Thailand to waive visa fees for Chinese, Taiwanese tourists

[OJAS]

The fees exemption will only last between now and October. Since this is hardly the peak tourist season in LOS it will probably make SFA difference in practice.

[NickyBurma]

The fees exemption will only last between now and October. Since this is hardly the peak tourist season in LOS it will probably make SFA difference in practice.

have to make the numbers some how to make themselves look good...



Sent from my S2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Tokay]

i hope the gamble pays off...for me all i see is Chinese tourists abusing thailand with their loudness, dirty manners and dis-respect of thais

 

I have stopped using the restaurants in terminal 21 as I am so sick of the Chinese groups that come in and basically turn the place into a shouting and selfie irritation

 

 

 

There are two different types of Chinese coming here now. The group tours (usually loud, rude, dirty, and cheap), and the wealthy (not rude, well mannered, spends a lot of money). You can count on wherever the group tours are going to be a zoo. Just avoid tour bus drop off areas in general and you'll be OK.

 

Wealthy Chinese are quite nice to deal with.

[Thakkar]

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 
Although you have only just presented an opinion, let's face it, most people are most comfortable hanging around people who are similar to them in terms of language, culture and even appearance. This is not unique to westerners, who in fact are MORE exposed to people of other cultures due to their countries mostly being multicultural these days. Attempting to apply US style political correctness to a non-multicultural country like Thailand, in the hope that it might earn you some "brownie points" (with whom I wonder?) is not going to get you anywhere. Just look at the many examples of such discrimination in Thailand - case in point: Japanese bars at Patpong. Do they allow anyone non-Japanese inside, particularly a lone westerner, Chinese, even a Thai, anyone who isn't Japanese and/or who isn't in the company of other Japanese? NO! Why not? Well because they don't like non-Japanese! Their excuses? They think non-Japanese smell and they feel uncomfortable around them! Racist? You bet, but basically they just want to hang out with people who are from the same country as them, who understand their language and culture. What I don't get however is how can Thailand allow this? It's one thing if Japanese have their own rules in Japan, but surely they shouldn't be able to get away with it in Thailand? I could be way off here, but I doubt any Japanese bars in the States would be allowed to discriminate like this.
 
Then there's many types of businesses in China who don't allow Japanese inside, particularly during the sensitive anniversary of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing (also known as Nanking in historical western texts but the actual pronunciation is Nanjing). During the Beijing Olympics signs were put up on bars stating: "no blacks or Mongolians allowed inside."
 
And finally, I know Thai people who've gone to live in New York city, one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. They have essentially NO non-Thai friends even after 5 years of US residency - not even other Asians, but no non-Thai friends (or at least no close ones). I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from. Chinese people I've known in Australia (mainly overseas students) typically only associate with other Chinese and at the end of their stays they haven't made one significant local Aussie or other non-Chinese friend.
 
Therefore, for anyone thinking it's going to be easy trying to befriend any of these new Chinese tourists in Thailand I'll give you a head-start. Most likely they'll only want to hang around each other and don't want to get to know you. There will always be exceptions, but unless one is traveling alone, most people of most nationalities will just want to hang out with one another and experience the local culture, without necessarily being interested in people from third countries/cultures. I guess that's what they came to Thailand for - to experience Thailand and Thai culture.

There isn't that much I disagree with, though I don't see what the things you say have to do with what I said.

Possibly, you've conflated what people's comfort levels are with how it's ok to behave in civilized society and in an inextricably interlinked world.

Wanting to "be with your own kind" is no excuse to damn others of a different "kind".

Besides, I've found that whenever I take the time and trouble to get to know people, no matter how different-looking, I find that we are invariably more similar than different. To get there it takes some work, an open mind, a willingness to engage and an unwillingness to allow oneself the comfort of knee jerk reactions. So it's not an exercise for the lazy or insular.

It's true that some immigrants don't integrate. But many do, and the reasons for both are varied. For example, when my parents emigrated, my dad integrated and had a ball. My mom didn't and was miserable. She wasn't racist, just shy and wary of new foods, smells and sounds. My dad integrated because he enjoyed eating, drinking and socializing. It wasn't because he wasn't racist (he wasn't, but that's less relevant).

I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge. I've also been very successful at winning people over and these people, years later, have expressed surprise and disgust at who they used to be. Hence I'm always optimistic that people can change. This is why I bother to debate rather than argue, why I try, as much as possible, to use humor rather than to lobe outright accusations.

Businesses following racist policies:
They do it because it's good for business, not necessarily because they're racist. Of course, it's still wrong to pander to the racism of your clients.

Racist behavior or attitudes by Thais doesn't make it ok for others to engage in same. It's wrong whoever does it. The wrongness of it stands on its own and is self evident. But there are also practical reasons. We now know that many of humanity's problems are interlinked, that solving them will require concerted efforts. We can't do that unless we eschew hate, respect each other, acknowledge our similarities and accept our differences.

Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

[tlock]

 

 

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 
Although you have only just presented an opinion, let's face it, most people are most comfortable hanging around people who are similar to them in terms of language, culture and even appearance. This is not unique to westerners, who in fact are MORE exposed to people of other cultures due to their countries mostly being multicultural these days. Attempting to apply US style political correctness to a non-multicultural country like Thailand, in the hope that it might earn you some "brownie points" (with whom I wonder?) is not going to get you anywhere. Just look at the many examples of such discrimination in Thailand - case in point: Japanese bars at Patpong. Do they allow anyone non-Japanese inside, particularly a lone westerner, Chinese, even a Thai, anyone who isn't Japanese and/or who isn't in the company of other Japanese? NO! Why not? Well because they don't like non-Japanese! Their excuses? They think non-Japanese smell and they feel uncomfortable around them! Racist? You bet, but basically they just want to hang out with people who are from the same country as them, who understand their language and culture. What I don't get however is how can Thailand allow this? It's one thing if Japanese have their own rules in Japan, but surely they shouldn't be able to get away with it in Thailand? I could be way off here, but I doubt any Japanese bars in the States would be allowed to discriminate like this.
 
Then there's many types of businesses in China who don't allow Japanese inside, particularly during the sensitive anniversary of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing (also known as Nanking in historical western texts but the actual pronunciation is Nanjing). During the Beijing Olympics signs were put up on bars stating: "no blacks or Mongolians allowed inside."
 
And finally, I know Thai people who've gone to live in New York city, one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. They have essentially NO non-Thai friends even after 5 years of US residency - not even other Asians, but no non-Thai friends (or at least no close ones). I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from. Chinese people I've known in Australia (mainly overseas students) typically only associate with other Chinese and at the end of their stays they haven't made one significant local Aussie or other non-Chinese friend.
 
Therefore, for anyone thinking it's going to be easy trying to befriend any of these new Chinese tourists in Thailand I'll give you a head-start. Most likely they'll only want to hang around each other and don't want to get to know you. There will always be exceptions, but unless one is traveling alone, most people of most nationalities will just want to hang out with one another and experience the local culture, without necessarily being interested in people from third countries/cultures. I guess that's what they came to Thailand for - to experience Thailand and Thai culture.

There isn't that much I disagree with, though I don't see what the things you say have to do with what I said.

Possibly, you've conflated what people's comfort levels are with how it's ok to behave in civilized society and in an inextricably interlinked world.

Wanting to "be with your own kind" is no excuse to damn others of a different "kind".

Besides, I've found that whenever I take the time and trouble to get to know people, no matter how different-looking, I find that we are invariably more similar than different. To get there it takes some work, an open mind, a willingness to engage and an unwillingness to allow oneself the comfort of knee jerk reactions. So it's not an exercise for the lazy or insular.

It's true that some immigrants don't integrate. But many do, and the reasons for both are varied. For example, when my parents emigrated, my dad integrated and had a ball. My mom didn't and was miserable. She wasn't racist, just shy and wary of new foods, smells and sounds. My dad integrated because he enjoyed eating, drinking and socializing. It wasn't because he wasn't racist (he wasn't, but that's less relevant).

I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge. I've also been very successful at winning people over and these people, years later, have expressed surprise and disgust at who they used to be. Hence I'm always optimistic that people can change. This is why I bother to debate rather than argue, why I try, as much as possible, to use humor rather than to lobe outright accusations.

Businesses following racist policies:
They do it because it's good for business, not necessarily because they're racist. Of course, it's still wrong to pander to the racism of your clients.

Racist behavior or attitudes by Thais doesn't make it ok for others to engage in same. It's wrong whoever does it. The wrongness of it stands on its own and is self evident. But there are also practical reasons. We now know that many of humanity's problems are interlinked, that solving them will require concerted efforts. We can't do that unless we eschew hate, respect each other, acknowledge our similarities and accept our differences.

Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

 

 

You sure you're not misunderstanding what brownie points means?  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_points

[OJAS]

 

The fees exemption will only last between now and October. Since this is hardly the peak tourist season in LOS it will probably make SFA difference in practice.

have to make the numbers some how to make themselves look good...



Sent from my S2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Strikes me as more like a token gesture to celebrate 40 years of Sino-Thai diplomatic relations than a concrete measure to boost oriental tourist numbers.

[LawrenceChee]

I work in the hospitality business and while many on this forum can bash them

Every country in reality needs the cash rich Chinese ...either the richer ones with more manners having the best of the hotel stays and keeping your Revpar up ( been to the Weston four seasons and Hyatt recently ) or the bus loads of the hordes if your business model caters to the masses

Case in point ...I am consulting for a cruise line now ...used to be big in Miami and now moving to Asia in a big way ...why ? You have the 5 / 50 cents slot player in the Miami market that complain a lot and want to talk non stop to your crew making them go bonkers bringing in pantry sums vs the rowdy who play $5000 a hand blackjack and $25000 baccarat ...with the fuel prices the business model was a given and the business adapted to the Chinese guests

Gone are the pubs, replaced by shops and bigger casino space and
Chinese speaking crew ...fly to Paris and have a look and see the couture shops there...they have more Chinese staff than Chinatown in Vancouver

Much can be said but the sad reality is most western business Thailand included need them to substain the business model for the 30 baht and 90 baht beer drinkers here and it a lousy feeling ..but it's the truth


Sent from my iPod touch using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[elzach]

 

Many Thai girls can now hope to hook up with Chinese mainland "casanovas" and possibly moving in with the in-laws at such cosmopolitan, happening places like Wuhan. Paris? London? New York? Wuhan? same same. 

 

Yes, Wuhan is very cosmopolitan. The kind of place where every non-Chinese is intensely stared at (out of curiosity of course), every single day they are out on the streets, because the average Chinese has never seen a white/black/Indian etc. foreigner in person before. Cosmopolitan. Lol.
 

 

 

Yes, I was obviously being sarcastic. And let's not forget their clean air and clean water and clean food. Frankly, a choice could be: Wuhan (or similar) stay or prison somewhere else?

