Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[sustento]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

Why has one of the photos got a National Geographic imprint on it? Did NG write an article about the tunnels?

[Morch]

How does one conduct an independent investigation in Gaza Strip while Hamas is in charge?

Same as they did in 2009 ...the report by respected jurist Richard Goldstone, which Israel as per usual refused to cooperate with.

It's very hard to assess Israeli claims that when they bomb a school, hospital or refugee center they act with the utmost care to avoid civilian casualties, when they won't even allow their own soldiers to be interviewed. Sounds like they have something to hide...and we all know they have!

From the report itself:

In its efforts to gather more direct information on the subject, during its investigations in Gaza and in interviews with victims and

witnesses of incidents and other informed individuals, the Mission raised questions regarding the conduct of Palestinian armed

groups during the hostilities in Gaza. The Mission notes that those interviewed in Gaza appeared reluctant to speak about the

presence of or conduct of hostilities by the Palestinian armed groups. Whatever the reasons for their reluctance, the Mission

does not discount that the interviewees’ reluctance may have stemmed from a fear of reprisals.

The Mission also addressed questions regarding the tactics used by Palestinian armed groups to the Gaza authorities. They

responded that they had nothing to do, directly or indirectly, with al-Qassam Brigades or other armed groups and had no knowledge

of their tactics. To gather first-hand information on the matter, the Mission requested a meeting with representatives of armed groups.

However, the groups were not agreeable to such a meeting. The Mission, consequently, had little option but to rely upon indirect sources

to a greater extent than for other parts of its investigation.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf (paragraph 440 & 441).

[up-country_sinclair]

They would if they could ... so Israel needs to make sure they CAN'T.

A perfect illustration for why the free thinking people of world are no longer paying attention to the perpetual clarion call of Israeli victimhood.

"The free thinking people of world". I.e. the haters of Israel who could care less if it is destroyed by Islamic terrorists.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Morch]

Maybe you should read the article written by the Rabbi linked to earlier; Rabbi does mean teacher, does it not?

I already read it. I also Googled him. He is a far left activist who has been demonizing Israel and America for years - pretty much what I expected.

Does being a far left activist and demoniser of America or Israel exclude his comprehensive and nuanced views from consideration?

Whose views are we allowed to listen to?

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Hi cheerbyle!

Each to his own opinions, but when presenting sources of information and quoting opinion it is not always bad practice to point out some consistant and inherent biases associated with the author. Some people definitely get on the wagon whenever there's a bashing of whatever they are against, regardless of the circumstances (meant in general, not as in referring only for this topic). I personally find that having a clue as to author's (or publication's) agenda provides me with better understanding of the position presented.

Doesn't mean automatic dismissal of opinion, but at the same time, not all opinions are to be taken at face value.

[Kalebiran]

The Israeli apologists, the noises off vocal few on TVisa,can not defend the accusation of "war crimes"IDF did not identify civilians successfully on many hits when attacking so called"military targets" in Gaza. Of course Israel are not signatories to the International Criminal Court along with the other biggest state killer, the serial offender the USA. Two peas in a pod, joined at the hypocritical hip.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Kalebiran

[Ulysses G.]

They would if they could ... so Israel needs to make sure they CAN'T.

A perfect illustration for why the free thinking people of world are no longer paying attention to the perpetual clarion call of Israeli victimhood.

"The free thinking people of world". I.e. the haters of Israel who could care less if it is destroyed by Islamic terrorists.

Thanks for proving my point.

No problem. You have proved my point over and over again on these threads and anyone that has been reading your posts knows it.

[Steely Dan]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

I doubt that any Israel demonizers minds can be changed by ANYTHING. So many of them are Hamas SUPPORTERS. That means they agree with the charter of Hamas -- to take over all of Israel from the Jews and to kill the million of Jews there that can't/won't flee. So such people would be HAPPY if such attacks were not prevented.[/quote

Indeed had such an attack been carried out successfully I suspect the Israel haters would be to busy dancing on their rooftops to post here.

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[Morch]

The AQ angle (or, for that matter Islamic Jihad) has more to do with domestic politics for the control of the Gaza Strip than

with Israel.

Wrong. In the quote, the AQ leader specifically criticizes them for joining peace processes with Israel. You posted the link, you should know.

The line you quoted from my post in which the link is this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html?pagewanted=all

As far as I can tell AQ is not mentioned there at all.

If you are referring to another link posted by me, do point out where (unless I'm reading wrong the reference was to a source

you quoted, rather than me, but could be wrong).

