Overcoming the enemies (negative self talk, habit, & excuses) of regular practice.

[rockyysdt]

Before I answer that can you tell me how you use the mantra. Is it similar to how you use breath.

 

I think the mantra.

 

I begin with observing the body.

I go through each body part looking for tension and let go until the body is totally relaxed.

 

I then turn my attention to breath.

Simply observing the long natural breath.

Following it in from the nostril to the navel, then following it out in reverse with particular attention to the point where in turns to out.

 

After establishing this rhythm I begin the matra.

Mine is a two syllable mantra, so half of it is thought during the in breath and the other half through the out breath.

I'm mindful of its vibrational nature as I observe myself thinking it.

Apart from that it I don't attach to it other than its quality to focus my attention from random thought.

[trd]

What you have described is quite different to the way I have used a mantra which is not related to breath in terms of practice, although as an effect of the mind becoming quieter, so does the breath become quieter as an automatic consequence of stillness. Knowing that breath, which is part of the life force of prana, becomes quiet or even suspended for long periods, my own view is that if the attention is put on the breath, the mind can unnaturally influence it.

You normally breath perfectly well without thinking about it, but if you become self conscious about it you can find yourself getting in the way of its natural rhythm. That won't happen for an accomplished vippasana practitioner who uses mindfulness of breathing, but it can be difficult for beginners. The advantage of using a mantra as a way of transcending the mind is that it ignores breath completely and therefore avoids potential interference of its natural rhythm. The breath then naturally quietens down as a result of a less active mind. The mantra, if used correctly, will facilitate a gradual quietening and an experience of more subtle states of least excitation of mind towards stillness and transcendence. If you take away the mantra as a vehicle but still go inwards, you are practising self enquiry as recommended by Sri Ramana and Nisargadatta. This goes back full circle to what Maha Boowa said about a mantra being a useful anchor. You don't need it, but it helps to orientate the mind in the right direction which is inwards towards silence.

[rockyysdt]

What you have described is quite different to the way I have used a mantra which is not related to breath in terms of practice, although as an effect of the mind becoming quieter, so does the breath become quieter as an automatic consequence of stillness. Knowing that breath, which is part of the life force of prana, becomes quiet or even suspended for long periods, my own view is that if the attention is put on the breath, the mind can unnaturally influence it.

You normally breath perfectly well without thinking about it, but if you become self conscious about it you can find yourself getting in the way of its natural rhythm. That won't happen for an accomplished vippasana practitioner who uses mindfulness of breathing, but it can be difficult for beginners. The advantage of using a mantra as a way of transcending the mind is that it ignores breath completely and therefore avoids potential interference of its natural rhythm. The breath then naturally quietens down as a result of a less active mind. The mantra, if used correctly, will facilitate a gradual quietening and an experience of more subtle states of least excitation of mind towards stillness and transcendence. If you take away the mantra as a vehicle but still go inwards, you are practising self enquiry as recommended by Sri Ramana and Nisargadatta. This goes back full circle to what Maha Boowa said about a mantra being a useful anchor. You don't need it, but it helps to orientate the mind in the right direction which is inwards towards silence.

 

Thank you for your advice and experience.

 

I take on board the danger that the untrained mind can unnaturally affect breath.

 

The author of Maha Boowa's book (p13) advises that if you find it helpful, you can combine breathing focus with a silent repetition of Buddho as a mantra, by thinking Bud on the inhalation & dho on the exhalation.

 

When I succeeded in experiencing Samadhi with Piti (once significantly) after the initial focus on breath, awareness of breath disappeared as my mind entered a deeply quiet state.

 

I'm left a little unsure of the direction I should now take.

I like the idea of mantra and the way Maha Boowa resolved to stick with it during Mindfulness until it bore fruit, but completely exclude the breath concerns me.

 

 

I've attempted various techniques over 20 years, but my best/ break through experiences came from the practice of Buddhadasa's first tetrad of Anapanasiti which teaches focus on breathing.

 

After abandoning the notion of trying to meditate (it can only come of its own accord given the right conditions), I concentrated on the conditions for it.

This included appropriate posture (free of muscular tension and supple alignment with gravity) and focus on breath.

 

The breathing exercises included (first tetrad):

 

Investigation of the effects of the controlled short breath on the body and mind (tension and rampant thought).

Then investigation of the effects of the unnatural controlled long breath on the body and mind.

Then establishing an uncontrolled, relaxed long breath, developing this over time.

