Learned some Thai History today - WW2

[thailiketoo]

Given the choice between occupation and becoming an ally, why wouldnt they choose ally?

They were a defacto ally before occupation was an issue. Franco/Thai war 1940. Japanese fought on the Thai side during the war.

all the more reason to ally to japan.

Yes, one only has to look at the equipment given to Thailand from Japan and the USA. At first they got aircraft from the USA but later America refused any more shipments and they changed to Japan.

[Boycie]

The streets of Bangkok 74 years ago. Not sure if they're yellows or reds thou

Believe it's anti-French demonstrations?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Boycie

[metisdead]

Off topic deflection posts and replies have been removed.

[loppylugs1]

This maybe why Laos are now courting western countries,so they can give Thailand another major ass whipping.

Love to see Victory monument demolished,it sorta gives the impression that major battles have been fought and won by the Thais

Do you think France won the war that the Victory monument celebrates? Did France give territories to Thailand or did Thailand give territories to France as a result of the Franco Thai war? It took the Thai army 10 days to take Laos if my memory is correct. I'm sure you have major Laotian ass whipping battles to tell us about so go ahead........

It all depends on which book is being read. Read a fair bit regarding the Thai,French sea battle,two different accounts obviously, and yes a read of Wiki spells some of it out.

Who gave what to which,and how much after WW2?.Do not think any of these parties have still managed to sort it out

[thailiketoo]

This maybe why Laos are now courting western countries,so they can give Thailand another major ass whipping.

Love to see Victory monument demolished,it sorta gives the impression that major battles have been fought and won by the Thais

Do you think France won the war that the Victory monument celebrates? Did France give territories to Thailand or did Thailand give territories to France as a result of the Franco Thai war? It took the Thai army 10 days to take Laos if my memory is correct. I'm sure you have major Laotian ass whipping battles to tell us about so go ahead........

It all depends on which book is being read. Read a fair bit regarding the Thai,French sea battle,two different accounts obviously, and yes a read of Wiki spells some of it out.

Who gave what to which,and how much after WW2?.Do not think any of these parties have still managed to sort it out

French won the sea battle. Thailand won the land battle. Japanese helped the Thais negotiate and Thais won the territory and the war. ( Winner gets land). Thais lost WWII and had to give the land back. Now what about Laos and whipping?????

[Ricardo]

If Britain had fallen, Germany would have concentrated on Russia, then America was next. you are partly correct the Atlantic oceans where a form of defense for America while British War ships in the pacific and Atlantic sunk and harassed German War ships. from attacking America.

How many troops invaded Britain? Do you have any idea about the conduct of the war? Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there. Oh BTW America did invent a war ending bomb that didn't require any troops at all.

Germany did not have the ability to invade Britain and Russia at the same time. Ships don't attack America it is 3,366 km wide. What are you talking about? All it takes is one little torpedo to sink the biggest British battleship. WWII was a carrier war. Germany did not have the ability to mount an amphibious invasion of America, no way no how. America could have stood alone thanks to Atomic technology. Britain and Russia both needed American equipment to wage a successful war. Sorry, but that's a fact jack.

"Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there"

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong there.

Read-up on the British Expeditionary Force & Dunkirk, they were on the Continent, not in the U.K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Perhaps also look at the Channel Islands, where Germany invaded & occupied British soil ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

I would also doubt that the London Blitz could be described as Germany staying on its own side of the Channel.

[hotsoup]

In assessing the decisions made by Thailand before and during WW2 3 things should not be ignored. The extremely important issue of territory has been raised above by Thailiketoo.

In 1939 Thailand was still a somewhat nebulous concept; the borders of 'Thailand' had been changing for hundreds of years. Thailand. During the 18th and 19th centuries many parts of what might have been considered as Siam were 'lost' to Britain France and even Burma. Many parts of what are now Thailand had been hardly within the writ of the king.

Thailand was shell shocked by the French incursion in 1893 and though they had made a treaty in the previous year with Britain, the whole issue had highlighted no reason to trust the west. That together with the bombing of BKK by Britain hardly inspired confidence in the west.

