Could the visa crackdown/AESAN work in our favor?

[96tehtarp]

 

PS: it's not Thais think Filipinos are native speakers. It's just their cheap. No insult to Filipinos teachers intended. I've worked with some great teachers from the Philippines.

 

 

There are now hordes from African countries clammoring for and getting teaching jobs. 20 k is good, 15 k is better. Just ask anyone who advertises these days who the guys who apply are from

 

I met a few African teachers during my last visit to immigration. They are out there and teaching.

[BruceMangosteen]

 

Wrong. The Thais do not think Filipinos are native speakers.

 

It's pretty much a fact, legalties aside, that a non-degree holding farang, is more desirable than a qualified Filipino teacher.

 

 

 

It is not "wrong" my friend. You need to get out more. I've talked with at least one hundred Thai's who think Filipinos are native speakers of English, including school administrators, Thai teachers, Labor Department workers and management, and Immigration officials. I've also talked with taxi drivers and of course, prostitutes. 

 

I'm not sure about your second point. I would disagree as I think a real college degree from an accredited University in a western country where English is what is spoken is something which shows a certain level of education and maturity. I'm talking about actually attending for four years, not "online" etc.. But some disagree as you have stated above.

[benj005]

A native English speaker is going to hold an advantage over people who speak English as a second language. When I was in Korea I worked with Korea teachers who spoke beautiful English. They spoke great English but they still had difficulty explaining certain things. They relied on the foreigners to clear up the issues they faced in the classroom.

We got paid more because the parents demanded ESL teachers from Western countries. It's not just about giving a lesson in English. It's also the day to day interaction with foreigners that makes us so valuable. Most students will never have the chance to interact with a westerner except in the classroom. Filipino teachers are not an adequate substitute for a competent and adequately trained western ESL teacher.

I guess this is why South Korea is a leader in today's economic climate. The Thais had better watch out because Vietnam is poised to be the destination and leader for foreign dollars. They take education and English very seriously. Edited August 12, 2014 by benj005

[benj005]

My girlfriend two little cousins who are 5 and 7 have a Filipino English teacher. Their English is bad. My South Korean students who are the same age would blow them out of the water.

Sad. :(

[Scott]

Racist posts have been removed.  

[biggles45]

'Many smarter types, like Nurses I hear from, are scared silly that they will be replaced by cheaper labor from neighboring nations."

This is not going to happen. Thailand has already announced that with the start of the AEC next year, employment will be restricted to 8 professional categires and nursing and teaching are not among them

I am not sure how the other ASEAN countries will view this protectionism !!

[richard10365]

A lot of you guys may have thought the coming AEC is going to make changes. You are going to be greatly disappointed if you think this is going to benefit non ASEAN nationals. Nothing is going to happen here unless you are from a very highly recognised educational institution and not just any English speaking guys passing by. 

I think you should read what Thailand has agreed to in their services agreement with Asean. If you are in a private school, you should be worried. They will be able to hire cheaper Philippine labor in order to increase their margins. Government schools will probably be directed not to do that.

If you think nothing will happen then ignorance is bliss. It's already happened.

[richard10365]

'Many smarter types, like Nurses I hear from, are scared silly that they will be replaced by cheaper labor from neighboring nations."

This is not going to happen. Thailand has already announced that with the start of the AEC next year, employment will be restricted to 8 professional categires and nursing and teaching are not among them.

Sorry, that's not true.

[culicine]

 

Heh, EP programs cost 120,000 baht a year?  That's a chunk of change for sure...I mean nowhere near international school prices but still...

 

 

 

That's BS in Government schools anyhow. It's apx 25,000baht per year for an MEP and EP a little more since more hours with "native speakers". 

 

Private school EP's can run to 300K or more. Check out the program at muids (Mahidol). Government schools are much cheaper of course. 

[culicine]

 

A lot of you guys may have thought the coming AEC is going to make changes. You are going to be greatly disappointed if you think this is going to benefit non ASEAN nationals. Nothing is going to happen here unless you are from a very highly recognised educational institution and not just any English speaking guys passing by. 

I think you should read what Thailand has agreed to in their services agreement with Asean. If you are in a private school, you should be worried. They will be able to hire cheaper Philippine labor in order to increase their margins. Government schools will probably be directed not to do that.

