UK Visa for Thai wife in Munich

[beano2274]

Thinking of taking my wife to the UK with me for a long weekend soon, and noticed this on the UK Visa website:

User Pays charges

There will be a charge of £59 (payable in Euros) to use the Visa Application Centres in Berlin and Munich. This will be in addition to the visa fee and will be charged in Euros using the consular rate of exchange at the point of booking the appointment. It will cover the cost of providing the application submission facilities. The Centre in Dusseldorf will remain free of charge.

What the hell is going on with this Government, 59GBP extra just to do the biometrics and send the stuff to Dusseldorf. They took this job away from the consulate now we are paying 83GBP for the visa and over 70% extra for the privilege of an outside agency reducing the work load on the consulate staff.

[beano2274]

And just looking at VFS Global in Bangkok, there are no additional charges made.

[Donutz]

Why do you think the misses (Thai) and I (Dutchy) probably won't bother going to the UK for a long weekend or week any time soon. Now with the new visa4uk website the info is even harder to find but we sure ain't going to pay silly handling or service costs (and the visa itself should be free for EU/EAA family members). Better of spending our holiday money elsewhere in Europe.

The UK administration must hate euro's... And pounds too (having to pay in dollars in Thailand). The only thing I like about the current UK administration is that Nick Glegg speaks fluent Dutch. And that isn't really important at all, so...

[beano2274]

just go a great answer to an email i sent to the UKVI website asking why I had to pay more for the Visa from Munich than from Dusseldorf

Thank you for contacting the UK Visas and Immigration International EnquiryService. We deeply appreciate that you have taken the time to write us. I'm afraidwe will not be able to provide you with the reason why.  We hope that this has answered your query. You can email us back with yourdetails by visiting the following link ( link removed), select appropriatecountry, click next and then select "e-mail form" and complete as instructed. We aim to reply to youwithin 1 working day. Kind Regards,  Name removed but not an English surname

[7by7]

Typical response from them.

You may want to try asking James Brokenshire, the Immigration Minister, directly

James Brokenshire MP
Immigration and Security Minister
Home Office
2 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DF

Telephone: 020 7035 4848

Email: [email protected]

But I suspect his reply will also be meaningless waffle.

Name removed but not an English surname

Welsh? Irish? Scottish?

Edited August 5, 2014 by 7by7

[Donutz]

The answering of questions is apparantly also done by an external source. I mailed then a while ago about the options available on how to obtain a visa either in advance or at the border. Only got a 2-3 line answer linking me to the EU/EAA application webpage on ukgov. The one I mentioned myself but did not cover in sufficient detail about how to proceed from the NL. Waste of time, the question was answered by a Japanese based lady.

And now with the new website even more basic info I seem to need to create an account? Hardly an improvement I'd say...

[beano2274]

Typical response from them.

You may want to try asking James Brokenshire, the Immigration Minister, directly

James Brokenshire MP

Immigration and Security Minister

Home Office

2 Marsham Street

London

SW1P 4DF

Telephone: 020 7035 4848

Email: [email protected]

But I suspect his reply will also be meaningless waffle.

Name removed but not an English surname

Welsh? Irish? Scottish?

Was a Vietnamese sounding name

[7by7]

So?

Many Vietnamese refugees settled in the UK after the Vietnam war and even if they are not now British citizens themselves, their children are.

There is no reason I can see why someone with a Vietnamese name cannot work for UKVI.

The situation you have described is outrageous; but you will lose sympathy if you bring the race of UKVI staff into it.

Would you have made the same comment if the respondent had a Thai sounding name?

Edited August 9, 2014 by 7by7

[Donutz]

I think (hope!) that Beano's point was that the UKVI service of answering questions has gone down the drain aswell. It has been over 3 months ago but I think the visa4uk (demo) site said that they outsourced the answering of questions aswell? I got my mail answered and it was not helpful at all.

