Gaza conflict: Truce ends amid fresh fighting

[Ulysses G.]

It is actually the direct consequence of Gazans electing such an extremist terror organization.

An extremist terror organization, purposely targeting civilians with mortar rounds.

[Seastallion]

One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just.

Of course, CBR250 neglects to mention that his poll was carried out following the massacre of five Israeli family members in Itamar in 2011 by Palestinians. His agenda to demonize Israel and ignore the barbarity of Hamas grows more and more clear.

I was under the impression that this particular crime was never solved.

I'm not familiar with the crime but it's no surprise that right wing elements would blame them without proof. If 5 people dead is what those right wing elements call a massacre, I wonder what 2000 dead would be called?

[Seastallion]

You were invited to back up one of your claims way back on post #224. You have not done so - and we both know the reason for your avoidance is because that claim you made - as with others - is patently absurd. Neither have you condemned the hateful rubbish spewed out by some notable Israelis that I drew to your attention.

Israel may be "protecting its people", but this is only a minor aim in the larger game of stealing the land of the Palestinian people - and of course appeasing the egos of Netanyahu and his fellow murderous politicians.

And you suggest I am engaged in a "keyboard war"? Another of your fantasies. No, I write to convey information and offer analysis. And prefer to do so to those who have the wit to engage in discussion - I actually don't mind if people disagree, as long as they do so from a considered position, with evidence, and the capacity to employ logic. You, unfortunately, seem unwilling or unable to demonstrate any of those qualities.

I do not need to back up my claim, simply because you are either not capable or not willing to even consider the facts.

And the facts are Israel does not promote hatred towards Arabs or Palestinians. Arabs and Palestinians do.

Facts are Israel punishes those responsible for price attacks or hate speeches, , Arabs and Palestinians encourage attacks, kidnappings and hate speech. Not only encourage it but reward it and promote it .

Fact is your poll was conducted at a certain location at certain timing, with 500 people, incase you were not aware, Israel has 8.2 million people, so 500 does not even make 0.1 %.

For you to come to conclusion that after less than 0.1% were surveyed, 46% did not like Palestinians is a fact of Israels hate towards Palestinians is as i said before beyond comprehension, nevertheless expected from Israel bashers.

Fact is Israel does not allow discrimination against Arabs and any public hate speeches are forbidden and punishable.

Now you claim to convey information and offer analysis, please post your credentials to give you some credibility, otherwise your analysis of situation worth as much as a used toilet paper.

You don't seem to even understand what a "fact" is. It is not your opinion. It is not the opinion of some mentally deranged poster who you quote.

Nor have any understanding of the methodology of survey research. Your response simply reinforces my view that you are unable to engage intellectually with this topic.

My credentials are my logic - here for all to see. Your credentials are also here for all to see.

There's only been one Pro-Israeli poster who uses reason, (albeit sometimes somewhat convoluted) and he's honest enough to admit confusion over the issue and also to concede that Palestinians have the first gripe.

Your credentials of logic are exemplary. As are your research skills and knowledge of the subject. I have no doubt your other credentials are of high standard and of course you're not going to flaunt them here.

[dr_lucas]

One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just.

Of course, CBR250 neglects to mention that his poll was carried out following the massacre of five Israeli family members in Itamar in 2011 by Palestinians. His agenda to demonize Israel and ignore the barbarity of Hamas grows more and more clear.

I was under the impression that this particular crime was never solved.

It was solved.

[dr_lucas]

One poll shows that "46% of Israelis support price attacks". That may be a minority, but only just.

Of course, CBR250 neglects to mention that his poll was carried out following the massacre of five Israeli family members in Itamar in 2011 by Palestinians. His agenda to demonize Israel and ignore the barbarity of Hamas grows more and more clear.

I was under the impression that this particular crime was never solved.

I'm not familiar with the crime but it's no surprise that right wing elements would blame them without proof. If 5 people dead is what those right wing elements call a massacre, I wonder what 2000 dead would be called?

Of course anything that can demonize Israel is no surprise for a biased mind.

5 murdered family members (baby, children, parents) deliberately murdered in their sleep, is a massacre.

2,000 people, out of which hundreds if not more are armed militants, others who were killed by Hamas, others who died of natural causes, while others being used as human shields and no innocents being deliberately targeted, are not.

