ATM 'power overload' may have killed toddler

[Artisi]

Just a thought....

Turning on the lights is something the petrol station must do every night. Could it be that in normal operation the lights were drawing more current than the circuits were rated for, causing the circuit breakers to trip whenever they turned the lights on? Could it be that their solution to this problem was to bypass the circuit breakers?

By passing the circuit breakers would not cause the ATM case to become active.

[Artisi]

To avoid any future potential accidents, if ATMs here can be risky, from now on I will get my mother-in-law to touch all ATMs before I do.

Just give her you ATM card - won't be long before there is no need for you to ever go near the ATM again.

[smedly]

from the description of the injury that this poor little girl had it sounds like she was standing barefoot on the ground and touched the frame of the machine with some part of her head but I have to say none of it sounds very plausible - 220vac will generally throw a person away from what they touch, I have had quite a few shocks in my time from various situations - a mains AC shock at 50Hz feels like someone hitting you with a sledgehammer 50 times a second, if it's through a hand it won't stay there very long you will pull away real fast

Don't know what this could do to the neck and spinal cord of an infant, I suppose damage is possible but I honestly can't see it being fatal - but who knows

Most fatalities with electricity are were the person cannot disconnect from the source or were there are much higher voltages and current involved

[Jumper]

Just a thought....

Turning on the lights is something the petrol station must do every night. Could it be that in normal operation the lights were drawing more current than the circuits were rated for, causing the circuit breakers to trip whenever they turned the lights on? Could it be that their solution to this problem was to bypass the circuit breakers?

By passing the circuit breakers would not cause the ATM case to become active.

Correct, it would not cause the case to become active. It would, however bypass protection against a fault. I think it's pretty obvious there was a short someplace. That can happen. Where was the protection against a fault?

[Artisi]

from the description of the injury that this poor little girl had it sounds like she was standing barefoot on the ground and touched the frame of the machine with some part of her head but I have to say none of it sounds very plausible - 220vac will generally throw a person away from what they touch, I have had quite a few shocks in my time from various situations - a mains AC shock at 50Hz feels like someone hitting you with a sledgehammer 50 times a second, if it's through a hand it won't stay there very long you will pull away real fast

Don't know what this could do to the neck and spinal cord of an infant, I suppose damage is possible but I honestly can't see it being fatal - but who knows

Most fatalities with electricity are were the person cannot disconnect from the source or were there are much higher voltages and current involved

".... if it's through a hand it won't stay there very long you will pull away real fast " that of course is provided you aren't holding onto the source when the your final statement come into play " .......the person cannot disconnect from the source........." due to the fact that the muscles of the hand will contract and you cannot release the involuntary grip.

I like your description, " feels like someone hitting you with a sledgehammer 50 times a second" that's spot-on.

[trainman34014]

RIP the poor little tot.

What caused this Manslaughter was....

1. Poor installation of machine.

2. Negligence on the part of Bank staff who had been advised by customers that the machine was causing electric shocks....and did nothing.

Moral bankruptcy by an uncaring society who believe they are all 'Good Buddhists'. May Karma take its revenge.

[Zeegator]

I thought other people had reported for days they were getting

electrical shocks from the ATM?, so that refutes the claim of a

power surge ,JUST as the toddler touches the machine,but whats

the life of a little girl,when the reputation of a financial institute is

at steak,

regards Worgeordie

Yes, should prosecute the bank including its biggest shareholders. Maybe then they will pay attention to the utilities laid throughout their own country? They can start with 'grounding' education. There are still many modern structures not properly grounded, let alone homes.

"...should prosecute the bank including its biggest shareholders."

Now that's a novel idea that would go down well with any stockmarket investors, if you own shares in any public company you become liable for everything it does?

[DrLom]

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

[Bung]

It always amazes me here how they can come up with an excuse for anything no matter how far fetched it is.

No one takes any responsibility and a reason for what happens is concocted so nobody loses face or is inconvenienced. Everyone is off the hook and clear of any fault. Just the family is left suffering for a little girl they will never see again. Anyway, I am sure 58k baht and the presence of bank officials is going to make up for it.....

Actually surprised the haven't used the bad spirit angle yet, that one always works and clears everyone involved of responsibility.

[Artisi]

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

Correct anything over maybe 30 mA at sufficient voltage to induce flow can be considered lethal.

[Thanet]

I thought other people had reported for days they were getting

electrical shocks from the ATM?, so that refutes the claim of a

power surge ,JUST as the toddler touches the machine,but whats

the life of a little girl,when the reputation of a financial institute is

at steak,

regards Worgeordie

Yes, should prosecute the bank including its biggest shareholders. Maybe then they will pay attention to the utilities laid throughout their own country? They can start with 'grounding' education. There are still many modern structures not properly grounded, let alone homes.

Always amazes me too that electrical appliances aren't earthed here.

