Refusal rate for UK family visit visas after appeals abolished

[7by7]

Your prejudices are showing yet again.

 

Refused applicants should have the option of re applying or appealing. A fee for appeal which would be refunded if the appeal is successful is a lot fairer than forcing all applicants to give up or apply again; particularly so next year when the right of appeal for settlement refusals is also abolished.

 

As for your link; that's the result of an old consultation on the requirements for family settlement; so old the government acted on it in their changes of 2012! Nothing to do with abolishing appeals.

 

There is a big difference between statistics and opinions; would you like to buy a dictionary?.

Edited August 9, 2014 by 7by7

[Tony M]

One of the core points I'm trying to make is that not all applications are equal.

In the case of the majority of those lodged in Thailand it is probably fair to say they are genuine family visit applications.

However there will also be those where the applicant,having failed to enter as a spouse ,then tries to use the system to stay in the UK for six months out of twelve. In short a bit like the Thai tourist visa run.

Applications from third world countries are more likely to be for economic and not genuine reasons.

48% of applications from Pakistan are refused. That is an amazing number and given the number of people in the UK with a relationship to that country it suggests something more than just a few errors on the part of the ECO's processing the applications.

As for suggesting a fee for appeal why would that make sense when another application is cheaper and quicker?

There are some interesting statistics here

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299998/fam-mig-con-findings.xls

 

As always, the points you quote are selective,p presumably in the hope that others won't find what you don't want them to read.  For instance, on the same matter, Lord Avebury said :

 

 I take the point that a new application is less expensive and faster than an appeal; but where the decision-makers have made an obvious mistake, I do not accept that a genuine family visitor should have to pay twice, and suffer the complications affecting future travel, because the refusal has to be declared not only in the UK but to any other intended destinations to which the applicant may travel. Therefore, it is a blot on the person’s copybook that he will want and need to remove if he is to go anywhere without hindrance.

 

If a person wins the appeal, it is likely that the tribunal will make a costs order against the Secretary of State, so that the appeal will be free in the end. Moreover, if the refusal was due to disbelief that the applicant would return home at the end of the visit, it is only too probable that a fresh application would yield the same result. Only by appealing can the person attack the errors that led to the original refusal, and it was for that reason that I advised Mrs N from Beirut—whom I think was the person that the noble Baroness was talking about a few minutes ago and whose case I mentioned in Committee—to appeal as well as to ask for the original decision to be reviewed.

 

Therefore, I am afraid that the reasons that were given by my noble kinsman for thinking that an appeal may not be the best remedy for an unjustified refusal do not hold water. I hope that in the light of that consideration, there should be a simple process that would enable the applicant to lodge supplementary evidence supporting the validity of any document or statement which is challenged, rather than having to start again from scratch.

[Jay Sata]

Your prejudices are showing yet again.
 
A fee for appeal which would be refunded if the appeal is successful is a lot fairer than forcing all applicants to give up or apply again; particularly so next year when the right of appeal for settlement refusals is also abolished.
 
As for your link; that's the result of a consultation on the requirements for family settlement; nothing to do with abolishing appeals.
 
There is a big difference between statistics and opinions; would you like to buy a dictionary?.

You miss the big picture completely with your own personal bias.

The government sensibly act on public opinion which has dictated over the last couple of years that some sort of controls have to be in place to avoid the immigration exploitation in the past.

India,Pakistan and Bangladesh were key areas where so called family visit visas were used to bring some distant cousin to the UK and then work for peanuts in a sweatshop or a restaurant.

48% refusal rate from Pakistan is hight by any standard. Less than 1000 from Thailand is quite a modest figure.

I say again there is no need for appeal as the person making the application can have as many attempts as they like at £85!

Why should the UK taxpayer fund a foreigner application? Edited August 9, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Jay Sata]

One of the core points I'm trying to make is that not all applications are equal.

In the case of the majority of those lodged in Thailand it is probably fair to say they are genuine family visit applications.

However there will also be those where the applicant,having failed to enter as a spouse ,then tries to use the system to stay in the UK for six months out of twelve. In short a bit like the Thai tourist visa run.

Applications from third world countries are more likely to be for economic and not genuine reasons.

48% of applications from Pakistan are refused. That is an amazing number and given the number of people in the UK with a relationship to that country it suggests something more than just a few errors on the part of the ECO's processing the applications.

As for suggesting a fee for appeal why would that make sense when another application is cheaper and quicker?