I mailed them asking about getting a visa at the border under 2004/38/ec or if it would be possible to get a EU/EAA visa from the Netherlands without any (indirect) cost at all since according to the EU the visa should be free though the UKVI page directs me to an external party which will charge service costs. So how would I go about obtaining an entirely free visa for my partner? I even numbered the questions so it should have been a sraight forward Q&A reply, not so...

Their answer:

"Dear .... Thank you for contacting the UK Visas and Immigrations International Enquiry service. I am afraid that you need to decide yourself which visa she needs. Please follow the link below for checking yourself which visa you need; https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa

Which did not answer my question at all since I pointed out that the UKVI visa page did not anser my question...

So unless memoory fails me, they now use people around the globe to answer querries? Which would explain the poor response since they aren't actually trained and experience UKVI officials who know all about procedures, regulations etc. but who wil either copy/paste answers from a cheat sheet or simply direct you back to the UK webpage on visa rather then answering more complex or less regular questions.

Edit: just to be clear, the person who answered this mail (and an other regarding an earlier question sent to UKVI with an even less useful anwer by an other person) surely tried to respectfully and genuinly answer my question, I'm sure the intention to help me was there, but the lack of actual hands on experience and knowledge shows. Not blaming the staff here but who ever decided that this is a good setup to answer questions directed to UKVI.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Donutz

[Donutz]

Concerning EAA applications, I came across somebody who pointe me to this:

The UK is systematically violating EU free movement law, by refusing family member visas for reasons that are explicitly prohibited by Directive 2004/38/EC and relevant ECJ case law:

1. British visa officers (ECOs) are refusing family member visas because the EU citizen has not proven that they will likely find employment when they eventually travel to the UK, or because the EU citizen has not proven they have assets to support themselves once in the UK

2. ECOs are refusing visas to spouses of EU citizens when the ECO suspects a marriage of convenience but has done nothing to test their suspicions. We have found no instance of ECOs requesting additional supporting evidence about the relationship or asking to interview the applicant or their EU spouse before refusing the application

3. An ECO explicitly took into consideration the current economic climate in the UK, even though this is explicitly forbidden by Directive 2004/38/EC

4. UKBA and ECOs are requiring applicants to answer questions which are non-material to the issue of a family member visa, and which are prohibited by C-68/89 Commission v Netherlands [1991]

5. Anyone wishing to exercise their right of appeal must pay a fee of at least £80. When the visa is finally issued, the applicant will have paid that amount for their EEA FP, even though the visa must be issued for free

6. Visa applications are not given priority processing. Some UK visa offices appear to process the applications at the same (slow) speed as UK-law settlement visas

UKBAs guidance, training material, and day-to-day administrative practice lead to a consistent and ongoing breach of the Directive in a ways directly precluded by established free movement case law.

Material released by the UK Border Agency (UKBA) in response to Freedom Of Information (FOI) requests show that their officers are being actively trained to evaluate & refuse applications in ways which are unambiguously in violation of EU free movement law.

The impact is large. The UKBA refused 4,500 EEA FP applications in 2011, approximately 20% of all applications, with some visa offices rejecting more than 50%. The dismal quality of the refusals, documented in the following sections, suggests that a very large number of these were incorrectly refused. This amounts to a substantial impediment to the free movement rights of each of the EU citizens involved.

In none of the cases would UKBA dare to directly block the EU citizen from directly entering the UK. Instead they are using the family members visa application to achieve the same effect.

Source: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/is-uk-handling-of-eea-family-permit-visas-still-a-problem/

[Donutz]

And to be fair, there info on EU/EAA family member applications is even better then my FAQ.

Requirements for a visa (for family members of EU citizen)

For a visa to be issued on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC, only the following requirements need to be satisfied:

The visa applicant is a direct family member of an EU citizen and has proof (marriage or birth certificate or some combination) of the relationship)

The visa applicant will be travelling with, or joining, the EU citizen for a visit or permanent move to an EU member state. (If they are going to the home country of the EU citizen, then there can be a requirement that the EU citizen had previously lived/worked in a different member state)

All travellers require a passport (or a national ID card for the EU citizen)

These are the legal requirements for all of the EU/EEA member states, including all Schengen members, the UK, Ireland, Romania and Bulgaria. They also apply for Switzerland.