[OJAS]

 

 

The fees exemption will only last between now and October. Since this is hardly the peak tourist season in LOS it will probably make SFA difference in practice.

have to make the numbers some how to make themselves look good...



Sent from my S2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Strikes me as more like a token gesture to celebrate 40 years of Sino-Thai diplomatic relations than a concrete measure to boost oriental tourist numbers.

 

 

A further thought: if the powers-that-be here in LOS are really serious about promoting Chinese/Taiwanese tourism, then why have they not allowed this concession to run through at least until the next Lunar New Year (19th February 2015), which is the peak tourist season in that part of the world?

[metisdead]

A post containing Chinese profanity has been removed.  

[thaitakeaway]

 

 

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 
Although you have only just presented an opinion, let's face it, most people are most comfortable hanging around people who are similar to them in terms of language, culture and even appearance. This is not unique to westerners, who in fact are MORE exposed to people of other cultures due to their countries mostly being multicultural these days. Attempting to apply US style political correctness to a non-multicultural country like Thailand, in the hope that it might earn you some "brownie points" (with whom I wonder?) is not going to get you anywhere. Just look at the many examples of such discrimination in Thailand - case in point: Japanese bars at Patpong. Do they allow anyone non-Japanese inside, particularly a lone westerner, Chinese, even a Thai, anyone who isn't Japanese and/or who isn't in the company of other Japanese? NO! Why not? Well because they don't like non-Japanese! Their excuses? They think non-Japanese smell and they feel uncomfortable around them! Racist? You bet, but basically they just want to hang out with people who are from the same country as them, who understand their language and culture. What I don't get however is how can Thailand allow this? It's one thing if Japanese have their own rules in Japan, but surely they shouldn't be able to get away with it in Thailand? I could be way off here, but I doubt any Japanese bars in the States would be allowed to discriminate like this.
 
Then there's many types of businesses in China who don't allow Japanese inside, particularly during the sensitive anniversary of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing (also known as Nanking in historical western texts but the actual pronunciation is Nanjing). During the Beijing Olympics signs were put up on bars stating: "no blacks or Mongolians allowed inside."
 
And finally, I know Thai people who've gone to live in New York city, one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. They have essentially NO non-Thai friends even after 5 years of US residency - not even other Asians, but no non-Thai friends (or at least no close ones). I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from. Chinese people I've known in Australia (mainly overseas students) typically only associate with other Chinese and at the end of their stays they haven't made one significant local Aussie or other non-Chinese friend.
 
Therefore, for anyone thinking it's going to be easy trying to befriend any of these new Chinese tourists in Thailand I'll give you a head-start. Most likely they'll only want to hang around each other and don't want to get to know you. There will always be exceptions, but unless one is traveling alone, most people of most nationalities will just want to hang out with one another and experience the local culture, without necessarily being interested in people from third countries/cultures. I guess that's what they came to Thailand for - to experience Thailand and Thai culture.

"...
I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge.

....
Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

 

With respect "T", you completely missed recognizing the innocuous use of a commonly used term in Australia at least - and hey, we have an indigenous population here and to my knowledge the phrase isn't banned yet, because nobody in society has thought to join the dots as you did. Therefore the writer's "racist" intention was zero in so using the words, and nor would he have been trying to be somewhat clever as you put it. Given the context, and in hindsight, an unfortunate choice of idiom - maybe? Goes to show that writers need to walk on eggshells to avoid completely unintended offense. Especially in our PC world.

 

[Thakkar]

 

 

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 
Although you have only just presented an opinion, let's face it, most people are most comfortable hanging around people who are similar to them in terms of language, culture and even appearance. This is not unique to westerners, who in fact are MORE exposed to people of other cultures due to their countries mostly being multicultural these days. Attempting to apply US style political correctness to a non-multicultural country like Thailand, in the hope that it might earn you some "brownie points" (with whom I wonder?) is not going to get you anywhere. Just look at the many examples of such discrimination in Thailand - case in point: Japanese bars at Patpong. Do they allow anyone non-Japanese inside, particularly a lone westerner, Chinese, even a Thai, anyone who isn't Japanese and/or who isn't in the company of other Japanese? NO! Why not? Well because they don't like non-Japanese! Their excuses? They think non-Japanese smell and they feel uncomfortable around them! Racist? You bet, but basically they just want to hang out with people who are from the same country as them, who understand their language and culture. What I don't get however is how can Thailand allow this? It's one thing if Japanese have their own rules in Japan, but surely they shouldn't be able to get away with it in Thailand? I could be way off here, but I doubt any Japanese bars in the States would be allowed to discriminate like this.
 
Then there's many types of businesses in China who don't allow Japanese inside, particularly during the sensitive anniversary of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing (also known as Nanking in historical western texts but the actual pronunciation is Nanjing). During the Beijing Olympics signs were put up on bars stating: "no blacks or Mongolians allowed inside."
 
And finally, I know Thai people who've gone to live in New York city, one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. They have essentially NO non-Thai friends even after 5 years of US residency - not even other Asians, but no non-Thai friends (or at least no close ones). I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from. Chinese people I've known in Australia (mainly overseas students) typically only associate with other Chinese and at the end of their stays they haven't made one significant local Aussie or other non-Chinese friend.
 
