Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[jaywalker]

After reading the linked article, I would ask of all Thaivisa members to please have a thought for AYJAYDEE and JLCrab, two of our esteemed posters, who have now lost their favorite topic of conversation: harping on and on about how people working online are criminals working illegally. May they soon find another topic to post inane replies to.

I agree with the quote above.

Looks like the Chiang Mai whatever website could use a freelancer to help them out a bit.

The article/web page is saying it's offline at the moment. Just wondering if it's because the webmaster Somchai from CH "University" is incompetent or maybe it's a true tech glich. My guess is it's a 50/50 chance of either one being the case.

I AM a web designer, so I know technical glitches happen, but I often see Thai websites that are patheticaly put together and/or maintained for months on end.

If you look up the Thai consulate in Miami, quite a few of the links don't work. Has been that way forever.

I'm looking to get a new Non-O Marriage visa. I'll be driving 4 hours to get to Miami, as I'd like to get my passport back in a few days & don't trust them to mail it back to me. I wonder just how out of date their information is????

EDIT: Just checked that link again......Sorry Somchai......Must've been a tech glitch. It's working now.

Edited August 21, 2014 by jaywalker

[Rasmoo]

While I personally think the term "digital nomad" sounds a bit dumb, it applies to A LOT of people. I am a freelance consultant, who specializes in child protection, child protection organizational policies for NGOs, and training in child protection for NGOs. Because I am freelance, there is no visa category for me. And because I am consulting mainly for Australian NGOs who have programs in the Asia region, and I am a sole trader registered in Australia, and all my pay goes into my Australian bank account, BUT I am basically sitting at my computer in Bangkok, reviewing policy documents, making amendments to strengthen them, and then flying off to Myanmar or Nepal or wherever to do training and such, there is still no visa category for me. I file for taxes - in Australia - even though I don't have to because I don't live there. I would have NO PROBLEM paying taxes to the Thai government, but there is no way for me to do so. I prefer to live here, because Australia is stupidly expensive, and anyway these are where my client's programs are.

After fretting over this for 6 months, I am finally biting the bullet and going back to the US (country of citizenship, Oz is perm residency) to apply for a Non-Immigrant B, courtesy of one of the legal firms floating about here. It's costing me an arm and a leg, but I figure to hell with it, try to get more 'legit'. This is only a one-year fix, and next year I'll probably have to move elsewhere. Meanwhile, I spend money in Thailand - rent, my housekeeper, shopping, utilities, transport, etc. etc. etc. Except taxes - BECAUSE I CANNOT. So please, instead of tarring all so-called digital nomads as tax dodgers or crooks or weirdo playboy millionaires, stop and think for a moment about all the people for whom there is no legal visa category and no way for us to pay taxes!

There - rant over. I'll believe this latest visa news when I see it, in writing, from the gov't. Which will probably be never. Cambodia is looking mighty attractive - it's a great place to live, probably should have gone there in the first place but wanted to give Bangkok a go. I expect Cambodia's expat population will begin to rise very soon...

[SiggiCM]

So where do you pay taxes if you are a digital nomad?

If you stay XXX amount of days in Thailand they have right to tax you.

Should be no problem on a single visa since you won’t hit the hard limit on days in the country.

(and I don’t remember but its around 180 days at least for Swedes were the tax should be payed in Thailand instead of Sweden.

And when the Thai government understands that they can earn a ton of tax money on this: could be ”fun”.)

You all start the discussion from the wrong side,

if you have to pay tax in thailand, you would be have the right to work here, if you want,

they cant say you have to pay tax but you are not allowed to earn this tax.

Again and again, this online work isnt illegal work in thailand, it can be illegal in the country where

the product is deliverd, but bever in thailand

[toooa]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

.

Double post sorry, but I still think the 'government' and immigration system has shot itself in the foot, leg and goolies by not creating a new visa for farang who can make ample amounts of moolah on the internet legally, it is easily done in many different ways, and it takes away no jobs from the oh so precious Thai work force, and the money goes straight into the economy. Why have they not addressed this properly?

Because verifying income and calculating tax payments would be very hard, if not impossible, to verify.

All governments demand taxes.. Thailand would be no different.

You said it LL.

These nomads want to dodge taxes. That's all there is to it.

'nuff said

~

The way you frame it makes it sound quite negative. Like they (the naughty tax dodgers) are somehow cheating you personally. If I may, I'd like to frame taxation in a different way. What if I said taxation is no different to a mugging?... well ok, a few tiny differences.

