Thai Immigration issues new police order 327/2557 effective August 29, 2014

[culicine]

So have I got this right.

Ed visa just for 12 months but have to go immigration every 3 months.

And now if you have no degree u have better chance of getting work permit.

where does it say about 'no degree' ?

Clause 2.7 about half way down the OP.

"(4) In case of educational personnel, the alien must have degree or experience that meet the work requirement and the ratio of alien employees shall not exceed 10 percent of total teachers or instructors in a particular education institution."

It's a bit of a stretch to interpret this as "..if you have no degree u have better chance of getting work permit." but I think what Jiimmy means is "...if you have no degree, you have a better chance of getting a work permit THAN BEFORE when only those with a degree could apply."

In the grand scheme of things, having a degree will leverage getting a better paid position with an institution that can probably satisfy both the Thai Immigration and Labour departments criteria more easily.

Not having a degree means you are swimming in bigger but shallower pool.

Read the definition of 'educational personnel - that does not include teachers. So it is saying that librarians, admin (god forbid), don't need degrees, and the foreign 'ed personnel', should not exceed 10% of total staff. That does not mean foreign teachers cannot exceed 10% of total staff.

[Mario2008]

Hello, I have just become a father and I am married to my Thai wife for several years, but I never applied for a one year visa (with the stamp "Thai wife"), because I always went back to my country and so the NON O visa 90 days plus the 60 days extension was enough for me before,but now I want to do, what changes should I expect? and is much more difficult? which are the conditions that I will have to submit?

Thank you so much for the explanation, i'm not native English speaker and is difficult to fully understand, I see some 'panic' in the forum and I can not imagine my situation.

thank you

The rules for an extension of stay based on being married to a Thai national have not been changed so there is no reason to panic.

The main criteria is that you live with your wife and have an income of 40,000 a month OR 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for 2 months.

Income from abroad is certified by your embassy, money in the bank must be in your name only and is shown by bank letter and bank book.

Next you will need a whole list of papers to proof your marriage and that the relationship is factual.

[ubonjoe]

Hello, I have just become a father and I am married to my Thai wife for several years, but I never applied for a one year visa (with the stamp "Thai wife"), because I always went back to my country and so the NON O visa 90 days plus the 60 days extension was enough for me before,but now I want to do, what changes should I expect? and is much more difficult? which are the conditions that I will have to submit?

Thank you so much for the explanation, i'm not native English speaker and is difficult to fully understand, I see some 'panic' in the forum and I can not imagine my situation.

thank you

You will apply for an extension of stay based upon marriage to a Thai lady. There are no changes to the requirements for this extension.

You need to have 400,000 baht in a Thai bank in your name only or proof of 40,000 baht income.

If you are on a non-o visa entry now the a 60 day extension now you can apply for it during the last 30 days of your permit to stay.

No reason to worry. I suggest you contact your local immigration office to get a list of their required documents.

[Mario2008]

Read the definition of 'educational personnel - that does not include teachers. So it is saying that librarians, admin (god forbid), don't need degrees, and the foreign 'ed personnel', should not exceed 10% of total staff. That does not mean foreign teachers cannot exceed 10% of total staff.

Educational personnel does indeed not include teachers, but probably does include teaching assistants etc. That is a way some people use to teach if they don't have a degree and can't get a waiver. It is a loophole that has now become more difficult.

[casualbiker]

So have I got this right.

Ed visa just for 12 months but have to go immigration every 3 months.

And now if you have no degree u have better chance of getting work permit.

where does it say about 'no degree' ?

Clause 2.7 about half way down the OP.

"(4) In case of educational personnel, the alien must have degree or experience that meet the work requirement and the ratio of alien employees shall not exceed 10 percent of total teachers or instructors in a particular education institution."

It's a bit of a stretch to interpret this as "..if you have no degree u have better chance of getting work permit." but I think what Jiimmy means is "...if you have no degree, you have a better chance of getting a work permit THAN BEFORE when only those with a degree could apply."

In the grand scheme of things, having a degree will leverage getting a better paid position with an institution that can probably satisfy both the Thai Immigration and Labour departments criteria more easily.

Not having a degree means you are swimming in bigger but shallower pool.

Read the definition of 'educational personnel - that does not include teachers. So it is saying that librarians, admin (god forbid), don't need degrees, and the foreign 'ed personnel', should not exceed 10% of total staff. That does not mean foreign teachers cannot exceed 10% of total staff.

But it also seems to suggest that they need a teaching license! Which requires a degree so not really easy to understand. Immigration don't need a degree BUT if you have to have a teaching license then you need a degree from TCT.