There are some interesting statistics here

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299998/fam-mig-con-findings.xls

 
As always, the points you quote are selective,p presumably in the hope that others won't find what you don't want them to read.  For instance, on the same matter, Lord Avebury said :
 
 I take the point that a new application is less expensive and faster than an appeal; but where the decision-makers have made an obvious mistake, I do not accept that a genuine family visitor should have to pay twice, and suffer the complications affecting future travel, because the refusal has to be declared not only in the UK but to any other intended destinations to which the applicant may travel. Therefore, it is a blot on the persons copybook that he will want and need to remove if he is to go anywhere without hindrance.
 
If a person wins the appeal, it is likely that the tribunal will make a costs order against the Secretary of State, so that the appeal will be free in the end. Moreover, if the refusal was due to disbelief that the applicant would return home at the end of the visit, it is only too probable that a fresh application would yield the same result. Only by appealing can the person attack the errors that led to the original refusal, and it was for that reason that I advised Mrs N from Beirutwhom I think was the person that the noble Baroness was talking about a few minutes ago and whose case I mentioned in Committeeto appeal as well as to ask for the original decision to be reviewed.
 
Therefore, I am afraid that the reasons that were given by my noble kinsman for thinking that an appeal may not be the best remedy for an unjustified refusal do not hold water. I hope that in the light of that consideration, there should be a simple process that would enable the applicant to lodge supplementary evidence supporting the validity of any document or statement which is challenged, rather than having to start again from scratch.

But we have the separation of powers in the UK where the government not the judiciary run the system.
The judges and House of Lords are not bodies elected by the man or woman in the street.

We are discussing something that is already law so is unlikely to be overturned.

If lobbyists and those with a personal interest in decisions were allowed to overturn what had been passed by Parliament we would have mayhem.

At the end of the day most genuine family visit visas are granted.

The whole process is a done deal and will not be overturned no matter what hot air and opinion is discharged here.

If someone has a genuine problem then the various commercial visas agents are there to help them.

Immigration is a political hot potato and at the risk of repeating myself I say politicians are reflecting public opinion.

If a relative cannot get a visa to the UK the option is to visit them! Edited August 9, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

India,Pakistan and Bangladesh were key areas where so called family visit visas were used to bring some distant cousin to the UK and then work for peanuts in a sweatshop or a restaurant.

 
You regularly bring this up; but have no evidence to support it other than your own prejudices.

 

But I will say that no one here is defending people who abuse the system or immigration rules; a point you seem incapable of grasping.
 
The government is, indeed, pandering to public opinion; but public opinion is wrong.
 
Public opinion thinks too many immigrants are coming to the UK from the EEA; abolishing the right of appeal will do nothing to address that concern.

 

Yes, the current government has made these regulations, but regulations can be changed.

 

The House of Lords and the courts are part of the governmental system in the UK. If you don't like the way the UK constitution works then you can always return to Ireland.
 
Yet again you bring up the arrogant solution of "If a relative cannot get a visa to the UK the option is to visit them!" Which sums you up completely.

 

To counter your 'option' I refer you to the answers I gave when you suggested it before.

[Tony M]

 

 

One of the core points I'm trying to make is that not all applications are equal.

In the case of the majority of those lodged in Thailand it is probably fair to say they are genuine family visit applications.

However there will also be those where the applicant,having failed to enter as a spouse ,then tries to use the system to stay in the UK for six months out of twelve. In short a bit like the Thai tourist visa run.

Applications from third world countries are more likely to be for economic and not genuine reasons.

48% of applications from Pakistan are refused. That is an amazing number and given the number of people in the UK with a relationship to that country it suggests something more than just a few errors on the part of the ECO's processing the applications.

As for suggesting a fee for appeal why would that make sense when another application is cheaper and quicker?

There are some interesting statistics here

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299998/fam-mig-con-findings.xls

 
As always, the points you quote are selective,p presumably in the hope that others won't find what you don't want them to read.  For instance, on the same matter, Lord Avebury said :
 
 I take the point that a new application is less expensive and faster than an appeal; but where the decision-makers have made an obvious mistake, I do not accept that a genuine family visitor should have to pay twice, and suffer the complications affecting future travel, because the refusal has to be declared not only in the UK but to any other intended destinations to which the applicant may travel. Therefore, it is a blot on the persons copybook that he will want and need to remove if he is to go anywhere without hindrance.
 