Either way - I am not wrong in the least. There are other outfits in the Gaza Strip which challenge Hamas for control and for

prestige. The most prominent is Islamic Jihad, with AQ presence still relatively minor. The criticism about Hamas going soft

is related to these struggles, as well as ideological differences. Worth noting that this time around Islamic Jihad was actually

in favor of Egypt playing moderator - as Islamic Jihad is not a Muslim Brotherhood outfit, less bad blood with Egypt's current

regime, and another way to poke Hamas on the domestic front.

It was the reuters link you provided

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/03/12/us-palestinians-qaeda-idUSL1229777020070312

"In an audio recording posted on the Internet on Sunday, al Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri accused Hamas of serving U.S. interests by agreeing to respect past Palestinian peace accords with Israel in a recent Saudi-brokered unity government deal with moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah."

Alright. So how does this make your assertion that I'm "wrong" right? There is an ongoing struggle between Hamas and other organizations about prestige (as in who's the most hardline and bad-ass of them all). A lot of the criticism directed at Hamas should be understood in this context. Not so different from Hamas's own criticism of the Fatah.

[Morch]

This may change some peoples minds.

Another side to the story, would have been worse than 9/11.

Stories From The Battlefield: Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/stories-from-the-battlefield-hamas-tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/#ixzz38o07e37G

I doubt that any Israel demonizers minds can be changed by ANYTHING. So many of them are Hamas SUPPORTERS. That means they agree with the charter of Hamas -- to take over all of Israel from the Jews and to kill the million of Jews there that can't/won't flee. So such people would be HAPPY if such attacks were not prevented.

I don't think I could be counted as demonizing Israel, but the article is indeed low quality and hyperbolic. It also misses out on a couple of major related issues which occupy the attention of the Israeli press.

To begin with, the tunnels are definitely a threat. Even is their application is not as dramatic, wide spread and coordinated as the article suggests, they still allow terrorists access inside Israel and near enough to civilian settlements. That, by itself, is already a successes as far as inducing terror goes, even without that many successful attacks. The idea that armed men could pop out of the ground anywhere and attack is not something easy to live with.

Not aware of any non-wacko media source citing the all encompassing attack scenario put forward in the article. Even if it was a correct report, the main question I would immediately ask is - "and what was Israeli intelligence doing while this was planned?". Seriously, if this was a real plan, and Israel did not know about it beforehand, I'd say this itself is a major issue.

Now, according to most ongoing media reports, the tunnel issue was not new or unknown entirely, and that relates both to the IDF and the government. The issues were more of bad assessment of the threat, figuring out a technological solution, developing proper training for combat and, and bringing all of these factors together. While the blame game in Israel goes on, it seems like there's no single target for the finger-pointing, but someone, somewhere, will pay the price.

[Morch]

The Israeli apologists, the noises off vocal few on TVisa,can not defend the accusation of "war crimes"IDF did not identify civilians successfully on many hits when attacking so called"military targets" in Gaza. Of course Israel are not signatories to the International Criminal Court along with the other biggest state killer, the serial offender the USA. Two peas in a pod, joined at the hypocritical hip.

How do you feel about Thailand, then?

[Kalebiran]

The Israeli apologists, the noises off vocal few on TVisa,can not defend the accusation of "war crimes"IDF did not identify civilians successfully on many hits when attacking so called"military targets" in Gaza. Of course Israel are not signatories to the International Criminal Court along with the other biggest state killer, the serial offender the USA. Two peas in a pod, joined at the hypocritical hip.

How do you feel about Thailand, then?

ahhh.....the best defense and only defense of Israels action? On the day broadcasters in the Uk launch a nationwide appeal for Gaza for the thousands of homeless, sick and wounded,in 2009 DEC declined to have nationwide appeal but this time it has,for a state bombed with 2000 killed ,10000 wounded and 500000 displaced by a so called"civilised state". http://bbc.com/news/uk-28683092 Edited August 7, 2014 by Kalebiran

[Morch]

The Israeli apologists, the noises off vocal few on TVisa,can not defend the accusation of "war crimes"IDF did not identify civilians successfully on many hits when attacking so called"military targets" in Gaza. Of course Israel are not signatories to the International Criminal Court along with the other biggest state killer, the serial offender the USA. Two peas in a pod, joined at the hypocritical hip.

How do you feel about Thailand, then?

ahhh.....the best defense and only defense of Israels action? On the day broadcasters in the Uk launch a nationwide appeal for Gaza for the thousands of homeless, sick and wounded,in 2009 DEC declined to have nationwide appeal but this time it has,for a state bombed with 2000 killed ,10000 wounded and 500000 displaced by a so called"civilised state". http://bbc.com/news/uk-28683092

Was I defending Israel's actions?