1. You don't see the gun.

2. There's no perp you can pin it on.

3. There's a time lag between the robbery and you knowing about it.

But my statist friend, be ye not deceived, it is the removal of your property, against your will, and (if necessary) at the point of a gun. So if we frame it like that, then the "tax dodgers" could be compared to people who skirt around sketchy areas in order to avoid muggings.

You can hardly blame them. Did you work hard all your life and faithfully pay your taxes so it could be wasted on this n' that nonsense? If it chaffs you a bit, remember, these "dodging nomads" aren't the enemy. They're not helping themselves to a portion of your earnings. I say good luck to them. Can't see how it's a problem.

Of course taxation is the very pillar of government so anything done to avoid losing all that juicy revenue is to be expected.

In the human farms we know as countries, taxation is the very milk, fresh from the udders of the good citizen cows. Give 'em a bit of breathing room, keep 'em fenced, but a bit of freedom to wander makes the milk creamier.

To the dodgers lurking out there, all the more power to you.

nuff said.

Edited August 21, 2014 by toooa

[INV]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

I am perfectly happy making my pittance of a wage teaching English here. I live a splendidly comfortable life here.

I don't envy you in the least.

I've never said I thought the internet entrepreneurs to be bad sorts, but I agree with JLCrabb, that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here.

The only thing I object to is the condescension, arrogance,

and he "I'm so much better than all you old retired ba$t@@ds" mentality.

I've never been resentful of someone with more money until they brag about it.

"that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here." well tell me how?

I would be more than happy to open a small web company and start with 1 staff and then build slowly but I can't do that. I need to get 4 staff (with no knowledge of basic English)and a office and as I see in some post I need get a photo with the office and staff wearing company shirts/uniform? Totally nuts to start with that and then next thing, I can't open the company without a Thai partners that will own 51% and they have to show that they really put in 51% of the money(2 mil for 1 wp) Share my company with Thais?? Nuts. And yes I know most ppl do this the wrong way with fake papers and proxies and its all illegal so why would I even try ? It's all BS .

[SiggiCM]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I am no different to anyone visiting Thailand, such as someone checking their work email while on vacation, someone writing or researching for a book (e.g. does a Lonely Planet researcher have a work permit?) or someone playing the stock market, online poker or even moving money around from bank accounts to investing.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

finially somebody with some brain,

the only thing is that it can be hard to get a visa for staying in thailand but never for doing any PC work outside thailand

[j8k]

Unless a digital nomad actually admits to the authorities that they are working then it's virtually impossible to be found out. I leave no trace on my laptop what I am doing. If someone came up to me in a cafe asking what I was using my laptop for I would say I am listening to music, surfing the web, emailing home, sorting out my photos etc....and let's face it this is not going to happen.

God forbid the authorities have enough time to track down digital nomads when there are foreign criminals running around causing real harm, suffering or foreign workers taking away a Thai's job.

Being a digital nomad is the ultimate 'under the radar' way to live, the authorities don't like this way of living anywhere, screw them!

(update: have just read that Swedish link and it looks like working remotely is allowed on a tourist visa so I really think this conversation is over!)

Edited August 21, 2014 by j8k

[Havrum]

Enough people have already dumped on the old man that posted earlier but he needs to get out more and meet people if he thinks there are only 100 such people in all of Thailand. I've known at least half that number in my time in Thailand doing all sorts of things. And then there was the other chap that said there are only two types of digital nomads, stock traders and website designers. No mate, there are hundreds types of internet jobs. If you can think of it there are people working it.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Havrum

[SiggiCM]

1 Question

Do anybody know 1 example that someone get accused for working illegal with his computer`?

ANYBODY HERE?

but please only when you can make a example what is proved,

not like : a good friend told me

[catweazle]

Great!

[Equalizer]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

Unless "nomad" is legally defined as YOU being nomadic, and not your business operations being nomadic. Thailand (if there is a legal definition of nomad in Thailand) may define a nomad as someone who lives in many places, and thus excludes anyone who lives here full time.

I think the word nomad is used to define several factors, in my case.

1. Is this person taking a potential Thai job? NO

2. Is this person buying and selling goods from Thailand? NO

3. Is this persons income inland revenue? NO

4. Is this persons income out land revenue? YES

This is basically the same as someone taking savings from an overseas bank and depositing into a Thai bank to put into the Thai economy simply to stay here.