Therefore, for anyone thinking it's going to be easy trying to befriend any of these new Chinese tourists in Thailand I'll give you a head-start. Most likely they'll only want to hang around each other and don't want to get to know you. There will always be exceptions, but unless one is traveling alone, most people of most nationalities will just want to hang out with one another and experience the local culture, without necessarily being interested in people from third countries/cultures. I guess that's what they came to Thailand for - to experience Thailand and Thai culture.

"...
I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge.
....
Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

 
With respect "T", you completely missed recognizing the innocuous use of a commonly used term in Australia at least - and hey, we have an indigenous population here and to my knowledge the phrase isn't banned yet, because nobody in society has thought to join the dots as you did. Therefore the writer's "racist" intention was zero in so using the words, and nor would he have been trying to be somewhat clever as you put it. Given the context, and in hindsight, an unfortunate choice of idiom - maybe? Goes to show that writers need to walk on eggshells to avoid completely unintended offense. Especially in our PC world.

 

I didn't realize poster Tomtomtom69 had appointed a spokesperson to explain what he meant. If so, it is curious that someone of his eloquence should appoint someone less eloquent to speak for him.

T Edited August 4, 2014 by Thakkar

[mike324]

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 

perhaps they will kick the somchais out of the country too

[samran]

Yay, more diesel belching buses roaming around Pattaya going down narrow streets they just barely fit in. Hordes of wided eyed asians following the guy with the flag taking pictures of walking street.  

yes, watching the local freak show and it's beer bellied participants.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Berkshire]

 

I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from.

 

There are quite a few farangs in Thailand with this sort of attitude.  You're right, it makes no sense.

[iamariva1957]

I have read all of these posts regarding the original OP here and I have to say that the folks here on TV worry me a bit. for there seems to be a general attitude that Thailand is all about "girlie bars", "Soapies", or "message parlors". The rest of the world as uneducated as they are by the media regarding what Thailand is... as a country and peoples not to mention the culture... is bad enough without those of us that live here or that have traveled here enforcing those stereotypes. Thailand represents far more than what Soi Cowboy or Walking Street or Patong has to offer. The fact is that none of those places offers anything more than one can find in Vegas, New York, Paris, or Berlin (to name just 4). Okay maybe in Thailand things will be cheaper and easier to spot while walking... but it does not take a battery of investigators to find these places in other cities and countries. 

 

Try being divorces and want your kids to visit you in Thailand for their holidays. See if you can get your Ex or for that matter a court to say that it is okay for them to travel to Thailand. Simply based upon what the rest of the World thinks of Thailand will make that a difficult thing to accomplish (the present political situation excluded). 

 

Thailand has its 'problems' and there are quite a few that come for the sex tourism just as many go to New Orleans do for Mardi Gras (sp?). However there are far more who come here for the culture, the prices, the beaches, the temples, and to see the country that many will never come to visit again. So in my book it is sort of up to us to show what the 'real Thailand is about. It is not about the sex, or the soapies, or the message places.

[Tomtomtom69]

 

 

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 
Although you have only just presented an opinion, let's face it, most people are most comfortable hanging around people who are similar to them in terms of language, culture and even appearance. This is not unique to westerners, who in fact are MORE exposed to people of other cultures due to their countries mostly being multicultural these days. Attempting to apply US style political correctness to a non-multicultural country like Thailand, in the hope that it might earn you some "brownie points" (with whom I wonder?) is not going to get you anywhere. Just look at the many examples of such discrimination in Thailand - case in point: Japanese bars at Patpong. Do they allow anyone non-Japanese inside, particularly a lone westerner, Chinese, even a Thai, anyone who isn't Japanese and/or who isn't in the company of other Japanese? NO! Why not? Well because they don't like non-Japanese! Their excuses? They think non-Japanese smell and they feel uncomfortable around them! Racist? You bet, but basically they just want to hang out with people who are from the same country as them, who understand their language and culture. What I don't get however is how can Thailand allow this? It's one thing if Japanese have their own rules in Japan, but surely they shouldn't be able to get away with it in Thailand? I could be way off here, but I doubt any Japanese bars in the States would be allowed to discriminate like this.
 
Then there's many types of businesses in China who don't allow Japanese inside, particularly during the sensitive anniversary of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing (also known as Nanking in historical western texts but the actual pronunciation is Nanjing). During the Beijing Olympics signs were put up on bars stating: "no blacks or Mongolians allowed inside."
 
And finally, I know Thai people who've gone to live in New York city, one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. They have essentially NO non-Thai friends even after 5 years of US residency - not even other Asians, but no non-Thai friends (or at least no close ones). I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from. Chinese people I've known in Australia (mainly overseas students) typically only associate with other Chinese and at the end of their stays they haven't made one significant local Aussie or other non-Chinese friend.
 
Therefore, for anyone thinking it's going to be easy trying to befriend any of these new Chinese tourists in Thailand I'll give you a head-start. Most likely they'll only want to hang around each other and don't want to get to know you. There will always be exceptions, but unless one is traveling alone, most people of most nationalities will just want to hang out with one another and experience the local culture, without necessarily being interested in people from third countries/cultures. I guess that's what they came to Thailand for - to experience Thailand and Thai culture.

There isn't that much I disagree with, though I don't see what the things you say have to do with what I said.

Possibly, you've conflated what people's comfort levels are with how it's ok to behave in civilized society and in an inextricably interlinked world.

Wanting to "be with your own kind" is no excuse to damn others of a different "kind".

Besides, I've found that whenever I take the time and trouble to get to know people, no matter how different-looking, I find that we are invariably more similar than different. To get there it takes some work, an open mind, a willingness to engage and an unwillingness to allow oneself the comfort of knee jerk reactions. So it's not an exercise for the lazy or insular.