If a person wins the appeal, it is likely that the tribunal will make a costs order against the Secretary of State, so that the appeal will be free in the end. Moreover, if the refusal was due to disbelief that the applicant would return home at the end of the visit, it is only too probable that a fresh application would yield the same result. Only by appealing can the person attack the errors that led to the original refusal, and it was for that reason that I advised Mrs N from Beirutwhom I think was the person that the noble Baroness was talking about a few minutes ago and whose case I mentioned in Committeeto appeal as well as to ask for the original decision to be reviewed.
 
Therefore, I am afraid that the reasons that were given by my noble kinsman for thinking that an appeal may not be the best remedy for an unjustified refusal do not hold water. I hope that in the light of that consideration, there should be a simple process that would enable the applicant to lodge supplementary evidence supporting the validity of any document or statement which is challenged, rather than having to start again from scratch.

But we have the separation of powers in the UK where the government not the judiciary run the system.
The judges and House of Lords are not bodies elected by the man or woman in the street.

We are discussing something that is already law so is unlikely to be overturned.

If lobbyists and those with a personal interest in decisions were allowed to overturn what had been passed by Parliament we would have mayhem.

At the end of the day most genuine family visit visas are granted.

The whole process is a done deal and will not be overturned no matter what hot air and opinion is discharged here.

If someone has a genuine problem then the various commercial visas agents are there to help them.

Immigration is a political hot potato and at the risk of repeating myself I say politicians are reflecting public opinion.

If a relative cannot get a visa to the UK the option is to visit them!

 

 

You continue to repeat the same nonsense, and have shown yourself to be incapable of independent thought.  You continue to state that laws cannot be changed by public opinion, and that those who have had visas refused should just accept it.  I can't wait to see what you your views are when the right of appeal in settlement applications is removed.

[Jay Sata]

If I may quote you....

"Yet again you bring up the arrogant solution of "If a relative cannot get a visa to the UK the option is to visit them!" Which sums you up completely."

There is nothing arrogant of stating the obvious. If seeing family is the only genuine reason for the visit and the visa is refused then what is wrong with buying an airline ticket to another country.

You say public opinion is wrong but facts speak for themselves which is why even the likes of the awful Milliband and his champagne socialist chums like Harman have changed their tune.

By your standards a 48% refusal rate for Pakistan means half the ECO's should be fired for making mistakes.

I take it you never see the locals newspaper reports of another Bangladeshi or Indian 'visitor' caught working in a restaurant.
"An immigration raid has left a restaurant in Ongar facing a potential fine of up to £100,000.

Five staff members at The Mogul, in High Street, were found to be immigration offenders from Bangladesh who had overstayed their visas.

The five men, aged between 25 and 34, were arrested when Home Office Immigration Enforcement officers visited shortly after 5.30pm on Thursday.

Four of the men have since been released on bail but a 29-year-old has been detained.

Proceedings to remove the men from the UK are now under way."

Read more: http://www.brentwoodgazette.co.uk/Ongar-restaurant-facing-100k-fine-illegal/story-21741711-detail/story.html#comments#ixzz39uMVEqpG

Please present some genuine facts about thousands of Thais being refused entry to the UK on family visit visas.

I think the truth is just a handful. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Jay Sata]

Here is a prime example of the visa fraud that has surrounded so called family visas.

This from today's Daily Mail.

But the supposedly flourishing businessman was in fact a criminal mastermind responsible for an ambitious immigration racket.
Investigators believe he helped more than 100 of his countrymen, including most of his extended family, to enter the UK illegally under false and stolen identities.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2720647/Conman-posed-Nigerian-prince-high-society-masterminding-massive-immigration-scam-jailed-seven-years.html#ixzz39vBx4OXs
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[7by7]

Please present some genuine facts about thousands of Thais being refused entry to the UK on family visit visas.

 

HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THOUSANDS OF THAIS ARE REFUSED ENTRY TO THE UK ON FAMILY VISIT VISAS!!!!!!!!!!

 

GOT IT NOW???

 

(To my fellow members; apologies for shouting)

[7by7]

Yes, we all know that visa fraud exists and that criminal gangs use it to get people into the UK for any number of nefarious reasons and that their 'clients' then overstay.

These people are expert at what they do, and it is unlikely that many of their clients fraudulently entered the UK after successfully appealing a family visit visa.
 

