Arizona shooting: Girl, nine, kills gun instructor

[submaniac]

Alaska has one of the most lenient gun laws of any state in the Union. Alaska allows concealed carry of a firearm without a permit. It is also one of the least populated states. It should also be kept in mind that Alaska has alot of wilderness and a lot of dangerous critters...like bears, grizzly bears, and even Polar Bears. There is a method to the madness. In Alaska you legitimately need a powerful gun for protection against bears (9mm handgun won't cut it folks). Also people in Alaska have a history with firearms. The original frontier settlers of Alaska needed guns to hunt for food, and to this day there's alot of people in Alaska that still rely on hunting in order to eat.

I grew up in North Dakota. I've been handling firearms since I was 12. That was not unusual there. I lived on 3 acres. Regularly used a .22 caliber to shoot vermin that were eating stuff from our garden. Most of the kids I grew up with, their parents had guns and took them hunting. I grew up with guns, I understand guns, and the gun traditions are very strong in the United States.

I have been on this forum a while, I have read plenty of comments about America's gun problems and most of them are made by people from the U.K. You guys just "don't get it". So let me try to explain.

This here is a map of the United States showing population density:

People from the U.K. just don't understand that the U.S. is a big country. There are very large population centers in the U.S., primarily on the coasts. But most of America is not like Los Angeles, New York, Miami, etc. Take a good look at the middle of the map (the American Midwest) and you should get the picture that alot of this area is pretty rural area where people...from the frontier days until now...still hunt. Guns are ingrained in American culture. There are so many people that have them and use them for hunting. And of course if you are a hunter (and have a rifle) you would also have other guns to round out the collection, like a handgun for protecting the house, maybe an AK-47 or AR-15 for giggles. (These are fun for plinking because these are military weapons, and you can buy surplus military ammo fairly cheaply--that is when the U.S. isn't at war, in which case the .223/5.56mm became pricey for a while; so it's not just us buying them because they look scary, it's because it is cheaper to shoot). So keep in mind that there are so many Americans who don't live in the big cities and who regularly use and have firearms, and you will realize how difficult it would be to implement the same kind of gun ban that the U.K. has.

In any event, I saw the video of the shooting. I don't have any qualms about a 9 year old firing a firearm with adult supervision. However, a full auto is a bit tricky for a child to control. And watching what the instructor did was cringeworthy to me. The girl did not have full control of the weapon. That was evident from her first shot which was not in full automatic. This was very very poor instruction. What non-Americans view as child abuse, I view as a right of passage. It's a parent spending time with their children and teaching them.

Edited August 30, 2014 by submaniac

[iancnx]

Alaska has one of the most lenient gun laws of any state in the Union. Alaska allows concealed carry of a firearm without a permit. It is also one of the least populated states. It should also be kept in mind that Alaska has alot of wilderness and a lot of dangerous critters...like bears, grizzly bears, and even Polar Bears. There is a method to the madness. In Alaska you legitimately need a powerful gun for protection against bears (9mm handgun won't cut it folks). Also people in Alaska have a history with firearms. The original frontier settlers of Alaska needed guns to hunt for food, and to this day there's alot of people in Alaska that still rely on hunting in order to eat.

I grew up in North Dakota. I've been handling firearms since I was 12. That was not unusual there. I lived on 3 acres. Regularly used a .22 caliber to shoot vermin that were eating stuff from our garden. Most of the kids I grew up with, their parents had guns and took them hunting. I grew up with guns, I understand guns, and the gun traditions are very strong in the United States.

I have been on this forum a while, I have read plenty of comments about America's gun problems and most of them are made by people from the U.K. You guys just "don't get it". So let me try to explain.

This here is a map of the United States showing population density:

People from the U.K. just don't understand that the U.S. is a big country. There are very large population centers in the U.S., primarily on the coasts. But most of America is not like Los Angeles, New York, Miami, etc. Take a good look at the middle of the map (the American Midwest) and you should get the picture that alot of this area is pretty rural area where people...from the frontier days until now...still hunt. Guns are ingrained in American culture. There are so many people that have them and use them for hunting. And of course if you are a hunter (and have a rifle) you would also have other guns to round out the collection, like a handgun for protecting the house, maybe an AK-47 or AR-15 for giggles. (These are fun for plinking because these are military weapons, and you can buy surplus military ammo fairly cheaply--that is when the U.S. isn't at war, in which case the .223/5.56mm became pricey for a while; so it's not just us buying them because they look scary, it's because it is cheaper to shoot). So keep in mind that there are so many Americans who don't live in the big cities and who regularly use and have firearms, and you will realize how difficult it would be to implement the same kind of gun ban that the U.K. has.