Edited August 23, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Seastallion]

This morning, a 4 year old boy was killed in Israel.

Condolences to the family of this innocent child.

But this is a direct consequence of Israel electing such an extremist government. Maybe voters will think before they vote in the next election.

Isn't that how the oft repeated tune goes?

Condolences...but. "Beautiful".

It is actually the direct consequence of Gazans electing such an extremist terror organization.

You, and JT who like your post, should read and contemplate the entire CBR250 post that is quoted. It was a balanced and sympathetic cry to the tragedies that are occurring every day.

Really....for once, stop with your blind hatred and consider all the facts. Really contemplate the post.

I despair for humanity.

[CBR250]

This morning, a 4 year old boy was killed in Israel.

Condolences to the family of this innocent child.

But this is a direct consequence of Israel electing such an extremist government. Maybe voters will think before they vote in the next election.

Isn't that how the oft repeated tune goes?

Condolences...but. "Beautiful".

It is actually the direct consequence of Gazans electing such an extremist terror organization.

Or the direct consequence of the Israelis electing such warmongering megalomaniacs as Netanyahu and Lieberman. Take your pick. Both ring true.

[Ulysses G.]

There's only been one Pro-Israeli poster who uses reason

Would that be Morch or Johpa or dr_lucas? They all display a lot more reason, common sense and historical knowledge than any other posters in these threads.

[Jingthing]

Defending against the genocidal intentions of Hamas is no garden party.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Seastallion]

I'm not familiar with the crime but it's no surprise that right wing elements would blame them without proof. If 5 people dead is what those right wing elements call a massacre, I wonder what 2000 dead would be called?

Of course nothing that can demonize is surprise for a biased mind.

5 murdered family members (baby and children) deliberately murdered in their sleep, is a massacre.

2,000 people, out of which hundreds if not more are armed militants, other killed by Hamas, others died of natural causes, while others being used as human shields and no innocents being deliberately targeted, are not.

Let your callousness show for all to see.

You're really clutching at straws to try to bring natural deaths into the official figures. You're saying human shields killed are valid deaths (and it is entirely arguable that human shields are used in such a densely packed city...just as more likely the "human shield" allegation is a right wing propaganda meme), and you are ill-informed if you think no innocents have been targeted.

Shame on you. Shame!.

[Ulysses G.]

more likely the "human shield" allegation is a right wing propaganda meme

Nonsense. Hamas encouraging Palestinians to act as human shields.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI

[arjunadawn]

The picture shows mourners filling the mosque during the funeral for 26 members of the Abu Jame family, who were killed the previous day during an Israeli attack on the Bani Suhaila neighborhood of Khan Younis, Gaza Strip, July 21, 2014. Reports indicate that 15 of the 24 killed were children of the Abu Jame family.

That is a sad photo. Obviously little children are not combatants. I don't know the background story, but it's likely at least some members of that family were combatants. If so, they should have put a big distance between themselves and their family members. Not doing so endangers the other family members.

Traditionally, warriors have not gone to battle with family members nearby. IDF has grave issues with those shooting off bombs and the shooters' handlers. Israel authorities don't want to kill innocents and doesn't target them. Yet, in every war, innocents get killed. Palestinians long ago lost the military conflict. Because they won't acknowledge it, they continue to fight, and misery continues to befall them and innocents nearby.

Indeed, both sad and we do not know the background story. We can assume terrible things like this happen, but because of the deliberate, and constant manipulation of media within these areas, we also cannot be sure. There have been previous examples both in Iraq and particularly in the Arab/Israeli conflict where people who were either killed elsewhere, killed previously, not even dead, etc., were exploited for western media consumption. Do we then, as humans, minimize the suffering of others? No, but an inquiring mind should mentally shop with awareness. From Hamas and the local arab perspective, the media portion of this war is their most casualty producing weapon.

[Seastallion]

The picture shows mourners filling the mosque during the funeral for 26 members of the Abu Jame family, who were killed the previous day during an Israeli attack on the Bani Suhaila neighborhood of Khan Younis, Gaza Strip, July 21, 2014. Reports indicate that 15 of the 24 killed were children of the Abu Jame family.