They were thus rightly concerned that any alliance with the west might result in even further loss of territory, in spite of some of the earlier French reparations.

An alliance with Japan thus provide the best of some unattractive options

Thailand was extremely fortunate that, much in the way Britain had used Siam as buffer between Burma and France, the USA decided, on I agree somewhat paranoid grounds, to use Thailand as a counter to communism in East Asia.

[thailiketoo]

If Britain had fallen, Germany would have concentrated on Russia, then America was next. you are partly correct the Atlantic oceans where a form of defense for America while British War ships in the pacific and Atlantic sunk and harassed German War ships. from attacking America.

How many troops invaded Britain? Do you have any idea about the conduct of the war? Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there. Oh BTW America did invent a war ending bomb that didn't require any troops at all.

Germany did not have the ability to invade Britain and Russia at the same time. Ships don't attack America it is 3,366 km wide. What are you talking about? All it takes is one little torpedo to sink the biggest British battleship. WWII was a carrier war. Germany did not have the ability to mount an amphibious invasion of America, no way no how. America could have stood alone thanks to Atomic technology. Britain and Russia both needed American equipment to wage a successful war. Sorry, but that's a fact jack.

"Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there"

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong there.

Read-up on the British Expeditionary Force & Dunkirk, they were on the Continent, not in the U.K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Perhaps also look at the Channel Islands, where Germany invaded & occupied British soil ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

I would also doubt that the London Blitz could be described as Germany staying on its own side of the Channel.

You know you are absolutist correct. I was referring to another poster who maintained that Britain was America's first line of defense which I think was never the case. The Atlantic ocean being a far greater deterrent. I think back then and even now America is the only nation capable of launching a large scale amphibious invasion.

[Ricardo]

In assessing the decisions made by Thailand before and during WW2 3 things should not be ignored. The extremely important issue of territory has been raised above by Thailiketoo.

In 1939 Thailand was still a somewhat nebulous concept; the borders of 'Thailand' had been changing for hundreds of years. Thailand. During the 18th and 19th centuries many parts of what might have been considered as Siam were 'lost' to Britain France and even Burma. Many parts of what are now Thailand had been hardly within the writ of the king.

Thailand was shell shocked by the French incursion in 1893 and though they had made a treaty in the previous year with Britain, the whole issue had highlighted no reason to trust the west. That together with the bombing of BKK by Britain hardly inspired confidence in the west.

They were thus rightly concerned that any alliance with the west might result in even further loss of territory, in spite of some of the earlier French reparations.

An alliance with Japan thus provide the best of some unattractive options

Thailand was extremely fortunate that, much in the way Britain had used Siam as buffer between Burma and France, the USA decided, on I agree somewhat paranoid grounds, to use Thailand as a counter to communism in East Asia.

"the bombing of BKK by Britain hardly inspired confidence in the west."

The bombing of Bangkok, also other places in Thailand, by British & American aircraft, surely took place well after Thailand had allied itself with Japan ?

So cannot have been a factor in their decision.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Ricardo

[simple1]

If Britain had fallen, Germany would have concentrated on Russia, then America was next. you are partly correct the Atlantic oceans where a form of defense for America while British War ships in the pacific and Atlantic sunk and harassed German War ships. from attacking America.

How many troops invaded Britain? Do you have any idea about the conduct of the war? Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there. Oh BTW America did invent a war ending bomb that didn't require any troops at all.

Germany did not have the ability to invade Britain and Russia at the same time. Ships don't attack America it is 3,366 km wide. What are you talking about? All it takes is one little torpedo to sink the biggest British battleship. WWII was a carrier war. Germany did not have the ability to mount an amphibious invasion of America, no way no how. America could have stood alone thanks to Atomic technology. Britain and Russia both needed American equipment to wage a successful war. Sorry, but that's a fact jack.

"Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there"

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong there.

Read-up on the British Expeditionary Force & Dunkirk, they were on the Continent, not in the U.K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Perhaps also look at the Channel Islands, where Germany invaded & occupied British soil ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

I would also doubt that the London Blitz could be described as Germany staying on its own side of the Channel.

