Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[tombkk]

Some interesting information when changing jobs while the application for PR is still pending:

When I changed my job a few years ago, I was asked to submit a letter saying so, and attach the new company's Company Registration and map, and a copy of the new work permit.

I just changed jobs again, and tried to hand in these documents today. They didn't even accept them, saying that it is irrelevant that I changed jobs. Only if I change residential address should I inform them, as they will need to know how to contact me.

For your info. I'm class of 2006, if that matters.

[tombkk]

Clarification: I renewed visa extension and work permit first, then went to Cheang Wattana to get the "residence" stamp a week later. Both were for a year.

Is it not mandatory to go and get the "residence" stamp too? I thought it was

No, I don't think it's mandatory. I have a three-year gap... But they appreciate it if you do it, and it's free.

[Arkady]

Well 2010 came and went without the Interior Minister exercising his statutory right to announce a quota for immigration by nationality in the Royal Gazette. There is no legal obligation for the minister to set a quota and hopeful immigrants were eventually able to figure out that the quota for 2010 was zero by default. However, this represents a new departure as it was the first year since the current 1979 Immigration Act was promulgated (and probably since the quotas were introduced in 1952) that no quota has been set and consequently no applications accepted. Thailand has every right to set its immigration policies as it sees fit but one would think it would be preferable to have a more modern and transparent system, not to mention more courteous to would be immigrants to announce key policy changes in advance. It would also have saved a lot of time, expense and wasted paper, if potential applicants had known they wouldn't need to produce all those kilogrammes of notarized documents.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Arkady

[THAIJAMES]

Well 2010 came and went without the Interior Minister exercising his statutory right to announce a quota for immigration by nationality in the Royal Gazette. There is no legal obligation for the minister to set a quota and hopeful immigrants were eventually able to figure out that the quota for 2010 was zero by default. However, this represents a new departure as it was the first year since the current 1979 Immigration Act was promulgated (and probably since the quotas were introduced in 1952) that no quota has been set and consequently no applications accepted. Thailand has every right to set its immigration policies as it sees fit but one would think it would be preferable to have a more modern and transparent system, not to mention more courteous to would be immigrants to announce key policy changes in advance. It would also have saved a lot of time, expense and wasted paper, if potential applicants had known they wouldn't need to produce all those kilogrammes of notarized documents.

the real question is did anyone apply for a PR this year or were they accepting applications?

[lopburi3]

However, this represents a new departure as it was the first year since the current 1979 Immigration Act was promulgated (and probably since the quotas were introduced in 1952) that no quota has been set and consequently no applications accepted.

Believe your quote has the answer (above) - there was no application period last year.

[p1pp0]

I think the reason you got 12 months is because you are doing your yearly renewal application and submitting all the required papers just like you would be if you were not applying for PR. Therefore you would be given 12 months as usual. (And the reason why you had to come back after one month to hear the results) Most of us are no longer submitting any paperwork and just go there to get the stamp. And I think this is the reason we only get 6 months.

Personally, I am extremely happy not to have to submit all the paperwork and all the work it requires and since you have to go there twice anyways to hear the results, I think that the 6 months option is better as it lets you keep in touch with them about what is happening.

I went this morning to get what I expected would be a 6-mont extension of stay stamp, but the story turned out to be a bit different than expected. According to the staff there (room D2), they will not issue an extension of stay based on residence if I have a pre-existing extension of stay for work reasons. They will stamp the passport, but this will be valid until the expiration of the existing extension of stay (July 31 in my case) and will be cancelled when my job-related EoS is cancelled (next week). A proper 6-month extension of stay will be issued only after my other EoS has been cancelled. They also reminded me that I will be fined 500 THB per day if I do not request a new extension of stay immediately after the previous one is cancelled.

If you're interested, I attach a scan of the stamp.

[tombkk]

I went this morning to get what I expected would be a 6-mont extension of stay stamp, but the story turned out to be a bit different than expected. According to the staff there (room D2), they will not issue an extension of stay based on residence if I have a pre-existing extension of stay for work reasons. They will stamp the passport, but this will be valid until the expiration of the existing extension of stay (July 31 in my case) and will be cancelled when my job-related EoS is cancelled (next week). A proper 6-month extension of stay will be issued only after my other EoS has been cancelled. They also reminded me that I will be fined 500 THB per day if I do not request a new extension of stay immediately after the previous one is cancelled.