That is a sad photo. Obviously little children are not combatants. I don't know the background story, but it's likely at least some members of that family were combatants. If so, they should have put a big distance between themselves and their family members. Not doing so endangers the other family members.

Traditionally, warriors have not gone to battle with family members nearby. IDF has grave issues with those shooting off bombs and the shooters' handlers. Israel authorities don't want to kill innocents and doesn't target them. Yet, in every war, innocents get killed. Palestinians long ago lost the military conflict. Because they won't acknowledge it, they continue to fight, and misery continues to befall them and innocents nearby.

What makes you say "it's likely" some family members were combatants? Do you know the population of Gaza? Do you know how many Hamas militants there are (remaining)? Look at the proportions and do the math, and tell us the likeliehood that any home contains militants.

Either you have knowledge that we don't have here, or you are jumping to conclusions in a biased way.

You also seem to be saying that "some" militants out of the 24 dead, 15 of which were children, is OK.

You are also patently and provably wrong when you say the IDF does not target innocents. They do.

[Seastallion]

It's obvious and well known that Hamas overcounts "innocent" civilian casualties. Of course they do. It's their key propaganda tool in their campaign to demonize Israel and irrationally paint Jews as intentional child killers. Sadly their tricks are working and many westerners without knowledge of the genocidal nature of Hamas are buying into these distortions.

Citation needed for this wild claim. And are you saying impartial international organisations that confirm the figures are liars too?

If you can't provide proof, and if you are saying they're liars, then your post is just a drama queen scream of nothingness.

[Ulysses G.]

What makes you say "it's likely" some family members were combatants?

Weren't you complaining about other posters not using "reason"? Israel targets terrorists, but they often stay with their families, who get killed in strikes meant for the combatant. It is not a secret.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[konying]

It's obvious and well known that Hamas overcounts "innocent" civilian casualties. Of course they do. It's their key propaganda tool in their campaign to demonize Israel and irrationally paint Jews as intentional child killers. Sadly their tricks are working and many westerners without knowledge of the genocidal nature of Hamas are buying into these distortions.

Citation needed for this wild claim. And are you saying impartial international organisations that confirm the figures are liars too?

If you can't provide proof, and if you are saying they're liars, then your post is just a drama queen scream of nothingness.

Plenty of evidence has been posted over a number of threads and if I recall correctly one by chuck d was directed at your post, only you chose to dismiss facts again, to bring in other irrelevant nonsense.

Italian journalist confirmed all the accusations, Indian crew has poster on YouTube , many other evidence openly available , but I am certain not acceptable because bashing Israel is what you do.

[dr_lucas]

This morning, a 4 year old boy was killed in Israel.

Condolences to the family of this innocent child.

But this is a direct consequence of Israel electing such an extremist government. Maybe voters will think before they vote in the next election.

Isn't that how the oft repeated tune goes?

Condolences...but. "Beautiful".

It is actually the direct consequence of Gazans electing such an extremist terror organization.

You, and JT who like your post, should read and contemplate the entire CBR250 post that is quoted. It was a balanced and sympathetic cry to the tragedies that are occurring every day.

Really....for once, stop with your blind hatred and consider all the facts. Really contemplate the post.

I despair for humanity.

Balanced and sympathetic maybe only in your own Australian minds.

If it was just that bit, I'd agree. Adding his usual anti-Israeli poison to it was his main reason for posting, like all other posts he & you make on these topics, mate. No added sugar coating gonna change this.

So am I, like yourself - really despair for humanity for having such blind, ignorant (although usually intelligent) people posting their opinions while they don't know what the definition "Arab" means, what really happened in the Holocaust and what Goebles doctrine was and or who think that all Israelis are European immigrants.

People who think reading or quoting "1984" making them geniuses and experts in all international issues and especially the Arab conflict.

People who think if they learnt a few words "Hasbara", "eretz israel", "shalom" and who spent a few minutes in a Kibbutz, make them experts to all things Israel (and Palestinians).

People who constantly dodge any question, for which answer to will put Israel in a positive light.

People who see terrorists savagely executing people, even their own, keep silence, but when they see a country executing terrorist-leaders who attack it (when it's nearly impossible to kill them more discriminately than that) - outcry.

People when being asked "what is a proportional response to such attacks?", have no idea what to answer, yet they have a lot of criticism.