If the family member has a Residence Card for a family member of an EU citizen, then they do not require a visa. (Only the UK does not implement this).

Where a visa is required, Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge, as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

There is no legal requirement that:

The EU citizen is already (or will be) living or working in a different EU member state

The non-EU family member holds a specific immigration visa or status. It is fine for them to have a nationally issued visa or a student visa or a visitors visa or even implied status

The family member apply in their country of origin

The family member resides or previously resided in the EU/EEA (This older requirement of some member states was overturned in several ECJ cases, especially Metock)

There is also no legal requirement that you submit:

bank statements

pay slips

letters from your present or future employer or school

letters of reference

proof that you will return at the end of the trip

airline tickets

confirmed hotel bookings

references or guarantees from people in the destination country

Please contact the European Commissions free Solvit service if you have any problems or are required to provide these things. If they can not help, you can easily make a complaint directly to the European Commission.

(...)

Source: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/requirements-for-a-short-stay-visa-family-of-eu-citizen/

[beano2274]

Donutz - If i read your post correctly then my wife can apply to go on a visit to the UK with me under the EEC Directive.

7by7 - it was not meant to be racist but a fact that the answers from UKVI are non informative, and a waste of time.

Like many organisations around the world are you sure that this is not outsourced to another company with offices in another country!!!! Since the UKVI outsource most of their work.

[theoldgit]

I found SOLVIT to be very helpful, they described themselves as a facilitator and certainly got the the EU State I was having problems with to toe the line. They don't deal with actual complaints, just get things done, and it worked for me.

The lady who dealt with my issue, certainly didn't have an English name - not a dig Beano :-)

[Donutz]

Donutz - If i read your post correctly then my wife can apply to go on a visit to the UK with me under the EEC Directive.

7by7 - it was not meant to be racist but a fact that the answers from UKVI are non informative, and a waste of time.

Like many organisations around the world are you sure that this is not outsourced to another company with offices in another country!!!! Since the UKVI outsource most of their work.

Are you a British national living in Germany with your wife? Then your wife has an resIdence permit issued under directive 2004/38/EC "family member of EU/EAA national" on it (in German it might be something along the lines of "Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige eines Unionsbürgers" or "Familien Staatsangehöriger eines Mitgliedstaates der EU/EWR-Staaten" ?) then she would be able to travel visa free.

Sadly for us but fortunately for you the UK only accepts these residence cards if issued by Germany or Estonia due to some silly (nonense) security reason (other cards are not secure enough? even though for instance a Dutch card is identical in design and has a chip too). You can verify this via the EU webpage on travel for EU family members or the directive. See the sticky.

If you are a non British person traveling to the UK with your wife you'd be advised to get a visa in advance though they should issue one at the border. Usually does not seem to work for flights (they refuse boarding) but via the ferry seems to work, aslong as you can make it to the border (UK borderguards to be exact).

That is the theory atleast, in practise especially airliners may make things difficult as may some borderguards. I have no experience myself regarding obtaining an EU/EAA visa in advance (seems like too much work and it isn't entrely free either...) or turning up at the border and get one there from the borderguard. As my FAQ and the above mention, you shouldn't need a lot of paperwork but some officials tent to ask for more then required. It might be easier to just hand such documents if it's only a small trouble to you. On one hand they will never learn if people comply with silly requests but on the other hand you just want to travel with minimum hassle...

[beano2274]

To clear up a point I made earlier about UKVI outsourcing the help desk here is a snippet from Teleperformance who do the sourcing in Munich.

From 1 April 2014 UK visa customers will be able to use the new international enquiry service to find information about the visa application process.

The service is provided by Hinduja Global Solutions (HGS) working in partnership with UK Visas and Immigration to offer enquiry services to people applying for a visa.