If you're interested, I attach a scan of the stamp.

Yep, I can confirm that the EoS by the PR department will only follow the EoS of the immigration which determines the stay based n work permit.

Only if you have no other EoS will they step in and issued a stamp for you.

Nor a problem really, if you know about it in advance. But you do save the THB 1,900 for extension of stay, if don't don't apply for the new WP on the same day your current visa is cancelled.

[Arkady]

The real question is did anyone apply for a PR this year or were they accepting applications?

How could any one have applied in 2010, if no quota for immigration was set by the minister, as required by the Immigration Act?

[SAMCHAROEN]

Any news for 2006-2009 batch?

[Mario2008]

A while a go I read about a person having to apply for PR all over again because he didn't arrive back in Thailand within 1 year and subsequently lost his PR.

The Immigration Act says this:

Section 51 : Any alien who has formerly resided in the Kingdom but has no document of departure for return or has a document of departure for return, but has not returned to the Kingdom in reference to the time prescribed in Section 48 and the alien wishes to take up residence in the Kingdom again , he must submit an application in accordance with the procedure as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations for consideration and approval. When the Immigration Commission considers that the alien has reason and proper excuse and he is not excluded from entry under Section 12 and Section 44 , the alien may be permitted to enter to take up residence in the Kingdom under the concurrence of the Minister, but

the alien has to receive a new Residence Certificate. The provision of Section 45 Para.2 shall be applied Mutatis Mutandis while waiting for permission.

The provisions in Section 12 (1) concerning visa , (2),(3) and (9)

shall not apply with the case as provided in the first paragraph of this section.

The applicant must pay fees as prescribed in the Ministerial

Regulations.

Edit:

12 and 44 are peron against who there are no objections (health/has no money/danger etc)

48: return within one year

45 Para 2 extension of stay till decision on new PR.

[Arkady]

It not in any way comparable but I spotted some statistics from Singapore in a news article. In 2009 Singapore granted 59,500 PRs, down from 79,200 in 2008 and 19,900 citizenships, down from 20,500 in 2008. Looks like they are putting on a squeeze!

[THAIJAMES]

It not in any way comparable but I spotted some statistics from Singapore in a news article. In 2009 Singapore granted 59,500 PRs, down from 79,200 in 2008 and 19,900 citizenships, down from 20,500 in 2008. Looks like they are putting on a squeeze!

Based on a population of 5 million Singapore residents, this means that Thailand should be giving 700,000 PR per year and 240k citizenships. How many have been given out last year in Thailand again?

Well at least Thailand is not putting on a squeeze, the numbers have stayed consistent for the past few years.

After all how can you squeeze Zero.

Edited January 16, 2011 by THAIJAMES

[Arkady]

Based on a population of 5 million Singapore residents, this means that Thailand should be giving 700,000 PR per year and 240k citizenships. How many have been given out last year in Thailand again?

I think the number last year was 7 PRs, unless the lucky 7 with the high level connections from the 2006 to 2007 classes were approved in late 2009. For citizenship by naturalization or through marriage to a Thai husband the number was 152 in 2010 and there were 1,100 granted from 2005 to 2010 inclusive. These numbers exclude naturalization of stateless persons living in Thailand who tend to get approved in large blocs by province from time to time. Only a small percentage of those acquiring citizenshp through naturalization or marriage are farangs, probably 5-10%. The same historically applied to PR when the process still functioned normally.

[camerata]

I wonder if I was out of the country more than a year and lost my PR... would they even let me reapply for it now they aren't approving any new ones?

[tombkk]

I wonder if I was out of the country more than a year and lost my PR... would they even let me reapply for it now they aren't approving any new ones?

As you are the guru over here, I guess this is a trick question?

My guess would be that you'd be allowed to reapply.

[Arkady]

I wonder if I was out of the country more than a year and lost my PR... would they even let me reapply for it now they aren't approving any new ones?

As you are the guru over here, I guess this is a trick question?

My guess would be that you'd be allowed to reapply.