If you think nothing will happen then ignorance is bliss. It's already happened.

 

AEC or no AEC, it will depend on the wishes of the parents. Private schools already hire them. Perhaps the paperwork will become easier, but I don't see the quality improving over what it is at the moment, unless salaries increase steeply. That applies to all teachers. 

 

I can go back and register as a teacher in Australia if I want, so I'm not worried about the situation here. What I don't like is how some schools have been jacking up their fees, while at the same time slimming down on native speaking teachers. over the past few years, when a native speaker has quit, more often than not they were replaced with a non-native speaker. parent have been led to believe, 'they aren't coming', but the fact is that they are not willing to pay the sort of salary to attract them - at least 50K / month. And that's not even for fully qualified BEd type teachers. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by culicine

[Centrum]

 

 

Wrong. The Thais do not think Filipinos are native speakers.

 

It's pretty much a fact, legalties aside, that a non-degree holding farang, is more desirable than a qualified Filipino teacher.

 

 

 

It is not "wrong" my friend. You need to get out more. I've talked with at least one hundred Thai's who think Filipinos are native speakers of English, including school administrators, Thai teachers, Labor Department workers and management, and Immigration officials. I've also talked with taxi drivers and of course, prostitutes. 

 

I'm not sure about your second point. I would disagree as I think a real college degree from an accredited University in a western country where English is what is spoken is something which shows a certain level of education and maturity. I'm talking about actually attending for four years, not "online" etc.. But some disagree as you have stated above.

 

 

Well gee Bruce, I don't know what your line of business is, but I do know mine and I deal with school administartion. In particular the people who hire English teachers.

I don't think taxi drivers and hookers are going to add much to the debate, but don't let that stop you from 'getting out so much'.

 

So, you can line your 100 up anytime you like and they can come and convince the school admin and parents who refuse to pay for an MEP course run by a Filipino, regardless of their qualification that they are indeed NES. Good luck with that.

 

I think the final nail in this argument's coffin is that Thai schools will only pay around 60-70% for a Filipino teacher against a NES to perform the exact same job.

 

My second point from the quote simply states that a non-degreed farang is acceptable over a degree-holding Filipino teacher to Thai admin and parents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard10365]

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

[benj005]

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Why would you say that? Does this hold true in countries like Vietnam? They big difference between Vietnam and Thailand is Vietnam takes education seriously.

Take a look at South Korea. In 50 short years they have gone from a country steeped in poverty to a very powerful country that competes in today's economic climate. Thailand on the other hand has such a bad reputation. They are just not taken seriously.

Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and Laos are all going to be competing with Thailand. In the past Thailand was THE country to go to if you wanted to experience SE Asia. Not anymore. Times are changing. The almighty foreign dollar is going to go to the countries that adapt the English language.

[benj005]

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Thai youth are horrible English speakers. Probably the worse out of all Asian countries. This happens when you don't take education seriously.

When I think about successful Asian Americans, I never even consider Thais. Normally I think about people from Vietnam, Korea, China, and Japan. Sadly, the Thais that migrate to America work on the low end of the social ladder. I hardly see any Thai doctors, lawyers, or teachers.

[inutil]

You know what, Thailand blows my freaking mind on that exact point for the exact opposite reason you gave. 

 

Schooling is a clusterfk (at least it was for my short stint). 

Ive taught in Japan (6 years), Korea (2 years), and China (1 year), all middle school. The students I taught in Thailand (P4-M3) had far and away the lowest level English. Far and away! 

I was gobsmacked to watch M2 students struggle to read a P4 passage ("This is my sister. Her name is... She likes... Her birthday is..."). 

I was jaw on the floor when they couldnt answer questions beyond "what's your name?" (what do you like?, do you like...?, do you have any brothers or sisters? - these are the very easy warm up questions i usually give to the students in the middle or low sets to try and ease them to the comparatives, pronouns, tense, direction questions et al). It was wide-scale. I even had to get my co-teacher to come sit-in on some of these tests (and even do some) to make sure a) it wasnt my speed/deliver/terminology; and b ) That i wasn't imagining it. 

