermining of any fragile developments toward peace.

 

 

They already had control of that land, several times, no need to steal it. If I were a Palestinian, I would be pissed for Hamas getting them into this mess. If the Israeli army has kicked several organized, well funded and armed, armies of their neighbors, what did they think would happen when a ragtag group tries to do something. Hamas brought it on it's self, I hope they get wiped out, without too many more innocents being injured by their stupidity. Somehow, I think most Hamas apologist are people who probably never lived in the Middle East, certainly for no length of time.

 

 

If your country were occupied by an enemy army, would you roll over and surrender or resist?

  • Like 1
Posted

 

Again, no country in the world would allow thousands of rockets to be shot at them, no matter how good they were at stopping them. ALL the blame belongs to the terrorists who were shooting them.

Yes even Obama clearly stated that yesterday.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Obama has no role in this.  

 

He's a laughing stock among world leaders.

 

Completely, and utterly, powerless.  

  • Like 1
Posted

 

 

Nothing to do with 3,000 rockets. giggle.gif


How many missiles were fabricated by Israel for 7 billion USD ?
At least 20 countries were involved in the purchase.

Bringing up this fact I hope that you won't qualify me as an anti-semitist.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.567693




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

You are missing the point, having the missiles isn't the problem, shooting them unprovoked as Hamas does, is a problem.

 

 

UG is trying to muddy the waters again, confusing the timeline

 

In the 3 weeks prior to Operation Brothers Keeper the rockets had reduced to a trickle of one per week that all fell harmlessly..

 

Read the facts yourself at 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

 

It seems a very strange time indeed for Israel to launch a major provocative operation against Hamas when they had virtually already achieved their objective of stopping the rockets.  What a wonderful time that period of detente would have been to send a delegation for indirect talks with Hamas to stop the rockets completely in return for a gradual easing of the blockade.

 

UG would have us believe that the Israeli cabinet meeting on 13th June went something like this..

 

Netanyahu: How many rockets have fallen these last 3 weeks

Intelligence Officer: 3 sir, one a week.

Netanyahu: Any damage or casualties?

Intelligence Officer: None, sir.

Netanyahu: Right I think that justifies an invasion of Gaza, and the murder of over 400 innocent children and the sacrifice of 67 Israeli lives. 

 

I have a feeling Netanyahu had other motives.

  • Like 1
Posted

Netanhayu was on a revenge mission re the teenagers that were murdered by those psychopaths.  

 

  

 

Nope. Netanyahu was on attack mission re the Hamas psychopath terrorists firing rockets at innocent Israeli civilians.

Posted

 

 

The Dead

The 67 Israelis who died in the war were soldiers. They chose to fight - or at least accepted the role of "fighter". So, nearly 100% of those dying in the course of invading Gaza were soldiers.

 

Estimates vary of the numbers of Gazans, and proportions of civilians killed by Israeli tanks, artillery, drones, missiles bombs and bullets. But conservative estimates indicate that over 400 children were killed. The UN estimates 72% of those killed were civilians (some human rights groups claim more than 80% were civilians).

The Damage

"...Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system appears to have nullified (rockets); Hamas rockets did virtually no damage".

A claim by Thomas Friedman in the International NY TImes today.

So, virtually no property damage to Israel.

Despite Israel's claims at the beginning of the war that it was after "military targets" in Gaza, we find:

- Over 25% of health facilities (hospitals, clinics) have been destroyed.

- Whole suburbs have been trashed.

- Apartment blocks have been trashed (shades of the "collective punishment" Israel inflicts on Palestinians in the West Bank).

- Roads that had no connection to areas with tunnels were destroyed.

- Schools were destroyed (along with children, women and other civilians who had sought shelter in these UN identified "safe places".

- Essential infrastructure - power generation, water pipelines, sewerage systems, have been destroyed.

 

No, this hollow victory is not because the Israeli Defence Force consists of brave and well trained soldiers. It is not another Entebbe. It is a massacre of civilians through the use of high tech weaponry. Drones, F16s, tanks, artillery, naval guns, satellites vs rockets that "did virtually no damage".

 

There was no war. It was a slaughter by a much greater military power of a disorganised, small group of poorly armed men. Probably radicalised by the previous assaults on Gaza. Hamas will find it much easier to find new soldiers now. I can sympathise with the young man who decides to join Hamas' military wing after seeing his children killed in a UN "safe haven". His home destroyed. Israeli's don't seem to understand this outcome and it's ramifications - or just don't care.

 

The buffer zone between Israel and the Arab world that a moderate Palestine could have provided has been trashed as well. It's very hard to believe that Israel wants anything other than to steal more Palestinian land. No other explanation fits Israel's consistent undermining of any fragile developments toward peace.

 

 

They already had control of that land, several times, no need to steal it. If I were a Palestinian, I would be pissed for Hamas getting them into this mess. If the Israeli army has kicked several organized, well funded and armed, armies of their neighbors, what did they think would happen when a ragtag group tries to do something. Hamas brought it on it's self, I hope they get wiped out, without too many more innocents being injured by their stupidity. Somehow, I think most Hamas apologist are people who probably never lived in the Middle East, certainly for no length of time.

 

 

If your country were occupied by an enemy army, would you roll over and surrender or resist?

 

 

1) Gaza is not occupied since 2005.

2) The "Palestinian lands" are not a country, yet (they have never been before Israel was in charge on them either)

3) In any case, if my land was occupied, I would negotiate to get it back or get properly compensated for it. I would use all possible legal ways and international organizations to get it back. I wouldn't go around killing innocent people to get it.

Posted

 

Netanhayu was on a revenge mission re the teenagers that were murdered by those psychopaths.  

 

  

 

Nope. Netanyahu was on attack mission re the Hamas psychopath terrorists firing rockets at innocent Israeli civilians.

 

 

BS - 

 

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave

When first we practise to deceive!"   

 

This is a revenge mission - pure and simple.  

Posted

 

What did he say now that it is PROVEN that Hamas DOES use human shields and launches rockets from civilian areas, even near hospitals and U.N. schools. What does Hamas do to Arabs there not happy about that? Allow protest, do they? No, they murder their OWN people. 

 

Under international law human shields are defined as someone forcibly used to directly assist in military operations. Children asleep in a UN refugee center clearly do not fall into this category.

 

Even if a Hamas fighter were firing from a civilian area, it is illegal under international law to endanger civilian structures and lives. If you can't get a clean shot that does not endanger civilians, you can't do it.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/what-not-target-israel-201472915346949642.html

 

 

From your link:

To be clear, the use of civilians as human shields is prohibited under international law and involves forcing civilians to directly assist in military operations or using them to shield a military object or troops from attack

Posted

 

 

Netanhayu was on a revenge mission re the teenagers that were murdered by those psychopaths.  

 

  

 

Nope. Netanyahu was on attack mission re the Hamas psychopath terrorists firing rockets at innocent Israeli civilians.

 

 

BS - 

 

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave

When first we practise to deceive!"   

 

This is a revenge mission - pure and simple.  

 

 

BS -

This is a self defense mission - pure and simple.

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