Tabian Bahn "Housemaster" question.

[96tehtarp]

Under what circumstances can an alien here on extension of stay be listed as the "housmaster", if any?

[ubonjoe]

Never

Only a Thai can be a the head of household.

[mahjongguy]

Never? In translations I have seen the holder of a 30-year lease is considered the housemaster.

[thedemon]

Never

Only a Thai can be a the head of household.

An Alien with Permanent Residence can also be listed as Jao Bahn.

[Maestro]

Under what circumstances can an alien here on extension of stay be listed as the "housmaster", if any?

"House Master" (เจ้าบ้าน) is defined in Section 4 of the Immigation Act, as follows:

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of

owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

However, you are asking about it in connection with the house registration book. Where did you come accross "House Master" in that connection?

[96tehtarp]

Under what circumstances can an alien here on extension of stay be listed as the "housmaster", if any?

"House Master" is defined in Section 4 of the Immigation Act, as follows:

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of

owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

However, you are asking about it in connection with the house registration book. Where did you come accross "House Master" in that connection?

It seems I assumed incorrectly that "House Master" equates with "Jao Bahn" in the blue book. Perhaps they are two different things?

Can a foreigner be "Jao Bahn" and control who is added to the blue book where the land is the foreigner's under usufruct? It is my understanding that only the "Jao Bahn" can authorize the addition or removal of people from the blue/yellow books. I think Joe summed up the answer as: No!

[Maestro]

I see it now. The Thai text เจ้าบ้าน (House Master) is on page 2, next to the ID number of the first person entered in the house registration book. I had first looked at a blue book without any persons entered in it.

[JesseFrank]

Since a foreigner officially can own a house it should be technically possible to have his name entered as the housemaster.

The blue book concerns the house, not the land.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Can a foreigner be "Jao Bahn" and control who is added to the blue book where the land is the foreigner's under usufruct? It is my understanding that only the "Jao Bahn" can authorize the addition or removal of people from the blue/yellow books. I think Joe summed up the answer as: No!

Yes,

1. As lease holder.

2. As property manager for property owned by his Thai children (until they are age 20).

3. as inheritor of a property.

4. as Condo owner.

5. as owner of a house built on Thai owned land.

There may be a couple more for that list.

Edited August 9, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Maestro]

Several posts in the topic Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process indicate that a Permanent Resident can be the House Master in the blue book (TR.14) of a residence. For other foreigners, it is the yellow book (TR.13).

[mahjongguy]

I think the use of "housemaster" has two parts.

The Land Office has its rules about who can add names to the house book. Immigration has rules about who must file a TM30.

If my name is listed on the top page below that of the owner because I have a lease, Immigration considers me the housemaster but the Land Office does not.

[thedemon]

I think the use of "housemaster" has two parts.

The Land Office has its rules about who can add names to the house book. Immigration has rules about who must file a TM30.

If my name is listed on the top page below that of the owner because I have a lease, Immigration considers me the housemaster but the Land Office does not.

I think you're right. Whoever Immigration considers to be the Housemaster or Householder is not necessarily the same person listed as such in the Tabien Bahn.

It also seems to me another reason why this TM30 reporting of foreigners is a relic of the past. It is quite conceivable that the Housemaster that gives permission to a foreigner to reside at his/her premises could live abroad. So on one hand they are not able to file the report and on the other hand Immigration can't fine someone that they can't find.

[96tehtarp]

Several posts in the topic Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process indicate that a Permanent Resident can be the House Master in the blue book (TR.14) of a residence. For other foreigners, it is the yellow book (TR.13).

Thanks Maestro, I have reread that topic. Thanks also to everyone else for some ideas to think about.

mahjongguy wrote,

"If my name is listed on the top page below that of the owner because I have a lease,"

Can you or anyone confirm that this is possible?

I have found the replies here to be helpful. While keeping in mind Joe's advice I'll try to make this subject a topic for social conversation the next time I talk with the boss at the Amphur. With the help the replies in this topic I think I can get him interested enough in the subject to look into it. I'll report back if I learn anything useful.

[mahjongguy]

"Can you or anyone confirm that this is possible?"

I can certainly confirm it. The blue book for this house lists the owner on the top page and below that, on the same page, my name is listed using phoneticized Thai. Note that I am not a renter; I have a formal 30-year lease.

Being in the book as housemaster hasn't provided much benefit, mainly because it doesn't "prove" that I live there. It only means that I control who gets to live there. Land Transport won't accept it in lieu of the Address Verification from Immigration.

I could get a yellow book because I am on the title page of the blue book. Just have to go to City Hall and jump through their hoops. I haven't done that because it's a pain and I'm lazy.

But, since I am housemaster the property owner does not need to concern himself with TM30 reporting. That responsibility is mine, using TM28 and TM47.

Edited August 10, 2014 by mahjongguy

[96tehtarp]

"Can you or anyone confirm that this is possible?"

