Ukraine crisis: Putin orders retaliatory sanctions

[lovetotravel]

Understand this fairly well. As much as any layman. But the big deal is Russia wants to supply LNG to China. China wants it done in Yuan. Russia in their own currency. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

But yes, the status of the US based "petro dollar" does look to be in potential trouble.

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

[lovetotravel]

Gotta love this. As I've said before, if the oligarchs get too upset with Putin, he'll be in trouble:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/opinion/roger-cohen-london-and-newyork-suck-in-money-and-injustices.html

Having made it big in autocratic countries with parlous legal systems (if that), a cowed press and rampant corruption — say, Russia and China — oligarchs and crony capitalists wake up one day and find that, gosh, they like nothing as much as democratic systems under the rule of law held accountable by an independent press. Having trashed the West, they trust the West with their money.

This then is the way the world works: Autocratic hypercapitalism without Western checks and balances produces new elites whose dream is an American or British lifestyle and education for their children, and whose other goal, knowing how their own capricious systems really function, is to buy into the rule of law by acquiring real estate, driving up prices in prime markets to the point where the middle classes of those countries, with incomes often stagnant or falling, are pushed aside.

This process is mirrored at the national level, where the bargain is that American debt is bought by Asian governments, notably the Chinese, and Asians make money through access to credit-fueled American markets and consumers. Asians lend America money to police the world: Their new wealth depends on American-underwritten stability. They know it. Surface conflict often masks inextricable connectedness.

[Harsh Jones]

Gotta love this. As I've said before, if the oligarchs get too upset with Putin, he'll be in trouble:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/opinion/roger-cohen-london-and-newyork-suck-in-money-and-injustices.html

Having made it big in autocratic countries with parlous legal systems (if that), a cowed press and rampant corruption — say, Russia and China — oligarchs and crony capitalists wake up one day and find that, gosh, they like nothing as much as democratic systems under the rule of law held accountable by an independent press. Having trashed the West, they trust the West with their money.

This then is the way the world works: Autocratic hypercapitalism without Western checks and balances produces new elites whose dream is an American or British lifestyle and education for their children, and whose other goal, knowing how their own capricious systems really function, is to buy into the rule of law by acquiring real estate, driving up prices in prime markets to the point where the middle classes of those countries, with incomes often stagnant or falling, are pushed aside.

This process is mirrored at the national level, where the bargain is that American debt is bought by Asian governments, notably the Chinese, and Asians make money through access to credit-fueled American markets and consumers. Asians lend America money to police the world: Their new wealth depends on American-underwritten stability. They know it. Surface conflict often masks inextricable connectedness.

I am not sure what the point this opinion piece is trying to get across ? I had a good lol about the "without western checks and balances".

After the US defaulted on its gold obligations in 1971, they wrote up a deal with OPEC that all oil transactions must be settled in U.S. dollars (Petrodollar) Before this, it was the gold standard under Bretton Woods 1 that was the spur and brake of capital flows around the world. But under the petrodollar , there is no spur and brake. Because oil is transacted in dollars, any country that is producing anything, has US dollars piling up at their central bank. The dollars have to be spent in the US so these central banks lend it back in the form of debt or buy real estate or listed stocks. (in the US) Hence why prices of assets in the US mean almost nothing anymore. There is no spur or brake in capital flows. There is just one big spur into the US. And people think there is something magical about the US or that it is some economic powerhouse when its anything but. Economic powerhouses do not have 50 billion per month trade deficits.

This is not the Chinese or Russian "oligarchs" doing. This is all the US and its long in the tooth petrodollar policy.

[lovetotravel]

I think you missed the point of that article. Why don't these rich oligarchs just stay in their own country and spend their own currency? The answers are obvious.

[Pakboong]

Understand this fairly well. As much as any layman. But the big deal is Russia wants to supply LNG to China. China wants it done in Yuan. Russia in their own currency. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

But yes, the status of the US based "petro dollar" does look to be in potential trouble.

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

[lovetotravel]

Understand this fairly well. As much as any layman. But the big deal is Russia wants to supply LNG to China. China wants it done in Yuan. Russia in their own currency. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

But yes, the status of the US based "petro dollar" does look to be in potential trouble.

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

I think they are predicting China to over take the US in about 14 years. But time will tell. I remember the prediction of Japan becoming the world's largest economy back in the 70s or so. That obviously never happened.

[Harsh Jones]

I think you missed the point of that article. Why don't these rich oligarchs just stay in their own country and spend their own currency? The answers are obvious.

Umm .. Because they have dollars to spend ? Last time I checked , you couldn't spend Dollars in Russia or China. I think you have entirely missed everything that has been said about the petrodollar.

[Harsh Jones]

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

I think they are predicting China to over take the US in about 14 years. But time will tell. I remember the prediction of Japan becoming the world's largest economy back in the 70s or so. That obviously never happened.

Japans real output has been bigger then the US. So has China. The US hasn't run a trade surplus since the Ford administration. What does the US export ? China or Japan produces something and sells it to the US. Since the US has nothing to export back, the Chinese just lend the dollars back to the US. Then the US wastes these dollars on military and home renovations and call it GDP.

[lovetotravel]

I think you missed the point of that article. Why don't these rich oligarchs just stay in their own country and spend their own currency? The answers are obvious.

Umm .. Because they have dollars to spend ? Last time I checked , you couldn't spend Dollars in Russia or China. I think you have entirely missed everything that has been said about the petrodollar.

When I do a search on "petrodollar" 95% of what comes up is articles from radical media sites. You are way too focused on everything negative to the US. Very strange.

