Thai police find 9 babies in a condo - Fear of surrogacy being misused for stem cells

[Thai at Heart]

"Former minister Paveen Hongsakul, who initiated the raid on Tuesday on Soi Lat Phrao 130, feared that in the worst-case scenario this "surrogacy-for-hire" scam may be related to the potentially fatal extraction of foetal fluid to provide stem cells."

Why?

How is it however, that these raids occur so quickly after a scandal in Thailand. Obviously someone knows and they finds their moral compass and splurges the truth.

Babies being farmed for stem cells? What next? I can't imagine.

[craigt3365]

A post violating forum rules has been removed from view.  This is serious, please don't violate this rule again:

 

6) You will not post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel.

Defamation is the issuance of a statement about another person or business which causes that person to suffer harm. It does not have to be false to be defamatory. Libel is when the defamatory statement is published either in a drawing, painting, cinematography, film, picture or letters made visible by any means, or any other recording instruments, recording picture or letters, or by broadcasting or spreading picture, or by propagation by any other means. Defamation is both a civil and criminal charge in Thailand.

[waxon]

All very sad, in Thailand life is cheap in every respect, god knows what these poor babies were for, I dread to think...

 
"In Thailand life is cheap..."
 
Do you often over generalize?

I agree. Unfortunately, too many people over generalise, respond in a knee jerk manner and fail to see the full picture before condemning an issue. I call it the vigilante in us all.

Some people rush to the conclusion that therefore ALL surrogacy should be banned.
This fails to to acknowledge that their are thousands of childless couples want and are entitled to experience the joy of having their own children through a properly managed surrogacy program.

The issue above if substantiated after proper investigation is a good example of the dark side of surrogacy. But the flaw is not in surrogacy per se but in a legal system that fails to properly manage an ethical system of surrogacy.

I totally agree. Calling surrogacy a "scam" and outlawing except for relatives is a knee-jerk reaction by naive politicians. A good way to get their name in the national news and make it seem like they are really accomplishing something though...

[Thai at Heart]

All very sad, in Thailand life is cheap in every respect, god knows what these poor babies were for, I dread to think...

 
"In Thailand life is cheap..."
 
Do you often over generalize?

I agree. Unfortunately, too many people over generalise, respond in a knee jerk manner and fail to see the full picture before condemning an issue. I call it the vigilante in us all.

Some people rush to the conclusion that therefore ALL surrogacy should be banned.
This fails to to acknowledge that their are thousands of childless couples want and are entitled to experience the joy of having their own children through a properly managed surrogacy program.

The issue above if substantiated after proper investigation is a good example of the dark side of surrogacy. But the flaw is not in surrogacy per se but in a legal system that fails to properly manage an ethical system of surrogacy.

I totally agree. Calling surrogacy a "scam" and outlawing except for relatives is a knee-jerk reaction by naive politicians. A good way to get their name in the national news and make it seem like they are really accomplishing something though...

When authorities in supposed positions of moral power like doctors and hospital administrators show zero ability to enforce a law, sometimes a stringent refusal to allow certain practices is the only policy.

The law is the law. Commercial surrogacy is already illegal in Thailand. Change the law or comply but don't subvert it for cash.

[geodesic]

 

 

 

 

"In Thailand life is cheap..."
 
Do you often over generalize?

I agree. Unfortunately, too many people over generalise, respond in a knee jerk manner and fail to see the full picture before condemning an issue. I call it the vigilante in us all.

Some people rush to the conclusion that therefore ALL surrogacy should be banned.
This fails to to acknowledge that their are thousands of childless couples want and are entitled to experience the joy of having their own children through a properly managed surrogacy program.

The issue above if substantiated after proper investigation is a good example of the dark side of surrogacy. But the flaw is not in surrogacy per se but in a legal system that fails to properly manage an ethical system of surrogacy.

I totally agree. Calling surrogacy a "scam" and outlawing except for relatives is a knee-jerk reaction by naive politicians. A good way to get their name in the national news and make it seem like they are really accomplishing something though...

When authorities in supposed positions of moral power like doctors and hospital administrators show zero ability to enforce a law, sometimes a stringent refusal to allow certain practices is the only policy.