People who don't have the humility to stay out of discussions they are not fully understanding/informed or at the very least not post lies and manufactured facts & opinions and call them "well documented facts".

Other than that, I stand behind my post, which was a reply to up_country_sinclair, not to anybody else.

I, for once, am not the one with blind hatred (unless you mean hatred for ignorance & lies), on the contrary, I am full of love and hope for peace and believe all men were born equal.

You, mate, should read many of my posts (or even better, Morch's). Maybe you will learn a few things, maybe you've learned everything you can or willing.

Either way, it's time for a change.

[boomerangutang]

The picture shows mourners filling the mosque during the funeral for 26 members of the Abu Jame family, who were killed the previous day during an Israeli attack on the Bani Suhaila neighborhood of Khan Younis, Gaza Strip, July 21, 2014. Reports indicate that 15 of the 24 killed were children of the Abu Jame family.

That is a sad photo. Obviously little children are not combatants. I don't know the background story, but it's likely at least some members of that family were combatants. If so, they should have put a big distance between themselves and their family members. Not doing so endangers the other family members.

Traditionally, warriors have not gone to battle with family members nearby. IDF has grave issues with those shooting off bombs and the shooters' handlers. Israel authorities don't want to kill innocents and doesn't target them. Yet, in every war, innocents get killed. Palestinians long ago lost the military conflict. Because they won't acknowledge it, they continue to fight, and misery continues to befall them and innocents nearby.

What makes you say "it's likely" some family members were combatants? Do you know the population of Gaza? Do you know how many Hamas militants there are (remaining)? Look at the proportions and do the math, and tell us the likeliehood that any home contains militants.

Either you have knowledge that we don't have here, or you are jumping to conclusions in a biased way.

You also seem to be saying that "some" militants out of the 24 dead, 15 of which were children, is OK.

You are also patently and provably wrong when you say the IDF does not target innocents. They do.

Neither you nor I know how many of that family, who were killed, were militants. Neither do we know if they were killed by IDF or Palestinians or (as another poster alluded to) possibly corpses from elsewhere who were taken to be in a photo. There is no level too low for radical Islamists to stoop to.

As for 'likelihood that some families contain militants.' Every boy who grows up in Gaza is encouraged to go along with firebrand beliefs of radical Jew haters. 'Encouraged' is probably too lightweight a term. They're effectively forced to go with the flow. So, if there are, let's say, 90,000 young Palestinian men in Gaza, that's 90,000 men (between the ages of 6 and 42) who are required to toe the line of being Israeli haters. Variation of thought is not allowed. Deviation from that view is met with a bullet to the forehead.

[Ulysses G.]

If you can't provide proof, and if you are saying they're liars, then your post is just a drama queen scream of nothingness.

There is plenty of proof that Hamas are liars, including the numerous ceasefires that they have signed on to and then violated in the last few months. Stop being ridiculous.

[Seastallion]

It's obvious and well known that Hamas overcounts "innocent" civilian casualties. Of course they do. It's their key propaganda tool in their campaign to demonize Israel and irrationally paint Jews as intentional child killers. Sadly their tricks are working and many westerners without knowledge of the genocidal nature of Hamas are buying into these distortions.

Citation needed for this wild claim. And are you saying impartial international organisations that confirm the figures are liars too?

If you can't provide proof, and if you are saying they're liars, then your post is just a drama queen scream of nothingness.

Plenty of evidence has been posted over a number of threads and if I recall correctly one by chuck d was directed at your post, only you chose to dismiss facts again, to bring in other irrelevant nonsense.

Italian journalist confirmed all the accusations, Indian crew has poster on YouTube , many other evidence openly available , but I am certain not acceptable because bashing Israel is what you do.

I didn't see chucky's "evidence"., so I did not "choose to dismiss facts".....assuming they were facts and not drivel or propaganda again. Just didn't see it.

Official figures are observed by impartial organisations.

Reverse propaganda is also available on the net, for example a video of shrouded bodies moving which is portrayed as "Those XXXX Muslims lying AGAIN, XXX XXXX etc etc". The truth of the video is that it was a simple re-enactment and no deceit was intended....but the Israeli propagandists seized upon it with zeal!

I think we have to take the official figures for what they are and ignore the propaganda from both sides.