Without double checking, I believe that those who reapply for PR after leaving the country legally are not considered part of the annual quota by nationality, since they have already come out of an earlier quota. Therefore their re-applications should not be contingent on the Royal Decree establishing the annual immigration quota, which is what holds up PR applications, and can theoretically be accepted at any time. I think those who have formerly had Thai nationality are also in the same category. Both of these situations were commonplace in the past and the law and regulations have have not been amended to change things as far as I know. Chinese used to go back to China to work or study for more than a year and got their PR back automatically on return. There were also a lot of Chinese women born in Thailand who lost their Thai nationality as a result of marrying Chinese men and automatically got PR. However, what would happen in practice today might be another matter, in spite of the law. We are already in uncharted waters with four years' of applications backlogged without explanation and no Royal Decree last year.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Arkady

[samran]

I wonder if I was out of the country more than a year and lost my PR... would they even let me reapply for it now they aren't approving any new ones?

anecdotal only, but many years ago an acquaintance of a friend lost it after either forgetting to get a re-entry permit or having been away for a year.

Story goes that he did get it back eventually, though it wasn't through the normal channels used when you first apply.

I guess it is something you'd rather not have to try and find out!

(nb...my friend has PR....so he knows what he is talking about having gone through the process).

[brianinbangkok]

I wonder if I was out of the country more than a year and lost my PR... would they even let me reapply for it now they aren't approving any new ones?

anecdotal only, but many years ago an acquaintance of a friend lost it after either forgetting to get a re-entry permit or having been away for a year.

Story goes that he did get it back eventually, though it wasn't through the normal channels used when you first apply.

I guess it is something you'd rather not have to try and find out!

(nb...my friend has PR....so he knows what he is talking about having gone through the process).

Well I am wondering I have a PR now but the house I was registered on has been sold , the new owner will allow my name to stay on the tabien baan he said, however what happens to my PR if he does have me removed , lost my PR in that case ?

And I will not be in Thailand for a few months to take care of it.

Edited February 8, 2011 by brianinbangkok

[Camelot]

You need to be on a tabien baan when you come to renew your police book but, in my experience, PR status isn't affected or jeopardised by changes or gaps in your house registration.

Many years ago, (at least 20), a friend lost his PR by staying out of the country for more than a year. He was told he would have to reapply from scratch if his original application and approval documents couldn't be traced. Fortunately for him they were. He was very contrite. A new residence permit book was issued on payment of a 15,000 baht fine (plus the regular fee) for which he received a receipt.

I don't know what would happen in a similar situation today.

[brianinbangkok]

You need to be on a tabien baan when you come to renew your police book but, in my experience, PR status isn't affected or jeopardised by changes or gaps in your house registration.

Many years ago, (at least 20), a friend lost his PR by staying out of the country for more than a year. He was told he would have to reapply from scratch if his original application and approval documents couldn't be traced. Fortunately for him they were. He was very contrite. A new residence permit book was issued on payment of a 15,000 baht fine (plus the regular fee) for which he received a receipt.

I don't know what would happen in a similar situation today.

Thanks for the information , will post again if I do lose the PR because of this.

[camerata]

Well I am wondering I have a PR now but the house I was registered on has been sold , the new owner will allow my name to stay on the tabien baan he said, however what happens to my PR if he does have me removed , lost my PR in that case ?

Probably not, at least not without you having a chance to put yourself on another tabien baan. You'd better be nice to the new owner, and maybe sound out some Thai friends in case you need to change tabien baan in the future. I'm in a similar position in that if I want to move out of my rented condo, I'd have to buy a condo or find a friend willing to put me on their house registration.

[patrickyang]

That was some great advice but I am in a slightly different boat from yours.

I would really like to have a Residency Permit as I had been renewing my non-o Visa for over five years.

I have a legally married Thai wife and three lovely Thai daughters.

All staying in Bangkok.

I had always thinking to use a legal firm but I am worried I might get ripped off.

I don't have a work permit as I work from home. I am trading consumer products

as well as used machineries from abroad. Hence I am only using the internet and phones

for business and I don't have my own company.

I am using my wife's registered company.

Can you advice me on the best way to proceed to get a residency permit legally?

Thank you in advance.

[Mario2008]

The road to PR is paved along the line of working legally in Thaiand and paying your taxes, the more the better. It seems you are now working illegally in Thailand, unless you are employed by your wife's company and you pay your taxes to the Thai tax man.