The law is the law. Commercial surrogacy is already illegal in Thailand. Change the law or comply but don't subvert it for cash.

 

 

The desire to procreate and propagate your DNA is one of the strongest drives present in humans. It is a biological imperative. The fact that you may not need a surrogate and/or don't like children does not make that desire any less strong in those who do need to use the service.

 

Trying to outlaw surrogacy is going to have the same results as trying to outlaw sex. It won't happen. Does a law against stealing prevent theft when someone is starving?

 

Surrogacy needs to be regulated, but it can not be prevented. An knee jerk law that doesn't recognize the needs of the people who use a surrogate to have a family is doomed to failure. It is not a personal choice, and those who would operate to find a way around it are going to do it independent of any law, and they will feel morally justified in doing so. You are trying to override thousands of years of evolution that tell people that child is more important than their own lives.

 

You are foolish if you ignore this.

 

Regulate surrogacy in such a way that people who need it for its intended purpose have access to it. Banning it altogether or making the restrictions so severe that it can't be used by the general population is going to be a lesson in futility.

 

 

 

[ParadiseLost]

"Amazing Thailand".

 

Hub of immorality.

Edited August 7, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[belg]

my wife told me a strange story once, of a very very famous thai person that used thousands of foetus (remains kept in wat's, to keep the secret) for exactly that purpose, to look younger and for health ...

[Thai at Heart]

 

When authorities in supposed positions of moral power like doctors and hospital administrators show zero ability to enforce a law, sometimes a stringent refusal to allow certain practices is the only policy.

The law is the law. Commercial surrogacy is already illegal in Thailand. Change the law or comply but don't subvert it for cash.

 

The desire to procreate and propagate your DNA is one of the strongest drives present in humans. It is a biological imperative. The fact that you may not need a surrogate and/or don't like children does not make that desire any less strong in those who do need to use the service.

 

Trying to outlaw surrogacy is going to have the same results as trying to outlaw sex. It won't happen. Does a law against stealing prevent theft when someone is starving?

 

Surrogacy needs to be regulated, but it can not be prevented. An knee jerk law that doesn't recognize the needs of the people who use a surrogate to have a family is doomed to failure. It is not a personal choice, and those who would operate to find a way around it are going to do it independent of any law, and they will feel morally justified in doing so. You are trying to override thousands of years of evolution that tell people that child is more important than their own lives.

 

You are foolish if you ignore this.

 

Regulate surrogacy in such a way that people who need it for its intended purpose have access to it. Banning it altogether or making the restrictions so severe that it can't be used by the general population is going to be a lesson in futility.

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm.  Comparing surrogacy to the desire to procreate is a bit tenuous. 

 

None of this would ever have happened, if Thailand had medical practitioners who followed the law.  Then everyone could debate the law and come up with a practical solution.  The Thai side isn't enabling this for some desire to help people have babies.  They are doing this because it makes money.  The law is there for a reason, and subverting it because you believe people have some animal desire for babies doesn't help one bit, and this is the result.  

 

I never said it should be banned, I said that subverting it for cash ends up with this sort of frankenstein behaviour of harvesting babies for stem cells on the black market.

[Captor]

Scary prison sentences! That's the way to deter crime. In Thailand you can murder and dismember someone and be down at the beach partying in a few short years.

 

Not only in Thailand, in Sweden too! And they get salary in jail as well! And the have TV and everything. They can even study!! All paid with taxes from swedish citizens who are screwed in both ends!

[Jim walker]

Welcome to Thailand where money is the number one nothing else counts babies children they are all a commodity bought and sold for some wonderful money we want more money money

[orosee]

 

Scary prison sentences! That's the way to deter crime. In Thailand you can murder and dismember someone and be down at the beach partying in a few short years.

 

Not only in Thailand, in Sweden too! And they get salary in jail as well! And the have TV and everything. They can even study!! All paid with taxes from swedish citizens who are screwed in both ends!

 

If Swedish jails are so nice, why aren't you in one? 

 

Occupational therapy (labour) is fine and should be paid (modestly) to avoid appearances of forced labour. TV is okay since you don't want long term inmates to be bored ("idle hands..."). Studying is a fine idea that will help with the correctional process and possibly produce individuals who can continue in freedom with a proper job.

