Missionaries in CM - I hear ya knockin'...

[CMHomeboy78]

 

 

northernjohn might have confused leukemia with leprosy, but the point he was making was valid, and relevant to the subject of his post.  If I understand him correctly it is the distinction between what the missionaries have done in the past and what they are doing now.

 

Chiang Mai has a number of schools and hospitals founded by missionaries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are still thriving - although for the most part now run by Thais.

The McKean Institute is a good example. Founded in 1908 by the missionary Dr.James McKean [1860-1949], it became world famous for its innovative treatment of leprosy and the establishment of a community near Chiang Mai where the lepers could live and develop skills to do craftwork.  Before that, many of them lived under the old Saphan Nawarat.

Many other examples could be given of what missionaries have done in the past.  I've read numerous first-person accounts with interest.

What many people would like to know is what they are doing now in addition to evangelizing.

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

[CMHomeboy78]

 

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

 

I didn't fully answer your question in my previous post, so let me give it another try.

The schools I mentioned have all been in existence for some time and are nominally Christian, but they don't push their agenda.  The newer schools like Grace International might.  I really don't know because I have no personal experience with them.

My daughters went to Sacred Heart then Monfort and received religious instruction because I am a Catholic myself [although not a very good one] and I requested it.  If I hadn't requested it, they would have been allowed to follow their own religion without pressure to convert. Most of my daughter's school friends were  Buddhists and one was a Muslim. 

Live and let live.

[Johpa]

 

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

 

 

There is also Payap University whose student base is at best 30% Christian and whose International School is perhaps the most international program I have encountered.  Payap was co-founded by some old school missionaries, some of whom are still around Chiang Mai.  You won't find a more decent and gracious group of missionaries around. And that is high praise coming from an atheist like myself.

[Mapguy]

Chiang Mai International School is also Christian in outook, but quite open to all and provides a good secular education   Grace International School is one more.  Although the school takes its religious views very seriously, they still provide a good secular education for students from all that I have heard.

 

Note how many of these "missionary-founded" schools (as here and above) have been noted. They are generally considered among the "best" in Chiang Mai by parents generally in Chiang Mai.  Best should also include Yuparaj and other Ministry-approved international schools plus some others, usually Thai-owned and operated that have non-sectarian "international programs."  (I would be curious to know if Grace accepts and or teaches "Creationism."

Edited August 13, 2014 by Mapguy

[landtrout]

 

@northernjohn

 

I didn't ask the Jehovah's Witness people how they support themselves. It's none of my business and I couldn't care less. There are a lot of them in Bangkok; both Thai and farang. I'm not interested in them at all. I can't answer your questions. You can contact the organization directly at their Bangkok headquarters.

 

McCormick Hospital has nothing to do with it. Anyone can be treated there and there are plenty of Buddhists (probably 60-70% of the patients) and everyone pays the same.

 

What on earth is a leukemia colony??? Do you really think leukemia is contagious?

 

I think he meant leper colony.   Got the first 2 letters right, then spell checker took over

 

 

 

     If northerndolly does in fact use a spellchecker, it's "defiantly" of a make and model that is not (and should never be) made available to the general public!   
 

[CMHomeboy78]

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

 

 

There is also Payap University whose student base is at best 30% Christian and whose International School is perhaps the most international program I have encountered.  Payap was co-founded by some old school missionaries, some of whom are still around Chiang Mai.  You won't find a more decent and gracious group of missionaries around. And that is high praise coming from an atheist like myself.

 

Thanks for mentioning Payap... an obvious example of a good Christian school that I had overlooked.

They have a microfilm archive containing letters, photographs, and documents relating to the North Thailand Christian Mission founded by McGilvary and his followers in the early 1870s.  Almost every historian who has written about Chiang Mai in the late 19th century has made reference to it because the missionaries were key players in the events that ultimately led to the Chiang Mai chaos losing their power, and Lanna T'ai losing its sovereignty to the central government in Bangkok.

I would very much like to have access to it myself, but since I have no connection to the school, or academic credentials, it may be difficult.  Nevertheless, I intend to give it a try in the near future.