If so, you might even consider getting Thai nationality. Being married to a Thai you don't need PR first.

[Arkady]

That was some great advice but I am in a slightly different boat from yours.

I would really like to have a Residency Permit as I had been renewing my non-o Visa for over five years.

I have a legally married Thai wife and three lovely Thai daughters.

All staying in Bangkok.

I had always thinking to use a legal firm but I am worried I might get ripped off.

I don't have a work permit as I work from home. I am trading consumer products

as well as used machineries from abroad. Hence I am only using the internet and phones

for business and I don't have my own company.

I am using my wife's registered company.

Can you advice me on the best way to proceed to get a residency permit legally?

Thank you in advance.

It's probably not worth paying a law firm to help out, since they won't be able to give you any more information than you can get by reading this thread thoroughly and visiting the PR section at Immigration, Chaengwatana, in person. You can get some professional help in obtaining notarised documents and getting notarised translations done but it will be cheaper to do this on an adhoc basis when you need it without paying an overall fee.

The first thing you need to do is get yourself a work permit and start paying as much tax as you can afford, as Mario points out. If you want to apply for citizenship instead, the same applies plus start donating to registered Thai charities and keep the receipts. At least three consecutive calendar years' of notarised tax receipts as a result of working in Thailand with a work permit will be required to apply for PR or citizenship. For the latter refer to this thread Both tracks require a lot of documentation, a reasonable knowledge of Thai and there is no certain outcome to these arcane processes that lack anything approaching transparency. Good luck.

[jayboy]

It's probably not worth paying a law firm to help out, since they won't be able to give you any more information than you can get by reading this thread thoroughly and visiting the PR section at Immigration, Chaengwatana, in person. You can get some professional help in obtaining notarised documents and getting notarised translations done but it will be cheaper to do this on an adhoc basis when you need it without paying an overall fee.

The first thing you need to do is get yourself a work permit and start paying as much tax as you can afford, as Mario points out. If you want to apply for citizenship instead, the same applies plus start donating to registered Thai charities and keep the receipts. At least three consecutive calendar years' of notarised tax receipts as a result of working in Thailand with a work permit will be required to apply for PR or citizenship. For the latter refer to this thread Both tracks require a lot of documentation, a reasonable knowledge of Thai and there is no certain outcome to these arcane processes that lack anything approaching transparency. Good luck.

You say it's probably not worth paying a law firm to help out, but the remainder of the post rather makes out the case for doing just that!

I know several successful PR applicants and most of them used law firms.It's really a question of how strapped one is financially and how much time one has to spare.All of the applicants I knew were prosperous and busy corporate executives.

[MikeyIdea]

It's probably not worth paying a law firm to help out, since they won't be able to give you any more information than you can get by reading this thread thoroughly and visiting the PR section at Immigration, Chaengwatana, in person. You can get some professional help in obtaining notarised documents and getting notarised translations done but it will be cheaper to do this on an adhoc basis when you need it without paying an overall fee.

The first thing you need to do is get yourself a work permit and start paying as much tax as you can afford, as Mario points out. If you want to apply for citizenship instead, the same applies plus start donating to registered Thai charities and keep the receipts. At least three consecutive calendar years' of notarised tax receipts as a result of working in Thailand with a work permit will be required to apply for PR or citizenship. For the latter refer to this thread http://www.thaivisa....p-application/. Both tracks require a lot of documentation, a reasonable knowledge of Thai and there is no certain outcome to these arcane processes that lack anything approaching transparency. Good luck.

You say it's probably not worth paying a law firm to help out, but the remainder of the post rather makes out the case for doing just that!

I know several successful PR applicants and most of them used law firms.It's really a question of how strapped one is financially and how much time one has to spare.All of the applicants I knew were prosperous and busy corporate executives.

Immigration do not ask for bribes from private individuals but they do request "help" (laptops etc) from law firms, another reason to do the paper work yourself

[jayboy]

Immigration do not ask for bribes from private individuals but they do request "help" (laptops etc) from law firms, another reason to do the paper work yourself

Not in my experience or in the experience of anyone I know.In fact I have never heard of any such irregularities in respect of PR applications when dealt with by the Department of Immigration.There is far too common an assumption that most Thai officials are corrupt:most aren't.