 

People actually thought about this before implementing it. Not everyone in jail is a pedophile serial killer.

[Bluespunk]

Disgusting, paedophiles cultivating their victims and other innocent babies being cultivated for medical experiments.  Surrogacy needs to be stamped out for good.  If you want a child try adopting.

 
stem cells for cosmetic is really bad.....if it would be for medicine we could discuss all day long. But just for some old women to look a bit younger....

.

Is there actually any evidence that stem cells were being harvested. I know it creates a nice attention grabbing headline for the person quoted as saying stem cells were being collected, but is it true? Edited August 7, 2014 by Bluespunk

[3NUMBAS]

appalled---- its the hub of baby making now ,what next

 

swedish jails are a doddle ,theyre luxury and cosy .

i know an ex jail bird and he loved his time in swedish jail ,learned to play the harmonica as good as larry addler by the time he came out with a nice wedge too

Edited August 7, 2014 by 3NUMBAS

[Bluespunk]

appalled---- its the hub of baby making now ,what next
 
swedish jails are a doddle ,theyre luxury and cosy .
i know an ex jail bird and he loved his time in swedish jail ,learned to play the harmonica as good as larry addler by the time he came out with a nice wedge too

Did he ever reoffend?
I only ask because if not, well maybe the Swedes know what they're doing. Edited August 7, 2014 by Bluespunk

[khunken]

 

 

Disgusting, paedophiles cultivating their victims and other innocent babies being cultivated for medical experiments.  Surrogacy needs to be stamped out for good.  If you want a child try adopting.

 
stem cells for cosmetic is really bad.....if it would be for medicine we could discuss all day long. But just for some old women to look a bit younger....

.

Is there actually any evidence that stem cells were being harvested. I know it creates a nice attention grabbing headline for the person quoted as saying stem cells were being collected, but is it true?

 

 

A very good question that is certainly not answered in the Op. As already mentioned The Japanese man is 'thought' to have fathered the babies and then later says the babies look Caucasian.

 

It's not even clear that this is a surrogacy case. Will the Nation follow up and provide more clarity?

 

[Captor]

 

 

Scary prison sentences! That's the way to deter crime. In Thailand you can murder and dismember someone and be down at the beach partying in a few short years.

 

Not only in Thailand, in Sweden too! And they get salary in jail as well! And the have TV and everything. They can even study!! All paid with taxes from swedish citizens who are screwed in both ends!

 

If Swedish jails are so nice, why aren't you in one? 

 

Occupational therapy (labour) is fine and should be paid (modestly) to avoid appearances of forced labour. TV is okay since you don't want long term inmates to be bored ("idle hands..."). Studying is a fine idea that will help with the correctional process and possibly produce individuals who can continue in freedom with a proper job.

 

People actually thought about this before implementing it. Not everyone in jail is a pedophile serial killer.

 

How do you know I am not already?

It has gone too far when people from other surrounding countries comes here by ferry or else, shot someone or stab someone (no matter who) and wait for the police to come and get them.

OK, that says a lot of the situation in the countries they come from (Estonia, Lihuania etc.) but it has gone to far in Sweden. And all this therapy mostly don´t help anyway. After 1 year they are back in jail again. 9 of 10.

[Bluespunk]

 

 

Scary prison sentences! That's the way to deter crime. In Thailand you can murder and dismember someone and be down at the beach partying in a few short years.

 
Not only in Thailand, in Sweden too! And they get salary in jail as well! And the have TV and everything. They can even study!! All paid with taxes from swedish citizens who are screwed in both ends!
 

If Swedish jails are so nice, why aren't you in one? 
 
Occupational therapy (labour) is fine and should be paid (modestly) to avoid appearances of forced labour. TV is okay since you don't want long term inmates to be bored ("idle hands..."). Studying is a fine idea that will help with the correctional process and possibly produce individuals who can continue in freedom with a proper job.
 
People actually thought about this before implementing it. Not everyone in jail is a pedophile serial killer.
 