 

But you know what i found most amazing?

 

I can pretty much get around anywhere in Thailand without a lick of Thai. Theres enough survival English in the general population to make speaking Thai utterly unnecessary. Its far more prolific in the general population than either of the countries already mentioned. I mean, i can get by wherever, but i dont even need some basic workaround phrases. Its just not an issue at all. In Korea youve got a bit of a chance if youre in a big city or speaking to some uni aged students. In japan, no chance, and in China, its pretty much non existent outside of schools (but inside schools, its kind of amazing). 

 

Its a weird weird thing that i could never wrap my head around. Either its the tourism industry at proper work, or every Thai person above the age of 23 has to go to an English boot-camp for 6 months as some kind of pseudo military service. Its just ass backwards. Schooling is incredibly poor. But after school, it just blossoms. Amazing Thailand. :) 

[richard10365]

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Why would you say that? Does this hold true in countries like Vietnam? They big difference between Vietnam and Thailand is Vietnam takes education seriously.

Take a look at South Korea. In 50 short years they have gone from a country steeped in poverty to a very powerful country that competes in today's economic climate. Thailand on the other hand has such a bad reputation. They are just not taken seriously.

Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and Laos are all going to be competing with Thailand. In the past Thailand was THE country to go to if you wanted to experience SE Asia. Not anymore. Times are changing. The almighty foreign dollar is going to go to the countries that adapt the English language.

Why? It would help to explain recent immigration policy changes. This is the Asean agreement I was talking about earlier.

http://www.asean.org/images/2012/Economic/sectoral_aem/service/agreement/AFAS%208%20Set%20for%20Public.zip

[benj005]

You know what, Thailand blows my freaking mind on that exact point for the exact opposite reason you gave. 

 

Schooling is a clusterfk (at least it was for my short stint). 

Ive taught in Japan (6 years), Korea (2 years), and China (1 year), all middle school. The students I taught in Thailand (P4-M3) had far and away the lowest level English. Far and away! 

I was gobsmacked to watch M2 students struggle to read a P4 passage ("This is my sister. Her name is... She likes... Her birthday is..."). 

I was jaw on the floor when they couldnt answer questions beyond "what's your name?" (what do you like?, do you like...?, do you have any brothers or sisters? - these are the very easy warm up questions i usually give to the students in the middle or low sets to try and ease them to the comparatives, pronouns, tense, direction questions et al). It was wide-scale. I even had to get my co-teacher to come sit-in on some of these tests (and even do some) to make sure a) it wasnt my speed/deliver/terminology; and b ) That i wasn't imagining it. 

 

But you know what i found most amazing?

 

I can pretty much get around anywhere in Thailand without a lick of Thai. Theres enough survival English in the general population to make speaking Thai utterly unnecessary. Its far more prolific in the general population than either of the countries already mentioned. I mean, i can get by wherever, but i dont even need some basic workaround phrases. Its just not an issue at all. In Korea youve got a bit of a chance if youre in a big city or speaking to some uni aged students. In japan, no chance, and in China, its pretty much non existent outside of schools (but inside schools, its kind of amazing). 

 

Its a weird weird thing that i could never wrap my head around. Either its the tourism industry at proper work, or every Thai person above the age of 23 has to go to an English boot-camp for 6 months as some kind of pseudo military service. Its just ass backwards. Schooling is incredibly poor. But after school, it just blossoms. Amazing Thailand.

 

It probably has to do with the fact that Thailand is primarily a tourist destination for western tourist. Out of school they have a greater chance to interact with foreigners than other Asian countries. That's my take on it.  

Edited August 12, 2014 by benj005

[IsaanUSA]

By next year SE Asian countries are going to open their borders in an effort to boost the economy.

benj, I think you're a bit mixed up.  There's no border opening.

[CWMcMurray]

Or will it mean less native english speakers and more Pilipino teachers?

As pay is less, so the Benz fund won't be affected...

As per the World bank.. Thailand is already one of the biggest spenders, as a % of government spending, on education...

In 2012... 31.5% of every gov dollar went to education...

Wonder how much of that went to front line teachers and on actual students?

