Norwegian Chiropractor arrested by Pattaya Immigration Police

[NomadJoe]

Hopefully the undercover foreign operative had a work permit.

The labor department has made clear that only regular volunteer work requires a work permit. One off or the occasional, non regular volunteer work doesn't not require a WP.

In addition, there are several exemptions to the requirements of the Alien Immigration Act which allow foreigners to work without a WP in Thailand.

From WORKING OF ALIENS ACT, B.E. 2521 (1978)

Section 4. This Act does not apply to performance of specific duty by aliens in the Kingdom in the following capacities:

(1) as members of a diplomatic mission;

(2) as members of a consular mission;

(3) as representatives of member countries and officials of the United Nations and specialized institutions;

(4) as personal servants coming from foreign countries to work regularly for persons in (1) or (2) or (3);(5) as persons who perform duty or mission under an agreement concluded between the Government of Thailand and foreign Governments or international organizations;

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

(7) as persons permitted by the Government of Thailand to enter and perform any duty or mission.

[Baerboxer]

as chiropractic is quackery, one can only conclude that Thailand is better off.

Says you!

20 years ago I had a significant lower back problem. I was walking with a stick, in pain and being overtaken by old people with zimmer frames! My doctor advised I could have an operation but that the chances were 50:50 - success or failure which would result in a permanent need for a stick. Or I could, as he recommended try a chiropractor. I went for about 8 treatments. Very attractive and well qualified young lady who took her own x-rays, explained what she would do, had some very good equipment and, thankfully, was able to correct it. Several years later I was able to help coach a rugby football team, referee and return to teaching martial arts. I got back to a very good level of fitness. She worked out an exercise warm up and warm down program to help ensure the problem never returned, which to date is hasn't. She was expensive but my company insurance covered it.

That was my experience so not quackery.What was yours?

[raro]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

Was he a qualified Chiropractor?

Yes.

What a shame! I used his services before and he's an excellent Chiropractor. Very nice guy on top of it.

[Chicken George]

Never known a Chiropractor using drugs on his patients never heard of that.. Not qualified it seems to. Could end up without a happy ending! ;-))

[TechnikaIII]

He is the best chiropractor I have been to in Pattaya, and better than all but ne I have been to in Saudi Arabia and England.

Big loss to the community.

Try and run an unregistered business of any description in Norway, as an illegal immigrant working for "svart penger" (black money) and see what sort of sympathy you get from the Norwegian authorities, however valuable you think you are.

None !

Norway is the most protectionist country on the planet!

This guy is no different from the Russian woman recently stopped at the border .. the diving school manager. Remember her?

[Docno]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

I agree.

there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand.

it forces people to go illegal.

a one-man business cant afford to employ several FULL TIME thai people.

Why cant Thailand create a "Small Business Visa" with perhaps allowance for 1 Thai staff.. (or part time staff).

and (as someone mentioned before), i wonder if the Foreign person that was used in this "sting operation" had a work visa, (because he would have been PAID (possibly) by the Police for his time and effort).

even if the Foreigner that the police used had a Work Visa, then it will have been valid ONLY FOR THE JOB THAT HE WAS PERMITTED TO DO... (not for a secondary job.

I would not be surprised at all if the police broke immigration rules to catch a man that was probably providing a good service that is hard to find in Thailand.

All the "GOOD" Chiropractors i have ever visited in Bkk are all Foreigners!!

"there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand. it forces people to go illegal."

No, nothing forces anyone to 'go illegal'. It's quite simple: if it's against the law, don't do it (or try to get the law changed). Sometimes it seems that people here hold foreigners in Thailand to a different set of standards than they would hold foreigners to back in their own countries.

[Baerboxer]

I wonder just what a qualified chiropractor is qualified to do. I have noticed that chiropractors without borders is not rushing to deal with the Ebola outbreak.

Google is your friend. Try it. Google chiropractor, then Ebola and see if you think they go together.

Bet you won't find many eye specialists, plastic surgeons, skin specialists or gynaecology experts rushing to deal with the Ebola outbreak either.

[Yann55]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

What is a FALONG ????