How do you know I am not already?
It has gone too far when people from other surrounding countries comes here by ferry or else, shot someone or stab someone (no matter who) and wait for the police to come and get them.
OK, that says a lot of the situation in the countries they come from (Estonia, Lihuania etc.) but it has gone to far in Sweden. And all this therapy mostly don´t help anyway. After 1 year they are back in jail again. 9 of 10.

Not true. Sweden is planning to close a number of prisons due to a falling gaol population. Recidivism stands at about 30-40%. Not sure if can post links to the Guardian but there is a very good article on this from 2013.

[Mmorris]

Japanese millionaire fathers nine babies

Nine babies aged from one month to six months have been found in a Bangkok condominium, fueling further concern about Thailand's booming surrogacy industry. A Thai lawyer has claimed a Japanese millionaire is the father of the babies, who were born to Thai surrogate mothers.

Military Police and welfare workers who raided the condominium also found nine Thai and Japanese child-minders and a woman who was about four months pregnant, Thai media reported.

Thai lawyer Ratprathan Tulathorn told authorities he was acting for the Japanese man, who wanted the babies to take back to Japan to run his business when they grow up.
 

For Fair Use.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/japanese-millionaire-fathers-nine-babies-20140806-3d8wp.html#ixzz39hLwi0Mc

[Captor]

Not true again. They are closing the prisons because they are concidering inhuman! New prisons will be built... They are closing the so called high risk prisons. Prisons with departments for the most dangerous criminals. That process is already started.

[Bluespunk]

Not true again. They are closing the prisons because they are concidering inhuman! New prisons will be built... They are closing the so called high risk prisons. Prisons with departments for the most dangerous criminals. That process is already started.

Not what I'm reading, at least regarding reasons for closing four prisons. Also recidivism rates are relatively low. Nowhere can I find a 90% rate.

From the Guardian story
"Prison numbers in Sweden, which have been falling by around 1% a year since 2004, dropped by 6% between 2011 and 2012 and are expected to do the same again both this year and next year. " Edited August 7, 2014 by Bluespunk

[Captor]

OK, I don´t know about the Guardian. I just quote what we hear and see in the news on TV and so on. Maybe we are misslead but I don´t think so.

Actually it is increasing as I hear from my 4 friends in the Police force. And most of it is because of the immigration. Sweden have open arms for all countries in war or civilwar. And the result of that is that a lot of criminals comes here. People who continuing with the same bussiness they did before in the homecountry. It sound discriminating but it is a fact. About 85% of the inmates in the prisons are immigrants. But of course those words will you never hear from any politian here... Luckily they are mostly fighting agains eachother in order to get more market share of the drugmarket for example. But many of this crimimals don´t have the same values as we have. They are coming from warzones and brings the skills they have learned at home here to Sweden. The Police have no chance to fight against it.

[webfact]

Discovery of nine babies prompts Thai surrogacy probe

BANGKOK, August 7, 2014 (AFP) - Thai police said Thursday they will carry out DNA tests on nine babies found in mysterious circumstances in a Bangkok apartment -- each with a supposed nanny -- to determine the identity of their parents.

 

The discovery follows a scandal that erupted after an Australian couple were accused of abandoning a baby boy with Down syndrome born to a Thai surrogate, while taking home his twin sister.

 

There were no documents found with the nine babies, leading authorities at the emergency accommodation where they are being cared for to guess they are aged between two weeks and two years old.

 

A Thai lawyer who was at the apartment at the time of Wednesday's raid deepened the mystery by telling police that all nine babies were the children of an unnamed wealthy Japanese man.

 

Also present at the plush condominium in a city suburb were nine nannies and a pregnant woman, who later said she was acting as a surrogate mother. The nannies told authorities they were paid $310 a month to look after the children.

 

It was not immediately clear if the babies were also born to surrogate mothers.

 

"We're investigating how these nine babies came to be in that room," deputy national police chief Aek Angsananont told AFP.

 

"We have to prove who their parents are with DNA tests, and determine if they were born naturally or by surrogacy," he said, adding the probe would look at the legality of the surrogacies if any have taken place.

 

Police said it could take weeks to prove who their biological fathers and mothers are.