[monk213]

I don't know what a power overload is maybe something lost in translation but it is very obvious that someone made a massive error either in the installation of this machine or the maintenance, the little girl was probably barefoot and got a shock from the full mains power feeding this machine - everyone else was just lucky they were wearing something on their feet

The metalwork was not earthed as it should have been otherwise it would have blown the earth leakage protection as soon as there was an issue

someone with a brain needs to look into this

Well that ain't gonna happen here! They will repair the short, not add any grounding and back in service the next day, Mai pen rai.

mai bpen rai everyone walking around saying it as 'pen' as in the tool you write with, not so.

RIP to the very unlucky toddler, things won't change any time soon though unfortunately

Edited August 17, 2014 by monk213

[MaxYakov]

Of course we will never see the actual report.

So the test results on the earthing integrity of the machine and its installation, the operation (or presence) of the RCD or any other safety related checks will never be known.

We just get to see 'power overload' which is plain rubbish, or really, really poor translation.

Plus, "volts" is not a measure of "power" as stated by the article.

[jacko45k]

I don't know what a power overload is maybe something lost in translation but it is very obvious that someone made a massive error either in the installation of this machine or the maintenance, the little girl was probably barefoot and got a shock from the full mains power feeding this machine - everyone else was just lucky they were wearing something on their feet

The metalwork was not earthed as it should have been otherwise it would have blown the earth leakage protection as soon as there was an issue

someone with a brain needs to look into this

Yeah my education in Electrical Engineering was obviously lacking too!

If the metal body of the ATM was at 191v of power ( there's an oxymoron), relative to ground, the metal body was certainly not grounded very well.

Sad for the little girl........

[monk213]

Of course we will never see the actual report.

So the test results on the earthing integrity of the machine and its installation, the operation (or presence) of the RCD or any other safety related checks will never be known.

We just get to see 'power overload' which is plain rubbish, or really, really poor translation.

Plus, "volts" is not a measure of "power" as stated by the article.

haha I cannot believe I skimmed over this error, watt were they thinking

[balo]

So not only ATM scamming we have to worry about , now we also can get electrocuted.

Will remember to bring my rubber gloves next time I want cash .

[monk213]

So not only ATM scamming we have to worry about , now we also can get electrocuted.

Will remember to bring my rubber gloves next time I want cash .

That won't look suspicious to people and the police, someone going to a cash point machine with rubber gloves on

[Emster23]

I always wear rubber soled footwear in Thailand, including in my condo. I do my best not to touch to different metal surfaces at same time. I figure that might cut down the odds. I would prefer to be run down by idiot on motorbike driving wrong direction on sidewalk.....

[Artisi]

I thought other people had reported for days they were getting

electrical shocks from the ATM?, so that refutes the claim of a

power surge ,JUST as the toddler touches the machine,but whats

the life of a little girl,when the reputation of a financial institute is

at steak,

regards Worgeordie

Yes, should prosecute the bank including its biggest shareholders. Maybe then they will pay attention to the utilities laid throughout their own country? They can start with 'grounding' education. There are still many modern structures not properly grounded, let alone homes.

Always amazes me too that electrical appliances aren't earthed here.

Not all appliances need earthing, but the ones that do usually aren't - but not in my house.

[Briandajew]

Of course we will never see the actual report.

So the test results on the earthing integrity of the machine and its installation, the operation (or presence) of the RCD or any other safety related checks will never be known.

We just get to see 'power overload' which is plain rubbish, or really, really poor translation.

Indeed, their excuse is toilet!

What utter rubbish, since when did Volts=Power? from what they are saying it looks like a faulty neutral or grounding, 191V sounds to me like the power was being "sucked" out by other connections, it has nothing to do with why the machine became live.

We used to be on a long long link to our village supply, my 220/240 V supply would regularly get dragged down to 175V due to me being the last on the cable, nothing was compromised regarding safety, we had earthing and RCD/ELB Etc. if anything, 175V is less harmful than 240V.

It just highlights the ignorance of the general public here as to how dangerous electricity is.

The installation of the ATM has to be the source of the problem, terrible tragedy.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Briandajew

[Briandajew]

It always amazes me here how they can come up with an excuse for anything no matter how far fetched it is.

No one takes any responsibility and a reason for what happens is concocted so nobody loses face or is inconvenienced. Everyone is off the hook and clear of any fault. Just the family is left suffering for a little girl they will never see again. Anyway, I am sure 58k baht and the presence of bank officials is going to make up for it.....

Actually surprised the haven't used the bad spirit angle yet, that one always works and clears everyone involved of responsibility.

Yes, sadly quite true, especially up here where I live, they will be blaming the little girl for being evil in a past life! Sad, sad situation.

[razer]

This is where you will see a culture's value for life.

[Rorri]

rametindallas, on 17 Aug 2014 - 10:35, said:

In the US, a 'power overload' automatically trips the circuit breaker and cuts off all power to the 'overloaded' circuit. I don't believe this story for one second. It may be a translation error but I doubt it. Most people would believe whatever they are told when the answer is 'technical'. The bank doesn't dare say the truth or the electrical contractor will sue them for 'defamation'. In Thailand, one can be telling the truth and still be guilty of defaming another. Thainess. 'Farang not understand' (they got that right).