Did the guy even check if he could get a work permit, i dont think so. He had a student visa, so obviously he hasnt the funds, so lets open a clinic, sod the laws, bye bye

A FALONG is a whit parson.

[mok199]

i have been to 2 bone dr's in pattaya...i am currently looking for a new one....hard to find

[TheyCallmeScooter]

If you enjoy putting your bodily well-being in the hands of an amateur, good luck to you.

Why not choose a local?

The man is a criminal, no matter how nice he seems.

It's a scary world where one can be a criminal without any victims or intent to hurt anyone.

As a victim of professionals my entire life (you can't pay for pain relief in this world without risking pain being inflicted by those who profit from pain relief), I would much rather put my body and health in the hands of an enthusiastic amateur. At the very least, you know they're not part of any guilds or corruption.

Take psychiatrists, for example. The AMA has published the fact that SSRIs are no better than placebo for patients without extremely severe depression but the criminals keep on prescribing them. They wouldn't be criminals to you because they're legally hurting people. This healer helps people and to you, he's a criminal.

What a world we live in. Don't get me started on surgeons.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Geese! I wish I knew about him last week. I could have got my back clicked back into place.

[media]

Penn and Teller say that Chiropractors are a scam like feng shui.

[parmo2]

Since when did Thais care about "rules" ? Obviously the bribe wasn't enough

[the happy camper]

Chiropractors have fallen out of favor with mainstream doctors in the US.

The best you can hope for is a good massage, the worst consequence is paralysis.

Not the kind of risk reward ratio worth trying.

I know a chiropractor who gave up his practice to go to law school.

I'm not sure if he is now doing more or less harm.

[tinhead]

There's room for him in Vietnam. The set up wouldn't be that difficult, and he would be legal, and in high demand.

[easybullet3]

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This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

I agree.

there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand.

it forces people to go illegal.

a one-man business cant afford to employ several FULL TIME thai people.

Why cant Thailand create a "Small Business Visa" with perhaps allowance for 1 Thai staff.. (or part time staff).

and (as someone mentioned before), i wonder if the Foreign person that was used in this "sting operation" had a work visa, (because he would have been PAID (possibly) by the Police for his time and effort).

even if the Foreigner that the police used had a Work Visa, then it will have been valid ONLY FOR THE JOB THAT HE WAS PERMITTED TO DO... (not for a secondary job.

I would not be surprised at all if the police broke immigration rules to catch a man that was probably providing a good service that is hard to find in Thailand.

All the "GOOD" Chiropractors i have ever visited in Bkk are all Foreigners!!

"there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand. it forces people to go illegal."

No, nothing forces anyone to 'go illegal'. It's quite simple: if it's against the law, don't do it (or try to get the law changed). Sometimes it seems that people here hold foreigners in Thailand to a different set of standards than they would hold foreigners to back in their own countries.

I agree with doing things "by the law"

but it would be helpful if the "Law" allowed for small businesses to set-up in Thailand.

seems there is only room for medium and large business in thailand.

how on earth is someone supposed to start-up if the threshold is too high!

if this Norwegian guy had been successful, then I am very sure he may have GROWN his business.. and finally had enough customers to get a Thai receptionist or helper.

it seems you are overlooking the fact that business will HOPEFULLY grow. and when it does, you employ more people to supply the demand.

I have had at least 5 or 6 decent business ideas myself that I cant do because of this EXACT situation.

imagine if 1 or 2 of my ideas were good and grew big. I could possibly have 2 businesses by now employing several thai staff and paying tax money to the country.

from my point of view, I see the government as "shooting yourself in the foot".

do you really still see it as a good thing that thailand gives an unhelpful hand to 'small business' as you said in your first post ?

anyway,, i am SURE they could do better for small business. coz right now, it sucks.

i have no idea how easy or difficult it would be for a foreigner that is currently living in the US or UK or Australia to get a visa to set up a small business..

but also, (bear on mind) Thailand is more than happy to treat its foreigners in ways that are different to the rest of the world.