It's true that some immigrants don't integrate. But many do, and the reasons for both are varied. For example, when my parents emigrated, my dad integrated and had a ball. My mom didn't and was miserable. She wasn't racist, just shy and wary of new foods, smells and sounds. My dad integrated because he enjoyed eating, drinking and socializing. It wasn't because he wasn't racist (he wasn't, but that's less relevant).

I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge. I've also been very successful at winning people over and these people, years later, have expressed surprise and disgust at who they used to be. Hence I'm always optimistic that people can change. This is why I bother to debate rather than argue, why I try, as much as possible, to use humor rather than to lobe outright accusations.

Businesses following racist policies:
They do it because it's good for business, not necessarily because they're racist. Of course, it's still wrong to pander to the racism of your clients.

Racist behavior or attitudes by Thais doesn't make it ok for others to engage in same. It's wrong whoever does it. The wrongness of it stands on its own and is self evident. But there are also practical reasons. We now know that many of humanity's problems are interlinked, that solving them will require concerted efforts. We can't do that unless we eschew hate, respect each other, acknowledge our similarities and accept our differences.

Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

 

 

The main point I was trying to make with my rant is that foreigners, mostly westerners have now exported their PC to non-multicultural societies like Thailand, where it means nothing. As long as you aren't discriminating against Thais, most Thais won't care what you say about other non-Thais in Thailand and may even agree with you. Most Thais also have no concept of multiculturalism, why it's good to accept different cultures into their society and give them the same rights as afforded to you (at least eventually) or why everyone should just accept diversity. Thais generally don't like diversity. Ask them. They may say they aren't being racist, but in their own minds, they are perfectly happy with the current situation, which is a country that is largely homogeneous and where subtle discrimination, for example where foreigners pay more for admission to national parks etc. (even if not intended that way) seems to be acceptable. They can accept a small number of foreigners who they will forever treat as guests, but I think they wouldn't know what to make of their society IF it was anything like Australia, the USA, or Canada etc.

 

If Thais were to comment on this article half of them would be like: "oh no, not more Chinese" and the other half would be like "good for business" but that's about it. No one would bring up the race card even if some of the responses *might* border on racism, based on our western PC defined definition. BTW I can read Thai fluently and I occasionally read Thai forums so I know what they're saying.
 

I guess I can sum it up more succinctly: What do you (who is let's say American) have to gain from defending an unknown Nigerian/Sri Lankan/Chinese/Russian whatever person, from the opinions of other people towards them who know neither you nor them, when it doesn't provide you with any gains whatsoever, when the people affected most likely don't even know that you're trying to "protect" or "defend" them in some way?

 

To be honest this discussion has gone way off topic and I don't really care what people think about say Chinese people, Russian people or anyone else for that matter. There are advantages and disadvantages about hosting them, but that in no way means they are above criticism just like some of them don't shy away from criticising all westerners or just anyone who isn't Chinese. I was just surprised at all the posters who cried racism at some of the responses (or just in general), when they clearly aren't Chinese and therefore aren't the subject of that criticism. Anyway, having some friends from back home isn't a crime either and I have heard of relatively few people who have gone completely "native" avoiding all contact with anyone from back home.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

 

 

 

"...
I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge.
....
Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

 
With respect "T", you completely missed recognizing the innocuous use of a commonly used term in Australia at least - and hey, we have an indigenous population here and to my knowledge the phrase isn't banned yet, because nobody in society has thought to join the dots as you did. Therefore the writer's "racist" intention was zero in so using the words, and nor would he have been trying to be somewhat clever as you put it. Given the context, and in hindsight, an unfortunate choice of idiom - maybe? Goes to show that writers need to walk on eggshells to avoid completely unintended offense. Especially in our PC world.

 

I didn't realize poster Tomtomtom69 had appointed a spokesperson to explain what he meant. If so, it is curious that someone of his eloquence should appoint someone less eloquent to speak for him.

T

 

 

Good luck trying to fight racism in Thailand then Mr. "T". You're in for an uphill battle because you'll be overcharged (or at least there will be an attempt to overcharge) subject to dual pricing, even something as subtle as people not thinking you can speak Thai because of your physical appearance. I recall reading some recent articles about Asian-Americans and Asian-Europeans getting offended at black/white etc. locals asking them (and they are native born in all cases) as to how/why they can speak English/Swedish etc. so well, despite being very well intentioned comments? That might be going a bit far to react that way in Thailand for example, but let's remember that countries like Thailand are very different from the USA.

 

Geez I didn't think my post about simply pointing out the realities of life, about how people from similar countries GENERALLY stick together (especially if they are recent arrivals to a foreign country), how even OTHER nationals in Thailand (in this case Japanese who run bars) discriminate against both Thais and third party foreigners could generate so much defensiveness, even though my comments probably don't in any way affect your own particular case? Even if you were discriminated against or whatever when you were younger, unless you can change the world you aren't going to change much yourself, especially not in Thailand.

 

And just to clarify, I'm not a big user of such "eloquent" terms as you put it but the "brownie points" in this context simply means something like "oh, let me put another gold star on your homework!" i.e. in other words someone will give you an award for speaking out about a particular topic, like this one. As I said, I don't think anyone's really that impressed.