I have commented before on the choice of law firms.It's essential to choose the right firm.Most of the successful applicants I know simply use the international firms they were used to dealing with (headed by foreign lawyers although that undeniable fact gives some people on this forum an apoplexy).Most of this firms will have an experienced immigration specialist (obviously a Thai lawyer) who will take responsibility, although there will be minions dispatched to do the tedious aspects.

I don't deny that this is all rather expensive.One could take a risk and choose one of the firms specialising in servicing expatriates but I wouldn't recommend it.It can be done solo and I know someone who has done it.He spoke Thai very well and was very personable/charming - but he also for various reasons had a lot of time on his hands.

[MikeyIdea]

Immigration do not ask for bribes from private individuals but they do request "help" (laptops etc) from law firms, another reason to do the paper work yourself

Not in my experience or in the experience of anyone I know.In fact I have never heard of any such irregularities in respect of PR applications when dealt with by the Department of Immigration.There is far too common an assumption that most Thai officials are corrupt:most aren't.

I have commented before on the choice of law firms.It's essential to choose the right firm.Most of the successful applicants I know simply use the international firms they were used to dealing with (headed by foreign lawyers although that undeniable fact gives some people on this forum an apoplexy).Most of this firms will have an experienced immigration specialist (obviously a Thai lawyer) who will take responsibility, although there will be minions dispatched to do the tedious aspects.

I don't deny that this is all rather expensive.One could take a risk and choose one of the firms specialising in servicing expatriates but I wouldn't recommend it.It can be done solo and I know someone who has done it.He spoke Thai very well and was very personable/charming - but he also for various reasons had a lot of time on his hands.

I work for an American multi-national in Bangkok. We use a well known legal firm for work permits and visa stuff. I did my permanent residency myself, I didn't use them but their lawyer saw the PR stamp in my passport when I went to my annual work permit renewal and we started to talk about it. They have done plenty of PRs for diverse customers, the lawyer said that it was common for immigration to ask for - not money - but "help", "gifts". A good sample of a good gift was a laptop according to the lawyer. About me doing my PR myself, the lawyer commented - Then they didn't ask for anything, right? Which I am happy to say that they did not. I only have good to say about immigrations d-section, very friendly and helpful indeed

We have different information about the above case but apart from that, I totally agree with you when you say that most Thai officials are not corrupt, most are not. And I don't see small (not laptop...) gifts - help as bribes either any longer, been here too long I suppose. Now, that was my personal opinion, the companys policy regarding handling of government officials says something totally different of course

[stbkk]

Immigration do not ask for bribes from private individuals but they do request "help" (laptops etc) from law firms, another reason to do the paper work yourself

Not in my experience or in the experience of anyone I know.In fact I have never heard of any such irregularities in respect of PR applications when dealt with by the Department of Immigration.There is far too common an assumption that most Thai officials are corrupt:most aren't.

I have commented before on the choice of law firms.It's essential to choose the right firm.Most of the successful applicants I know simply use the international firms they were used to dealing with (headed by foreign lawyers although that undeniable fact gives some people on this forum an apoplexy).Most of this firms will have an experienced immigration specialist (obviously a Thai lawyer) who will take responsibility, although there will be minions dispatched to do the tedious aspects.

I don't deny that this is all rather expensive.One could take a risk and choose one of the firms specialising in servicing expatriates but I wouldn't recommend it.It can be done solo and I know someone who has done it.He spoke Thai very well and was very personable/charming - but he also for various reasons had a lot of time on his hands.

I did the paperwork myself (in 2006, so still waiting), as did a friend in 2008. Both with assistance from Thai other halves, but there was nothing too daunting. A few half days off work to visit assorted government offices etc., and I was definitely glad when it was done, but if you find the lawyers too expensive don't be put off. The people in immigration were also VERY helpful.

If you go back (a long way!) in this thread, there were a few posts about people being asked for 'extra' money by their lawyers. Obviously there's no way of telling where the original request came from, but I do know I was never asked for a single baht.

[jayboy]

If you go back (a long way!) in this thread, there were a few posts about people being asked for 'extra' money by their lawyers. Obviously there's no way of telling where the original request came from ...

Now that I can well believe and underlines the need to select the right legal firm.

I note MikeyIdea's comments on Immigration inducements.Since he obviously knows what he's talking about I shall have to factor that in.