[konying]

It's obvious and well known that Hamas overcounts "innocent" civilian casualties. Of course they do. It's their key propaganda tool in their campaign to demonize Israel and irrationally paint Jews as intentional child killers. Sadly their tricks are working and many westerners without knowledge of the genocidal nature of Hamas are buying into these distortions.

Citation needed for this wild claim. And are you saying impartial international organisations that confirm the figures are liars too?

If you can't provide proof, and if you are saying they're liars, then your post is just a drama queen scream of nothingness.

Plenty of evidence has been posted over a number of threads and if I recall correctly one by chuck d was directed at your post, only you chose to dismiss facts again, to bring in other irrelevant nonsense.

Italian journalist confirmed all the accusations, Indian crew has poster on YouTube , many other evidence openly available , but I am certain not acceptable because bashing Israel is what you do.

I didn't see chucky's "evidence"., so I did not "choose to dismiss facts".....assuming they were facts and not drivel or propaganda again. Just didn't see it.

Official figures are observed by impartial organisations.

Reverse propaganda is also available on the net, for example a video of shrouded bodies moving which is portrayed as "Those XXXX Muslims lying AGAIN, XXX XXXX etc etc". The truth of the video is that it was a simple re-enactment and no deceit was intended....but the Israeli propagandists seized upon it with zeal!

I think we have to take the official figures for what they are and ignore the propaganda from both sides.

Ok, so lets hear your take on evidence provided by Italian journalist?

Now when you say impartial, are you referring to UNRWA which store rockets and return them back to Hamas? Or are you referring to another agency?

Edited August 23, 2014 by konying

[Seastallion]

The picture shows mourners filling the mosque during the funeral for 26 members of the Abu Jame family, who were killed the previous day during an Israeli attack on the Bani Suhaila neighborhood of Khan Younis, Gaza Strip, July 21, 2014. Reports indicate that 15 of the 24 killed were children of the Abu Jame family.

That is a sad photo. Obviously little children are not combatants. I don't know the background story, but it's likely at least some members of that family were combatants. If so, they should have put a big distance between themselves and their family members. Not doing so endangers the other family members.

Traditionally, warriors have not gone to battle with family members nearby. IDF has grave issues with those shooting off bombs and the shooters' handlers. Israel authorities don't want to kill innocents and doesn't target them. Yet, in every war, innocents get killed. Palestinians long ago lost the military conflict. Because they won't acknowledge it, they continue to fight, and misery continues to befall them and innocents nearby.

What makes you say "it's likely" some family members were combatants? Do you know the population of Gaza? Do you know how many Hamas militants there are (remaining)? Look at the proportions and do the math, and tell us the likeliehood that any home contains militants.

Either you have knowledge that we don't have here, or you are jumping to conclusions in a biased way.

You also seem to be saying that "some" militants out of the 24 dead, 15 of which were children, is OK.

You are also patently and provably wrong when you say the IDF does not target innocents. They do.

Neither you nor I know how many of that family, who were killed, were militants. Neither do we know if they were killed by IDF or Palestinians or (as another poster alluded to) possibly corpses from elsewhere who were taken to be in a photo. There is no level too low for radical Islamists to stoop to.

As for 'likelihood that some families contain militants.' Every boy who grows up in Gaza is encouraged to go along with firebrand beliefs of radical Jew haters. 'Encouraged' is probably too lightweight a term. They're effectively forced to go with the flow. So, if there are, let's say, 90,000 young Palestinian men in Gaza, that's 90,000 men (between the ages of 6 and 42) who are required to toe the line of being Israeli haters. Variation of thought is not allowed. Deviation from that view is met with a bullet to the forehead.

!?

Let me respond point by point.

No we don't know, so you can't assert likeliehood.

The veracity of the report is not in doubt except to straw-clutchers that need to desperately cling to the notion that Israel is beyond reproach.

There is no level that Zionists will not stoop to.

A 6 year old is not a militant.

Your claim regarding "every boy" is patently false.

Your claim that 90 000 men and boys are forced to hate is absurd, as is your claim that deviation is met with a bullet to the forehead. Absolutely absurd.

You really should try reading balanced commentaries and keep away from the radical BS.

[Jingthing]

There is no level the Zionists will not stoop to? Sounds like hate speech to me.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Seastallion]

Isn't that how the oft repeated tune goes?