Some clarification would be nice.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Mario2008]

But it also seems to suggest that they need a teaching license! Which requires a degree so not really easy to understand. Immigration don't need a degree BUT if you have to have a teaching license then you need a degree from TCT.

Some clarification would be nice.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

if you look at the teachers and educational personnel act of 2003 it regulates who needs a teaching license. I can't find an English translation, but haven't really looked for it.

But under that law it seems educational personnel not being a teacher or school administrator do not need a teaching license. That is logical, as they don't teach.

[casualbiker]

But it also seems to suggest that they need a teaching license! Which requires a degree so not really easy to understand. Immigration don't need a degree BUT if you have to have a teaching license then you need a degree from TCT.

Some clarification would be nice.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

if you look at the teachers and educational personnel act of 2003 it regulates who needs a teaching license. I can't find an English translation, but haven't really looked for it.

But under that law it seems educational personnel not being a teacher or school administrator do not need a teaching license. That is logical, as they don't teach.

I agree it is logical but then we are in Thailand, so sometimes logical just isn't available. I'm just looking at the section in the translated document. Which states they need one. Unless the translator got lazy. That's why I'm asking!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[aleKK]

Hello, I have just become a father and I am married to my Thai wife for several years, but I never applied for a one year visa (with the stamp "Thai wife"), because I always went back to my country and so the NON O visa 90 days plus the 60 days extension was enough for me before,but now I want to do, what changes should I expect? and is much more difficult? which are the conditions that I will have to submit?

Thank you so much for the explanation, i'm not native English speaker and is difficult to fully understand, I see some 'panic' in the forum and I can not imagine my situation.

thank you

You will apply for an extension of stay based upon marriage to a Thai lady. There are no changes to the requirements for this extension.

You need to have 400,000 baht in a Thai bank in your name only or proof of 40,000 baht income.

If you are on a non-o visa entry now the a 60 day extension now you can apply for it during the last 30 days of your permit to stay.

No reason to worry. I suggest you contact your local immigration office to get a list of their required documents.

thank you very much Ubonjoe!

[hugh2121]

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends;

Section 2.22 Retirement.

Does this mean the actual income documents can be submitted to immigration without having to get the VERY expensive letter from our embassy?

[JLCrab]

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends;

Section 2.22 Retirement.

Does this mean the actual income documents can be submitted to immigration without having to get the VERY expensive letter from our embassy?

The language in the new police order is identical to the old police order for that section.

[hugh2121]

2.22 In the case of retirement:

Each permission shall be granted

for no more than one year.

1. Application form

2. Copy of applicant’s passport

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

4. Funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook

5. Only in the case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4

stated above

First thank you for all the work to translate. I just read this about the retirement visa and to me it looks like for those that have to

show evidence of income they used to get a letter from USA Embassy without showing proof of income, however now it looks like proof is required or am I missing some clause from somewhere else?

I am not talking about proof from the bank 800,000 baht.

I am talking about the minimum monthly income that I think was 65,000 baht. Now it seems proof of retirement pension , interest or dividends. I don't understand about this Only in the case of Criterion 6, what is that?

thanks again for all the feedback.and explanations.

Nothing has changed, the letter from the embassy is the proof.

Are you sure Mario?

[hugh2121]

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends;

Section 2.22 Retirement.

Does this mean the actual income documents can be submitted to immigration without having to get the VERY expensive letter from our embassy?

The language in the new police order is identical to the old police order for that section.

Thanks JL. Looks like I'll continue to be ripped off by British Embassy, HMRC and all the other official parasites!

[BlackJack]

I am trying to keep up reading this but its just coming to fast. So mods you have your work cut out. Thanks for the replies.

In 138 -2557 section 2.5 Investment of no less than 3 Million baht or B 10 million baht

So for the 3 million investment this must have been done before 2006 and the 10 million investment done before 2011 -

I take it that this investment avenue is now closed to new investors?

If so its a pity as there are loads of vacant condos that need selling

[ubonjoe]

I am trying to keep up reading this but its just coming to fast. So mods you have your work cut out. Thanks for the replies.

In 138 -2557 section 2.5 Investment of no less than 3 Million baht or B 10 million baht

So for the 3 million investment this must have been done before 2006 and the 10 million investment done before 2011 -

I take it that this investment avenue is now closed to new investors?

If so its a pity as there are loads of vacant condos that need selling

Where are you getting 2011 from. I don't see it mentioned in either order.

You could do it now if you had 10 million baht in the bank.

[aleKK]

Hello, I have just become a father and I am married to my Thai wife for several years, but I never applied for a one year visa (with the stamp "Thai wife"), because I always went back to my country and so the NON O visa 90 days plus the 60 days extension was enough for me before,but now I want to do, what changes should I expect? and is much more difficult? which are the conditions that I will have to submit?