 

Thai authorities have stepped up their scrutiny of surrogacy in the kingdom, following the controversy involving the Australian couple who have denied they rejected the Down's baby -- a seven-month-old named Gammy.

 

The Thai surrogate mother said she agreed to carry another Thai donor's egg fertilised by the Australian man in exchange for around $14,900.

 

The man, 56, has been exposed as a convicted paedophile in Australia.

 

Thai medical officials say surrogacy is illegal -- unless it is with a relative -- in the kingdom and offering money to carry a baby is outright prohibited.

 

"Surrogacy outside bloodline is illegal," Boonruang Triruangworawat, of the Public Health Ministry, told reporters Thursday.

 

There are 45 public and private surrogacy clinics in the kingdom and 240 doctors certified to carry out procedures.

 

"Currently clinic owners who allow (uncertified) doctors to perform surrogacy will be punished with one year in jail and a fine of $600."

 

But in the wake of the baby Gammy scandal, Thailand's new junta rulers have vowed to beef up punishments and close current loopholes which they say are being exploited by foreigners seeking Thai surrogates.

 

A draft bill proposes a tighter ban on commercial surrogacy carrying up to 10 years in jail for anyone -- doctors, egg donors, prospective parents or surrogates -- found in breach, according to a junta spokesman.

[afp]2014-08-07[/afp]

[Bluespunk]

OK, I don´t know about the Guardian. I just quote what we hear and see in the news on TV and so on. Maybe we are misslead but I don´t think so.
Actually it is increasing as I hear from my 4 friends in the Police force. And most of it is because of the immigration. Sweden have open arms for all countries in war or civilwar. And the result of that is that a lot of criminals comes here. People who continuing with the same bussiness they did before in the homecountry. It sound discriminating but it is a fact. About 85% of the inmates in the prisons are immigrants. But of course those words will you never hear from any politian here... Luckily they are mostly fighting agains eachother in order to get more market share of the drugmarket for example. But many of this crimimals don´t have the same values as we have. They are coming from warzones and brings the skills they have learned at home here to Sweden. The Police have no chance to fight against it.

I'm not sure about everything you say but yes there are a lot of issues around immigration and second generation citizens.

However your wild percentages undermine your arguments. 26% of prisoners in Sweden are immigrants (50% of those serving five years or more) not 85% as you assert.

I'll look into some of your other claims but I do know that immigrant family incomes are over 35% less that native Swedes on average. While not a valid reason to turn to crime it might explain the relatively higher crime figures.

I stress, that for me, this not a good reason to turn to crime and is not an excuse I would accept for criminal actions. All crime is wrong no matter the reason behind it.

[kotsak]

In another news, the Japanese man has left the country..

 

[ParadiseLost]

 

 

Scary prison sentences! That's the way to deter crime. In Thailand you can murder and dismember someone and be down at the beach partying in a few short years.

 

Not only in Thailand, in Sweden too! And they get salary in jail as well! And the have TV and everything. They can even study!! All paid with taxes from swedish citizens who are screwed in both ends!

 

If Swedish jails are so nice, why aren't you in one? 

 

Occupational therapy (labour) is fine and should be paid (modestly) to avoid appearances of forced labour. TV is okay since you don't want long term inmates to be bored ("idle hands..."). Studying is a fine idea that will help with the correctional process and possibly produce individuals who can continue in freedom with a proper job.

 

People actually thought about this before implementing it. Not everyone in jail is a pedophile serial killer.

 

+1

 

For some it can even be their first chance at getting a decent life.

 

At least those who can have the chance, not like in the biggest incarcerater in the world; once 'inside' you never lose the stain and are excluded from society for life. No point spending money on what are likely to be repeat customers...
 

Edited August 7, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[Captor]

 

OK, I don´t know about the Guardian. I just quote what we hear and see in the news on TV and so on. Maybe we are misslead but I don´t think so.
Actually it is increasing as I hear from my 4 friends in the Police force. And most of it is because of the immigration. Sweden have open arms for all countries in war or civilwar. And the result of that is that a lot of criminals comes here. People who continuing with the same bussiness they did before in the homecountry. It sound discriminating but it is a fact. About 85% of the inmates in the prisons are immigrants. But of course those words will you never hear from any politian here... Luckily they are mostly fighting agains eachother in order to get more market share of the drugmarket for example. But many of this crimimals don´t have the same values as we have. They are coming from warzones and brings the skills they have learned at home here to Sweden. The Police have no chance to fight against it.