You know you are absolutist correct. I was referring to another poster who maintained that Britain was America's first line of defense which I think was never the case. The Atlantic ocean being a far greater deterrent. I think back then and even now America is the only nation capable of launching a large scale amphibious invasion.

WW11 European theatre.

Operation Torch

105 USN 196 RN

Operation Husky

435 USN 930 RN

Operation Avalanche

125 USN 128 British and allied

Operation Single

154 USN 215 British & Allied

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsAmphibious.htm

Normandy landing

Overall planning & naval command by Britain admiral, the majority of naval vessels supplied by UK & Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy_landings#Naval_activity

Edited August 24, 2014 by simple1

[thailiketoo]

"Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there"

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong there.

Read-up on the British Expeditionary Force & Dunkirk, they were on the Continent, not in the U.K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Perhaps also look at the Channel Islands, where Germany invaded & occupied British soil ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

I would also doubt that the London Blitz could be described as Germany staying on its own side of the Channel.

You know you are absolutist correct. I was referring to another poster who maintained that Britain was America's first line of defense which I think was never the case. The Atlantic ocean being a far greater deterrent. I think back then and even now America is the only nation capable of launching a large scale amphibious invasion.

WW11 European theatre.

Operation Torch

105 USN 196 RN

Operation Husky

435 USN 930 RN

Operation Avalanche

125 USN 128 British and allied

Operation Single

154 USN 215 British & Allied

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsAmphibious.htm

Normandy landing

Overall planning & naval command by Britain admiral, the majority of naval vessels supplied by UK & Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy_landings#Naval_activity

D Day Normandy commander, Dwight D. Eisenhour.

Operation Shingle, Commander American Major General John P. Lucas

Operation Avalanche Commander American Mark Clark.

Operation Husky commander, American Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

Operation Torch Commander American Gen Dwight D Eisenhower.

[Thongkorn]

Churchill was a man among men, he saw the second world war coming long before many others. When Britain had cracked the enigma code. ( Not as the American film ), He new Coventry was goiung to be bombed but had to keep silent because the code breakers where giving information to allied Submarines , Planes and shipping so they could sink the German U boats. So all you see is not what you think. also he wanted to carry on and fight Russia, but the Yanks did not have the will to do so, So really Russia today is of Americas making.

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence. Rejewski "reverse-engineered" the device, using theoretical mathematics and material supplied by French military intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

You wrote, "So all you see is not what you think. also he wanted to carry on and fight Russia, but the Yanks did not have the will to do so, So really Russia today is of Americas making." Absolute 100% BS.

Who knows I and every other historian may be wrong. Stalin is pretty much given credit for the Russia we see today.

again you think you know it all, It was a trawler who first got the deciphering code book from a sinking Submarine which had been brought to the service, It was scuteld by the German commanded, a sailor was orders to swim to it before it sunk and get any paperwork , among the paperwork was a book made, of blotting paper, so if it got wet the writing would be illegible, the sailor just put every thing in a sack and never gave it a thought, it was only when the sack was handed over to Navy intelligence that they had realized what the had, Blechly Park did the rest. But You know every thing and have an attitude to any one else who is not American ,

[thailiketoo]

Churchill was a man among men, he saw the second world war coming long before many others. When Britain had cracked the enigma code. ( Not as the American film ), He new Coventry was goiung to be bombed but had to keep silent because the code breakers where giving information to allied Submarines , Planes and shipping so they could sink the German U boats. So all you see is not what you think. also he wanted to carry on and fight Russia, but the Yanks did not have the will to do so, So really Russia today is of Americas making.

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence. Rejewski "reverse-engineered" the device, using theoretical mathematics and material supplied by French military intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

You wrote, "So all you see is not what you think. also he wanted to carry on and fight Russia, but the Yanks did not have the will to do so, So really Russia today is of Americas making." Absolute 100% BS.