I simply assert that there are other countries who are not affiliated with the ICC, whereas you mention but two.

[Steely Dan]

Hmmm, no Gaza news as lead BBC headline today, instead they lead with ISIS taking over a Christian town and the UN condemning it, incidentally there are more refugees caused by ISIS than there are in Gaza.

But why no Gaza until you go down to minor news items? Perhaps it's due to Hamas refusing to extend the ceasefire unless they get a deep sea port and threatening to cause thousands of deaths with their new generation of rockets, now none of that is news is it, until Israel retaliates that is.

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[sustento]

Hmmm, no Gaza news as lead BBC headline today, instead they lead with ISIS taking over a Christian town and the UN condemning it, incidentally there are more refugees caused by ISIS than there are in Gaza.

But why no Gaza until you go down to minor news items? Perhaps it's due to Hamas refusing to extend the ceasefire unless they get a deep sea port and threatening to cause thousands of deaths with their new generation of rockets, now none of that is news is it, until Israel retaliates that is.

Maybe because BBC News covers world news rather than just the bits you're interested in? If you want full coverage of the Gaza problem I'm sure that DEBKA and Pamela Geller will oblige you

[snottgoblin]

Censorship imposed by vested interests in the U.K regarding news content is why there is no news.

The demand request or whatever by Hamas for a deep water port, is that so threatening to Israel?

The threat I stress the word ''threat'' by Hamas is that so frightening?

''Threat'' an expression of intent to act not an actual action.

Israel has proved time after time their willingness to launch attacks on the Palestinians, no threat there Israeli actions are equatable to war crimes.

For a people of a very mixed racial basis who in truth have no nationality instead it is a claimed religious belief framework ( which that being the a case there would be no real need of a country as religion is all encompassing and has no borders) who claim to have suffered so much indeed the milk of human kindness is sadly missing from the Israeli or Jewish religious psyche

[Jingthing]

...

For a people of a very mixed racial basis who in truth have no nationality instead it is a claimed religious belief framework ( which that being the a case there would be no real need of a country as religion is all encompassing and has no borders) who claim to have suffered so much indeed the milk of human kindness is sadly missing from the Israeli or Jewish religious psyche

Judeophobia rears its ugly head yet again ...

If I said something like black people don't have any human kindness people would correctly call me a RACIST.

But so many people now in the wake of the Gaza conflict think it is OK now to openly express hate speech towards Jews. And they are doing it, all over the world, and here on this forum. People who obviously always felt that way, but now, OPEN SEASON.

You are right Jewish is not a nationality.

The Jewish people in Israel are Israeli nationals.

Jewish people elsewhere are whatever nationality they are.

Jews are not a race, but are an ETHNORELIGIOUS group.

It seems also you don't know a basic fact of Jewish identity. You do not need to be a follower of the Jewish religion to be a Jewish person. All it takes is having a mother who is a Jewish person.

BTW, I take your comment "claim" to have suffered so much as a CODE for holocaust denial. Nice try at subtlety.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[David48]

Call me Egypt ...

Any chance of a ceasefire on this thread ... we need some relief.

Carry the wounded out, replenish supplies and all that

All I read is black and white ... can we not find the middle ground?

.

[mania]

Each to his own opinions, but

Doesn't mean automatic dismissal of opinion, but

Classic

[Ulysses G.]

Each to his own opinions, but when presenting sources of information and quoting opinion it is not always bad practice to point out some consistant and inherent biases associated with the author. Some people definitely get on the wagon whenever there's a bashing of whatever they are against, regardless of the circumstances (meant in general, not as in referring only for this topic). I personally find that having a clue as to author's (or publication's) agenda provides me with better understanding of the position presented.

Doesn't mean automatic dismissal of opinion, but at the same time, not all opinions are to be taken at face value.

Of course. This is not just some generic "rabbi". He is a far left activist who has been demonizing Israel and America for years - not a convincing source to those in the middle or on the right.

[Kalebiran]

Any news organisation that shows the facts on the ground in Gaza,which illustrates Israel's crimes is deemed "biased" by its apologists.Not independent if it isnt run through Tel Aviv for verification? Damned by your own fake denial.

[beechguy]

Any news organisation that shows the facts on the ground in Gaza,which illustrates Israel's crimes is deemed "biased" by its apologists.Not independent if it isnt run through Tel Aviv for verification? Damned by your own fake denial.