PS: do all the arabic guys with "kebab" stalls on the street have visas to work? I never saw any thai staff working on these stalls ever.

in bangkok (around sukhumvit) I know at least 3 or 4 Arabic guys that sell kebabs from a small "one-man" stall in the street.

how do these guys manage to do it (on the street,,, in front of police eyes).

i would LOVE to know if they are finding a smart way around the law legally.

or,, maybe they are married or something... or part of a larger company.

if anyone knows,, please say

Edited August 20, 2014 by easybullet3

[kaizoku]

Big lost, Vincens if you read this message know that we will miss you.

I used his services twice and been very happy with it.

As many said before me, it's not like there is any Thai that are able to do his job in Pattaya ...

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I wonder just what a qualified chiropractor is qualified to do. I have noticed that chiropractors without borders is not rushing to deal with the Ebola outbreak.

A chiropractor (possibly Norwegian, I remember she was Scandinavian) saved my life. My wrists were killing me, literally. I was about to let the surgeons cut them up and make me an invalid without hands for 6 months, an operation with only a low chance of success. My other option was...permanent.

But this little blonde healer cracked and adjusted and rebuilt my stabilising muscles and charged me $135 total for the month (I'd spent about 40,000 in 8 months prior, mostly on physios who just made it worse; I believe, intentionally).

A good chiropractor is very valuable.

[BestBitterPhuket]

Thailand will be a lot less attractive place to live, because most of these illegal businesses do serve a purpose and there is a market for their goods and services. I know a lot of those people on their high horse with valid work permits are breaching those permits every day, as they go beyond the permitted scope of work. That is equally a crime.

I would NEVER want to set up a business in Thailand, I have a business in Singapore, and it was extremely easy to set up. The most successful countries in Asia are also the most liberal when it comes to allowing foreigners to set up businesses, own land, work etc. Closed quasi-open economies like Thailand are doomed to fail, and Thailand is now in the process of being overtaken by Philippines, having been overtaken by Vietnam already. Myanmar will race past Thailand in 30 years. Will Thailand keep Laos and Cambodia at bay, or will Thailand be at the bottom of ASEAN? Without any REAL reforms, Thailand will be last one day. However, the Thai elite will continue to sing and dance and live the high-so life...

Edited August 20, 2014 by BestBitterPhuket

[petercool]

troll post removed

[Yann55]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

I agree.

there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand.

it forces people to go illegal.

a one-man business cant afford to employ several FULL TIME thai people.

Why cant Thailand create a "Small Business Visa" with perhaps allowance for 1 Thai staff.. (or part time staff).

and (as someone mentioned before), i wonder if the Foreign person that was used in this "sting operation" had a work visa, (because he would have been PAID (possibly) by the Police for his time and effort).

even if the Foreigner that the police used had a Work Visa, then it will have been valid ONLY FOR THE JOB THAT HE WAS PERMITTED TO DO... (not for a secondary job.

I would not be surprised at all if the police broke immigration rules to catch a man that was probably providing a good service that is hard to find in Thailand.

All the "GOOD" Chiropractors i have ever visited in Bkk are all Foreigners!!

"there is NO ROOM for small businesses to set up in Thailand. it forces people to go illegal."

No, nothing forces anyone to 'go illegal'. It's quite simple: if it's against the law, don't do it (or try to get the law changed). Sometimes it seems that people here hold foreigners in Thailand to a different set of standards than they would hold foreigners to back in their own countries.

I like the clear and straightforward way you summarize the situation in your second paragraph. It also accurately raises a point with which I agree 100% : Again and again, especially here on TV, I am shocked when I see how the same person will one day write some outrageously racist comment about illegal immigration in Europe or the States and the next day express absolute shock at not being given special treatment by Thai authorities, obviously assuming that being white is somehow a naturally superior status. I guess it's the typical 'post colonial' attitude, and it stinks.

The other poster is right about one thing, though: I wouldn't say there is 'no room' for small foreign businesses in Thailand, but there certainly isn't much. Is this because of a subtle xenophobic attitude or simply because in the bigger picture of lawmakers, small businesses should be kept for Thai people ? Perhaps it's a mix of both.