I can certainly confirm it. The blue book for this house lists the owner on the top page and below that, on the same page, my name is listed using phoneticized Thai. Note that I am not a renter; I have a formal 30-year lease.

Being in the book as housemaster hasn't provided much benefit, mainly because it doesn't "prove" that I live there. It only means that I control who gets to live there. Land Transport won't accept it in lieu of the Address Verification from Immigration.

I could get a yellow book because I am on the title page of the blue book. Just have to go to City Hall and jump through their hoops. I haven't done that because it's a pain and I'm lazy.

But, since I am housemaster the property owner does not need to concern himself with TM30 reporting. That responsibility is mine, using TM28 and TM47.

mahjongguy, excellent information. Thank you.

"Control over who gets to live there", is my interest.

[Maestro]

I think the use of "housemaster" has two parts.

The Land Office has its rules about who can add names to the house book. Immigration has rules about who must file a TM30.

If my name is listed on the top page below that of the owner because I have a lease, Immigration considers me the housemaster but the Land Office does not.

I believe it is the District Office (amphoe), not the Land Office, that enters names into the house registration book, but you are correct in saying that the definition of house master for entry into the house registration book is separate from the definition in the Immigration Act.

For entry in the hose registration the definition of House Master (เจ้าบ้าน) is in Section 4 of the Civil Registration Act (CRA), of which I do not have an English translation. The Thai version is below and the definition has the addition that it is valid even if the House Master is absent, has disappeared or died:

Civil Registration Act BE 2534 (1991) updated with Act No. 2 BE 2551 (2008) - th.pdf

For the reporting requirement under Section 38 of the Immigration Act, the definition of House Master (เจ้าบ้าน) is in Section 4 of that Act and is identical to the definition in the CRA, with the addition of a reference to the CRA:

Immigration Act 2522 en - immigration.pdf

Immigration Act 2522 th - immigration.pdf

[Maestro]

"Can you or anyone confirm that this is possible?"

I can certainly confirm it. The blue book for this house lists the owner on the top page and below that, on the same page, my name is listed using phoneticized Thai. Note that I am not a renter; I have a formal 30-year lease.

Being in the book as housemaster hasn't provided much benefit, mainly because it doesn't "prove" that I live there. It only means that I control who gets to live there. Land Transport won't accept it in lieu of the Address Verification from Immigration

...

This is interesting, as you are saying that two persons are listed in the blue book with the status of House Master. For each person listed in the book, his/her status in the household is shown on the line with the person's ID number, after the text สถานถาพ. Would you please check whether for the house for which you have a lease, the Thai text เจ้าบ้าน has indeed been added for both the owner and for you? It makes sense to me that this should be the case, because it is indeed you who should have the exclusive control over what other Thai national or Permanent Resident gets added to this blue book.

[mahjongguy]

In a PM today to the OP, I corrected what I had said in my post above.

I took a better look at the blue book than I ever had before, and I hadn't described it accurately. The inside of the book's cover has some rules regarding ownership and a big block of red text about penalties. It is within that red box (for lack of any other available space) that my name is printed in Thai character homophones.

Then, page 1 has the address, page 2 has the owner's name. The following pages would list the names of any citizens registered at that address.

On the chanote, my name is listed as the most recent entry, in the next block after the purchaser's name.

I'm sorry that I cannot read the Thai on either document.

[Maestro]

Several posts in the topic Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process indicate that a Permanent Resident can be the House Master in the blue book (TR.14) of a residence. For other foreigners, it is the yellow book (TR.13).

Thanks Maestro, I have reread that topic. Thanks also to everyone else for some ideas to think about.

mahjongguy wrote,

"If my name is listed on the top page below that of the owner because I have a lease,"

Can you or anyone confirm that this is possible?

I have found the replies here to be helpful. While keeping in mind Joe's advice I'll try to make this subject a topic for social conversation the next time I talk with the boss at the Amphur. With the help the replies in this topic I think I can get him interested enough in the subject to look into it. I'll report back if I learn anything useful.

thedemon and Arkady also confirmed it in that other topic. One interesting point mentioned there is that a Permanent Resident can get listed as House Master in the blue book for a house owned by another person when nobody, not even the owner, has previously been listed in that book. It makes sense, because a listing in the book has nothing to do with ownership, only with residence.

[Arkady]

Never

Only a Thai can be a the head of household.

An Alien with Permanent Residence can also be listed as Jao Bahn.

I am a 'jao baan' and I am a foreigner with PR. You just need the owner of the property, if it is not you, to sign a form giving you permission.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Never

Only a Thai can be a the head of household.

Foreigners can be listed as head,

If you have inherited the house.

If you are manager of your Thai child's property until they reach age 20.

And there are a couple more situations I don't recall.

[paz]

Foreigners can be listed as head,

If you have inherited the house.

If you are manager of your Thai child's property until they reach age 20.

And there are a couple more situations I don't recall.

These situations have been detailed in some of the excellent postings before your brief.