[Harsh Jones]

I think you missed the point of that article. Why don't these rich oligarchs just stay in their own country and spend their own currency? The answers are obvious.

Umm .. Because they have dollars to spend ? Last time I checked , you couldn't spend Dollars in Russia or China. I think you have entirely missed everything that has been said about the petrodollar.

When I do a search on "petrodollar" 95% of what comes up is articles from radical media sites. You are way too focused on everything negative to the US. Very strange.

The petrodollar is the system man. Get with it. It is the crux of the power struggle between the US and Russia. Why should I be happy to be a citizen of a lapdog state that subsidizes the US through the petrodollar ?

BTW Petrodollar on Google produces the following results in order:

Wikipedia

Sun News

Forbes

[lovetotravel]

That Forbes article is just a reprint from another source, which is promoting their own investments related to energy.

[Publicus]

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

The petrodollar is going to be around for a long time to come, as is the USD$ as the global currency of both international trade and as a forex reserve. The reasons are there for anyone to see, plainly and unmistakably, both pro-actively and by default. China presents the default position due to the following reality and consequent developments.

The CCP-PRC has a political economy and a financial system that is radically different from any in the West, and even in East Asia, and has produced a proliferation of bubbles throughout its developing regions. The bursting of the CCP's bubbles has begun in the most obvious place, the property and housing market. The bursting of the many CCP bubbles will occur differently than in the West, the 2008 U.S. subprime property market in particular.

The fact remains however that no bubble anywhere ever ends well. The several major and serious CCP bubbles will burst, as is occurring now in the property and housing market. The property bubble currently bursting is setting off the expected and predicted cascade of the CCP's bubbles bursting.

Further, the Boyz in Beijing are doing exactly the wrong thing, I.e., they are printing RMB as if it were monopoly game money, which it is, and at four times the rate the Fed has created dollars.

China’s property bubble has burst: Economists

BEIJING — China’s property bubble has burst and growth in Asia’s largest economy could slow sharply to less than 6 per cent this year unless the government steps in with fresh stimulus measures, economists at Nomura securities brokerage warned yesterday.

“It is no longer a question of ‘if’, but rather ‘how severe’ the property market correction will be. We are convinced that the property sector has passed a turning point,” the economists said in their research report.

If Beijing eases monetary policy, steps up fiscal stimulus and loosens property sector measures, growth could touch 7.4 per cent. However, this would worsen the current housing oversupply and delay the downturn by a year. This would result in a one-in-three chance of a hard landing by the end of next year, which Nomura defines as growth below 5 per cent for four straight quarters.

http://www.todayonline.com/business/chinas-property-bubble-has-burst-economists?singlepage=true

China’s Housing Market Is Titanic Heading For Iceberg

Chinese real estate tycoon Pan Shiyi said that China’s real estate is like the Titanic about to hit the iceberg. Experts pointed out that house prices might go into a tailspin without government rescue due to tight credit and buyer hesitation.

After the hit, the risk is not only in the real estate industry; but more in the financial industry.

Beijing Maitian Real Estate Broker Zhang Ze said, “Money is tight in the bank and hard to be loaned out because many enterprises are short of cash. Some enterprise bosses sold their own houses at low prices to raise cash. Banks don’t have liquidity.”

http://www.ntd.tv/en/programs/news-politics/china-forbidden-news/20140528/150173-chinas-housing-market-may-collapse-without-bailout.html

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China

There is a dispute between those who see Chinese economic policy as merely being “fine-tuned” and those who see ctive stimulus. The debate is misguided: the level of stimulus may be relevant to the current state of the economy, but it will not affect where the economy is headed.

Regardless of whether it is scattered or intense, monetary stimulus no longer works for the Chinese economy and cannot boost growth.

For every month that passes without powerful action to reform, China eases further into the middle income trap, where once fast-rising economies slowly drift towards stagnation. This gradual failure, not the extent of stimulus, is what matters.

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China | South China Morning Post

Go ahead and hitch your star to the CCP-PRC to find out what it's like to ride a shooting star. The Chinese don't know or understand modern economics and neither does Putin. A hundred years ago both China and Russia were in chaos and travelling rapidly off on warped paths, while the USA was making itself stronger and ever more sustainable. The trends have manifested in what exists today, a tsarist style democracy in Moscow, a variation of the artificial and failed USSR in Beijing, and the USA continuing to remake itself.

In short it's chaos vs stability. The choice is between erratic and authoritarian leaders in Moscow and Beijing vs steady and predictable hands in North America and Europe. Classic Western Liberalism has a habit of consistently prevailing..

Edited August 18, 2014 by Publicus

[lovetotravel]

Come on Publicus! There you go popping the bubble of all these anti-American posters! You are too logical and not emotional enough.

[Asiantravel]

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

The petrodollar is going to be around for a long time to come, as is the USD$ as the global currency of both international trade and as a forex reserve. The reasons are there for anyone to see, plainly and unmistakably, both pro-actively and by default. China presents the default position due to the following reality and consequent developments.

The CCP-PRC has a political economy and a financial system that is radically different from any in the West, and even in East Asia, and has produced a proliferation of bubbles throughout its developing regions. The bursting of the CCP's bubbles has begun in the most obvious place, the property and housing market. The bursting of the many CCP bubbles will occur differently than in the West, the 2008 U.S. subprime property market in particular.

The fact remains however that no bubble anywhere ever ends well. The several major and serious CCP bubbles will burst, as is occurring now in the property and housing market. The property bubble currently bursting is setting off the expected and predicted cascade of the CCP's bubbles bursting.

