Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[paz]

Can a permanent resident own 100% shares in a Thai company?

No.

Only US citizens, and foreigners shareholders of companies formed under a Board of Investments charter *may* be allowed more than a minority share.

[MacWalen]

Can I read somewhere about it?

[bertty]

Can I read somewhere about it?

Look one post up.

[paz]

Can I read somewhere about it?

Recommend you search or ask in "doing business in Thailand" forum. Nothing to do with this thread.

[thedemon]

Can a permanent resident own 100% shares in a Thai company?

No.

Only US citizens, and foreigners shareholders of companies formed under a Board of Investments charter *may* be allowed more than a minority share.

Not only US citizens. Thailand has bilateral agreements with other countries allowing 100% foreign ownership, under certain circumstances without requiring BOI promotion. However such companies have some restrictions on what they can do. But even Treaty of Amity companies can't, for example, hold land.

Unfortunately Permanent Residents don't get any breaks in this regard.

[thedemon]

I know that a Permanent Resident gets added to the blue household registration book that shows a Thai national as house master (เจ้าบ้าน). If a Permanent Resident owns his place of residence, has the blue book for it and is the head of the household, can he be entered in this blue book as the house master? This question is being discussed here and from several posts in this topic I got the impression that it is the correct thing to do.

I asked this question at my local office because I have a couple of empty Blue books and was considering using one of them to register my name. They answered yes, no problem. In the end I didn't because I couldn't see any advantage and it might be a hassle in the future if I wanted to sell the properties associated with those Tabien Bahn's.

Logically I think the answer would have to be yes because the first name entered into an otherwise empty Blue Book automatically becomes Jao Bahn.

[Arkady]

I know that a Permanent Resident gets added to the blue household registration book that shows a Thai national as house master (เจ้าบ้าน). If a Permanent Resident owns his place of residence, has the blue book for it and is the head of the household, can he be entered in this blue book as the house master? This question is being discussed here and from several posts in this topic I got the impression that it is the correct thing to do.

I asked this question at my local office because I have a couple of empty Blue books and was considering using one of them to register my name. They answered yes, no problem. In the end I didn't because I couldn't see any advantage and it might be a hassle in the future if I wanted to sell the properties associated with those Tabien Bahn's.

Logically I think the answer would have to be yes because the first name entered into an otherwise empty Blue Book automatically becomes Jao Bahn.

You are right. I moved into a house some years ago that was not officially owned by myself and was automatically entered into a blue book as the householder (เจ้าบ้าน), since no one else was registered as living there at the time. If you are not the owner of the property, all that is needed is written permission from the owner which I seem to remember was a standard form that I signed myself as the authorised signatory of the company that owned the house. It doesn't matter if you have an empty blue book or not. These seem to be given out with new properties quite pointlessly by the developers, as they don't convey any special rights and don't save any time or effort in getting registered. I didn't have a blank book but the DO simply issued a new one for me.

[Maestro]

Thank you both for the confirmation.

[thedemon]

I know that a Permanent Resident gets added to the blue household registration book that shows a Thai national as house master (เจ้าบ้าน). If a Permanent Resident owns his place of residence, has the blue book for it and is the head of the household, can he be entered in this blue book as the house master? This question is being discussed here and from several posts in this topic I got the impression that it is the correct thing to do.

I asked this question at my local office because I have a couple of empty Blue books and was considering using one of them to register my name. They answered yes, no problem. In the end I didn't because I couldn't see any advantage and it might be a hassle in the future if I wanted to sell the properties associated with those Tabien Bahn's.

Logically I think the answer would have to be yes because the first name entered into an otherwise empty Blue Book automatically becomes Jao Bahn.

You are right. I moved into a house some years ago that was not officially owned by myself and was automatically entered into a blue book as the householder (เจ้าบ้าน), since no one else was registered as living there at the time. If you are not the owner of the property, all that is needed is written permission from the owner which I seem to remember was a standard form that I signed myself as the authorised signatory of the company that owned the house. It doesn't matter if you have an empty blue book or not. These seem to be given out with new properties quite pointlessly by the developers, as they don't convey any special rights and don't save any time or effort in getting registered. I didn't have a blank book but the DO simply issued a new one for me.

Developers give them out because they are necessary in order to have electricity connected.

[Old Man River]

I know that a Permanent Resident gets added to the blue household registration book that shows a Thai national as house master (เจ้าบ้าน). If a Permanent Resident owns his place of residence, has the blue book for it and is the head of the household, can he be entered in this blue book as the house master? This question is being discussed here and from several posts in this topic I got the impression that it is the correct thing to do.