Here is a prime example of the visa fraud that has surrounded so called family visas.

It is no such thing.

From the article YOU have linked to

At the centre of the scam was a corrupt Home Office worker who sold him genuine, but improperly issued, refugee passports for £1,500 each.

 

Not family visit visas at all!

If you are going to use newspaper articles to back up your claims; maybe you should read them first!

[Jay Sata]

Please present some genuine facts about thousands of Thais being refused entry to the UK on family visit visas.

 
HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THOUSANDS OF THAIS ARE REFUSED ENTRY TO THE UK ON FAMILY VISIT VISAS!!!!!!!!!!
 
GOT IT NOW???
 
(To my fellow members; apologies for shouting)

You refuse to give any numbers to back up your argument that there are many mistakes on Thai family visa applications.

You suggest on a regular basis that many ECO's make regular mistakes.

You also refuse to accept the government line that making as many £85 pound as you like applications is cheaper than appeals.

You suggest Afghanistan etc has many genuine tourists and suggest I am racist stating the blindingly obvious that Pakistan with a refusal rate of 48% has problems.

You refuse to discuss with numbers the refusal rate which is what this thread is all about.

I am sure I would not like you any where near making serious rational decisions. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Deleted; it simply isn't worth it.
 
He can't even read and understand the newspaper articles he uses to support his case properly; what hope is there that he can read and understand other member's posts?

[Jay Sata]

Shouting achieves nothing.

Please give me some numbers to back up your argument that the new system is wrong as lots of mistakes are being made by the entry clearance officers.

However much you shout at me you will have to accept the days of family visit visa appeals are over and the £85 per application method is the only way forward.

[7by7]

I apologise for shouting; but when you ask the same questions again and again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (annoying, isn't it) and again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again ( even more annoying, isn't it) and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again: claiming each time that they have not been answered when they clearly have been, frustration does take over.

[Jay Sata]

I apologise for shouting; but when you ask the same questions again and again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (annoying, isn't it) and again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again ( even more annoying, isn't it) and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again: claiming each time that they have not been answered when they clearly have been, frustration does take over.

Frustration will not counter facts.

The facts are that there is no substantive evidence produced by you or anyone else her to suggest there is a massive or indeed minor injustice with regard to your perceived bias by entry clearance officers in Thailand or anywhere else to deny genuine well presented applications for family visit visas.

In the case of other countries the numbers speak for themselves.

For Thai applications the fee is minimal at just £85 compared to the airfare of around £650 per person coach/economy.

In other countries that may be seen as a large amount of money.

Agents fees are a lot more than the UK government fee but then not everyone is skilled when it comes to filling out the forms.

There are a number of agents who advertise here and they exist to help people who are not prepared or able to submit an application.

You appear to want to engineer some sort of avenue for applications to suit your agenda and not the public purse.

Please accept this is a done deal and throwing the toys out of the pram will get you nowhere.

Please keep calm and carry on. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jay Sata

[loppylugs1]

Deleted; it simply isn't worth it.
 
He can't even read and understand the newspaper articles he uses to support his case properly; what hope is there that he can read and understand other member's posts?

 

Quite simply it is all about numbers (again),if the numbers do not stack up in the immgration/visitor quotas the govt.sets  ,no matter if the application is flawless you do not get in,simple,and the revolving door of application after application is sure to be ingested too.

 

 Yes Right of Appeal removed,and a good move.Think I would look on this period as  a particular generous period as far as whatever guise of immigration is used to enter the UK. The EU renegotiation/get out will be such a fundamental blow to all hopeful and present immigrants for sure, a visa for all,short term ones preferable

 

Anyway there is a comfort level here,yes been around the block a few times and acknowledge that people find happiness with their own kith and kin,but more importantly their social and monetary level too,if you do not mind me stating the obvious

[Jay Sata]

In simple terms we do not know the number of refusals for Thai family members.

It must be fairly low otherwise there would be a stream of threads on here.

The 25% refusal rate quoted in the OP is the total for the overall applications across the world.

[7by7]

Frustration will not counter facts.

 
You are correct, but any relevant facts you have produced have been countered; you choose to ignore that and bring in irrelevancies instead.

You bang on about no one answering your questions; yet all your questions have been answered and you have ignored every single one that you have been asked.

In future I will simply ignore you and your alter ego and leave you both under your bridge where facts are flexible and using illegally obtained refugee passports to enter the UK is the same as applying for a family visit visa!