In my case i have a Thai wife and a daughter, School fees, health care, mortgage, car, and if i am luck a few soups down at the local every now and then.

He is selling and shipping worldwide. That would of course include Thailand

2. Is this person buying and selling goods from Thailand? NO READ THE WORDS BEFORE YOU MOUTH OFF.

[Havrum]

1 Question

Do anybody know 1 example that someone get accused for working illegal with his computer`?

ANYBODY HERE?

but please only when you can make a example what is proved,

not like : a good friend told me

Not that I know of but we are the unintended blowback victims of the Immigration Bureaucracy's crackdown on the poor immigrants doing "Thai" jobs, vis a vis their tightening visa policy making life harder on us as well.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Havrum

[Equalizer]

Even if they put me in jail for it i would be the daddy of the borstal. Just tell a guard to lend me his lap top and i will be eating chicken dinner

[SiggiCM]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

I am perfectly happy making my pittance of a wage teaching English here. I live a splendidly comfortable life here.

I don't envy you in the least.

I've never said I thought the internet entrepreneurs to be bad sorts, but I agree with JLCrabb, that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here.

The only thing I object to is the condescension, arrogance,

and he "I'm so much better than all you old retired ba$t@@ds" mentality.

I've never been resentful of someone with more money until they brag about it.

for investment you need skills, and for IT investment i think thailand si 100 years away,

and you need laws who make it easy for a start up, 2000000 and 4 thais for each foreigner is crazy and stupid

because you not havve thai ITs on this level and you dont have thai investors who would pay the 51% share

what is needed by the law, so if 4 people who have a good idea in thailand want to make a start up,

thhey need 200000 baht, but thai dont eed this, thais can do it with 0 money,

and they would would need to rent a office, enploy 16 useless thais,

I guess a second Aple or Microsoft, SAP, Oracle, Facebook will not come from thailand,

[givenall]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

OP is this serious? This may change everything for a lot of people, and if they knew maybe the Thai economy won't suffer such a blow in the next quarter

The question should be how can one continue to get tourist visa since boarder run are not allowed anymore

[wilcopops]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

What a sad reply.

[SiggiCM]

1 Question

Do anybody know 1 example that someone get accused for working illegal with his computer`?

ANYBODY HERE?

but please only when you can make a example what is proved,

not like : a good friend told me

Not that I know of but we are the unintended blowback victims of the Immigration Bureaucracy's crackdown on the poor immigrants doing "Thai" jobs, vis a vis their tightening visa policy making life harder on us as well.

yes they can never catch you working illegal but they can make it impossible to stay in thailand legal,

as many people said it is their country, but they will face the answer for what they are doing,

worth education i have ever seen in my life,

most stupid students i ever met in my life and for sure i met many stupid people,

the thai peopel have the choice, even if it is hard but today with internet you get all information and

so they can know how a country and their life can look like, if they choose to

stay uneducated and poor ok! But they have a choice, same us, we can move somewhere where life is easier

[LivinLOS]

Even if they put me in jail for it i would be the daddy of the borstal. Just tell a guard to lend me his lap top and i will be eating chicken dinner

OK you can be daddy.. Now come over here and suck on mommys dick..

[j8k]

If I were to come back to Asia I'd choose Cambodia, far friendlier place to do business and far friendlier people (including the expats except those NGO types in PP who drive around in their big SUVs thinking they are gods gift to Cambodians!).

[jaywalker]

"that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here." well tell me how?

I would be more than happy to open a small web company and start with 1 staff and then build slowly but I can't do that. I need to get 4 staff (with no knowledge of basic English)and a office and as I see in some post I need get a photo with the office and staff wearing company shirts/uniform? Totally nuts to start with that and then next thing, I can't open the company without a Thai partners that will own 51% and they have to show that they really put in 51% of the money(2 mil for 1 wp) Share my company with Thais?? Nuts. And yes I know most ppl do this the wrong way with fake papers and proxies and its all illegal so why would I even try ? It's all BS .

We're from the government, and we're here to help.

[monk213]

1 Question

Do anybody know 1 example that someone get accused for working illegal with his computer`?

ANYBODY HERE?

but please only when you can make a example what is proved,

not like : a good friend told me

Like the poster above you some who only has 5 posts and admits to working etc, he knows what he's doing and has probably changed his IP and has other software which protects him. I can sit here right now with an IP in California, it isn't hard. There is a lot to the internet most people do not even know about. heck some people won't know what an IP is

[KamalaRider]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

Unless "nomad" is legally defined as YOU being nomadic, and not your business operations being nomadic. Thailand (if there is a legal definition of nomad in Thailand) may define a nomad as someone who lives in many places, and thus excludes anyone who lives here full time.