I asked this question at my local office because I have a couple of empty Blue books and was considering using one of them to register my name. They answered yes, no problem. In the end I didn't because I couldn't see any advantage and it might be a hassle in the future if I wanted to sell the properties associated with those Tabien Bahn's.

Logically I think the answer would have to be yes because the first name entered into an otherwise empty Blue Book automatically becomes Jao Bahn.

You are right. I moved into a house some years ago that was not officially owned by myself and was automatically entered into a blue book as the householder (เจ้าบ้าน), since no one else was registered as living there at the time. If you are not the owner of the property, all that is needed is written permission from the owner which I seem to remember was a standard form that I signed myself as the authorised signatory of the company that owned the house. It doesn't matter if you have an empty blue book or not. These seem to be given out with new properties quite pointlessly by the developers, as they don't convey any special rights and don't save any time or effort in getting registered. I didn't have a blank book but the DO simply issued a new one for me.

Correct me if I am wrong: a non-thai can own the improvements on a piece of property, but not the land.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Arkady]

Correct me if I am wrong: a non-thai can own the improvements on a piece of property, but not the land.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

For the real estate thread really but foreigners can own structures on land (superficies), if they have a long-term lease or usufruct agreement for the land. However, the Land Dept will not always agree to do this, particularly if the title deed has already been issued for the house and land together. In most cases it is done in the case of a new build when a new house number is issued and a separate title deed can be issued for the house from scratch. Anyway PR certainly conveys no rights of property ownership or business ownership or, indeed, any real privileges beyond the right to stay permanently in the Kingdom. Even the right to get a work permit without Thai staff has now fallen by the wayside.

[Old Man River]

Correct me if I am wrong: a non-thai can own the improvements on a piece of property, but not the land.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

For the real estate thread really but foreigners can own structures on land (superficies), if they have a long-term lease or usufruct agreement for the land. However, the Land Dept will not always agree to do this, particularly if the title deed has already been issued for the house and land together. In most cases it is done in the case of a new build when a new house number is issued and a separate title deed can be issued for the house from scratch. Anyway PR certainly conveys no rights of property ownership or business ownership or, indeed, any real privileges beyond the right to stay permanently in the Kingdom. Even the right to get a work permit without Thai staff has now fallen by the wayside.

Thank you. It looks like little has changed.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Bangel72]

Does anyone have any details regarding the rejection process for PR application? Do they do this fairly early in the application process or is it a single decision at the end?

Any info from anyone with real experience of this would be preferred rather than speculation or official guideline info.

Thanks

[Mario2008]

If your application doesn't stand a chance you will be told at the beginning when you submit your documents and they will not accept your application. Being accepted means you have a good chance.

[samran]

Does anyone have any details regarding the rejection process for PR application? Do they do this fairly early in the application process or is it a single decision at the end?

Any info from anyone with real experience of this would be preferred rather than speculation or official guideline info.

Thanks

For Thai civil servants to pass anything on to their superiors they have the concept of 'perfect' or 'beautiful' paperwork.

If an application is incomplete or clearly doesn't have an excellent chance to qualify it simply won't be accepted.

[Arkady]

Does anyone have any details regarding the rejection process for PR application? Do they do this fairly early in the application process or is it a single decision at the end?

Any info from anyone with real experience of this would be preferred rather than speculation or official guideline info.

Thanks

Applicants who clearly don't meet the basic qualifications will be told immediately by Immigration and can thus save the non-refundable application fee. However, some applications can be accepted by Immigration initially but rejected higher up in Immigration or by the Immigration Commission which comprises people from different govt agencies. Examples I know are two applicants who were rejected after 2-3 years because it transpired they were directors of other companies and didn't have those jobs noted in their work permits. They were told they could reapply after fixing the problem. Another person I knew was rejected later because he was working for a rep office which is not strictly prohibited by the regulations but is not liked because it is not a company paying tax in Thailand and needs a special waiver from some one senior to get through the first round. He reapplied the next year after his employer changed its status to a limited company and was approved. I have also heard of people being rejected later on because their companies only had 2 million in paid up capital. There again, they were qualified according the regulations, so their applications were accepted initially but trashed by the higher ups. These latter cases took place when the application fee was only B2,000. Since it was increased, I don't know, if applicants are still rejected out of hand like that but anything is possible in the shifting tides of government bureaucracy, depending on who is in power at the time.