Having lived in Thailand for 13 years now, i have seen many Westerners arriving with some money, a specific skill in some field or other, a definite liking for this country (for all kinds of reasons), and a willingness to work hard. They go through the complicated legal motions and open their shop (some don't even reach that stage) ... and after a year or 2 most of them are bitter, discouraged, disappointed, angry, and ready to join the Thai bashing brigade on TV.

I wouldn't venture to offer an explanation here and now because i believe there is enough matter for a whole book actually, and it seems there is enough misunderstanding on both sides to keep lawyers busy (and anger steaming) for decades. But one thing for sure, the 'post colonial attitude' doesn't help. Lots of white people assume that Thais don't see it unless it's clearly expressed, but they do. What Thais don't understand precisely they can guess, and they are good at reading body language, which is often not too subtle anyway in Westerners who are confronted with 'thainess'. That's not to justify xenophobia on the Thai side, but it does explain some of it.

This Norwegian guy's strategy is not sound, as you rightly pointed, because it's simply illegal, and if you're living in a foreign country, you abide by its laws, whether you like them or not, agree with them or not. If it's true that the only good chiropractors are foreigners, then it means that in this field as in many others, Thai lawmakers ought perhaps to create some kind of special status which would include compulsory training of Thai students.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Yann55

[wilcopops]

I went to see him yesterday morning and as ever he was exceptionally professional and sorted out a problem that has caused me a great deal of pain. To accuse him of being a criminal and amateur is churlish at the very least - sure he evidently bent the rules but he took his job seriously - he had had over 200 weeks of training in his home country with the diplomas to prove it. It is a real shame that Pattaya will now be deprived of the only decent chiropractor around - now any of us with back problems will have to go to Bangkok - a journey in itself which is likely to give you some! I am 69 years old and have been practicing various extreme sports at high levels for years and have had recourse to a lot of chiropractors and oesteopaths - Vince was undoubtedly one of the best and I was fortnate to find him. Good luck Vince!

All chiropractic is based on theory that has no scientific background, therefore any diagnosis made by this method is liable to be ill-informed. how can these people claim to be "professional" in any meaningful way?

[monk280915]

Seems the majority are missing the point here. If a person or business do not follow the law of whatever country they happen to be in they are breaking the law and subject to punishment. It doesn't matter how qualified they are or how much that particular service is needed. People complain every day back in their home country about foreigners not following proper visa requirements, taking jobs, not speaking the local language etc. so why should it be different in Thailand?

[Shamrock 1234]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Undercover foreign operative? They are really getting clever now.

If this Vince guy is as good as people say he is he should be able to find a way to sort out this mess he's in now, clear his fines, and come back. If he finds a Thai partner who is is licensed and accredited it wouldn't be too difficult to get a work permit.

Good practitioner are hard to come by and by all accounts this guy does a good job. Best advice is to find a Thai Doctor and work with him/ her. They form a partnership and then he gets a work permit under that arrangement.

[NativeSon360]

Seems like someone has been manipulating the system and massaging the rules here.

Talk about belaboring the obvious. Since when has manipulating the system become a rare phenomenon, in any country, and especially in Thailand.

[larsjohnsson]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

What is a FALONG ????

A Falong is a farang without WP

[monkey4u]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

What is a FALONG ????

Did the guy even check if he could get a work permit, i dont think so. He had a student visa, so obviously he hasnt the funds, so lets open a clinic, sod the laws, bye bye

"Falong " possibly a vertical furlong

[DrTuner]

Makes sense that after tightening immigration they'll go after those who have somehow passed the net. I wonder how long until they crack down on bar owners.

[Gandtee]

Whatever the laws are I find it repugnant that "Farangs" are used as a Judas Goat.

[NativeSon360]

Seems the majority are missing the point here. If a person or business do not follow the law of whatever country they happen to be in they are breaking the law and subject to punishment. It doesn't matter how qualified they are or how much that particular service is needed. People complain every day back in their home country about foreigners not following proper visa requirements, taking jobs, not speaking the local language etc. so why should it be different in Thailand?