Who knows I and every other historian may be wrong. Stalin is pretty much given credit for the Russia we see today.

again you think you know it all, It was a trawler who first got the deciphering code book from a sinking Submarine which had been brought to the service, It was scuteld by the German commanded, a sailor was orders to swim to it before it sunk and get any paperwork , among the paperwork was a book made, of blotting paper, so if it got wet the writing would be illegible, the sailor just put every thing in a sack and never gave it a thought, it was only when the sack was handed over to Navy intelligence that they had realized what the had, Blechly Park did the rest. But You know every thing and have an attitude to any one else who is not American ,

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

Edited August 24, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wilcopops]

Well, OP, sorry you are so ill-informed. Thailand's involvement in WWII has been well known; since WWII.

However, your use of wikipedia or any other encyclopedia for important research consideration is suspect.

Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia compiled by a distributed network of volunteers, has often come under attack by academics as being shoddy and full of inaccuracies. Even Wikipedia’s founder, Jimmy Wales, says he wants to get the message out to college students that they shouldn’t use it for class projects or serious research.

Speaking at a conference at the University of Pennsylvania on Friday called “The Hyperlinked Society,” Mr. Wales said that he gets about 10 e-mail messages a week from students who complain that Wikipedia has gotten them into academic hot water. “They say, ‘Please help me. I got an F on my paper because I cited Wikipedia’” and the information turned out to be wrong, he says. But he said he has no sympathy for their plight, noting that he thinks to himself: “For God sake, you’re in college; don’t cite the encyclopedia.”

Mr. Wales said that leaders of Wikipedia have considered putting together a fact sheet that professors could give out to students explaining what Wikipedia is and that it is not always a definitive source. “It is pretty good, but you have to be careful with it,” he said. “It’s good enough knowledge, depending on what your purpose is.”

In an interview, Mr. Wales said that Wikipedia is ideal for many uses. If you are reading a novel that mentions the Battle of the Bulge, for instance, you could use Wikipedia to get a quick basic overview of the historical event to understand the context. But students writing a paper about the battle should hit the history books.

Posted on Monday June 12, 2006 | Permalink |

Rather than attack the messenger - Wikipedia" why not give4 some substance to your argument and point where in this particular case the inaccuracies lie?

[wilcopops]

Churchill was a man among men, he saw the second world war coming long before many others. When Britain had cracked the enigma code. ( Not as the American film ), He new Coventry was goiung to be bombed but had to keep silent because the code breakers where giving information to allied Submarines , Planes and shipping so they could sink the German U boats. So all you see is not what you think. also he wanted to carry on and fight Russia, but the Yanks did not have the will to do so, So really Russia today is of Americas making.

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence. Rejewski "reverse-engineered" the device, using theoretical mathematics and material supplied by French military intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

You wrote, "So all you see is not what you think. also he wanted to carry on and fight Russia, but the Yanks did not have the will to do so, So really Russia today is of Americas making." Absolute 100% BS.

Who knows I and every other historian may be wrong. Stalin is pretty much given credit for the Russia we see today.

again you think you know it all, It was a trawler who first got the deciphering code book from a sinking Submarine which had been brought to the service, It was scuteld by the German commanded, a sailor was orders to swim to it before it sunk and get any paperwork , among the paperwork was a book made, of blotting paper, so if it got wet the writing would be illegible, the sailor just put every thing in a sack and never gave it a thought, it was only when the sack was handed over to Navy intelligence that they had realized what the had, Blechly Park did the rest. But You know every thing and have an attitude to any one else who is not American ,

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence.

Totally true and a fine example of how, taken in isolation, facts can be either useless or very misleading. yiou really have to fit this into firstly code breaking and then how it fits into the whole story.

[thailiketoo]

again you think you know it all, It was a trawler who first got the deciphering code book from a sinking Submarine which had been brought to the service, It was scuteld by the German commanded, a sailor was orders to swim to it before it sunk and get any paperwork , among the paperwork was a book made, of blotting paper, so if it got wet the writing would be illegible, the sailor just put every thing in a sack and never gave it a thought, it was only when the sack was handed over to Navy intelligence that they had realized what the had, Blechly Park did the rest. But You know every thing and have an attitude to any one else who is not American ,

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence.