You asked about rejections. Yes, it can happen, as I said, but the vast majority whose applications are initially accepted get processed eventually. If you are in any doubt, go and ask the staff at CW what your chances would be before going to the trouble of preparing all the documentation.

[Hideout]

Renewed my Permanent Residency book yesterday at CW as it was full. Was surprised that the new Permanent Residency books are

white. Was this a recent change?

[NewlyMintedThai]

They've always been white.

[onthemoon]

The first one you get is blue, renewal books are white.

[Arkady]

The first one you get is blue, renewal books are white.

This is one of the things they should maybe look carefully at when they look at immigration reform. If they can't see their way clear to abolishing the resident and alien books and replacing them with a smart card that is also an automatic work permit, just keep them all blue. They look much nice and don't get dirty so easily.

[onthemoon]

I, on the other hand, don't care what colour the book is, but it is a total waste of resources. It has no purpose. The only thing that it is good for is that the stamp that you get in your passport is repeated in the book.

Oh yes, it does show your name in Thai. We can already get a pink ID card for that. the only problem with the pink ID card is that the software is so buggy that they can't be issued. But the pink ID card easily replaces both the PR book and the other dark-red book, which has no purpose either.

Who is the Minister of the Interior at the moment? I think I'll write him a letter. The government can save a lot of money and headache if they get the vendor to fix the software for the pink ID card, and just issue a ministerial decree that the two books are no longer needed.

[onthemoon]

Forgot to mention: You (Arkady) say that the pink ID card should include a work permit. I see that a bit differently, I say that holders of a pink ID card should not be required to apply for a work permit.

But that's the next step.

[Arkady]

I, on the other hand, don't care what colour the book is, but it is a total waste of resources. It has no purpose. The only thing that it is good for is that the stamp that you get in your passport is repeated in the book.

Oh yes, it does show your name in Thai. We can already get a pink ID card for that. the only problem with the pink ID card is that the software is so buggy that they can't be issued. But the pink ID card easily replaces both the PR book and the other dark-red book, which has no purpose either.

Who is the Minister of the Interior at the moment? I think I'll write him a letter. The government can save a lot of money and headache if they get the vendor to fix the software for the pink ID card, and just issue a ministerial decree that the two books are no longer needed.

I haven't bothered to try myself but I am reliably informed by a friend who did that my Khet in Bangkok is one that refuses to issue the pink card to PRs. Says there are only for migrant labourers from neighbouring countries.

Actually it should not be pink because of the confusion with pink cards issued to stateless persons and migrant labourers. It should look like the Thai ID cards but be a different colour (green?). The Working of Aliens Act should be amended to say that PRs holding this card don't need WPs. The royal decree listing prohibited professions for aliens was due to be amended as an annex to the Working of Aliens Law by early 2009 but the Labour Ministry has never bothered to do that. Now is the time to do that. If they want, they can list jobs that PRs can't do, despite holding the PR ID card. Most don't want to typeset Thai characters or work as labourers, although some may want to work as lawyers, accountants, architects etc and that should be reviewed. The card on the back should say the holder has the right to work except as expressly prohibited by the new royal decree or annex to the Working of Aliens Act,

[onthemoon]

My friend went to Khet Prakhanong to enquire for me what documents are needed for the pink ID card. He was told the same nonsense that it is only for Myanmar, Cambodia and Lao citizens.

So I went there by myself, armed with a print out of the relevant pages of the government manual issued to the Khets how the procedure is for PR holders of any nationality. . I got the docs from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/590057-thai-non-thai-id-card-for-permanent-residents Khet Prakhanong is now very familiar with the procedures. They have conferred with CW many times. However, the program is buggy, which is the only reason they cannot issue it.

I encourage every PR holder to visit that thread and apply for a pink ID with their Khet / Amphur, so that CW puts some pressure on the software vendor to fix the program.

That having been clarified, I don't care much about the colour of the card, but yes, another colour could make sense. Not that I am usually thought to be Cambodian, thought.

The labour law is a different can of worms. The PR (and the card) should initially allow for work which is allowed for foreigners, albeit without the requirement to apply for a work permit.

[Arkady]

A friend with good connections who applied in 2011 just got a call to say his PR application had been approved by the new minister, Anuphong, and would be passed back to CW soon. I think this may not be an isolated occurrence because there has just been an announcement from Anuphong about citizenship approvals. The announcement said that 369 foreign wives wives of Thai nationals and another 272 applicants for naturalisation had been approved for citizenship and their names would be forwarded to the cabinet secretariat for announcement in the Royal Gazette soon. Since it is the same department at the Dept of Provincial Administration (DoPA) that handles PR applications, it is very likely that the same approach is being taken with PR applications.