Then by refining this breath by following it.

As stillness of mind occurred, the rhythm and depth of breath automatically became finer and finer.

Edited August 5, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

The author of Maha Boowa's book (p13) advises that if you find it helpful, you can combine breathing focus with a silent repetition of Buddho as a mantra, by thinking Bud on the inhalation & dho on the exhalation.

Small point. The author of Maha Boowa's book was Maha Boowa. That's worth mentioning as he was so highly regarded. It's a very good English translation isn't it?

When I succeeded in experiencing Samadhi with Piti (once significantly) after the initial focus on breath, awareness of breath disappeared as my mind entered a deeply quiet state.

That's good. You felt some bliss coming through. This is a clue that bliss is actually your natural state.

I'm left a little unsure of the direction I should now take.
I like the idea of mantra and the way Maha Boowa resolved to stick with it during Mindfulness until it bore fruit, but completely exclude the breath concerns me.

So having experienced that blissful state of silence where awareness of breath disappeared, you now want it back?

I've attempted various techniques over 20 years, but my best/ break through experiences came from the practice of Buddhadasa's first tetrad of Anapanasiti which teaches focus on breathing.

I'm not sure I should be influencing you one way or the other, but I would say the simpler the better.

[rockyysdt]

I'm left a little unsure of the direction I should now take.
I like the idea of mantra and the way Maha Boowa resolved to stick with it during Mindfulness until it bore fruit, but completely exclude the breath concerns me.

So having experienced that blissful state of silence where awareness of breath disappeared, you now want it back?
I'm not sure I should be influencing you one way or the other, but I would say the simpler the better.

 

 

Thanks T.

 

I understand the trap of seeking and becoming attached to blissful experiences.

 

My view of Piti and other such states, is that they represent a reward along the way, and are an indicator that progress has occurred.

 

 

They should be observed, but like random thoughts, when one becomes aware of them, to refocus on breath/mantra and they will pass.

 

I've read that travelers, like those addicted to drugs, can be trapped in such states, whilst others, seeking a repeat of such experiences, by this very act fail to achieve them and consequently fall back in their practice.
 

Edited August 5, 2014 by rockyysdt

[RandomSand]

Warning. Zen...

 

As long as there is a path there can be no destination.

As long as there is practice there can be no perfection.

 

Ghost is hungry.

Sick man will puke.

 

Are you ghost or sick person ?

Edited August 6, 2014 by RandomSand

[rockyysdt]

Warning. Zen...

 

As long as there is a path there can be no destination.

As long as there is practice there can be no perfection.

 

Ghost is hungry.

Sick man will puke.

 

Are you ghost or sick person ?

 

Touche R.

 

Language is such a trap.

 

Poor choice of words on my part.

 

My use of "path" was to express practice, rather than destination.

[trd]

So having experienced that blissful state of silence where awareness of breath disappeared, you now want it back?

I understand the trap of seeking and becoming attached to blissful experiences.

My view of Piti and other such states, is that they represent a reward along the way, and are an indicator that progress has occurred.

Sorry, the way I framed my question was a little unclear. I was referring to you wanting the awareness of breath back, not the bliss. You expressed a concern about not using breath in your practice, but then lost awareness of it in samadhi, so I was asking why be focussed on it in the first place. But if you are comfortable with it, then by all means continue with it. You sometimes seem worried about whether you are practising correctly according to this authority or that authority, but I wouldn't worry. If you connect with that silence you are doing nothing wrong.

The bliss is not a reward. It is a glimpse of your natural state. Yes, there are warnings in some scriptures of becoming too attached to the bliss, but in most cases it integrates quite naturally within the field of action which will ground it. Bliss doesn't mean being in an ecstatic state all the time.

[rockyysdt]

Thanks TRD.

I'm mindful that the tools of practice are simply an aid, but there's always danger of attachment to these.

My main preference to breath as described in anapanasiti is due to my success so far in its use.

Also a Monk of thirty years with personal lack of progress for many of these attested to the power of chasing the breath In his experience

Taking his advice, progress came within 2 weeks.

Insight which I also gained whilst exploring the first tetrad was the effect of breath over mind and body.

Short breath - rampant thoughts & tense body.
Long uncontrolled breath - supple body & clear mind.

Using and developing the long uncontrolled breath not only provided a focus for me, it assists in clearing the mind and relaxing the body.

Adding a mantra is something I'll explore.