Further, the Boyz in Beijing are doing exactly the wrong thing, I.e., they are printing RMB as if it were monopoly game money, which it is, and at four times the rate the Fed has created dollars.

China’s property bubble has burst: Economists

BEIJING — China’s property bubble has burst and growth in Asia’s largest economy could slow sharply to less than 6 per cent this year unless the government steps in with fresh stimulus measures, economists at Nomura securities brokerage warned yesterday.

“It is no longer a question of ‘if’, but rather ‘how severe’ the property market correction will be. We are convinced that the property sector has passed a turning point,” the economists said in their research report.

If Beijing eases monetary policy, steps up fiscal stimulus and loosens property sector measures, growth could touch 7.4 per cent. However, this would worsen the current housing oversupply and delay the downturn by a year. This would result in a one-in-three chance of a hard landing by the end of next year, which Nomura defines as growth below 5 per cent for four straight quarters.

http://www.todayonline.com/business/chinas-property-bubble-has-burst-economists?singlepage=true

China’s Housing Market Is Titanic Heading For Iceberg

Chinese real estate tycoon Pan Shiyi said that China’s real estate is like the Titanic about to hit the iceberg. Experts pointed out that house prices might go into a tailspin without government rescue due to tight credit and buyer hesitation.

After the hit, the risk is not only in the real estate industry; but more in the financial industry.

Beijing Maitian Real Estate Broker Zhang Ze said, “Money is tight in the bank and hard to be loaned out because many enterprises are short of cash. Some enterprise bosses sold their own houses at low prices to raise cash. Banks don’t have liquidity.”

http://www.ntd.tv/en/programs/news-politics/china-forbidden-news/20140528/150173-chinas-housing-market-may-collapse-without-bailout.html

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China

There is a dispute between those who see Chinese economic policy as merely being “fine-tuned” and those who see ctive stimulus. The debate is misguided: the level of stimulus may be relevant to the current state of the economy, but it will not affect where the economy is headed.

Regardless of whether it is scattered or intense, monetary stimulus no longer works for the Chinese economy and cannot boost growth.

For every month that passes without powerful action to reform, China eases further into the middle income trap, where once fast-rising economies slowly drift towards stagnation. This gradual failure, not the extent of stimulus, is what matters.

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China | South China Morning Post

Go ahead and hitch your star to the CCP-PRC to find out what it's like to ride a shooting star. The Chinese don't know or understand modern economics and neither does Putin. A hundred years ago both China and Russia were in chaos and travelling rapidly off on warped paths, while the USA was making itself stronger and ever more sustainable. The trends have manifested in what exists today, a tsarist style democracy in Moscow, a variation of the artificial and failed USSR in Beijing, and the USA continuing to remake itself.

In short it's chaos vs stability. The choice is between erratic and authoritarian leaders in Moscow and Beijing vs steady and predictable hands in North America and Europe. Classic Western Liberalism has a habit of consistently prevailing..

Compared to the USA sharemarket bubble

and at the end of the day it comes to attitude of the population.. At the end of the day I will bet on the vibrance and energy of the Chinese population over the American population who have shown repeatedly what happens to their society following the aftermath of hurricane disasters, glitches in foodstamp computer systems and shootings by police officers.

[Asiantravel]

NATO DIPLOMAT SAYS PUTIN HOLDS TACTIAL SHORT-TERM CARDS

http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/comment/425058

[Harsh Jones]

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

The petrodollar is going to be around for a long time to come, as is the USD$ as the global currency of both international trade and as a forex reserve. The reasons are there for anyone to see, plainly and unmistakably, both pro-actively and by default. China presents the default position due to the following reality and consequent developments.

The CCP-PRC has a political economy and a financial system that is radically different from any in the West, and even in East Asia, and has produced a proliferation of bubbles throughout its developing regions. The bursting of the CCP's bubbles has begun in the most obvious place, the property and housing market. The bursting of the many CCP bubbles will occur differently than in the West, the 2008 U.S. subprime property market in particular.

The fact remains however that no bubble anywhere ever ends well. The several major and serious CCP bubbles will burst, as is occurring now in the property and housing market. The property bubble currently bursting is setting off the expected and predicted cascade of the CCP's bubbles bursting.

Further, the Boyz in Beijing are doing exactly the wrong thing, I.e., they are printing RMB as if it were monopoly game money, which it is, and at four times the rate the Fed has created dollars.

China’s property bubble has burst: Economists

BEIJING — China’s property bubble has burst and growth in Asia’s largest economy could slow sharply to less than 6 per cent this year unless the government steps in with fresh stimulus measures, economists at Nomura securities brokerage warned yesterday.

“It is no longer a question of ‘if’, but rather ‘how severe’ the property market correction will be. We are convinced that the property sector has passed a turning point,” the economists said in their research report.

If Beijing eases monetary policy, steps up fiscal stimulus and loosens property sector measures, growth could touch 7.4 per cent. However, this would worsen the current housing oversupply and delay the downturn by a year. This would result in a one-in-three chance of a hard landing by the end of next year, which Nomura defines as growth below 5 per cent for four straight quarters.

http://www.todayonline.com/business/chinas-property-bubble-has-burst-economists?singlepage=true

China’s Housing Market Is Titanic Heading For Iceberg

Chinese real estate tycoon Pan Shiyi said that China’s real estate is like the Titanic about to hit the iceberg. Experts pointed out that house prices might go into a tailspin without government rescue due to tight credit and buyer hesitation.