In addition to the media announcements there is also a short announcement on DoPA's website that contains some interesting wordinghttp://www.dopa.go.th/index.php/information/knowlege/2817-2014-10-10-12-09-13 . It says that the list of names of the wives is to be published on DoPA's website to prevent state officials or other persons from taking advantage of them. Presumably Anuphong is concerned that government officials or lawyers, knowing in advance who is on the list, could contact the applicants and tell them a new quota has opened up and that they can get applicants on to it for a couple of hundred thousand baht, as we heard was done by sharp lawyers acting on behalf of PR applicants just before the large batches were approved in 2011. Another interesting point is that in the Thai wording it was mentioned that many applicants have waited 5-7 years, with the clear implication that this is too long, although he acknowledges the need for carefully vetting on grounds of national security. This point, of course, is equally applicable to applicants for PR. The fact that Anuphong is showing determination to reduce waiting time and eliminate opportunities for extortion is a good sign.

I don't want to raise any false hopes but I think there is a good chance that Anuphong will free up the PR logjam. The fact that he seems to see long waiting times as a symptom of deliberate lack of transparency and corruption is in sharp contrast the approach of Purachai, the social order campaigner who served as Thaksin's first IM until T got jealous of his popularity. Purachai took the opposite view and accused the police and ministry staff of taking bribes from applicants for PR and citizenship because, as he said, it was plain for all to see that all the applicants were utterly worthless and could have only got past the screening process by paying bribes. Unwittingly perhaps his demand for additional scrutiny was what lengthened the waiting time for PR (used to be only 12 months) considerably and opened up the opportunity for extortion. Since the minister had total discretion over both processes, things can go either way when there is a new. For now this one looks optimistic.

[Arkady]

My friend went to Khet Prakhanong to enquire for me what documents are needed for the pink ID card. He was told the same nonsense that it is only for Myanmar, Cambodia and Lao citizens.

So I went there by myself, armed with a print out of the relevant pages of the government manual issued to the Khets how the procedure is for PR holders of any nationality. . I got the docs from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/590057-thai-non-thai-id-card-for-permanent-residents Khet Prakhanong is now very familiar with the procedures. They have conferred with CW many times. However, the program is buggy, which is the only reason they cannot issue it.

I encourage every PR holder to visit that thread and apply for a pink ID with their Khet / Amphur, so that CW puts some pressure on the software vendor to fix the program.

That having been clarified, I don't care much about the colour of the card, but yes, another colour could make sense. Not that I am usually thought to be Cambodian, thought.

The labour law is a different can of worms. The PR (and the card) should initially allow for work which is allowed for foreigners, albeit without the requirement to apply for a work permit.

I would definitely give the pink card a try along the lines you suggest but I am waiting for my real ID card which I hope to get soon.

[samran]

I reckon given the momentum, if two or three of you got together and send a letter to the minister outlining the issues and requested a meeting, I think you might have a chance of getting a hearing.

Edited October 11, 2014 by samran

[Arkady]

I reckon given the momentum, if two or three of you got together and send a letter to the minister outlining the issues and requested a meeting, I think you might have a chance of getting a hearing.

I understand that an informal working group from the BoI, Thai Chamber of Commerce, Foreign Chambers of Commerce and maybe others has been in discussion with the government and NLA about measures to encourage foreign investment. Streamlining procedures for visas and work permits is high on the list because nearly all foreign investors complain things are too complicated for their expat staff and there is too much overlap between government agencies. One of the proposals has certainly been to clear the backlogs for PR and citizenship applications. They pointed out clearing the backlogs would cost nothing, in fact generate revenue from PR, and would make the govt look friendly towards foreign iinvestors, since most are fairly senior businessmen or runing their own businesses. Heck, they could even arrange a mass ceremony for new PRs or something.

[scorecard]

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The first one you get is blue, renewal books are white.

Blue, when full replaced by white, then white, then white.... been there.

[Willie]

Hi

Would like to know if any PR holders have applied for a new passport outside of TH? Any problems returning to TH, as I’ve noticed the Immigrant Visa says “utilized before (date) if passport remains valid”.

Obviously the old passport would be cancelled, thus no longer valid. FYI - My country does give back the old passport.

Thanks