And most people that would deem those as crimes, hasn't a clue as to what they are looking at, including the old Korean guy.

[kblaze]

Alright. So how does this make your assertion that I'm "wrong" right?

There is an ongoing struggle between Hamas and other organizations about prestige (as in who's the most hardline and

bad-ass of them all). A lot of the criticism directed at Hamas should be understood in this context. Not so different from

Hamas's own criticism of the Fatah.

When I said "wrong" I was referring to you saying the AQ angle has more to do with domestic politics than Israel.

But you are indeed right, that domestic politics plays a big part in the struggle between the various Jihad factions.

[Choctastic]

Haven't ploughed through all the posts so apologies to the those working so hard for the Israeli Ministry of Truth if this has already been said. The rocket TERROR is being played for all its worth and I have to admit to hiding behind the sofa, so fearful is the threat. Israel must be knee deep in Hamas rockets... 'thousands' I read... nay 'tens of thousands'... with 'the sirens are constant'... and 'thousands of Israelis are going to die'. You get the idea. The Ministry of Truth tends not to tell you just how much ordnance THEY are firing into Gaza or it's nature. They never tell you exactly how many of their people have died.

Let's have a look.

Death from Hamas rockets last year = 0

Deaths from road traffic accidents = 303

In 10 years there have been 22 Israeli deaths attributed to rockets. 2 per year.

The IDF are currently laying waste to auto manufacturers.

[Ulysses G.]

Death from Hamas rockets last year = 0

Thanks to Iron Dome and not from lack of trying. However, there has been plenty of property damage and numerous injuries. It makes life miserable for Israelis who live within range. The booms of rocket fire destroy Israeli homes and forces people to scramble and hide when sirens sound. And let us not forget that there were plenty of deaths from suicide bombers before Israel figured out how to put a stop to that.

[Steely Dan]

Any news organisation that shows the facts on the ground in Gaza,which illustrates Israel's crimes is deemed "biased" by its apologists.Not independent if it isnt run through Tel Aviv for verification? Damned by your own fake denial.

Firstly Hamas threatens any and every reporter inside Gaza with serious consequences if they write anything incriminating against them, though for the most part such threats are unneeded for a lazy and morally compromised press who are only too happy to lap up the lies and stage managed death they provide.

The whole squalid episode is nauseating to behold;- Hamas are the producers of what amounts to snuff movies, much of the MSM are their willing distributors and the Israel haters and useful idiots their clientele. The three groups deserve each other and will no doubt have a jolly old knees up in Europe at some future time. The,prospect of seeing the latter two reaping what they sew is something worth sticking around for.

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[Kalebiran]

Any news organisation that shows the facts on the ground in Gaza,which illustrates Israel's crimes is deemed "biased" by its apologists.Not independent if it isnt run through Tel Aviv for verification? Damned by your own fake denial.

Firstly Hamas threatens any and every reporter inside Gaza with serious consequences if they write anything incriminating against them, though for the most part such threats are unneeded for a lazy and morally compromised press who are only too happy to lap up the lies and stage managed death they provide.

The whole squalid episode is nauseating to behold;- Hamas are the producers of what amounts to snuff movies, much of the MSM are their willing distributors and the Israel haters and useful idiots their clientele. The three groups deserve each other and will no doubt have a jolly old knees up in Europe at some future time. The,prospect of seeing the latter two reaping what they sew is something worth sticking around for.

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total fabrication. I have heard BBC reporters, Lyce Doucet for one, say they go where the events happen, report it as is it, and broadcast what they see , interview who they want . furthermore UN relief workers have done the same . You are so enveloped in your own lies and propaganda a job at the Israel ministry of info is beckoning.All coming from a "liberal hater". I guess Obama isn't supporting Israel enough for you, maybe a few thousand more rockets from Washington shipped with haste to Tel Aviv will soften the feeling. Edited August 8, 2014 by Kalebiran

[ggold]

Any news organisation that shows the facts on the ground in Gaza,which illustrates Israel's crimes is deemed "biased" by its apologists.Not independent if it isnt run through Tel Aviv for verification? Damned by your own fake denial.

Firstly Hamas threatens any and every reporter inside Gaza with serious consequences if they write anything incriminating against them, though for the most part such threats are unneeded for a lazy and morally compromised press who are only too happy to lap up the lies and stage managed death they provide.

The whole squalid episode is nauseating to behold;- Hamas are the producers of what amounts to snuff movies, much of the MSM are their willing distributors and the Israel haters and useful idiots their clientele. The three groups deserve each other and will no doubt have a jolly old knees up in Europe at some future time. The,prospect of seeing the latter two reaping what they sew is something worth sticking around for.