[Enjoyurlife]

Did we go off topic here? Just asking as I don't usually read posts longer then 1 word :)

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thakkar]

 

 

If some of these anti-Chinese TVF posters were put in charge of immigration, they'd ban all Chinese, Arabs, Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Kenyans, South Africans (except the white ones), Pakistanis, Israelis, Brits with names like "Ali", Bangladeshis...pretty soon, Thailand would have a thriving, Whites-only tourist industry--all high-spending, non-sexpaty, neat and tidy, well-behaved, temple-visiting quality tourists.

My guess is, they just want all the girlie bars, massage joints, soapies and cheap, hole-in-the-wall restaurants all to themselves. That's not racism, that's just selfishness.

T

 
Although you have only just presented an opinion, let's face it, most people are most comfortable hanging around people who are similar to them in terms of language, culture and even appearance. This is not unique to westerners, who in fact are MORE exposed to people of other cultures due to their countries mostly being multicultural these days. Attempting to apply US style political correctness to a non-multicultural country like Thailand, in the hope that it might earn you some "brownie points" (with whom I wonder?) is not going to get you anywhere. Just look at the many examples of such discrimination in Thailand - case in point: Japanese bars at Patpong. Do they allow anyone non-Japanese inside, particularly a lone westerner, Chinese, even a Thai, anyone who isn't Japanese and/or who isn't in the company of other Japanese? NO! Why not? Well because they don't like non-Japanese! Their excuses? They think non-Japanese smell and they feel uncomfortable around them! Racist? You bet, but basically they just want to hang out with people who are from the same country as them, who understand their language and culture. What I don't get however is how can Thailand allow this? It's one thing if Japanese have their own rules in Japan, but surely they shouldn't be able to get away with it in Thailand? I could be way off here, but I doubt any Japanese bars in the States would be allowed to discriminate like this.
 
Then there's many types of businesses in China who don't allow Japanese inside, particularly during the sensitive anniversary of the Japanese occupation of Nanjing (also known as Nanking in historical western texts but the actual pronunciation is Nanjing). During the Beijing Olympics signs were put up on bars stating: "no blacks or Mongolians allowed inside."
 
And finally, I know Thai people who've gone to live in New York city, one of the most multicultural cities on Earth. They have essentially NO non-Thai friends even after 5 years of US residency - not even other Asians, but no non-Thai friends (or at least no close ones). I don't understand how people can go to live abroad and not have even local friends, only making friends from the same cultural groups they came from. Chinese people I've known in Australia (mainly overseas students) typically only associate with other Chinese and at the end of their stays they haven't made one significant local Aussie or other non-Chinese friend.
 
Therefore, for anyone thinking it's going to be easy trying to befriend any of these new Chinese tourists in Thailand I'll give you a head-start. Most likely they'll only want to hang around each other and don't want to get to know you. There will always be exceptions, but unless one is traveling alone, most people of most nationalities will just want to hang out with one another and experience the local culture, without necessarily being interested in people from third countries/cultures. I guess that's what they came to Thailand for - to experience Thailand and Thai culture.

There isn't that much I disagree with, though I don't see what the things you say have to do with what I said.

Possibly, you've conflated what people's comfort levels are with how it's ok to behave in civilized society and in an inextricably interlinked world.

Wanting to "be with your own kind" is no excuse to damn others of a different "kind".

Besides, I've found that whenever I take the time and trouble to get to know people, no matter how different-looking, I find that we are invariably more similar than different. To get there it takes some work, an open mind, a willingness to engage and an unwillingness to allow oneself the comfort of knee jerk reactions. So it's not an exercise for the lazy or insular.

It's true that some immigrants don't integrate. But many do, and the reasons for both are varied. For example, when my parents emigrated, my dad integrated and had a ball. My mom didn't and was miserable. She wasn't racist, just shy and wary of new foods, smells and sounds. My dad integrated because he enjoyed eating, drinking and socializing. It wasn't because he wasn't racist (he wasn't, but that's less relevant).

I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge. I've also been very successful at winning people over and these people, years later, have expressed surprise and disgust at who they used to be. Hence I'm always optimistic that people can change. This is why I bother to debate rather than argue, why I try, as much as possible, to use humor rather than to lobe outright accusations.

Businesses following racist policies:
They do it because it's good for business, not necessarily because they're racist. Of course, it's still wrong to pander to the racism of your clients.

Racist behavior or attitudes by Thais doesn't make it ok for others to engage in same. It's wrong whoever does it. The wrongness of it stands on its own and is self evident. But there are also practical reasons. We now know that many of humanity's problems are interlinked, that solving them will require concerted efforts. We can't do that unless we eschew hate, respect each other, acknowledge our similarities and accept our differences.

Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T
 

 
The main point I was trying to make with my rant is that foreigners, mostly westerners have now exported their PC to non-multicultural societies like Thailand, where it means nothing. As long as you aren't discriminating against Thais, most Thais won't care what you say about other non-Thais in Thailand and may even agree with you. Most Thais also have no concept of multiculturalism, why it's good to accept different cultures into their society and give them the same rights as afforded to you (at least eventually) or why everyone should just accept diversity. Thais generally don't like diversity. Ask them. They may say they aren't being racist, but in their own minds, they are perfectly happy with the current situation, which is a country that is largely homogeneous and where subtle discrimination, for example where foreigners pay more for admission to national parks etc. (even if not intended that way) seems to be acceptable. They can accept a small number of foreigners who they will forever treat as guests, but I think they wouldn't know what to make of their society IF it was anything like Australia, the USA, or Canada etc.
 