After the hit, the risk is not only in the real estate industry; but more in the financial industry.

Beijing Maitian Real Estate Broker Zhang Ze said, “Money is tight in the bank and hard to be loaned out because many enterprises are short of cash. Some enterprise bosses sold their own houses at low prices to raise cash. Banks don’t have liquidity.”

http://www.ntd.tv/en/programs/news-politics/china-forbidden-news/20140528/150173-chinas-housing-market-may-collapse-without-bailout.html

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China

There is a dispute between those who see Chinese economic policy as merely being “fine-tuned” and those who see ctive stimulus. The debate is misguided: the level of stimulus may be relevant to the current state of the economy, but it will not affect where the economy is headed.

Regardless of whether it is scattered or intense, monetary stimulus no longer works for the Chinese economy and cannot boost growth.

For every month that passes without powerful action to reform, China eases further into the middle income trap, where once fast-rising economies slowly drift towards stagnation. This gradual failure, not the extent of stimulus, is what matters.

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China | South China Morning Post

Go ahead and hitch your star to the CCP-PRC to find out what it's like to ride a shooting star. The Chinese don't know or understand modern economics and neither does Putin. A hundred years ago both China and Russia were in chaos and travelling rapidly off on warped paths, while the USA was making itself stronger and ever more sustainable. The trends have manifested in what exists today, a tsarist style democracy in Moscow, a variation of the artificial and failed USSR in Beijing, and the USA continuing to remake itself.

In short it's chaos vs stability. The choice is between erratic and authoritarian leaders in Moscow and Beijing vs steady and predictable hands in North America and Europe. Classic Western Liberalism has a habit of consistently prevailing..

China = Creditor nation

USA = Debtor nation

Pretty simple stuff really.

[3NUMBAS]

the oligarks are buying up large parts of central london because it makes more profit per annum . hampstead and belgravia are there favorite locations and few locals can afford to live there now .Barclay square has only 3 local owners now all the rest are foreign

[Publicus]

Bubble ? What bubble ?

Now there's a couple of spidery looking charts wherever you got them and you don't present your source which is no surprise.

The bull market indicated by the S&P index is expected to continue through the end of 2015 when a correction of 8% to 10% is expected and is built into investors decision making.

Expect the S&P to continue to rise to the area of 2200 before the correction occurs.

Putin needs a better broker and so do you.

The CCP-PRC has a debt to GDP ratio of 250%. Gross debt is awful and the best that can be said of net debt is that it just isn't quite as catastrophically awful. Local and provincial government debt alone accounts for 71% of the total ratio.

Currently in a hopeless bubble are the official state banking system and the unofficial underground shadow banking system. Investors expect the CCP Boyz in Beijing to nationalize the banking system before too long, i.e., the government assumes its banking system's debts. That however does not address the credit bubble, which is yet another of the many bubbles floating out there ready to pop at anytime.

Putin's partner in crime is a loser.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Scott

[Publicus]

Strange someone should mention Business Insider to me as I read it regularly

Here is a recent article from BI that speaks directly to your wild speculation generated by the Mad Max 19th century laissez faire absolutists known as the Austrian bunch of "economists" (school you guys like to call it) that you cite and subscribe to.

Goldman Sachs Gives Six Reasons Why This Market Is Nothing Like The Tech Bubble

David Kostin, chief U.S. equity strategist at Goldman Sachs, says the comparison between the recent stock market sell-off and that in March 2000, when the tech bubble burst, "dominated client discussions" last week.

"The current sell-off in high-growth and high-valuation stocks, with a concentration in technology subsectors, has some similarities to the popping of the tech bubble in 2000," he writes in a note.

"Veteran investors will recall the S&P 500 and the tech-heavy Nasdaq peaked in March 2000. The indices eventually fell by 50% and 75%, respectively. It took the S&P 500 seven years to recover and establish a new high, but the Nasdaq still remains 25% below its all-time peak reached 14 years ago."

However, according to Kostin, there are six ways in which the two episodes differ:

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-today-is-not-like-the-tech-bubble-2014-4#ixzz3AoSyrnS4

Your adored Austrian school of economists are the primitive cave dwellers of contemporary economics and finance. The Austrian school and its reactionary subscribers such as yourself love 1929 depression economics and finance. I call you Austrian economists bunch the "Chaos Guys."

The Mad Max school of economics gang.

We're also keenly witnessing what happens at the other end of the radical spectrum, when the CCP Boyz in Beijing try in their pathetic hubris and vanity to build Rome in a day. The CCP Boyz are the old centralized state planners group, school, the opposite of you no holds barred Austrian school guys.

And we are witnessing the flailing campaign of the gold standard Austrian school economists with their pal Putin try to sack Rome in a day.

Just as Pu Yi was the last emperor of China, the Soviet Union was the last empire of the world. The Austrian school of economists are themselves the Knights Templar of the 19th century laissez fair crusaders, destined to the same fate.

[3NUMBAS]

EU expansion is the problem now not communism ,German economy has gone into a nose dive due the economic measures .let the ruskies turn off their gas supply and see how long they last .

EU and US meddling in Ukraine caused all the trouble now its come back to haunt them

[Pakboong]

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

Most of the shareholders in the IMF are not American. China will have the world's largest economy and I guess that should allow them to call the shots.

The petrodollar is going to be around for a long time to come, as is the USD$ as the global currency of both international trade and as a forex reserve. The reasons are there for anyone to see, plainly and unmistakably, both pro-actively and by default. China presents the default position due to the following reality and consequent developments.