In any event, I saw the video of the shooting. I don't have any qualms about a 9 year old firing a firearm with adult supervision. However, a full auto is a bit tricky for a child to control. And watching what the instructor did was cringeworthy to me. The girl did not have full control of the weapon. That was evident from her first shot which was not in full automatic. This was very very poor instruction. What non-Americans view as child abuse, I view as a right of passage. It's a parent spending time with their children and teaching them.

Maniac indeed!

[Mister T]

Retarded parents, brainless range instructor, irresponsible NRA, won't be the last time.

Anyone who thinks differently to you, or doesn't have your wonderful powers of hind sight is retarded or brainless in your mind?

All accidents are normally a combination of things.

Drunken thugs often attack, seriously injure and kill people. Let's ban booze that'll solve it.

Hindsight has nothing to do with a little bit of common sense. A nine year old firing an automatic killing device - yep brainless. Accidents don't just happen, they are caused by non thinking people. I did not mention banning anything to solve the brainless problem.

[taony]

I am American and guns are not ingrained in my culture. They are ingrained in the heads if numnut rednecks. Its disgusting reading and watching the news about this story and seeing all these yahoos everywhere trying to explain it all away.

[submaniac]

Well if you don't like it why you write your congressman, and demand new laws be enacted to prevent ownership of these evil things? If it doesn't work, it might be because anyone in Congress already knows that the majority of Americans don't support more gun control. Do you not remember that Obama tried to push gun control just last year, and it went nowhere? See: http://reason.com/poll/2013/05/29/poll-two-thirds-of-americans-want-senate Any congressman who voted for it, would face being voted out of office. So really, there's more of us than there are of you.

it's also specifically protected in the U.S. Constitution, and in the Heller v. DC the U.S. Supreme Court held that owning a firearm for the purpose of self defense was Constitutionally protected. So it's in the U.S. constitution and the majority of Americans support gun ownership, don't tell me that it's not ingrained in American culture.

[LawrenceChee]

Well if you don't like it why you write your congressman, and demand new laws be enacted to prevent ownership of these evil things? If it doesn't work, it might be because anyone in Congress already knows that the majority of Americans don't support more gun control. Do you not remember that Obama tried to push gun control just last year, and it went nowhere? See: http://reason.com/poll/2013/05/29/poll-two-thirds-of-americans-want-senate Any congressman who voted for it, would face being voted out of office. So really, there's more of us than there are of you.

it's also specifically protected in the U.S. Constitution, and in the Heller v. DC the U.S. Supreme Court held that owning a firearm for the purpose of self defense was Constitutionally protected. So it's in the U.S. constitution and the majority of Americans support gun ownership, don't tell me that it's not ingrained in American culture.

Hence it's your own mess ...we don't understand it and we don't get it

All we know is factually USA has more gun tragedies than another other country in a domestic situation ...it's the only place where gun violence continues to thrive in a first world country ...where kids go to schools not knowing if one of their whack headed classmates has decided to make a statement and shoot everyone or in a Saturday stroll on a mall

It may also explain why in all political matters ...the Americans always believe sending firearms, chemical weapons are regarded as gifts ...bombarding a country is norm and that's sad

Indeed it's ingrained in that culture only and I hope not many more would join in

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Indeed it's ingrained in that culture only and I hope not many more would join in

If you don't like our culture, stop watching our movies and TV shows!

Geez, without us you would all be living in countries with Japanese, German or Russian culture.

[rijb]

Well if you don't like it why you write your congressman, and demand new laws be enacted to prevent ownership of these evil things? If it doesn't work, it might be because anyone in Congress already knows that the majority of Americans don't support more gun control. Do you not remember that Obama tried to push gun control just last year, and it went nowhere? See: http://reason.com/poll/2013/05/29/poll-two-thirds-of-americans-want-senate Any congressman who voted for it, would face being voted out of office. So really, there's more of us than there are of you.

it's also specifically protected in the U.S. Constitution, and in the Heller v. DC the U.S. Supreme Court held that owning a firearm for the purpose of self defense was Constitutionally protected. So it's in the U.S. constitution and the majority of Americans support gun ownership, don't tell me that it's not ingrained in American culture.