If Thais were to comment on this article half of them would be like: "oh no, not more Chinese" and the other half would be like "good for business" but that's about it. No one would bring up the race card even if some of the responses *might* border on racism, based on our western PC defined definition. BTW I can read Thai fluently and I occasionally read Thai forums so I know what they're saying.
 
I guess I can sum it up more succinctly: What do you (who is let's say American) have to gain from defending an unknown Nigerian/Sri Lankan/Chinese/Russian whatever person, from the opinions of other people towards them who know neither you nor them, when it doesn't provide you with any gains whatsoever, when the people affected most likely don't even know that you're trying to "protect" or "defend" them in some way?
 
To be honest this discussion has gone way off topic and I don't really care what people think about say Chinese people, Russian people or anyone else for that matter. There are advantages and disadvantages about hosting them, but that in no way means they are above criticism just like some of them don't shy away from criticising all westerners or just anyone who isn't Chinese. I was just surprised at all the posters who cried racism at some of the responses (or just in general), when they clearly aren't Chinese and therefore aren't the subject of that criticism. Anyway, having some friends from back home isn't a crime either and I have heard of relatively few people who have gone completely "native" avoiding all contact with anyone from back home.

Again, not much that I disagree with, except your main point. :)

It is interesting that from the same basic agreements and indeed similar sentiments, you and I come to different conclusions. Your stance against political correctness while common and, in your case, clearly innocuous, is wrong. Far too many people have fallen into the habit of using the term "PC" in a disdainful way. We cannot control people's hateful thoughts, but we can certainly demand that, in the public sphere, they keep those thoughts to themselves; that modern civilized, enlightened society does not tolerate intolerance. Why is demanding civilized behaviors something to sneer at? The exporting of this (if that's indeed what's happening) should be encouraged, not lamented. PC may mean nothing now to most Thais. That will change.

While Thailand may appear at first glance to be homogeneous, we know it isn't. There's an appreciable contingent of Chinese, Indian, Muslim and a few other minorities that have, for the most part, integrated well even while maintaining their traditions. And let's not forget the roughly 2 to 3 million expats and long-stay tourists from around the world. Thailand is less homogeneous than HK (though certainly more insular). A lot of behavior and speech that was commonplace even two decades ago in HK is now rightly frowned upon. Even unsophisticated new Chinese immigrants quickly learn what is acceptable public behavior. New, enlightened attitudes take time to take hold, but can rapidly become pervasive.

Clearly a majority of Thais are highly insular and, yes, racist. That's no reason to despair. We often see things as they are, and, despite all evidence to the contrary, assume that that is how they always will be.

People everywhere are nothing if not practical. Tourism is a major Thai industry, and becoming bigger. Tourism demographics are changing. More Asians are traveling. That's where the growth is. Thailand and Thais are adapting to the new reality. Thais will become more tolerant, if only because it's good business. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is not ideal. Still, the right thing gets done. Soon enough "the right thing" becomes simply "the thing." Attitudes among the young are changing too. Much of intolerance is borne of ignorance and the young--part of an ever more connected world--are shedding insular attitudes faster than their parents. I am more hopeful than you are and would like to think that you have simply failed to see the forest for the trees. I am in favor of importing commendable Western attitudes of greater tolerance and eventually institutionalizing such attitudes into law.

Double pricing is little more than a predatory business practice however it may be justified (Thais pay taxes, foreigners don't, etc. The problem with this--in itself a dubious--argument is that when an official body does it, it gives license to the drinks cart guy to do likewise). This practice shouldn't be conflated with Thai racism as it's a distraction from the main debate.

T

[Tomtomtom69]

 

Again, not much that I disagree with, except your main point.

It is interesting that from the same basic agreements and indeed similar sentiments, you and I come to different conclusions. Your stance against political correctness while common and, in your case, clearly innocuous, is wrong. Far too many people have fallen into the habit of using the term "PC" in a disdainful way. We cannot control people's hateful thoughts, but we can certainly demand that, in the public sphere, they keep those thoughts to themselves; that modern civilized, enlightened society does not tolerate intolerance. Why is demanding civilized behaviors something to sneer at? The exporting of this (if that's indeed what's happening) should be encouraged, not lamented. PC may mean nothing now to most Thais. That will change.

While Thailand may appear at first glance to be homogeneous, we know it isn't. There's an appreciable contingent of Chinese, Indian, Muslim and a few other minorities that have, for the most part, integrated well even while maintaining their traditions. And let's not forget the roughly 2 to 3 million expats and long-stay tourists from around the world. Thailand is less homogeneous than HK (though certainly more insular). A lot of behavior and speech that was commonplace even two decades ago in HK is now rightly frowned upon. Even unsophisticated new Chinese immigrants quickly learn what is acceptable public behavior. New, enlightened attitudes take time to take hold, but can rapidly become pervasive.

Clearly a majority of Thais are highly insular and, yes, racist. That's no reason to despair. We often see things as they are, and, despite all evidence to the contrary, assume that that is how they always will be.

People everywhere are nothing if not practical. Tourism is a major Thai industry, and becoming bigger. Tourism demographics are changing. More Asians are traveling. That's where the growth is. Thailand and Thais are adapting to the new reality. Thais will become more tolerant, if only because it's good business. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is not ideal. Still, the right thing gets done. Soon enough "the right thing" becomes simply "the thing." Attitudes among the young are changing too. Much of intolerance is borne of ignorance and the young--part of an ever more connected world--are shedding insular attitudes faster than their parents. I am more hopeful than you are and would like to think that you have simply failed to see the forest for the trees. I am in favor of importing commendable Western attitudes of greater tolerance and eventually institutionalizing such attitudes into law.