Does Payap University still host concerts?  I remember years ago the Princeton Glee Club, on an Asian tour appearing there.  Wonderful evening of everything from Bach cantatas to 1950s Calypso... a cappella.

[jaideeguy]

What 'their' real agenda [all throughout history] has been to steal souls, mostly from the innocent, uneducated and naive folks that fall victim to their well rehearsed rap and their shiny trinkets that fooled the American Indians, Hawaiians, Filipinos and other cultures that have fallen victim to their sneaky tactics for the last few centuries.................they create monsters!!!!

Falang go home, let the people be and don't dare to knock on my door or I'll sic the devil on you.....................

[Mapguy]

Hello "jaideeguy,"

 

What you say is very harsh.  

 

The meaning of what you said is very clear.  Unfortunately, it could sound as demeaning as the missionaries' mission, as you interpret it.

 

Think about what you have written. What makes you think that you (or the missionaries) are so damn much smarter than "primitive" others about the matters of faith (a belief system) that, for whatever reason, might be (or was) failing them in the face of their reality.  The missionaries gave them an alternative message, which, in some cases, has been comforting and convincing regardless of the religion.  And some of the original religious practices interpreted into original social practices were (in some cases, still are) grusome in terms of modern rational practice.

 

So, in addition to whatever spiritual comfort missionaries have offered for life's unanswered questions for people looking for such comfort (and we all do), they often have at least brought increased medical and educational benefits to be able to exist in a modernizing world.

 

I personally draw a line if a missionary once said (as some did in the old days) that this asprin is my god's gift so believe in my faith which makes you physically feel better.  That is ridiculous, and it is disingenuous, to say the least!  But I do not think that "modern" misionaries, as we know them say this sort of thing.

 

Time moves on.  Regardless of moving on, however, there is still no "ultimate answer" to our questions.  We will always fear what we do not know and seek comfortabout the unknown and th inexplicable.  If  missionaries approach such need in an unselfish way, then I have no concern.  If their faith becomes a "spiritual/clerical business" substaniating their own personal faith, then I draw a line.

 

There is much thought and written about all this, much more sensible that a post here.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Mapguy

[Johpa]

 

 

 

There is also Payap University whose student base is at best 30% Christian and whose International School is perhaps the most international program I have encountered.  Payap was co-founded by some old school missionaries, some of whom are still around Chiang Mai.  You won't find a more decent and gracious group of missionaries around. And that is high praise coming from an atheist like myself.

 

Thanks for mentioning Payap... an obvious example of a good Christian school that I had overlooked.

They have a microfilm archive containing letters, photographs, and documents relating to the North Thailand Christian Mission founded by McGilvary and his followers in the early 1870s.  Almost every historian who has written about Chiang Mai in the late 19th century has made reference to it because the missionaries were key players in the events that ultimately led to the Chiang Mai chaos losing their power, and Lanna T'ai losing its sovereignty to the central government in Bangkok.

I would very much like to have access to it myself, but since I have no connection to the school, or academic credentials, it may be difficult.  Nevertheless, I intend to give it a try in the near future.

Does Payap University still host concerts?  I remember years ago the Princeton Glee Club, on an Asian tour appearing there.  Wonderful evening of everything from Bach cantatas to 1950s Calypso... a cappella.

 

 

I think that the missionaries may have had an influence in local politics of that era, being able to count upon the blessings of the Bangkok palace, but I doubt that they were key players as every other Muang (semi-independent province) fell to the push from Bangkok for obeisance to the Chakri throne and the Rattanakosin Kingdom.  Even the rebellious folks out in Phrae and Song districts, where there was no missionary activity at the time, became vassal states of the mahanakorn of Krungthep. 

 

I imagine that the Payap web page would have notice of any concerts.
 

[CMHomeboy78]

 

 

 

 

There is also Payap University whose student base is at best 30% Christian and whose International School is perhaps the most international program I have encountered.  Payap was co-founded by some old school missionaries, some of whom are still around Chiang Mai.  You won't find a more decent and gracious group of missionaries around. And that is high praise coming from an atheist like myself.