The CCP-PRC has a political economy and a financial system that is radically different from any in the West, and even in East Asia, and has produced a proliferation of bubbles throughout its developing regions. The bursting of the CCP's bubbles has begun in the most obvious place, the property and housing market. The bursting of the many CCP bubbles will occur differently than in the West, the 2008 U.S. subprime property market in particular.

The fact remains however that no bubble anywhere ever ends well. The several major and serious CCP bubbles will burst, as is occurring now in the property and housing market. The property bubble currently bursting is setting off the expected and predicted cascade of the CCP's bubbles bursting.

Further, the Boyz in Beijing are doing exactly the wrong thing, I.e., they are printing RMB as if it were monopoly game money, which it is, and at four times the rate the Fed has created dollars.

China’s property bubble has burst: Economists

BEIJING — China’s property bubble has burst and growth in Asia’s largest economy could slow sharply to less than 6 per cent this year unless the government steps in with fresh stimulus measures, economists at Nomura securities brokerage warned yesterday.

“It is no longer a question of ‘if’, but rather ‘how severe’ the property market correction will be. We are convinced that the property sector has passed a turning point,” the economists said in their research report.

If Beijing eases monetary policy, steps up fiscal stimulus and loosens property sector measures, growth could touch 7.4 per cent. However, this would worsen the current housing oversupply and delay the downturn by a year. This would result in a one-in-three chance of a hard landing by the end of next year, which Nomura defines as growth below 5 per cent for four straight quarters.

http://www.todayonline.com/business/chinas-property-bubble-has-burst-economists?singlepage=true

China’s Housing Market Is Titanic Heading For Iceberg

Chinese real estate tycoon Pan Shiyi said that China’s real estate is like the Titanic about to hit the iceberg. Experts pointed out that house prices might go into a tailspin without government rescue due to tight credit and buyer hesitation.

After the hit, the risk is not only in the real estate industry; but more in the financial industry.

Beijing Maitian Real Estate Broker Zhang Ze said, “Money is tight in the bank and hard to be loaned out because many enterprises are short of cash. Some enterprise bosses sold their own houses at low prices to raise cash. Banks don’t have liquidity.”

http://www.ntd.tv/en/programs/news-politics/china-forbidden-news/20140528/150173-chinas-housing-market-may-collapse-without-bailout.html

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China

There is a dispute between those who see Chinese economic policy as merely being “fine-tuned” and those who see ctive stimulus. The debate is misguided: the level of stimulus may be relevant to the current state of the economy, but it will not affect where the economy is headed.

Regardless of whether it is scattered or intense, monetary stimulus no longer works for the Chinese economy and cannot boost growth.

For every month that passes without powerful action to reform, China eases further into the middle income trap, where once fast-rising economies slowly drift towards stagnation. This gradual failure, not the extent of stimulus, is what matters.

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China | South China Morning Post

Go ahead and hitch your star to the CCP-PRC to find out what it's like to ride a shooting star. The Chinese don't know or understand modern economics and neither does Putin. A hundred years ago both China and Russia were in chaos and travelling rapidly off on warped paths, while the USA was making itself stronger and ever more sustainable. The trends have manifested in what exists today, a tsarist style democracy in Moscow, a variation of the artificial and failed USSR in Beijing, and the USA continuing to remake itself.

In short it's chaos vs stability. The choice is between erratic and authoritarian leaders in Moscow and Beijing vs steady and predictable hands in North America and Europe. Classic Western Liberalism has a habit of consistently prevailing..

I certainly hope you are correct. I get paid in dollars. There is evidence that supports Germany and Japan jumping ship and joining BRICS that will give the BRICS 5 of the top 6 world economies.

[Pakboong]

Bubble ? What bubble ?

Now there's a couple of spidery looking charts wherever you got them and you don't present your source which is no surprise.

The bull market indicated by the S&P index is expected to continue through the end of 2015 when a correction of 8% to 10% is expected and is built into investors decision making.

Expect the S&P to continue to rise to the area of 2200 before the correction occurs.

Putin needs a better broker and so do you.

The CCP-PRC has a debt to GDP ratio of 250%. Gross debt is awful and the best that can be said of net debt is that it just isn't quite as catastrophically awful. Local and provincial government debt alone accounts for 71% of the total ratio.

Currently in a hopeless bubble are the official state banking system and the unofficial underground shadow banking system. Investors expect the CCP Boyz in Beijing to nationalize the banking system before too long, i.e., the government assumes its banking system's debts. That however does not address the credit bubble, which is yet another of the many bubbles floating out there ready to pop at anytime.

Putin's partner in crime is a loser.

The major reason to develop BRICS is to cut into the huge profit made by the IMF and the World Bank. We are talking trillions. If it is put into defense and infrastructure it will change the playing field. If it is siphoned of by oligarchs it will change nothing. It is the right idea, We have to see how the execution actually plays out. BRICS ideally will minimize some of those bubbles. Ideally is the big if and we will just have to wait and see. I don't see the IMF taking this without a fight.

The current play seems to be start a war with Russia and drag China in as well. The IMF, as it currently exists, will reap huge profits from both sides of any conflict. The IMF will loan money to the warring parties and the World Bank will loan money to the big construction companies who rebuild both sides. Lets hope there will be something left to work with.

Putin is doing everything he can to hold off going to war. I am sure he knows that he can only do this so long. He knows however that the huge money from BRICS will destroy his enemies from the inside out. He simply has to remain patient and hope he doesn't have to deal with a first strike from the US or the EU.