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GB.ZS

Also in a completely unrelated story.... Thailand has the highest per capita of school directors owning Mercedes Benz or other similarly prices vehicles

[BruceMangosteen]

 

 

 

Wrong. The Thais do not think Filipinos are native speakers.

 

It's pretty much a fact, legalties aside, that a non-degree holding farang, is more desirable than a qualified Filipino teacher.

 

 

 

It is not "wrong" my friend. You need to get out more. I've talked with at least one hundred Thai's who think Filipinos are native speakers of English, including school administrators, Thai teachers, Labor Department workers and management, and Immigration officials. I've also talked with taxi drivers and of course, prostitutes. 

 

I'm not sure about your second point. I would disagree as I think a real college degree from an accredited University in a western country where English is what is spoken is something which shows a certain level of education and maturity. I'm talking about actually attending for four years, not "online" etc.. But some disagree as you have stated above.

 

 

Well gee Bruce, I don't know what your line of business is, but I do know mine and I deal with school administartion. In particular the people who hire English teachers.

I don't think taxi drivers and hookers are going to add much to the debate, but don't let that stop you from 'getting out so much'.

 

So, you can line your 100 up anytime you like and they can come and convince the school admin and parents who refuse to pay for an MEP course run by a Filipino, regardless of their qualification that they are indeed NES. Good luck with that.

 

I think the final nail in this argument's coffin is that Thai schools will only pay around 60-70% for a Filipino teacher against a NES to perform the exact same job.

 

My second point from the quote simply states that a non-degreed farang is acceptable over a degree-holding Filipino teacher to Thai admin and parents.

 

 

I don't see the need nor intelligence in reducing the discussion to personal attacks as you have done above. I deal daily(school days) with the people who hire English teachers. The general public are in fact going to contribute to the issue/debate as they pay taxes and are Thai and in fact, are parents in many cases. Parents as most agree, aren't in tune with the Filipino and African and non NES from Europe aspects so your claim they are going to refuse payment is sort of moot. They are sold on the program by deception IMHO with the claim of "Native English Speaking Teachers" in the brochures and general chit chat. Most parents actually think the teachers are also qualified "teachers". All this for 25,000baht a year in tuition! It is quickly put in the correct perspective as I say and then the decisions are based on face and reality.(not to mix the two). The "non degree farang" isn't going to last much longer as you also certainly know. The system is rolling full steam into the 70's and checking degrees and requiring them. This stuff is all new to the "Thai admin and parents" and they refuse to let people from the west advise them. Lastly to prove this point, just look at the English in some of the brochures and sales efforts advertised. One simple proof read by an educated NES would have corrected the errors, but no, that will not be done. Overall, most(as a percentage) don't see the need for NES's aka "teachers" in the schools(Government), to teach English or anything else. We don't understand the culture nor respect it in their opinion. 

[BruceMangosteen]

Also in a completely unrelated story.... Thailand has the highest per capita of school directors owning Mercedes Benz or other similarly prices vehicles

 

There are a remarkable number of expensive cars on your typical Government school campus, driven by teachers. Considering the claim their wages are even lower than the MEP/EP teachers it makes one wonder what sort of Credit Union they have. While you are obviously joking about the Mercedes Benz's, I will say Directors do seem to have nice cars. 

[BruceMangosteen]

 

It probably has to do with the fact that Thailand is primarily a tourist destination for western tourist. Out of school they have a greater chance to interact with foreigners than other Asian countries. That's my take on it.  

 

 

 

While true in perhaps Bangkok and Pattaya and Phuket, I don't see Thai's in general attempting to interact with the foreigners. It IMHO is a very closed society. You get outside the tourist areas and no English is spoken. None. Westerners anyhow, most of them, are also very careful not to interact with children for fear of accusations. 

[Berkshire]

 

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Why would you say that? Does this hold true in countries like Vietnam? They big difference between Vietnam and Thailand is Vietnam takes education seriously.

Take a look at South Korea. In 50 short years they have gone from a country steeped in poverty to a very powerful country that competes in today's economic climate. Thailand on the other hand has such a bad reputation. They are just not taken seriously.

Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and Laos are all going to be competing with Thailand. In the past Thailand was THE country to go to if you wanted to experience SE Asia. Not anymore. Times are changing. The almighty foreign dollar is going to go to the countries that adapt the English language.