Totally true and a fine example of how, taken in isolation, facts can be either useless or very misleading. yiou really have to fit this into firstly code breaking and then how it fits into the whole story.

Why? The enigma is a long story. Many people played a part in the code breaking. To start with the Poles. Thongkorn is attacking me anyway. I never said anything about Americans cracking the enigma machine. He is just an anti American troll; contending things like, "So really Russia today is of Americas making." Nonsense.

[wilcopops]

again you think you know it all, It was a trawler who first got the deciphering code book from a sinking Submarine which had been brought to the service, It was scuteld by the German commanded, a sailor was orders to swim to it before it sunk and get any paperwork , among the paperwork was a book made, of blotting paper, so if it got wet the writing would be illegible, the sailor just put every thing in a sack and never gave it a thought, it was only when the sack was handed over to Navy intelligence that they had realized what the had, Blechly Park did the rest. But You know every thing and have an attitude to any one else who is not American ,

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence.

Totally true and a fine example of how, taken in isolation, facts can be either useless or very misleading. yiou really have to fit this into firstly code breaking and then how it fits into the whole story.

Why? The enigma is a long story. Many people played a part in the code breaking. To start with the Poles. Thongkorn is attacking me anyway. I never said anything about Americans cracking the enigma machine. He is just an anti American troll; contending things like, "So really Russia today is of Americas making." Nonsense.

Apparently the UK "bought" a machine in 1920.....the key point is the machine didn't stand still and was developed and modified....so now the rest of the story is coming out....however a chronology is nothing more than that.........how it affected the war and what use or why are what history is about, not the regurgitation of facts.

Edited August 24, 2014 by wilcopops

[smotherb]

Well, OP, sorry you are so ill-informed. Thailand's involvement in WWII has been well known; since WWII.

However, your use of wikipedia or any other encyclopedia for important research consideration is suspect.

Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia compiled by a distributed network of volunteers, has often come under attack by academics as being shoddy and full of inaccuracies. Even Wikipedia’s founder, Jimmy Wales, says he wants to get the message out to college students that they shouldn’t use it for class projects or serious research.

Speaking at a conference at the University of Pennsylvania on Friday called “The Hyperlinked Society,” Mr. Wales said that he gets about 10 e-mail messages a week from students who complain that Wikipedia has gotten them into academic hot water. “They say, ‘Please help me. I got an F on my paper because I cited Wikipedia’” and the information turned out to be wrong, he says. But he said he has no sympathy for their plight, noting that he thinks to himself: “For God sake, you’re in college; don’t cite the encyclopedia.”

Mr. Wales said that leaders of Wikipedia have considered putting together a fact sheet that professors could give out to students explaining what Wikipedia is and that it is not always a definitive source. “It is pretty good, but you have to be careful with it,” he said. “It’s good enough knowledge, depending on what your purpose is.”

In an interview, Mr. Wales said that Wikipedia is ideal for many uses. If you are reading a novel that mentions the Battle of the Bulge, for instance, you could use Wikipedia to get a quick basic overview of the historical event to understand the context. But students writing a paper about the battle should hit the history books.

Posted on Monday June 12, 2006 | Permalink |

Rather than attack the messenger - Wikipedia" why not give4 some substance to your argument and point where in this particular case the inaccuracies lie?

I do not see where Mr. Wales has suggested that in only particular cases should you avoid using Wikipedia for any important information seeking. And, you were the messenger, wikipedia wrote the message.

[harrry]

German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence.

Totally true and a fine example of how, taken in isolation, facts can be either useless or very misleading. yiou really have to fit this into firstly code breaking and then how it fits into the whole story.

Why? The enigma is a long story. Many people played a part in the code breaking. To start with the Poles. Thongkorn is attacking me anyway. I never said anything about Americans cracking the enigma machine. He is just an anti American troll; contending things like, "So really Russia today is of Americas making." Nonsense.

Apparently the UK "bought" a machine in 1920.....the key point is the machine didn't stand still and was developed and modified....so now the rest of the story is coming out....however a chronology is nothing more than that.........how it affected the war and what use or why are what history is about, not the regurgitation of facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski makes interesting reading.