Thank you so much for the explanation, i'm not native English speaker and is difficult to fully understand, I see some 'panic' in the forum and I can not imagine my situation.

thank you

The rules for an extension of stay based on being married to a Thai national have not been changed so there is no reason to panic.

The main criteria is that you live with your wife and have an income of 40,000 a month OR 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for 2 months.

Income from abroad is certified by your embassy, money in the bank must be in your name only and is shown by bank letter and bank book.

Next you will need a whole list of papers to proof your marriage and that the relationship is factual.

Thank you a lot Mario!

[ChiTownHustla]

Clause 2.9 In the case of enrollment in a private educational institution:
This is the most common extension for attending a school. It is possible that language schools may fall under these changes.

Adds

(2) In case of nonformal school, each permission shall be granted for a period certified by the educational institution, for no more than 90 days, total length of stay shall not exceed

one year from the date of entering the Kingdom.

Wow, thanks for actually clarifying nothing.

[paz]

Clause 2.9 In the case of enrollment in a private educational institution:

This is the most common extension for attending a school. It is possible that language schools may fall under these changes.

Adds

(2) In case of nonformal school, each permission shall be granted for a period certified by the educational institution, for no more than 90 days, total length of stay shall not exceed

one year from the date of entering the Kingdom.

Wow, thanks for actually clarifying nothing.

Actually it clarifies very well what many imm. offices (but not all) have been been doing since a year or so.

[Mario2008]

Nothing has changed, the letter from the embassy is the proof.

Are you sure Mario?

Yes, I am sure.

The rules haven't changed in this respect and as usual immigration can ask for additional proof.

[Mario2008]

Clause 2.9 In the case of enrollment in a private educational institution:

This is the most common extension for attending a school. It is possible that language schools may fall under these changes.

Adds

(2) In case of nonformal school, each permission shall be granted for a period certified by the educational institution, for no more than 90 days, total length of stay shall not exceed

one year from the date of entering the Kingdom.

Wow, thanks for actually clarifying nothing.

It shows that if you don't study at a regular school, you now only get an extension of stay for 90 days at a time. (Up till now it was possible to get 1 year extensions of stay if you for example studied at a language school. Now only students at regular schools, such as a high school, college or university can get a 1 year extension.

It further limits the time you can study at non-formal schools to 1 year from the date of entry into the country. That means you cannot get an Ed-visa if you just lost your job after 3 years working in Thailand. You must go abroad and apply for an ED-visa there.

If you can leave the country after 1 year of study to get a new ED-visa and go to the same or another school will depend on the consulate you apply and the rules the Thai Foreign Ministry will set. That remains to be seen.

What is sure that the new rules will effect people doing a dive course or study Muay Thai. The question is if it will also effect language schools, but in my humble opinion language schools are seen as tutoring and thus fall under the new rules. But that is only my estimate and it also leaves the question what will happen with people studying at this moment and having been doing so already for more than 1 year.

I am sure language school owners will want to know their position to and are trying to find out how the new rules will effect their business and students. Hopefully they will post soon.

[JLCrab]

The word used in the English translation of the new Police Order and supporting documents is 'evidence' not 'proof' as in:

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

[ubonjoe]

The word used in the English translation of the new Police Order and supporting documents is 'evidence' not 'proof' as in:

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

Which is the same as the old one.

[JLCrab]

The word used in the English translation of the new Police Order and supporting documents is 'evidence' not 'proof' as in:

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

Which is the same as the old one.

True -- but in the new or the old one it does not say 'proof' as a sworn affidavit from e.g. the US Embassy is evidence of income but it is not proof of anything.

[paz]

True -- but in the new or the old one it does not say 'proof' as a sworn affidavit from e.g. the US Embassy is evidence of income but it is not proof of anything.

You've been banging to this drum for so many postings that are useful to nobody.

Immigration wants and affidavit or letter to issue an extension of stay. End of it. Whatever it proves or provides evidence about, or doesn't, is irrelevant.

[ChiTownHustla]

Clause 2.9 In the case of enrollment in a private educational institution:

This is the most common extension for attending a school. It is possible that language schools may fall under these changes.

Adds

(2) In case of nonformal school, each permission shall be granted for a period certified by the educational institution, for no more than 90 days, total length of stay shall not exceed

one year from the date of entering the Kingdom.

Wow, thanks for actually clarifying nothing.

It shows that if you don't study at a regular school, you now only get an extension of stay for 90 days at a time. (Up till now it was possible to get 1 year extensions of stay if you for example studied at a language school. Now only students at regular schools, such as a high school, college or university can get a 1 year extension.