 

Thanks for mentioning Payap... an obvious example of a good Christian school that I had overlooked.

They have a microfilm archive containing letters, photographs, and documents relating to the North Thailand Christian Mission founded by McGilvary and his followers in the early 1870s.  Almost every historian who has written about Chiang Mai in the late 19th century has made reference to it because the missionaries were key players in the events that ultimately led to the Chiang Mai chaos losing their power, and Lanna T'ai losing its sovereignty to the central government in Bangkok.

I would very much like to have access to it myself, but since I have no connection to the school, or academic credentials, it may be difficult.  Nevertheless, I intend to give it a try in the near future.

Does Payap University still host concerts?  I remember years ago the Princeton Glee Club, on an Asian tour appearing there.  Wonderful evening of everything from Bach cantatas to 1950s Calypso... a cappella.

 

 

I think that the missionaries may have had an influence in local politics of that era, being able to count upon the blessings of the Bangkok palace, but I doubt that they were key players as every other Muang (semi-independent province) fell to the push from Bangkok for obeisance to the Chakri throne and the Rattanakosin Kingdom.  Even the rebellious folks out in Phrae and Song districts, where there was no missionary activity at the time, became vassal states of the mahanakorn of Krungthep. 

 

I imagine that the Payap web page would have notice of any concerts.
 

 

Judging from your previous posts you seem to be well-informed about Thai history.

The issue of how deeply involved the American Protestant Missionaries and the British teak wallahs were in the loss of Lanna T'ai sovereignty is a vexed question.

From Chao Kawilarot's contentious relations with McGilvary and the North Thailand Christian Mission to the appointment of a resident Siamese commissioner in 1874, the missionaries were always there, pushing their agenda.  The question is, to what extent were they allowing themselves to be used as pawns by Bangkok to spread its influence and - with the aid of the British - exploit the rich teak forests of the north.

Incidentally, don't allow yourself to be distracted by minor conflicts in places like Phrae and Song.  Chiang Mai and Bangkok were where the decisive events took place.

The period is well-documented, so we can study it and draw our own conclusions.

 

[jaideeguy]

Hello "jaideeguy,"

 

What you say is very harsh.  

 

The meaning of what you said is very clear.  Unfortunately, it could sound as demeaning as the missionaries' mission, as you interpret it.

 

Think about what you have written. What makes you think that you (or the missionaries) are so damn much smarter than "primitive" others about the matters of faith (a belief system) that, for whatever reason, might be (or was) failing them in the face of their reality.  The missionaries gave them an alternative message, which, in some cases, has been comforting and convincing regardless of the religion.  And some of the original religious practices interpreted into original social practices were (in some cases, still are) grusome in terms of modern rational practice.

 

So, in addition to whatever spiritual comfort missionaries have offered for life's unanswered questions for people looking for such comfort (and we all do), they often have at least brought increased medical and educational benefits to be able to exist in a modernizing world.

 

I personally draw a line if a missionary once said (as some did in the old days) that this asprin is my god's gift so believe in my faith which makes you physically feel better.  That is ridiculous, and it is disingenuous, to say the least!  But I do not think that "modern" misionaries, as we know them say this sort of thing.

 

Time moves on.  Regardless of moving on, however, there is still no "ultimate answer" to our questions.  We will always fear what we do not know and seek comfortabout the unknown and th inexplicable.  If  missionaries approach such need in an unselfish way, then I have no concern.  If their faith becomes a "spiritual/clerical business" substaniating their own personal faith, then I draw a line.

 

There is much thought and written about all this, much more sensible that a post here.

 

"What you say is very harsh."

Actually I find that what they say is harsh in that they assume that my [and others] ways are harsh/wrong and sinful and their assumptions are just simply pompous to think that another person's ways are wrong and your's are right.

Besides their insulting assumptions, I find that their simple invasion of my privacy an intrusion.

 

I have read history about the crusades, invasion of Hawaii, the Americas, the Philippines and all in the name of spreading the word of 'god', but in reality, they stole their land, gold, and their lives and souls.  Sorry, but I don't think that is what MY 'god' intended.

Edited August 15, 2014 by jaideeguy

[northernjohn]

A lot of talk about missionaries.