[beano2274]

Sent another email to UKVI asking if my wife required a permit as we fly in November, sent in the evening answered the same evening around midnight UK time, so it is outsourced. Here the answer>

Thank you for contacting the UK Visas and Immigrations Internationalenquiry service.  Regarding your query, could you follow this link to check whether you needa visa and supporting documents?https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa      If the applicant is a resident lawfully in one country, the applicantnormally can apply for the UK visa.  Could you please have a look information thoroughly so that you do not makea mistake on the application. HOW TO SUBMIT A UK VISA APPLICATION on https://visa4uk.fco.gov.uk/1. It is strongly recommended to ensure the accuracy throughout. If it isnot completed accurately, it may be considered by the ECO(entry clearanceofficer) as a form of deception. Therefore, could you please double checkinformation correctly and selecting drop-down menu correctly includingyes/no question.2.  Could you please use Internet Explorer 10, 9 and 8; Chrome 30 and29;Firefox 25. If you are not using one of the tested Web Browsers you mayencounter errors when creating your account and applications. Please do notuse browsers on the Mac computer which is incompatible.  3.  Could you please ensure you enter the correct current location detailsof the applicant at all stages of the application. This will affect theappointment options, and will produce error messages if United Kingdom hasbeen entered.4. You can only register an account once against any single email address.You can use thesame email again in future if you are applying for someone else or if youare an agent. 5. If you receive a message that the website is busy, then please try againas we may be experiencing a busy period. 6.When you have completed your online application, you will receive anemail message containing your GWF application number Please make a note ofthis number. Your appointment must be no more than 90 days after the dateyou completed and submitted your online visa application form.7.Before you sign your application form, you must ensure that theinformation on the form is correct and your supporting documents aregenuine and unaltered. If you do not have a document you should explain whyyou do not have it. You must not provide a false document.8.Could you please bear in mind that the applicant cannot amend the form ifhe/she has already submitted the paperwork to the VAC(visa applicationcentre). Once all submitted, it is out of control by the service user. theapplicant can not contact for both the application centre and the BritishHigh Commission due to no telephone number.  The submission of document foryour visa application is completed up to this point of time that theapplicant attended to the biometrics and handed over documents.  9.Please note: The online payment will be taken prior to the appointmentbeing confirmed. Visa4UK will guide an applicant to book an appointment,which will be held for 3 hours pending successful payment. 10. The applicant will need to cancel the application (request a refund ifappropriate) and submit a new application. If you have applied for thewrong visa category, you will need to withdraw your application andreapply. Please follow the guidance above to request a refund, and thenbegin a new application.11. To enable a UK visa to be placed in a passport, there needs to be atleast one full page available which is blank on both sides.It is strongly recommended that the applicant should not buy an inflexibleflight ticket and pay an accommodation cost in advance until the applicantactually obtain the visa in their hand. It is the applicant'sresponsibility of entire financial loss to purchase non refundable flightticket. We are unable to expedite fast-track applications solely because ofplanned date of travel.  Please note: Your visa application will be assessed and decided by theBritish High Commission. Neither HGS UK, nor any of our staff, assess yourapplication and are unable to influence the outcome of your visaapplication. 

Do these people read the emails, and know the procedures in the UK. How does one make an official complaint, as this service is wasting money.

Edited October 8, 2014 by beano2274

[Donutz]

Lol, well I bet they do try to answer any queries to the best of there ability, sadly with copy/pasting as it is evident that they do not have hands on experience or throughout knowledge of UK policies, laws and EU laws. And I don't suppose there is anyway to notify UKVI about less usefull outsourced copy/paste replies.

Edit: a link at the bottom with short form regarding custumer satisfaction probably would be too much to ask for? And not useful at all to see either. Or do they expect people to keep on asking or eventually give up?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Donutz

[beano2274]

made an official complaint and got a nice letter from the UKVI informing me that my wife just needed her Residence permit

[beano2274]

If anyone needs the address let me know and will either post it or PM it