Double pricing is little more than a predatory business practice however it may be justified (Thais pay taxes, foreigners don't, etc. The problem with this--in itself a dubious--argument is that when an official body does it, it gives license to the drinks cart guy to do likewise). This practice shouldn't be conflated with Thai racism as it's a distraction from the main debate.

T

 

 

I mostly agree with you too - just that I think it won't be that easy to change attitudes here. But if you or anyone else wants to try, I would certainly encourage you to do so. Even I've tried, but generally not to the point that I would want to interfere with a local's opinions on a particular nationality (because I don't see that as affecting me personally), but more on something that can affect everyone, something like dual pricing which I see as being fundamentally wrong. As we expats know, in many cases even our work permits and taxes paid often still mean nothing at some national parks...it's our physical appearance and lack of a Thai ID card which does.
 

[AYJAYDEE]

 

 

Again, not much that I disagree with, except your main point.

It is interesting that from the same basic agreements and indeed similar sentiments, you and I come to different conclusions. Your stance against political correctness while common and, in your case, clearly innocuous, is wrong. Far too many people have fallen into the habit of using the term "PC" in a disdainful way. We cannot control people's hateful thoughts, but we can certainly demand that, in the public sphere, they keep those thoughts to themselves; that modern civilized, enlightened society does not tolerate intolerance. Why is demanding civilized behaviors something to sneer at? The exporting of this (if that's indeed what's happening) should be encouraged, not lamented. PC may mean nothing now to most Thais. That will change.

While Thailand may appear at first glance to be homogeneous, we know it isn't. There's an appreciable contingent of Chinese, Indian, Muslim and a few other minorities that have, for the most part, integrated well even while maintaining their traditions. And let's not forget the roughly 2 to 3 million expats and long-stay tourists from around the world. Thailand is less homogeneous than HK (though certainly more insular). A lot of behavior and speech that was commonplace even two decades ago in HK is now rightly frowned upon. Even unsophisticated new Chinese immigrants quickly learn what is acceptable public behavior. New, enlightened attitudes take time to take hold, but can rapidly become pervasive.

Clearly a majority of Thais are highly insular and, yes, racist. That's no reason to despair. We often see things as they are, and, despite all evidence to the contrary, assume that that is how they always will be.

People everywhere are nothing if not practical. Tourism is a major Thai industry, and becoming bigger. Tourism demographics are changing. More Asians are traveling. That's where the growth is. Thailand and Thais are adapting to the new reality. Thais will become more tolerant, if only because it's good business. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is not ideal. Still, the right thing gets done. Soon enough "the right thing" becomes simply "the thing." Attitudes among the young are changing too. Much of intolerance is borne of ignorance and the young--part of an ever more connected world--are shedding insular attitudes faster than their parents. I am more hopeful than you are and would like to think that you have simply failed to see the forest for the trees. I am in favor of importing commendable Western attitudes of greater tolerance and eventually institutionalizing such attitudes into law.

Double pricing is little more than a predatory business practice however it may be justified (Thais pay taxes, foreigners don't, etc. The problem with this--in itself a dubious--argument is that when an official body does it, it gives license to the drinks cart guy to do likewise). This practice shouldn't be conflated with Thai racism as it's a distraction from the main debate.

T

 

 

I mostly agree with you too - just that I think it won't be that easy to change attitudes here. But if you or anyone else wants to try, I would certainly encourage you to do so. Even I've tried, but generally not to the point that I would want to interfere with a local's opinions on a particular nationality (because I don't see that as affecting me personally), but more on something that can affect everyone, something like dual pricing which I see as being fundamentally wrong. As we expats know, in many cases even our work permits and taxes paid often still mean nothing at some national parks...it's our physical appearance and lack of a Thai ID card which does.
 

 

is there no dual pricing of any sort in the country you came from?

[thaitakeaway]

 

 

ience Thailand and Thai culture."...
I grew up in a racist society and spent my life both fighting and living with racism. I recognize it when I see it, whether it is in writing or looks and gestures. It hits me like the burst of cold air one gets when opening a fridge.
....
Finally, I think I understand your use of the term "brownie points"--it may have sounded somewhat clever in your head, but I think it's a low blow, and uncalled for.

With respect,

T

 
With respect "T", you completely missed recognizing the innocuous use of a commonly used term in Australia at least - and hey, we have an indigenous population here and to my knowledge the phrase isn't banned yet, because nobody in society has thought to join the dots as you did. Therefore the writer's "racist" intention was zero in so using the words, and nor would he have been trying to be somewhat clever as you put it. Given the context, and in hindsight, an unfortunate choice of idiom - maybe? Goes to show that writers need to walk on eggshells to avoid completely unintended offense. Especially in our PC world.

I didn't realize poster Tomtomtom69 had appointed a spokesperson to explain what he meant. If so, it is curious that someone of his eloquence should appoint someone less eloquent to speak for him.

T

u'r welcum. I werk for nothin, jus tryin to be all kinda helpfool 'n all. But I'm proud that I triggered you to later use the word "innocuous" (see your post #80). Clever me, super powers. Better up my rate for next time.

[212traders]

Supposedly the visa fee is waived and they get landing visa. However, I have Taiwanese friends who just entered Thailand 2 days ago. The immigration officers charged them 200 Bahts each for "handling fee". But when my friends asked for a receipt, the officers said, "No receipts." It's kind of like extortion.