Condolences...but. "Beautiful".

It is actually the direct consequence of Gazans electing such an extremist terror organization.

You, and JT who like your post, should read and contemplate the entire CBR250 post that is quoted. It was a balanced and sympathetic cry to the tragedies that are occurring every day.

Really....for once, stop with your blind hatred and consider all the facts. Really contemplate the post.

I despair for humanity.

Balanced and sympathetic maybe only in your own Australian minds.

If it was just that bit, I'd agree. Adding his usual anti-Israeli poison to it was his main reason for posting, like all other posts he & you make on these topics, mate. No added sugar coating gonna change this.

So am I, like yourself - really despair for humanity for having such blind, ignorant (although usually intelligent) people posting their opinions while they don't know what the definition "Arab" means, what really happened in the Holocaust and what Goebles doctrine was and or who think that all Israelis are European immigrants.

People who think reading or quoting "1984" making them geniuses and experts in all international issues and especially the Arab conflict.

People who think if they learnt a few words "Hasbara", "eretz israel", "shalom" and who spent a few minutes in a Kibbutz, make them experts to all things Israel (and Palestinians).

People who constantly dodge any question, for which answer to will put Israel in a positive light.

People who see terrorists savagely executing people, even their own, keep silence, but when they see a country executing terrorist-leaders who attack it (when it's nearly impossible to kill them more discriminately than that) - outcry.

People when being asked "what is a proportional response to such attacks?", have no idea what to answer, yet they have a lot of criticism.

People who don't have the humility to stay out of discussions they are not fully understanding/informed or at the very least not post lies and manufactured facts & opinions and call them "well documented facts".

Other than that, I stand behind my post, which was a reply to up_country_sinclair, not to anybody else.

I, for once, am not the one with blind hatred (unless you mean hatred for ignorance & lies), on the contrary, I am full of love and hope for peace and believe all men were born equal.

You, mate, should read many of my posts (or even better, Morch's). Maybe you will learn a few things, maybe you've learned everything you can or willing.

Either way, it's time for a change.

"..only in...Australian minds"? Your showing your proclivity for racism...wrong word...discrimination.

What has "the definition of Arab" got to do with this (again, your proclivity is probably showing), and, most importantly, what has what happened during the holocaust got to do with this?...What? Except for showing the giant chip on the collective shoulder that somehow makes Jews fragile "nobody should oppose us no matter what we do or say, and if you do oppose us, you're as bad as the Nazis" drama queens..Actually, you'd think that what happened during the holocaust would make today's Jews abhor what is being done to the Palestinians.

blah blah your commentary on other posters.....

What, in your mind IS appropriate response to rockets that fall in empty fields?

You obviously think you are well qualified to be in this discussion....yet show considerable bias.

You resent me commenting on your post....the truth hurts.

I WILL change my stance, as soon as a rational argument is made, which is more than can be said for the likes of you and some of your cronies....the lot of you constantly ignore truth, valid points, and justice.

Mate.

[Seastallion]

There is no level the Zionists will not stoop to? Sounds like hate speech to me.

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If it is, then "there is no level Islamist won't stoop to" is also hate speech. Would you agree?

It was a response in kind simply to make the point that both side are devious, murderous, dishonest and generally not nice.

Or is the collective chip on shoulder once again crying anti-Semitism while ignoring exactly the same words were leveled at the other group?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Seastallion

[Jingthing]

There is no level the Zionists will not stoop to? Sounds like hate speech to me.

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If it is, then "there is no level Islamist won't stoop to" is also hate speech. Would you agree?

Not interested in responding to baits from people who are so rabidly anti-Zionist.

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[Ulysses G.]

If it is, then "there is no level Islamist won't stoop to" is also hate speech.

Did anyone say that - besides you?

[konying]

If it is, then "there is no level Islamist won't stoop to" is also hate speech.

Did anyone say that - besides you?

But have you noticed, how once again, "conveniently" he overlooked post 264?

[CBR250]

Balanced and sympathetic maybe only in your own Australian minds.

If it was just that bit, I'd agree. Adding his usual anti-Israeli poison to it was his main reason for posting, like all other posts he & you make on these topics, mate. No added sugar coating gonna change this.