It further limits the time you can study at non-formal schools to 1 year from the date of entry into the country. That means you cannot get an Ed-visa if you just lost your job after 3 years working in Thailand. You must go abroad and apply for an ED-visa there.

If you can leave the country after 1 year of study to get a new ED-visa and go to the same or another school will depend on the consulate you apply and the rules the Thai Foreign Ministry will set. That remains to be seen.

What is sure that the new rules will effect people doing a dive course or study Muay Thai. The question is if it will also effect language schools, but in my humble opinion language schools are seen as tutoring and thus fall under the new rules. But that is only my estimate and it also leaves the question what will happen with people studying at this moment and having been doing so already for more than 1 year.

I am sure language school owners will want to know their position to and are trying to find out how the new rules will effect their business and students. Hopefully they will post soon.

what will happen with people studying at this moment and having been doing so already for more than 1 year.

To get specific, this is more my question/concern....

I'll use myself as an example. My second year of school is scheduled to begin September 1st. I've already been approved by MOE. Under the old rules I'm permitted to stay and study one more year, extending every 90 days at immigration. I'll surely go in with my documents before the 29th, but the question is, will i be grandfathered in, for a year? Or am I going to have a big problem after 90 days?

It seems as though there isn't a definitive answer, although if someone knows something I dont, please chime in.

[JLCrab]

True -- but in the new or the old one it does not say 'proof' as a sworn affidavit from e.g. the US Embassy is evidence of income but it is not proof of anything.

You've been banging to this drum for so many postings that are useful to nobody.

Immigration wants and affidavit or letter to issue an extension of stay. End of it. Whatever it proves or provides evidence about, or doesn't, is irrelevant.

Thank you. The word 'proof' does not occur in the translation of an official Thai government document. The word 'evidence' does. Someday someone could be in an unpleasant situation because somebody in a supposed position of authority substituted a word in explaining some government document that was not in the original.

Edited August 9, 2014 by JLCrab

[iamariva1957]

Clause 2.7 In the case of a teacher, professor, expert or educational personnel in a private educational institution:

Adds the following:

Educational Personnel is: Person performing librarian, guidance, educational technology, registration and evaluation, general administration, supporter of education as specified by the Private Education Commission

Also adds the following under Criteria for Consideration.

(4) In case of educational personnel, the alien must have degree or experience that meet the work requirement and the ratio of alien employees shall not exceed

So I guess that the old rule of needing a degree is now not the only way you can get a WP as a teacher. The inclusion of the word "experience" as a separate entity (as indicated by the use of the word "or" in the statement) allows those with enough life experience and a TEFL (or equivalent) to be able to share what we know with students legally. Good! Well... maybe good. Guess we will have to see what is done with this passage in the new law. Somehow I think that there was something lost in translation perhaps. For the way it is written is too logical... which is not a Thai thing.

But I live in hope!

[casualbiker]

Clause 2.7 In the case of a teacher, professor, expert or educational personnel in a private educational institution:

Adds the following:

Educational Personnel is: Person performing librarian, guidance, educational technology, registration and evaluation, general administration, supporter of education as specified by the Private Education Commission

Also adds the following under Criteria for Consideration.

(4) In case of educational personnel, the alien must have degree or experience that meet the work requirement and the ratio of alien employees shall not exceed

So I guess that the old rule of needing a degree is now not the only way you can get a WP as a teacher. The inclusion of the word "experience" as a separate entity (as indicated by the use of the word "or" in the statement) allows those with enough life experience and a TEFL (or equivalent) to be able to share what we know with students legally. Good! Well... maybe good. Guess we will have to see what is done with this passage in the new law. Somehow I think that there was something lost in translation perhaps. For the way it is written is too logical... which is not a Thai thing.

But I live in hope!

Educational personal. Not teacher.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ClareQuilty]

Private schools can only have 10% foreigners. Am I reading that correctly?

Language schools? International Schools?

I know it seems a pretty rough deal, but I think people education in this country are used to it - 10% of the teachers actually teaching is better than none, right?

[paz]

Private schools can only have 10% foreigners. Am I reading that correctly?

Language schools? International Schools?

I know it seems a pretty rough deal, but I think people education in this country are used to it - 10% of the teachers actually teaching is better than none, right?

Again as above: educational personnel. Not teachers.

[ClareQuilty]

Private schools can only have 10% foreigners. Am I reading that correctly?

Language schools? International Schools?

I know it seems a pretty rough deal, but I think people education in this country are used to it - 10% of the teachers actually teaching is better than none, right?

Again as above: educational personnel. Not teachers.

Yeah I know. 'Education personnel' or 'teachers', same same = Thai staff. Point being, if you have money you want real teachers, and having to hire 90% filler to do so is more than worth it.