3 x 30years lease question from Ask the Lawyer

[Boycie]

With reference to this post Amortizing sales prices for land registration

The member RDavis is a newbie and he states 'I purchased 2 adjoining properties and the land'. My first thoughts were how did you buy the land? Then states on a leasehold basis, fair enough, but for 3 terms of 30 years each, thought that was not possible?

RDavis states that the Lessor registered the properties for the 1st Term of 30 years, and is thinking that his leasehold is good for another 60 years after that, but i believe there is no guarantees.

I know the lawyer answered the question that was posted, but it left me with more questions.

[Crossy]

Correct, the second and third lease terms are not legally enforceable if the lessor decides to renege on the deal.

[Boycie]

So RDavis has paid upfront 8.9M for what he or she believes is a 90 year lease, when it could well be only 30 years.

I would of thought that Ask the Lawyer would have mentioned this in their reply. Think i'll post them the question in a new topic.

If any other members/guests read this, please beware with false sales pitches of 60/90 year leases in Thailand.

[KittenKong]

... please beware with false sales pitches of 60/90 year leases in Thailand.

You mean "please beware with any property transaction of any type in Thailand".

Property in Thailand is an endless stream of lies, deceit, half-truths and misrepresentation.

[Boycie]

... please beware with false sales pitches of 60/90 year leases in Thailand.

You mean "please beware with any property transaction of any type in Thailand".

Property in Thailand is an endless stream of lies, deceit, half-truths and misrepresentation.

No, i mean what i wrote because the topic is about 3 x 30 year leases. I'm not wanting to go and start discussing 'Property in Thailand is an endless stream of lies, deceit, half-truths and misrepresentation'.

I've posted a question in Ask the Lawyer and will report back with their response.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Boycie

[KittenKong]

No, i mean what i wrote because the topic is about 3 x 30 year leases. I'm not wanting to go and start discussing 'Property in Thailand is an endless stream of lies, deceit, half-truths and misrepresentation'.

It's all property and so not off-topic.

Would you also warn people about muggers on the left-hand pavement but not about those on the right-hand one?

[Boycie]

I agree with your comment "please beware with any property transaction of any type in Thailand", as you should anywhere in the world.

But then you post a personal opinion about "Property in Thailand". The next poster might have wrote "rent", next "buy a condo", then we would have the same argument as in many other threads. The mods will close this one before I can post the reply from 'Ask the Lawyer'!

PS With regards to "muggers", I'm a middle of the road man.

[Showbags]

Do you think ask the lawyer is there to really answer questions for free....or fund his porsche upgrade?

[pomchop]

Correct, the second and third lease terms are not legally enforceable if the lessor decides to renege on the deal.

That is what I was also told....also I think the original lessor and lesee or perhaps some "legit heir" must still be alive and be willing to go in and record the second and third 30 year term? not sure if that is true or not but highly unlikely that many will still be around for that time frame...or that an heir would co-operate.

I do think you can have a legal 30 year lease but beyond that appears to be a real crap shoot.

[KittenKong]

The first lease is written on the chanote and is enforceable. Any subsequent lease is not written on the chanote until the previous one has ended, and as such is not really enforceable until that time (and good luck trying a civil action for breach of contract 30 years on, or if the other party is dead).

This subject has been extensively covered here and the only people who ever say anything contrary to the above seem to be people who are trying to sell leasehold property. I wonder why?

All that said, it's a mystery to me why Thailand doesn't just introduce proper 99 year leases as this would solve just about all the company ownership and nominee structure issues at a stroke, and give a correct amount of security to those farangs who are currently tempted to buy in a wife or girlfriend's name, or who wish to pass property on to their offspring or other family.

[keeniau96]

What Crossy wrote is the fact re TH land offices. This has been discussed at length over the past several years at TV. 30 year lease is the max legal contract enforcable. Anything beyond that is wish and hope.

[ldnguy]

Do you think ask the lawyer is there to really answer questions for free....or fund his porsche upgrade?

Yes, he's there to answer questions for free in the hope of gaining some new clients. This is the way lawyers work in most countries. In the UK most lawyers will see you for free initially. You are no obligated to hire them. This is normal in many businesses. Nothing wrong with it all all. Not many lawyers drive a Porsche though.

[ldnguy]

The first lease is written on the chanote and is enforceable. Any subsequent lease is not written on the chanote until the previous one has ended, and as such is not really enforceable until that time (and good luck trying a civil action for breach of contract 30 years on, or if the other party is dead).