So am I, like yourself - really despair for humanity for having such blind, ignorant (although usually intelligent) people posting their opinions while they don't know what the definition "Arab" means, what really happened in the Holocaust and what Goebles doctrine was and or who think that all Israelis are European immigrants.

People who think reading or quoting "1984" making them geniuses and experts in all international issues and especially the Arab conflict.

People who think if they learnt a few words "Hasbara", "eretz israel", "shalom" and who spent a few minutes in a Kibbutz, make them experts to all things Israel (and Palestinians).

People who constantly dodge any question, for which answer to will put Israel in a positive light.

People who see terrorists savagely executing people, even their own, keep silence, but when they see a country executing terrorist-leaders who attack it (when it's nearly impossible to kill them more discriminately than that) - outcry.

People when being asked "what is a proportional response to such attacks?", have no idea what to answer, yet they have a lot of criticism.

People who don't have the humility to stay out of discussions they are not fully understanding/informed or at the very least not post lies and manufactured facts & opinions and call them "well documented facts".

Other than that, I stand behind my post, which was a reply to up_country_sinclair, not to anybody else.

I, for once, am not the one with blind hatred (unless you mean hatred for ignorance & lies), on the contrary, I am full of love and hope for peace and believe all men were born equal.

You, mate, should read many of my posts (or even better, Morch's). Maybe you will learn a few things, maybe you've learned everything you can or willing.

Either way, it's time for a change.

Well, cobber, you have outdone yourself with yet another arrogant rant. That's twice today, so I can only guess at what may have befallen you. And, BTW, what is it about Australians? That's twice you have tried to use the term as some sort of dig. Do you really think that calling someone Australian has some insult value? Or aren't other nationalities than yours entitled to opinions in your friendly little world of pro-Israeli apologists?

And I have not accused you of blind hatred - an extraordinarily heavy bias towards one side, yes. Which is evident. But hatred, no.

I would also point out that adult humans who possess the power of rational thought (a rare commodity amongst some of your confreres, as I'm sure even you have noticed) do tend to develop their own ideas. As I have done. And many others who oppose Israel's actions on this thread. You obviously resent the fact that people arrive at their own conclusions, but you will just have to adjust - the world is like that. And like many other people who publicly undertake to highlight the inhumanity of Israel's actions, and the absurdity of its political positions, I am aware of the traditional dominance of Israeli views across the English speaking world. I believe that for a balanced picture to be presented I must at times pay greater attention to the wrongs perpetrated by Israel. And it will no doubt surprise you, but I really do care for Israel, and want it to survive into the future with a healthy and happy population. There are people whom I love dearly in Israel. But that doesn't justify turning a blind eye to its excesses.

And I readily acknowledge that my experience of living in Israel is probably far less than yours (although I suspect that even my few short weeks in Palestine visiting a university, schools, homes, youth clubs, and refugee camps may be more than your involvement). But you imply that a limited exposure to daily life in Israel means a limited understanding of the situation. Well, normally that may be true. But given the over-exposure of Israelis to the hasbara (that word again!) propaganda machine, I would propose that the limited time there may be an advantage in arriving at a more impartial view. But even were I to have never set foot in Israel, my views are still entitled to credence. More so because they do not arrive from a religious, cultural or ethnic prejudice, but from an adherence to principles of humanity and an appetite for reading. And to illustrate the absurdity of your protest: I suspect that you are not an expert on the Weimar Republic but would have views on the nature of German politics in that era. Unlike you, this would not be sufficient basis for me to insist that you keep these to yourself - nor would I indulge in such a supercilious and mean-spirited little rant as you have done if I disagreed with them. And I suggest that you don't advocate for others pay more attention to views that accord with yours while you have the temerity to ignore theirs. Shalom (another one of those words).

[Seastallion]

There is no level the Zionists will not stoop to? Sounds like hate speech to me.

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If it is, then "there is no level Islamist won't stoop to" is also hate speech. Would you agree?

Not interested in responding to baits from people who are so rabidly anti-Zionist.

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Really?? "Baits"?

Here is a prime example of how biased you actually are, and how you refuse to answer when proven so; "There is no level radical Islamists will not stoop to" is OK by you, but exchange one group for the other and it is hate speech, and when called on it you say I am baiting.