[Publicus]

Both China and Russia along with the other major BRICS players plan is to create a gold backed currency that will be used among the some 80 current countries who are signing up with BRICS. It is not necessarily the US that have a problem with this arrangement potential but, the IMF shareholders who coincidentally hold the world"s 3rd largest gold reserve. The obvious question should be how can a bank accumulate the world's 3 largest gold reserve in some 60 years by simply loaning money to needy central banks?

The start-up money in 1944 was relatively small so how could they parlay that tiny amount in order to buy hundreds of tons of gold? Obviously, these share holders are making $trillions and they are not about to share it with Putin and BRICS without a fight.

And the BRICs thought dealing with America was tough. Wait till they have to deal with China. Who will be THE major player in this arrangement. It will be interesting, and doubt it will last long. Putin's ego won't deal with this well.

The petrodollar is going to be around for a long time to come, as is the USD$ as the global currency of both international trade and as a forex reserve. The reasons are there for anyone to see, plainly and unmistakably, both pro-actively and by default. China presents the default position due to the following reality and consequent developments.

The CCP-PRC has a political economy and a financial system that is radically different from any in the West, and even in East Asia, and has produced a proliferation of bubbles throughout its developing regions. The bursting of the CCP's bubbles has begun in the most obvious place, the property and housing market. The bursting of the many CCP bubbles will occur differently than in the West, the 2008 U.S. subprime property market in particular.

The fact remains however that no bubble anywhere ever ends well. The several major and serious CCP bubbles will burst, as is occurring now in the property and housing market. The property bubble currently bursting is setting off the expected and predicted cascade of the CCP's bubbles bursting.

Further, the Boyz in Beijing are doing exactly the wrong thing, I.e., they are printing RMB as if it were monopoly game money, which it is, and at four times the rate the Fed has created dollars.

China’s property bubble has burst: Economists

BEIJING — China’s property bubble has burst and growth in Asia’s largest economy could slow sharply to less than 6 per cent this year unless the government steps in with fresh stimulus measures, economists at Nomura securities brokerage warned yesterday.

“It is no longer a question of ‘if’, but rather ‘how severe’ the property market correction will be. We are convinced that the property sector has passed a turning point,” the economists said in their research report.

If Beijing eases monetary policy, steps up fiscal stimulus and loosens property sector measures, growth could touch 7.4 per cent. However, this would worsen the current housing oversupply and delay the downturn by a year. This would result in a one-in-three chance of a hard landing by the end of next year, which Nomura defines as growth below 5 per cent for four straight quarters.

http://www.todayonline.com/business/chinas-property-bubble-has-burst-economists?singlepage=true

China’s Housing Market Is Titanic Heading For Iceberg

Chinese real estate tycoon Pan Shiyi said that China’s real estate is like the Titanic about to hit the iceberg. Experts pointed out that house prices might go into a tailspin without government rescue due to tight credit and buyer hesitation.

After the hit, the risk is not only in the real estate industry; but more in the financial industry.

Beijing Maitian Real Estate Broker Zhang Ze said, “Money is tight in the bank and hard to be loaned out because many enterprises are short of cash. Some enterprise bosses sold their own houses at low prices to raise cash. Banks don’t have liquidity.”

http://www.ntd.tv/en/programs/news-politics/china-forbidden-news/20140528/150173-chinas-housing-market-may-collapse-without-bailout.html

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China

There is a dispute between those who see Chinese economic policy as merely being “fine-tuned” and those who see ctive stimulus. The debate is misguided: the level of stimulus may be relevant to the current state of the economy, but it will not affect where the economy is headed.

Regardless of whether it is scattered or intense, monetary stimulus no longer works for the Chinese economy and cannot boost growth.

For every month that passes without powerful action to reform, China eases further into the middle income trap, where once fast-rising economies slowly drift towards stagnation. This gradual failure, not the extent of stimulus, is what matters.

Why economic stimulus no longer works for China | South China Morning Post

Go ahead and hitch your star to the CCP-PRC to find out what it's like to ride a shooting star. The Chinese don't know or understand modern economics and neither does Putin. A hundred years ago both China and Russia were in chaos and travelling rapidly off on warped paths, while the USA was making itself stronger and ever more sustainable. The trends have manifested in what exists today, a tsarist style democracy in Moscow, a variation of the artificial and failed USSR in Beijing, and the USA continuing to remake itself.

In short it's chaos vs stability. The choice is between erratic and authoritarian leaders in Moscow and Beijing vs steady and predictable hands in North America and Europe. Classic Western Liberalism has a habit of consistently prevailing..

I certainly hope you are correct. I get paid in dollars. There is evidence that supports Germany and Japan jumping ship and joining BRICS that will give the BRICS 5 of the top 6 world economies.

Your statements about Japan and Germany are blue smoke and mirrors fiction.

There is no credible or respected evidence of your claims about Japan and Germany so your off the wall claims don't hold up to the facts.

Japan is among the 11 Pacific Rim governments in the final stage of negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement anchored by the United States which will connect free market economics and democratic societies of the region whose GDP equals some $22 trillion.

Germany is in negotiations with the EU as a whole to establish with the U.S. and Canada the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement that will further connect free market economics and democratic societies in countries of the region whose GDP equals 40% of global DGP.

The two free trade partnerships among governments and counties that share common modern values will further connect national economies into a global force that accounts for more than 60% of global GDP.

Your dreamy fantasies of a 1929 brand of global market chaos notwithstanding.

[Pakboong]

Your statements about Japan and Germany are blue smoke and mirrors fiction.