You are splitting hairs... The qualifying factor is that the foreigner is on a tourist visa... How would they track "nomads"?

The Thai ISP's are required to save all the network traffic so you could be just that, tracked down and prosecuted/deported.

That's why it's illegal to have a a VPN connection in Thailand.

They can't see your traffic and your routes, it's encrypted.

[CharlieH]

Some posts removed

Forum Netiquette

1. Please do not post in all capital letters, bold, unusual fonts, sizes or colors. It can be difficult to read.

[seancbk]

Double post sorry, but I still think the 'government' and immigration system has shot itself in the foot, leg and goolies by not creating a new visa for farang who can make ample amounts of moolah on the internet legally, it is easily done in many different ways, and it takes away no jobs from the oh so precious Thai work force, and the money goes straight into the economy. Why have they not addressed this properly?

Because verifying income and calculating tax payments would be very hard, if not impossible, to verify.

All governments demand taxes.. Thailand would be no different.

So they can go to all of these lengths to make sure we report to immigration when we move province, to stamp down on illegal workers and reforming the ED visa scheme, but it is not in their interest to try and make a visa and tax scheme for these types of people so they can make money from the tax itself and also push a hell of a lot of money into the economy? Again, Thailand ceases to amaze me

How would Thailand be able to demand, and enforce, the production of all income sources when those sources are from outside Thailand ??

One suggestion would be to set a 'min wage' under which taxes would need to be paid on the income even if not generated.. Say 60k a month min wages needed for this class and the the taxes for 60k as a minimum paid for each month the visa class is operated.

Another would be to demand accounting of all inward remittances and add 30% on top of that. sort of taxing the 'income' used in Thailand.. However again this would be VERY hard to police and also puts people in a position of being unable to afford taxes after spending the money.

Given that the salary level to get a Work Permit is only 50K baht, so why not make the taxable amount that, rather than 60K baht.

[jaywalker]

I tried to get my old boss to set me up with an IT arm of his company. I'd been doing part time consulting work for him (illegaly for 3 years - which was OK though as we were working for the Army - no way to get busted there!)

Anyhow I tried to explain my concept to this super nice guy I've known for 10+ years, and it all went "VROOM!" right over his head, and I had even set up his website for him!!!!!!!

I was trying to get legal, willing to pay Thai taxes and split the net profits 50/50 with him etc.... All income would have been from the USA, UK, Canada, Australia etc.

Really smart guy. He knows how to bribe the Army to get contracts (saw it happen with my own two eyes), but this concept blew him away = even (some) educated, English speaking Thai folks really have no concept of the world outside.

I flew back to Florida & have it set up now....in my name. Yep, I'll be a digital nomad when I return.

[bluecheesefan]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

Unless "nomad" is legally defined as YOU being nomadic, and not your business operations being nomadic. Thailand (if there is a legal definition of nomad in Thailand) may define a nomad as someone who lives in many places, and thus excludes anyone who lives here full time.

You are splitting hairs... The qualifying factor is that the foreigner is on a tourist visa... How would they track "nomads"?

The Thai ISP's are required to save all the network traffic so you could be just that, tracked down and prosecuted/deported.

That's why it's illegal to have a a VPN connection in Thailand.

They can't see your traffic and your routes, it's encrypted.

Read this topic about VPNs: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/334588-proxies-vpn-and-other-information/

It isn't using a VPN that is illegal it is using it to bad things such as hacking.

[KamalaRider]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

I am perfectly happy making my pittance of a wage teaching English here. I live a splendidly comfortable life here.

I don't envy you in the least.

I've never said I thought the internet entrepreneurs to be bad sorts, but I agree with JLCrabb, that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here.

The only thing I object to is the condescension, arrogance,

and he "I'm so much better than all you old retired ba$t@@ds" mentality.

I've never been resentful of someone with more money until they brag about it.

"that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here." well tell me how?

I would be more than happy to open a small web company and start with 1 staff and then build slowly but I can't do that. I need to get 4 staff (with no knowledge of basic English)and a office and as I see in some post I need get a photo with the office and staff wearing company shirts/uniform? Totally nuts to start with that and then next thing, I can't open the company without a Thai partners that will own 51% and they have to show that they really put in 51% of the money(2 mil for 1 wp) Share my company with Thais?? Nuts. And yes I know most ppl do this the wrong way with fake papers and proxies and its all illegal so why would I even try ? It's all BS .