I wonder how many there really are here. How many are work regular jobs for a living and are member's of a church.

 

When I hear the word missionary I don't think of the guy working a regular 9 to 5 job or 48 hour week. I think of some one who is supported by a church and does nothing but try to sell his interpretation of the word to the people who have another interpretation than his.

 

I have read many claims about I have friends or I talk with them or there are a lot of them. all referring to a certain church. But being a member of a church does not make you a missionary.

How many missionaries are there really?

Judjing from the posts here not that many.

[harrry]

A lot of talk about missionaries.

I wonder how many there really are here. How many are work regular jobs for a living and are member's of a church.

 

When I hear the word missionary I don't think of the guy working a regular 9 to 5 job or 48 hour week. I think of some one who is supported by a church and does nothing but try to sell his interpretation of the word to the people who have another interpretation than his.

 

I have read many claims about I have friends or I talk with them or there are a lot of them. all referring to a certain church. But being a member of a church does not make you a missionary.

How many missionaries are there really?

Judjing from the posts here not that many.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/December/Chiang-Mai-a-Gateway-for-Modern-Missions/

Personally I think this is an underestimate.

[elektrified]

 

A lot of talk about missionaries.

I wonder how many there really are here. How many are work regular jobs for a living and are member's of a church.

 

When I hear the word missionary I don't think of the guy working a regular 9 to 5 job or 48 hour week. I think of some one who is supported by a church and does nothing but try to sell his interpretation of the word to the people who have another interpretation than his.

 

I have read many claims about I have friends or I talk with them or there are a lot of them. all referring to a certain church. But being a member of a church does not make you a missionary.

How many missionaries are there really?

Judjing from the posts here not that many.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/December/Chiang-Mai-a-Gateway-for-Modern-Missions/

Personally I think this is an underestimate.

 

I would say far more than 2,000.

[jaideeguy]

I would guess more than 2,000 too.............just go shopping at HangDong Makro or the Big C next on any given day and most of the falangs look like missionaries ......................meaning clean cut, prim and proper with plenty of kids that look like they popped out of the same mold and funnily enough their shopping carts are mostly full of expensive imported food.  God pays good!!

[harrry]

I would guess more than 2,000 too.............just go shopping at HangDong Makro or the Big C next on any given day and most of the falangs look like missionaries ......................meaning clean cut, prim and proper with plenty of kids that look like they popped out of the same mold and funnily enough their shopping carts are mostly full of expensive imported food.  God pays good!!

I thought they preferred Rimping.

[elektrified]

I would guess more than 2,000 too.............just go shopping at HangDong Makro or the Big C next on any given day and most of the falangs look like missionaries ......................meaning clean cut, prim and proper with plenty of kids that look like they popped out of the same mold and funnily enough their shopping carts are mostly full of expensive imported food.  God pays good!!

 

Not only in Hang Dong, but go anywhere...out in the most remote villages in Mae Taeng, Chang Dao, Phayao, Phrae, Mae Hong Son, out in the sticks of Lampang.... you name it. There are missionary families with their blonde hair, blue eyed kids and their SUV's quite literally everywhere in the North of Thailand. Some of them are speaking Thai as well as if they were born here.

 

The figure of 2000 has to be years out of date.
 

[northernjohn]

 

A lot of talk about missionaries.

I wonder how many there really are here. How many are work regular jobs for a living and are member's of a church.

 

When I hear the word missionary I don't think of the guy working a regular 9 to 5 job or 48 hour week. I think of some one who is supported by a church and does nothing but try to sell his interpretation of the word to the people who have another interpretation than his.

 

I have read many claims about I have friends or I talk with them or there are a lot of them. all referring to a certain church. But being a member of a church does not make you a missionary.

How many missionaries are there really?

Judjing from the posts here not that many.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/December/Chiang-Mai-a-Gateway-for-Modern-Missions/

Personally I think this is an underestimate.

 

 

It could well be as it says in the article it says as lot of them are just headquarters in other word staff to support missionaries in other areas. Makes me wonder if some of them are not the same as some of the NGO's. More supporting them selves than giving to the communities.