There is no credible or respected evidence of your claims about Japan and Germany so your off the wall claims don't hold up to the facts.

Japan is among the 11 Pacific Rim governments in the final stage of negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement anchored by the United States which will connect free market economics and democratic societies of the region whose GDP equals some $22 trillion.

Germany is in negotiations with the EU as a whole to establish with the U.S. and Canada the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement that will further connect free market economics and democratic societies in countries of the region whose GDP equals 40% of global DGP.

The two free trade partnerships among governments and counties that share common modern values will further connect national economies into a global force that accounts for more than 60% of global GDP.

Your dreamy fantasies of a 1929 brand of global market chaos notwithstanding.

Had to cut parts to get another quote in.

I don't get the need for sarcasm. The playing field changes as the 1% continues to separate itself from the mass of humanity. The one percent can account for much of the stock market because they use brokers and move big chunks but they cannot replace main street as regular day-to-day consumers. This is all changing at an alarming rate. Just my simple view. I only know for sure that the playing field has changed and I can only guess as to why. We can talk of bubbles but in my opinion, the nature of bubbles is changing very quickly.

It remains to be seen what BRICS will do. I get paid in dollars so I hope it fails miserably but the idea behind it makes sound economic sense to me. The IMF accumuated wealth which has gone to shareholders since 1944. How did they accumulate the world's 3rd largest gold reserve? More than any BRICS country. They only loan money to needy central banks. What could Putin do with that much extra money? I don't know either, it very well could get siphoned of by oligarchs but the idea behind it makes sense at least on the surface. If Putin et al uses that money for infrastructure and defense, lots of things could change very quickly and dramatically.

[Publicus]

Your statements about Japan and Germany are blue smoke and mirrors fiction.

There is no credible or respected evidence of your claims about Japan and Germany so your off the wall claims don't hold up to the facts.

Japan is among the 11 Pacific Rim governments in the final stage of negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement anchored by the United States which will connect free market economics and democratic societies of the region whose GDP equals some $22 trillion.

Germany is in negotiations with the EU as a whole to establish with the U.S. and Canada the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement that will further connect free market economics and democratic societies in countries of the region whose GDP equals 40% of global DGP.

The two free trade partnerships among governments and counties that share common modern values will further connect national economies into a global force that accounts for more than 60% of global GDP.

Your dreamy fantasies of a 1929 brand of global market chaos notwithstanding.

Had to cut parts to get another quote in.

I don't get the need for sarcasm. The playing field changes as the 1% continues to separate itself from the mass of humanity. The one percent can account for much of the stock market because they use brokers and move big chunks but they cannot replace main street as regular day-to-day consumers. This is all changing at an alarming rate. Just my simple view. I only know for sure that the playing field has changed and I can only guess as to why. We can talk of bubbles but in my opinion, the nature of bubbles is changing very quickly.

It remains to be seen what BRICS will do. I get paid in dollars so I hope it fails miserably but the idea behind it makes sound economic sense to me. The IMF accumuated wealth which has gone to shareholders since 1944. How did they accumulate the world's 3rd largest gold reserve? More than any BRICS country. They only loan money to needy central banks. What could Putin do with that much extra money? I don't know either, it very well could get siphoned of by oligarchs but the idea behind it makes sense at least on the surface. If Putin et al uses that money for infrastructure and defense, lots of things could change very quickly and dramatically.

Are you trying to make the IMF seem sinister about its gold holdings?

The IMF is in fact a bank, a global bank.

So how did the IMF get its gold?

It's not a secret.

When the IMF was founded in 1944 it was decided that 25% of initial member subscriptions were to be paid in gold. This is the largest source of the IMF's gold.

All interest payments used to be made in gold (normally).

A member state wishing to acquire the currency of another member could do so by selling gold to the IMF.

Member countries could use gold to repay the IMF for credit previously extended.

The fact is that gold at the IMF has played a minor role since the collapse of the Bretton Woods agreement in the early 1970s.

The only guarantee of a Putin and Brics economized world is chaos, disorder, disruption. There is the real factor of trying to get the 200 countries of the world to agree to a gold standard as Putin the Brics and other anti-Americans are on about.

Returning to the gold standard would result in a devaluing of the dollar, meaning the USD$ would buy less. That would include bonds issued by cities and towns, and corporate debt as well as consumer debt. The lenders would benefit, to include the CCP Boyz in Beijing, but the people who would suffer are the people who have to pay back debt, i.e., the people of the United States.

The fact is that If the United States were to reconnect its money supply to gold the economy could never grow as needed or desired.

Know thine enemy.

[Asiantravel]

Ukraine’s Next Crisis? Economic Disaster

Ukraine’s next crisis will be a devastatingly economic one, as violent conflict destroys critical infrastructure in the east and brings key industry to a halt, furthering weakening the energy sector by crippling coal-based electricity production.

The Ukrainian military’s showdown with separatists in the industrial east has forced coal mines to severely cut production or close down entirely. This has led to an electricity crisis that can only be staunched by cutting domestic production along with exports to Europe, Crimea, and Belarus -- or worse, getting more imports from Russia.

Key industry sources say they will potentially run out of coal in less than three weeks.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Ukraines-Next-Crisis-Economic-Disaster.html

Edited August 19, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Publicus]

Ukraine’s Next Crisis? Economic Disaster

Ukraine’s next crisis will be a devastatingly economic one, as violent conflict destroys critical infrastructure in the east and brings key industry to a halt, furthering weakening the energy sector by crippling coal-based electricity production.