I'm not sure about everything you say but yes there are a lot of issues around immigration and second generation citizens.

However your wild percentages undermine your arguments. 26% of prisoners in Sweden are immigrants (50% of those serving five years or more) not 85% as you assert.

I'll look into some of your other claims but I do know that immigrant family incomes are over 35% less that native Swedes on average. While not a valid reason to turn to crime it might explain the relatively higher crime figures.

I stress, that for me, this not a good reason to turn to crime and is not an excuse I would accept for criminal actions. All crime is wrong no matter the reason behind it.

 

 

This 35% less family income you are mention is not a normal work income but allowance which comes from taxpayers. The immigrants that want to work will get the same salary as Swedish natives.

The others who not want to work will get allowance from the state and can use the sparetime (from not working) to deal with criminal actions.

The number 25% you are mention is totally wrong. It is really 85%. Except my police friends I also have a friend who workt at the prison here in Malmo. He said 85%. I believe more in him and my policefriends than in the politicians here. They do not have the guts to tell the truth. 25% may be the officila version. But unfortunately it is totally wrong. Please do not believe in everything you read in the newspaper. Specially not the swedish ones. OK, now I have to continue my work here so that I can earn money and pay my taxes. So that others don´t need to.
 

[Local Drunk]

Look no further for the benefactors of such a scheme than those delighting themselves in a bit of shark fin soup. 

[metisdead]

Posts with unsubstantiated claims of paedophilia in this case have been removed.  This is about fears of surrogacy being misused for stem cells. 

[Bluespunk]

 

OK, I don´t know about the Guardian. I just quote what we hear and see in the news on TV and so on. Maybe we are misslead but I don´t think so.
Actually it is increasing as I hear from my 4 friends in the Police force. And most of it is because of the immigration. Sweden have open arms for all countries in war or civilwar. And the result of that is that a lot of criminals comes here. People who continuing with the same bussiness they did before in the homecountry. It sound discriminating but it is a fact. About 85% of the inmates in the prisons are immigrants. But of course those words will you never hear from any politian here... Luckily they are mostly fighting agains eachother in order to get more market share of the drugmarket for example. But many of this crimimals don´t have the same values as we have. They are coming from warzones and brings the skills they have learned at home here to Sweden. The Police have no chance to fight against it.

I'm not sure about everything you say but yes there are a lot of issues around immigration and second generation citizens.

However your wild percentages undermine your arguments. 26% of prisoners in Sweden are immigrants (50% of those serving five years or more) not 85% as you assert.

I'll look into some of your other claims but I do know that immigrant family incomes are over 35% less that native Swedes on average. While not a valid reason to turn to crime it might explain the relatively higher crime figures.

I stress, that for me, this not a good reason to turn to crime and is not an excuse I would accept for criminal actions. All crime is wrong no matter the reason behind it.
 

 
This 35% less family income you are mention is not a normal work income but allowance which comes from taxpayers. The immigrants that want to work will get the same salary as Swedish natives.
The others who not want to work will get allowance from the state and can use the sparetime (from not working) to deal with criminal actions.
The number 25% you are mention is totally wrong. It is really 85%. Except my police friends I also have a friend who workt at the prison here in Malmo. He said 85%. I believe more in him and my policefriends than in the politicians here. They do not have the guts to tell the truth. 25% may be the officila version. But unfortunately it is totally wrong. Please do not believe in everything you read in the newspaper. Specially not the swedish ones. OK, now I have to continue my work here so that I can earn money and pay my taxes. So that others don´t need to.
 

The figures I quote are based on facts and the truth. Where you get yours from is beyond me, but they are wrong.

[Johpa]

Unlikely that this has anything to do with embryonic stem cells.  There is little need these days to use embryonic stem cells and Japan hosts leading research in creating induced pluripotent stem cells.  Today one is more likely to use pluripotent stem cells that can be harvested from blood marrow or other parts of the body.