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total fabrication. I have heard BBC reporters, Lyce Doucet for one, say they go where the events happen, report it as is it, and broadcast what they see , interview who they want . furthermore UN relief workers have done the same . You are so enveloped in your own lies and propaganda a job at the Israel ministry of info is beckoning.All coming from a "liberal hater". I guess Obama is supporting Israel enough for you, maybe a few thousand more rockets from Washington shipped with haste to Tel Aviv will soften the feeling.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/01/incredible-videos-reveal-how-journalists-are-being-used-as-human-shields-by-gaza-terror-groups/

New videos appear to show how Hamas and other Gaza terrorist groups are launching rockets next to foreign correspondents’ broadcast positions, thus turning reporters into human shields to deter Israeli military counter-strikes on rocket-launchers.

The videos emerged as several reporters said they had been threatened by Hamas for reporting on its placing its military assets next to sensitive sites like mosques and schools.

http://www.inquisitr.com/1397561/foreign-journalists-confirm-hamas-threatened-them-in-gaza-update/

According to the other reporters, they feared for their lives. “We saw the Hamas men,” a Spanish reporter admitted. “But had we dared point the cameras at them, they would have opened fire at us and killed us.”

Only now that they have left Gaza do the feel safe and free to open up about what Hamas was REALLY doing.

Edited August 8, 2014 by ggold

[Choctastic]

One way to cut through the propaganda..

“They stole my land,
burnt my olive trees,
destroyed my house,
took my water,
bombed my country,
imprisoned my father,
killed my mother,
took my job,
starved us all,
humiliated us all,
But I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.
So they stole more of my land,
burnt my olive trees,
destroyed my house,
took my water,
bombed my country….”

[Ulysses G.]

Any news organisation that shows the facts on the ground in Gaza,which illustrates Israel's crimes is deemed "biased" by its apologists.Not independent if it isnt run through Tel Aviv for verification? Damned by your own fake denial.

Firstly Hamas threatens any and every reporter inside Gaza with serious consequences if they write anything incriminating against them, though for the most part such threats are unneeded for a lazy and morally compromised press who are only too happy to lap up the lies and stage managed death they provide.

The whole squalid episode is nauseating to behold;- Hamas are the producers of what amounts to snuff movies, much of the MSM are their willing distributors and the Israel haters and useful idiots their clientele. The three groups deserve each other and will no doubt have a jolly old knees up in Europe at some future time. The,prospect of seeing the latter two reaping what they sew is something worth sticking around for.

total fabrication.

Nonsense. It has been widely reported.

The reason became apparent this week as several journalists reported being threatened and even expelled from Gaza for highlighting that the terrorist organization used civilian sites to attack Israel.

Reporters from Italy and the US corroborated the IDFs explanation for explosions near the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City and by a playground in the nearby Shati refugee camp on Tuesday that it was the result of misfired rockets by Gazan terrorists.

One altered his report, however and another waited to leave Gaza, because he feared retribution from Hamas.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Journalists-threatened-by-Hamas-for-reporting-use-of-human-shields-369619

How many stories have you seen about humanitarian supplies flowing from Israel to Gaza in the midst of this bloody conflict and the hundreds of Gazans treated in Israeli hospitals?

The explanation: Hamas restricts what journalists in Gaza may film, photograph and even write about. Hamas threatens and intimidates journalists who do not follow what might be called Hamas rules rules designed to shape media coverage and influence perceptions around the world.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/5/may-hamas-rules/#ixzz39mKDG148

Edited August 8, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[kblaze]

Death from Hamas rockets last year = 0

Thanks to Iron Dome and not from lack of trying. However, there has been plenty of property damage and numerous injuries. It makes life miserable for Israelis who live within range. The booms of rocket fire destroy Israeli homes and forces people to scramble and hide when sirens sound. And let us not forget that there were plenty of deaths from suicide bombers before Israel figured out how to put a stop to that.

Oh Really?

2007 - 2807 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2008 - 3716 rocket attacks, 8 killed.

2009 - 858 rocket attacks, 0 killed.

2010 - 365 rocket attacks, 1 killed.

Iron Dome is installed

2011 - 680 rocket attacks, 2 killed.

2012 - 2273 rocket attacks, 6 killed.

2013 - 44 rocket attacks, 0 killed

2014 - 3700+ rocket attacks, 6 killed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Edited August 8, 2014 by kblaze