[thailiketoo]

Why? The enigma is a long story. Many people played a part in the code breaking. To start with the Poles. Thongkorn is attacking me anyway. I never said anything about Americans cracking the enigma machine. He is just an anti American troll; contending things like, "So really Russia today is of Americas making." Nonsense.

Apparently the UK "bought" a machine in 1920.....the key point is the machine didn't stand still and was developed and modified....so now the rest of the story is coming out....however a chronology is nothing more than that.........how it affected the war and what use or why are what history is about, not the regurgitation of facts.

Polish Intelligence were initially unable to break the German Enigma traffic however driven by the imperative

of finding what the Germans were up to, they, uniquely among other nations at that time, decided to try

a mathematical approach. In 1932 a team of young mathematicians was set up. It included Jerzy Rozycki,

Henryk Zygalski and Marian Rejewski.

Rejewski was given a separate room and told to take a closer look at a pile of the military Enigma

encrypts. He was also supplied with an obsolete commercial Enigma machine which had been bought in

Germany. Using this, and a series of mathematical deductions, he was able to completely determine the

wiring of the rotors now being used in the military Enigma,

There are 400 million billion billion ways to connect the keyboard to the rst rotor. Then Rejewski wondered whether they had been so foolish as to connect A to A, B to B' and so on. And they had! By 1933 the Poles has a working Enigma replica.

I know that is regurgitating facts but I believe that is what happened. You said that the UK bought a machine in 1920 is that a fact? So did the Poles. Originally the machine was sold to banks.

Edited August 24, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Thongkorn]

There where two types of Enigma machines,The German Navy Enigma machine was totally different. from the Ones used by the German Military and Air force.

it was the fact that the Navy got complacent and did not change the spools on the machine, as should have been done every day, that was the beginning of the desyfering of the code at Blechly Park. Also the worlds first computer helped to break the code. Its name was colossus.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Thongkorn

[simple1]

"Germany stayed on it's side of the channel and the Brits did the same until the Americans got there"

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong there.

Read-up on the British Expeditionary Force & Dunkirk, they were on the Continent, not in the U.K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

Perhaps also look at the Channel Islands, where Germany invaded & occupied British soil ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

I would also doubt that the London Blitz could be described as Germany staying on its own side of the Channel.

You know you are absolutist correct. I was referring to another poster who maintained that Britain was America's first line of defense which I think was never the case. The Atlantic ocean being a far greater deterrent. I think back then and even now America is the only nation capable of launching a large scale amphibious invasion.

WW11 European theatre.

Operation Torch

105 USN 196 RN

Operation Husky

435 USN 930 RN

Operation Avalanche

125 USN 128 British and allied

Operation Single

154 USN 215 British & Allied

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsAmphibious.htm

Normandy landing

Overall planning & naval command by Britain admiral, the majority of naval vessels supplied by UK & Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy_landings#Naval_activity

D Day Normandy commander, Dwight D. Eisenhour.

Operation Shingle, Commander American Major General John P. Lucas

Operation Avalanche Commander American Mark Clark.

Operation Husky commander, American Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

Operation Torch Commander American Gen Dwight D Eisenhower.

All I was pointing out was the criticality of British naval forces for amphibious landings and greater contribution of naval assets in the European Theatre. Esssential for the strategy agreed at the Arcadia Conference.

As a point of detail, at the time of TORCH, Eisenhower's permanent grade was still lieutenant colonel and a lower rank than some of those he was commanding.

[thailiketoo]

There where two types of Enigma machines,The German Navy Enigma machine was totally different. from the Ones used by the German Military and Air force.

it was the fact that the Navy got complacent and did not change the spools on the machine, as should have been done every day, that was the beginning of the desyfering of the code at Blechly Park. Also the worlds first computer helped to break the code. Its name was colossus.

Who were the first ones to break a German military enigma code/machine and in what year? As much as you want to, you can't change the facts. There have been numerous articles and books written about the Enigma code breach. However, the role that the Polish cryptologist's school had played in it has always been omitted. An example of this was seen in 1974, when F. W. Winterbotham published a book titled "The Ultra Secret", where he claimed that the British were the first to break this cipher. There has been very little published about the people who were truly the first to break the Enigma enciphered messages. This distinction belongs to the Poles who accomplished that feat in the late 1930s.