It's not with a condesending tone I write this.

Web companies aren't IT business in the sense of the word. It's more like journalism or informational systems, like a word processor (wonderful term isn't it, like the words are processed by a machine and then pops out the other end, completly altered into a finished product).

There goes 20 web "programmer" on a dozen here in Thailand, but there doesn't seem to exist any hardcore programmer, like C++,C# or even VB.NET on a client/server environment, much less database skills.

I have advertised, tried with contacts and a lot more to find me some Thai IT staff, but I gave up a year ago.

The concept of OOP doesn't seem to be taught at even university levels here in Thailand. (OOP = Object Oriented Programming).

My staff i have are purely concentrated on design and book keeping.

I had an embryo a while ago who had university degree in programming, but she left because she got a headache learning OOP. She only knew PHP when I hired her and that is absolutely not enough when dealing with large companies who's got multiple platforms and operating on an international basis, not web "programming".

[j8k]

I can easily do work on my disconnected laptop, then copy it over to a memory stick and walk into an any internet cafe and upload it from one of their PCs without leaving any trace. I can also use anonymous software too on my laptop too and encryption.

I am guessing my technology skills are light year's ahead your average government bod.

It's simply not worth their time or effort to track down someone writing a book or designing a logo for a client in Europe!

Anyway it is not even illegal on a tourist visa.

[monk213]

I am guessing the hostility from other foreigners on this forum towards digital nomads is based on the fact they are frustrated with their own lowly earning power in the Kingdom, e.g. a few hundred dollars a month for teaching English to a load of little brats.

I wouldn't get out of my deck chair for that! lol.

I am perfectly happy making my pittance of a wage teaching English here. I live a splendidly comfortable life here.

I don't envy you in the least.

I've never said I thought the internet entrepreneurs to be bad sorts, but I agree with JLCrabb, that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here.

The only thing I object to is the condescension, arrogance,

and he "I'm so much better than all you old retired ba$t@@ds" mentality.

I've never been resentful of someone with more money until they brag about it.

"that Thailand wants IT people to actually invest and hire Thais, not just live here." well tell me how?

I would be more than happy to open a small web company and start with 1 staff and then build slowly but I can't do that. I need to get 4 staff (with no knowledge of basic English)and a office and as I see in some post I need get a photo with the office and staff wearing company shirts/uniform? Totally nuts to start with that and then next thing, I can't open the company without a Thai partners that will own 51% and they have to show that they really put in 51% of the money(2 mil for 1 wp) Share my company with Thais?? Nuts. And yes I know most ppl do this the wrong way with fake papers and proxies and its all illegal so why would I even try ? It's all BS .

It's not with a condesending tone I write this.

Web companies aren't IT business in the sense of the word. It's more like journalism or informational systems, like a word processor (wonderful term isn't it, like the words are processed by a machine and then pops out the other end, completly altered into a finished product).

There goes 20 web "programmer" on a dozen here in Thailand, but there doesn't seem to exist any hardcore programmer, like C++,C# or even VB.NET on a client/server environment, much less database skills.

I have advertised, tried with contacts and a lot more to find me some Thai IT staff, but I gave up a year ago.

The concept of OOP doesn't seem to be taught at even university levels here in Thailand. (OOP = Object Oriented Programming).

My staff i have are purely concentrated on design and book keeping.

I had an embryo a while ago who had university degree in programming, but she left because she got a headache learning OOP. She only knew PHP when I hired her and that is absolutely not enough when dealing with large companies who's got multiple platforms and operating on an international basis, not web "programming".

Don't worry, those 4 Thai nationals can turn on and off your computers, open the doors and make you coffee / tea, that is all I can see them serving a purpose for in a business in these types of industries

[KamalaRider]

I can easily do work on my disconnected laptop, then copy it over to a memory stick and walk into an any internet cafe and upload it from one of their PCs without leaving any trace. I can also use anonymous software too on my laptop too and encryption.

I am guessing my technology skills are light year's ahead your average government bod.

It's simply not worth their time or effort to track down someone writing a book or designing a logo for a client in Europe!

Anyway it is not even illegal on a tourist visa.

Yes it is, but like you said, they don't bother about the occasional perputrator.

Edited August 21, 2014 by KamalaRider