This subject has been extensively covered here and the only people who ever say anything contrary to the above seem to be people who are trying to sell leasehold property. I wonder why?

All that said, it's a mystery to me why Thailand doesn't just introduce proper 99 year leases as this would solve just about all the company ownership and nominee structure issues at a stroke, and give a correct amount of security to those farangs who are currently tempted to buy in a wife or girlfriend's name, or who wish to pass property on to their offspring or other family.

Eventually leases run down and you'd get the same problem. There are many leases in London for 30 years and less. All you have to do is pay the price for a 30-year lease if that's what you're getting. Then negotiate a new one in 30 years time. If you have Thai family, just put it in their name if you plan to leave it to them anyway.

[KittenKong]

Eventually leases run down and you'd get the same problem. There are many leases in London for 30 years and less.

If I bought a 99 year lease I would probably sell it on before it dropped below 60 years, and buy another longer one. Not so easy to do on short 30 year leases.

Anyway, the main point is that if you buy 99 years at age (say) 50 you can reasonably assume that the lease will take care of you and your wife and your offspring for life, which sounds good enough to me.

[ldnguy]

Eventually leases run down and you'd get the same problem. There are many leases in London for 30 years and less.

If I bought a 99 year lease I would probably sell it on before it dropped below 60 years, and buy another longer one. Not so easy to do on short 30 year leases.

Anyway, the main point is that if you buy 99 years at age (say) 50 you can reasonably assume that the lease will take care of you and your wife and your offspring for life, which sounds good enough to me.

But leases don't work like that. It everyone thought like you the only buyers would be over 50 because they'd want to ensure their offspring benefited, and you could never sell a 60-year lease because no-one wold want it. You seem to live in some kind of hypothetical fantasy world. In the real world no-one buys a property with 99-year lease and keeps it until the lease expires. Most people buy multiple properties during their lifetime. Even leases under 30 years have value because they should be still cheaper then renting I've seen an apartment in London with 20-year lease sold for over £1 million. A bargain compare to renting the same property for 20 years.

If you want 3 x 30-year leases in Thailand, you should pay for the first 30-years and then re-negotiate at the end of that period. So pay the 30-year price to begin, not the 90-year price. If you pay the 90-year price upfront then you're asking for trouble. I doubt many would do this in their home countries, but for some reason they lose their ability to think properly when they come here.

Edited August 29, 2014 by ldnguy

[piersbeckett]

The first lease is written on the chanote and is enforceable. Any subsequent lease is not written on the chanote until the previous one has ended, and as such is not really enforceable until that time (and good luck trying a civil action for breach of contract 30 years on, or if the other party is dead).

This subject has been extensively covered here and the only people who ever say anything contrary to the above seem to be people who are trying to sell leasehold property. I wonder why?

All that said, it's a mystery to me why Thailand doesn't just introduce proper 99 year leases as this would solve just about all the company ownership and nominee structure issues at a stroke, and give a correct amount of security to those farangs who are currently tempted to buy in a wife or girlfriend's name, or who wish to pass property on to their offspring or other family.

This is certainly the situation as I found it to be eighteen months ago as well as when I purchased a 30 year lease ten years ago.

[Boycie]

FAO RDavis the reply from Ask the Lawyer

"Any leasehold agreement must be registered at the land department and it is up to the discretion of the authorized official whether to approve it or not. This procedure used to be common but came under scrutiny and as such is not allowed anymore. There is no guarantee whatsoever after the initial 30 year lease is expired, there are many circumstances which can affect you in this regard where you will lose in a Thai court of law.

Death of the Lessor
Dispute of the contract before the initial 30 years are up
Straight up refusal of extension"

[properperson]

... please beware with false sales pitches of 60/90 year leases in Thailand.

You mean "please beware with any property transaction of any type in Thailand".

Property in Thailand is an endless stream of lies, deceit, half-truths and misrepresentation.

but, other than that, its ok ?

[KittenKong]

Property in Thailand is an endless stream of lies, deceit, half-truths and misrepresentation.

but, other than that, its ok ?

Yes.

The point is that on entering into a property transaction here you should assume that just about everything you are being told by the people involved with the sale is a lie. If you accept that, and double-check everything for yourself, then you probably wont have too much trouble.

[timewilltell]

Until someone cancels your lease through fraud and immediately sells it on to a third party. You will be four years in the courts and probably not win at the end as a foreigner because property leases are like hire contracts for a bicycle. It would be much better if foreigners bought no property here and the plummeting prices would force some action on the archaic and muddled property laws here.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app