[onthedarkside]

Way way off topic removed - let's stay on the Missionaries topic, thank you.

[Jdiddy]

I would guess more than 2,000 too.............just go shopping at HangDong Makro or the Big C next on any given day and most of the falangs look like missionaries ......................meaning clean cut, prim and proper with plenty of kids that look like they popped out of the same mold and funnily enough their shopping carts are mostly full of expensive imported food.  God pays good!!

 

 

Yep, the little magazines the JW's hand out, Awake! and Watchtower i think they are called, if you look at how the people are dressed in the pictures (the real ones not the drawn biblical ones) it is exactly as you describe, they are just following suit

 

They think they have the key to everything, but they are just imprisoned in ideology and a cult like organisation where they hold themselves, other members and their leaders on a moral and ethics high ground, kinda like veganism

[Ulysses G.]

kinda like veganism

THAT bad? 

[Dante99]

Hello "jaideeguy,"

 

What you say is very harsh.  

 

The meaning of what you said is very clear.  Unfortunately, it could sound as demeaning as the missionaries' mission, as you interpret it.

 

Think about what you have written. What makes you think that you (or the missionaries) are so damn much smarter than "primitive" others about the matters of faith (a belief system) that, for whatever reason, might be (or was) failing them in the face of their reality.  The missionaries gave them an alternative message, which, in some cases, has been comforting and convincing regardless of the religion.  And some of the original religious practices interpreted into original social practices were (in some cases, still are) grusome in terms of modern rational practice.

 

So, in addition to whatever spiritual comfort missionaries have offered for life's unanswered questions for people looking for such comfort (and we all do), they often have at least brought increased medical and educational benefits to be able to exist in a modernizing world.

 

I personally draw a line if a missionary once said (as some did in the old days) that this asprin is my god's gift so believe in my faith which makes you physically feel better.  That is ridiculous, and it is disingenuous, to say the least!  But I do not think that "modern" misionaries, as we know them say this sort of thing.

 

Time moves on.  Regardless of moving on, however, there is still no "ultimate answer" to our questions.  We will always fear what we do not know and seek comfortabout the unknown and th inexplicable.  If  missionaries approach such need in an unselfish way, then I have no concern.  If their faith becomes a "spiritual/clerical business" substaniating their own personal faith, then I draw a line.

 

There is much thought and written about all this, much more sensible that a post here

 

drivil, sober up, get a functioning brain.

[BillyBobThai]

In the first few weeks of living here in the Hang Dong area, the wife had met an asian couple who spoke fluent Thai.  They had a school that tutored kids in math and english after school for no charge.  I explained to the wife that nobody did something for free.  It turned out that they were Korean Christian missionaries and the school was being funded by their church in Korea.  Out of an hour and a half of instruction each day, 15 to 20 minutes each day was spent in religious indoctrination.  The wife was pissed when she found this out and she pulled her son out.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[anonymouse]

There's a ton of them in my small Moo Baan, they seem to come and go and I think a number of the houses here are owned by their respective churches..I have no idea which particular subcult of the Church they belong to. Personally I am completely indifferent to them, they don't cause any problems or bother the Thai's or Westerners on this Housing Estate. What I can say is talking to one of them a couple of years back that they do get handsomely rewarded for their work...and not just by the guy upstairs I also noticed the hot one at the swimming pool  in the bikini with the tattoos on her legs.... religious convert or on the missionary gravy train?

 

While I have no time for organized religion or religious indoctrination there are good sides to their bribery. My wife who was dirt poor when she was young was given the chance to attend Sunday School held by a Christian Organization that paid for her school uniforms and books if she attended they also taught her the rudiments of the English Language which she improved on over the years. BTW they didn't convert her!

[Saan]

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the bible and we had the land. They said 'let us pray'. We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the bible and they had the land."  - Desmond Tutu

[Genericnic]

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the bible and we had the land. They said 'let us pray'. We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the bible and they had the land."  - Desmond Tutu

As the Trojans learned ages ago "beware of Greeks bearing gifts" or to paraphrase, "of Christians bearing anything."

 

David