The Ukrainian military’s showdown with separatists in the industrial east has forced coal mines to severely cut production or close down entirely. This has led to an electricity crisis that can only be staunched by cutting domestic production along with exports to Europe, Crimea, and Belarus -- or worse, getting more imports from Russia.

Key industry sources say they will potentially run out of coal in less than three weeks.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Ukraines-Next-Crisis-Economic-Disaster.html

Thanks to the Kremlin and its oligarchs.

Ukraine will be rebuilt by its Western allies and will be a more modern and streamlined place than Russia could ever be to include the CCP-PRC.

Tell Putin to be careful what he wishes for.

Remember the Marshall Plan?

[Asiantravel]

Ukraine’s Next Crisis? Economic Disaster

Ukraine’s next crisis will be a devastatingly economic one, as violent conflict destroys critical infrastructure in the east and brings key industry to a halt, furthering weakening the energy sector by crippling coal-based electricity production.

The Ukrainian military’s showdown with separatists in the industrial east has forced coal mines to severely cut production or close down entirely. This has led to an electricity crisis that can only be staunched by cutting domestic production along with exports to Europe, Crimea, and Belarus -- or worse, getting more imports from Russia.

Key industry sources say they will potentially run out of coal in less than three weeks.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Ukraines-Next-Crisis-Economic-Disaster.html

Thanks to the Kremlin and its oligarchs.

Ukraine will be rebuilt by its Western allies and will be a more modern and streamlined place than Russia could ever be to include the CCP-PRC.

Tell Putin to be careful what he wishes for.

Remember the Marshall Plan?

" Ukraine will be rebuilt by its Western allies "

With what?

Europe's economy needs to grow 5% next year just to keep up with the rising costs... 5%... growth...

But overall industry in Europe contracted over 8% this summer compared to last year...

[Publicus]

Ukraine’s Next Crisis? Economic Disaster

Ukraine’s next crisis will be a devastatingly economic one, as violent conflict destroys critical infrastructure in the east and brings key industry to a halt, furthering weakening the energy sector by crippling coal-based electricity production.

The Ukrainian military’s showdown with separatists in the industrial east has forced coal mines to severely cut production or close down entirely. This has led to an electricity crisis that can only be staunched by cutting domestic production along with exports to Europe, Crimea, and Belarus -- or worse, getting more imports from Russia.

Key industry sources say they will potentially run out of coal in less than three weeks.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Ukraines-Next-Crisis-Economic-Disaster.html

Thanks to the Kremlin and its oligarchs.

Ukraine will be rebuilt by its Western allies and will be a more modern and streamlined place than Russia could ever be to include the CCP-PRC.

Tell Putin to be careful what he wishes for.

Remember the Marshall Plan?

" Ukraine will be rebuilt by its Western allies "

With what?

Europe's economy needs to grow 5% next year just to keep up with the rising costs... 5%... growth...

But overall industry in Europe contracted over 8% this summer compared to last year...

You really think the West couldn't rebuild a developing economy such as Ukraine's?

That's really out of contact with reality.

[F430murci]

DOW is rising again, US CPI tapered to .1 % and housing starts in July exceed 1 mil up 15%.

Meanwhile, Russian inflation 7%, rates are 8 % and MICEX teeters on sole bright outlook that Putin may be backing down on Ukraine and the situation may be deescalating there.

Russian lenders and companies are finding it nearly impossible to borrow abroad. The dollar drought has even seen Russian banks accept interest rates on rubles below the central bank's 8.0 percent policy rate to borrow greenbacks.

Why would Putin be inclined to back down in Ukraine and who really has the upper hand?

(Incindentally, the last couple io sentences below puts it into perspective and shows how Putin screws the common man and will run Russia back into the ground because of his greed).

--------

The fact that they're having to raise interest rates to keep their money in the country and to stop it fleeing is very indicative of who has the upper hand, I would say. It is a problem for the ordinary people because it affects anyone who has mortgages or loans in Russia, and because Russia is not the most equal society, it is going to be a big problem, I would say, in the future.

. . .

let me just ask you - you're suggesting that the West really has the upper hand here. And I know there is no way to get into Vladimir Putin's head and totally understand his motivations, but let's say in the coming months that the progress that the Ukrainian government has made in ending this rebellion and this pro-Russia separatist movement ends. Has enough been done here that people might point to these sanctions and say, they really played a key role in pressuring Putin?

[Answer]

I think they could, very well, because the sanctions really show that the U.S. and Europe, they're the ones in control when it comes the money markets in the world and the capital markets. And Russia depends as much on those capital markets as we depend on their oil. And in fact, because of increasing independence on the oil and gas front, we are gaining an upper hand like we've never had before when it comes to Russia. When you think about how Russia spends - well, how the Russian oligarchs spend their money - they don't spend that money back in Russia, they spend it in the South of France, they spend it in London. So that also leaves us with an upper hand because guess what - we can always deprive them access. And what's really sad about the situation is that Russia had this amazing opportunity to use the oil wealth it had to reinvest it in its own country and it wasted that opportunity, to a certain degree. The sanctions are going to show us to what degree they wasted that opportunity because if inflation goes up, if capital leaves the country even more than it has already, we will see that they didn't really make very impressive steps on rescuing their own economy; it was more cosmetic and it was more about empowering this more elite and allowing them to have a very privileged lifestyle in the West.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/18/341283333/have-sanctions-against-russia-for-its-incursion-into-ukraine-worked

Edited August 19, 2014 by F430murci