So true... in fact an "overload" should, at worse, blown a power supply circuit, not make live the chassis. Dangerous wiring, with no effective earthing, is what caused this accident. NB, I use the word "accident" lightly, it should be manslaughter.

[Mudcrab]

Of course we will never see the actual report.

So the test results on the earthing integrity of the machine and its installation, the operation (or presence) of the RCD or any other safety related checks will never be known.

We just get to see 'power overload' which is plain rubbish, or really, really poor translation.

It certainly would be good to see the report.

I recently investigated an incident where an electrician was sat on his arse from a shock.

I still don't know with 100% certainty what caused it.

The sparky was working in an office under a desk. On the desk was a PC connected to an RCD protected circuit. The sparky thinks the shock occurred when he may have touched the back of the PC while working.The RCD did not trip but was tested and found to be working correctly.

The PC internal earth was good.

The only unusual thing I found was that the lady who used the PC said that she sometimes had to unplug the keyboard USB connection and plug it back in again to be able to type.

The keyboard USB cable was damaged and a core exposed.

Obviously this cable would normally have a very low voltage.

However what are the chances that the bare cable was from time to time subjected to very high frequencies, even at a low voltage from a dodgy switch mode power supply intermittent fault, that may have caused the shock?

Pretty extreme I agree but based on the other evidence it still has me wondering. It's likely the ATM would have a similar power supply internally as well.

Back to the ATM.

Sounds like it was a time bomb waiting to go off.

Pure speculation - maybe the people replenishing the cash supply jammed a cable when they closed the machine back up energising the machine frame, combined with a dodgy earth/earth leakage protection may be the root cause.

The power overload claim is a bit hard to swallow. One would think that a service station turning on its lights would cause a minuscule momentary power dip not a voltage surge. It would have to have an awful lot of lights to even affect the normal supply. I guess in an extreme case the voltage could dip but the on load tap changer on the power transformer would/should compensate for this.

[Rorri]

DrLom, on 17 Aug 2014 - 14:09, said:

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

You're being pedantic on a serious story, but to put you straight, this story is about a mains powered, 220Vac, ATM. Volts divided by body resistance gives you current (amperage), yes it is amps that kill, but without the volts you get no amps, so they go hand in hand, Basic ohm's law.

[smedly]

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

voltage is the force behind the current and the current flow is dependent on resistance and voltage

still haven't mentioned Amps and then there is the power measurement - watt

[Rorri]

Artisi, on 17 Aug 2014 - 15:47, said:

DrLom, on 17 Aug 2014 - 14:09, said:

And here was silly old me thinking in most cases it is amperage and not voltage that caused such injury and death.

No mention of amps at all in this forum, only voltages... surprises me that!

Correct anything over maybe 30 mA at sufficient voltage to induce flow can be considered lethal.

It's not easy to put a figure on it as it depends on how long to flow is sustained.

[shaurene]

Electrical engineer did the investigation of the machine but no mention on correct wiring like earths, what a joke "Electrical Engineer" Ha Ha. One thing puzzles me they say 194.4 volts surely they are 220~240V. Anyway one simple thing that should be fitted is a power surge protector. All the multi socket block I brought from New Zealand are all power surge protected.

[Thaddeus]

from the description of the injury that this poor little girl had it sounds like she was standing barefoot on the ground and touched the frame of the machine with some part of her head but I have to say none of it sounds very plausible - 220vac will generally throw a person away from what they touch, I have had quite a few shocks in my time from various situations - a mains AC shock at 50Hz feels like someone hitting you with a sledgehammer 50 times a second, if it's through a hand it won't stay there very long you will pull away real fast

Don't know what this could do to the neck and spinal cord of an infant, I suppose damage is possible but I honestly can't see it being fatal - but who knows

Most fatalities with electricity are were the person cannot disconnect from the source or were there are much higher voltages and current involved

".... if it's through a hand it won't stay there very long you will pull away real fast " that of course is provided you aren't holding onto the source when the your final statement come into play " .......the person cannot disconnect from the source........." due to the fact that the muscles of the hand will contract and you cannot release the involuntary grip.

I like your description, " feels like someone hitting you with a sledgehammer 50 times a second" that's spot-on.

That's why we were always told (if there was no other option) anything suspicious should be touched with the back of the hand and you will instantly recoil.

I have (through my own stupidity) not always followed that and have been on the receiving end of a couple of mains power shocks in the UK, and that description is as close as you can get to how it feels.

RIP little one, I hope some others have this incompetence on their conscience for a very long time.

[Benmart]

Seriously, maybe Junta could address the entire Thai electrical wiring is dangerous thing. First off, I am very saddened to hear about the death of a toddler. RIP. Unfortunately anyone who has consistently read Thai news knows that this is not the first time people are getting electrocuted. It's almost shockingly (no pun intended) a regular occurrence.

Agree with you Sir. Some first hand examples, in both residential and commercial electrical installations, left me cringing.

Electricans, from my experience, are in name only. Little or no training, no professional licensing and no idea of electrical safety seems to be the norm. Code enforcement and inspection prior to occupancy seems lacking or nonexistent.

All I can say is, buyer, user or visitor, beware!