 

 

Agree that South Korea's economy and global competitiveness have risen considerably over the past couple of decades.  But truth be told, most Koreans do not speak English well.  I dare say the average Thai speaks better English than the average Korean. 

 

[lostinisaan]

 

 

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Why would you say that? Does this hold true in countries like Vietnam? They big difference between Vietnam and Thailand is Vietnam takes education seriously.

Take a look at South Korea. In 50 short years they have gone from a country steeped in poverty to a very powerful country that competes in today's economic climate. Thailand on the other hand has such a bad reputation. They are just not taken seriously.

Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and Laos are all going to be competing with Thailand. In the past Thailand was THE country to go to if you wanted to experience SE Asia. Not anymore. Times are changing. The almighty foreign dollar is going to go to the countries that adapt the English language.

 

 

Agree that South Korea's economy and global competitiveness have risen considerably over the past couple of decades.  But truth be told, most Koreans do not speak English well.  I dare say the average Thai speaks better English than the average Korean. 

 

 

 

 

 At least much better than the North Koreans do.

[casualbiker]

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Really! You think market traders who probably left school 20-30 years ago at P6 would speak better English now! Why?

I have seen a big improvement generally with the younger university leavers, those now working in banks, offices etc.

[richard10365]

 

With so many superstar foreign teachers in Thailand you would think you can go to the Thai market and order in English. Obviously that is not the case. Whether or not the lack of English speaking ability of Thailand's youth is the fault of the Thai school or the teacher, the blame goes to the foreign native English speaking teacher. Perhaps Thailand has come to the conclusion that native English speaking teachers are not worth the money they are paid. If they were, surely the Thai youth would be speaking better English...perhaps there is a paradigm shift in this regards. Now that warm fuzzy feeling we thought the Thai teachers got when our pale faces graced their classrooms has all but faded away. Like it or not, Asean has paved the way for the foreign (western) teacher to be replaced.

Really! You think market traders who probably left school 20-30 years ago at P6 would speak better English now! Why?

I have seen a big improvement generally with the younger university leavers, those now working in banks, offices etc.

 

hmmm...You have a point. Maybe I should have used 7-Eleven as the example in the first sentence. Regardless, there does seem to be a purge happening directed, for now, at English teachers. There has been improvement but when Thailand ranks near the bottom in the world in English proficiency, Thai people will want to blame someone. Since it's not their fault, being facetious here, the foreigner has to take the blame. The foreigners cost more to employ but can't seem to get the job done. From a business point of view, replacing them makes good sense.

[IsaanUSA]

There seems to be a purge directed at English teachers?  Where on earth do you get that idea from?

[Yooyung]

There is no 'purge' of English teachers. There is however a tightening of rules for qualifications AND loopholes that teachers without the 'right' pieces of paper used are being closed. As a person that worked here without a degree and went home to get one, I am ok with it. Now, I have a degree that is NOT in education, I am needing to study further to stay here....so be it. I worked with a lot of people before that were here on tourist visas, working with dodgey quals etc. SOME and I mean SOME of them were ok, but a lot of them just didnt give a fig about the job. I made the move to get a degree and try to follow the rules, some thought it was overkill, but now they are the ones that are getting nervous. I would hate to be at the bottom of the barrel here now. I STILL have to do some more study, maybe a year, maybe two BUT at least I am not like some that are teaching here.....still needing to get that Bachelors degree.

 

Thailand does things, as always without really giving things much thought. They want teachers, even ones that are teaching in government high schools with 50 kids in a class, no air....broken fans on the roof to have a Bachelor of Education OR equivalent! Its a lovely ideal BUT for 35,000 to 45,000 Baht per month??? I am starting further study within the next 6 months. After I am finished I will be very interested to see what the extra qualification get me apart from a teachers licence. The job I have now is ok but would it justify me having spent perhaps almost 300,000 Baht??? Sitting in a non air conditioned room with 50 kids...40 of which really couldnt care less, a school management team that doesnt know it a** from its elbow????? I may just be sitting there thinking......"and they wanted a Masters degree for this"????? Interesting times ahead for those of us that can meet the teachers councils requirements.