The Polish Biuro Szyfr?w (Cipher Bureau) was among the best. The team that cracked the Enigma codes was comprised of Marian Rejewski, Jerzy R?zycki and Henryk Zygalski. By the end of the War, 10,000 people with sophisticated computers were decoding Axis messages, which they never could have done without the pioneering work of these three brilliant men.

Since it was their brilliant work, turned over to the British, which allowed the Allies to read the German messages, it is hard to believe that the English never allowed them to work as codebreakers on the vital Kriegsmarine (Navy) Schl?ssel-M traffic, which was not broken until naval rotors VI and VII were captured.

A couple of questions, http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~foss/valentin/Polish_breackdown.html

1. Might not Rejewski have been able to employ the same methods in solving the wiring of those rotors that he had so successfully used before?

2. Another question, Was it British arrogance that denied the Poles their due in so many publications once "Ultra" was no longer under wraps?

[bonobo]

Let's refrain from getting personal in our posts.

[wilcopops]

There where two types of Enigma machines,The German Navy Enigma machine was totally different. from the Ones used by the German Military and Air force.

it was the fact that the Navy got complacent and did not change the spools on the machine, as should have been done every day, that was the beginning of the desyfering of the code at Blechly Park. Also the worlds first computer helped to break the code. Its name was colossus.

Te enigma machine was modified SEVERAL times from the 1920s onwards.

[harrry]

I think it is probably more accurate to say that the Poles discovered the method that the machine used, They did not crack the code. It is probably true that the work was used to actually crack the code in the same way as a programmer uses what people know of what a computer does to write programs.Both deserve credit but they are seperate credits. Without the English they knew how the box did work but could not do anything with the code.

[thailiketoo]

I think it is probably more accurate to say that the Poles discovered the method that the machine used, They did not crack the code. It is probably true that the work was used to actually crack the code in the same way as a programmer uses what people know of what a computer does to write programs.Both deserve credit but they are seperate credits. Without the English they knew how the box did work but could not do anything with the code.

It would be more accurate to say the Poles handed over to the british a complete solution to the German codes.

"July 25, 1939, at a secret meeting in the Kabackie Woods near the town of Pyry, the Poles handed over their complete solution to the German codes, their Enigma replicas and bomby to the dumbfounded British."

http://www.macs.hw.a...breackdown.html

Edited August 25, 2014 by thailiketoo

[KhunAussie52]

As far as I know the Japanese arrived off the coast at Surat Thani and gave the Thai PM until midnight to let the Japs land use Thailand as a stepping stone to other countries.

If no response was given by midnight the Japs would invade. As the Thai PM was not in Bangkok and could not be reached by midnight the Japanese did land at Surat and a battle ensued between them and pitchfork wielding Thais. Many Thais were killed in this skirmish.

Eventually the Thai PM was found and gave his permission for the Japanese to use Thailand as a base and the fighting in Surat ceased.

I can't remember where I read this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

This offers a full account of the Japanese invasion of Thailand

here is an extract-

Prachuap Khiri Khan

Main article: Battle of Prachuab Khirikhan

Prachuap Khiri Khan was home to the Royal Thai Air Force's Fifth Wing, under the command of Wing Commander M. L. Pravat Chumsai. The Japanese 2nd Infantry Battalion of the 143rd Infantry Regiment under Major Kisoyoshi Utsunomiya landed at 03:00 from one troopship, and occupied the town after having crushed police resistance there.

Further landings took place near the airfield to the south. The Japanese laid siege to the airfield, but the Thai airmen along with Prachuap Khirikhan Provincial Police managed to hold out until noon on the next day, when they received orders from the Thai government to cease fighting. The Japanese lost 115 dead according to Japanese estimates and 217 dead and 300+ wounded according to Thai estimates. The Thais lost 37 dead and 27 wounded.^[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasion_of_Thailand