Hence it's your own mess ...we don't understand it and we don't get it

All we know is factually USA has more gun tragedies than another other country in a domestic situation ...it's the only place where gun violence continues to thrive in a first world country ...where kids go to schools not knowing if one of their whack headed classmates has decided to make a statement and shoot everyone or in a Saturday stroll on a mall

It may also explain why in all political matters ...the Americans always believe sending firearms, chemical weapons are regarded as gifts ...bombarding a country is norm and that's sad

Indeed it's ingrained in that culture only and I hope not many more would join in

We have Jihads fighting Jihads, Russia and China getting froggy with their neighbors, mutating plagues, global warming, earthquakes, unknown asteroids headed our way

… and you’re wetting your pants about guns in the U.S.

[LawrenceChee]

Indeed it's ingrained in that culture only and I hope not many more would join in

If you don't like our culture, stop watching our movies and TV shows!

Geez, without us you would all be living in countries with Japanese, German or Russian culture.

Ahhhh ...the thinking of some who can only speak one language tsk tsk

The intellectual among us enjoy cultures for many differing languages and the programs it's brings along...we also pick the best of every culture to enjoy because that's the joy of being a world traveler

Mcd French fries still gets my vote for the best tasting convenient fries around the world ...

TV programs and movies ...not all Hollywood productions were good ..some entertaining some not.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

If you don't like our culture, stop watching our movies and TV shows!

Geez, without us you would all be living in countries with Japanese, German or Russian culture.

Ahhhh ...the thinking of some who can only speak one language tsk tsk

I can speak Spanish, French, Thai and English (and forgotten German), how many languages do you speak then?

[LawrenceChee]

I speak 5 and the forum rules tells us we can't bickle so let's leave it at that enjoy your Sunday as I am enjoying some Alaska legs

[NanLaew]

Alaska has one of the most lenient gun laws of any state in the Union. Alaska allows concealed carry of a firearm without a permit. It is also one of the least populated states. It should also be kept in mind that Alaska has alot of wilderness and a lot of dangerous critters...like bears, grizzly bears, and even Polar Bears. There is a method to the madness. In Alaska you legitimately need a powerful gun for protection against bears (9mm handgun won't cut it folks). Also people in Alaska have a history with firearms. The original frontier settlers of Alaska needed guns to hunt for food, and to this day there's alot of people in Alaska that still rely on hunting in order to eat.

I grew up in North Dakota. I've been handling firearms since I was 12. That was not unusual there. I lived on 3 acres. Regularly used a .22 caliber to shoot vermin that were eating stuff from our garden. Most of the kids I grew up with, their parents had guns and took them hunting. I grew up with guns, I understand guns, and the gun traditions are very strong in the United States.

I have been on this forum a while, I have read plenty of comments about America's gun problems and most of them are made by people from the U.K. You guys just "don't get it". So let me try to explain.

This here is a map of the United States showing population density:

People from the U.K. just don't understand that the U.S. is a big country. There are very large population centers in the U.S., primarily on the coasts. But most of America is not like Los Angeles, New York, Miami, etc. Take a good look at the middle of the map (the American Midwest) and you should get the picture that alot of this area is pretty rural area where people...from the frontier days until now...still hunt. Guns are ingrained in American culture. There are so many people that have them and use them for hunting. And of course if you are a hunter (and have a rifle) you would also have other guns to round out the collection, like a handgun for protecting the house, maybe an AK-47 or AR-15 for giggles. (These are fun for plinking because these are military weapons, and you can buy surplus military ammo fairly cheaply--that is when the U.S. isn't at war, in which case the .223/5.56mm became pricey for a while; so it's not just us buying them because they look scary, it's because it is cheaper to shoot). So keep in mind that there are so many Americans who don't live in the big cities and who regularly use and have firearms, and you will realize how difficult it would be to implement the same kind of gun ban that the U.K. has.

In any event, I saw the video of the shooting. I don't have any qualms about a 9 year old firing a firearm with adult supervision. However, a full auto is a bit tricky for a child to control. And watching what the instructor did was cringeworthy to me. The girl did not have full control of the weapon. That was evident from her first shot which was not in full automatic. This was very very poor instruction. What non-Americans view as child abuse, I view as a right of passage. It's a parent spending time with their children and teaching them.

Alaska is different, I will grant you that. It's way, way bigger than the tiny and inconsequential UK. There's no other US state where the Capital isn't connected to the rest of the country by highway either. Been there, done that. Great place with great people. But a tad disingenuous and a bit condescending to compare it with Los Angeles, New York or even AZ.

The UK is just too small to have any relativity? But I could post a map of Australian population density or Russian population density or Brazilian population density... and it would have the same value as the American map of population density versus the right to bear arms for hunting argument. Not a whole lot.

The UK is way too small to have a valid opinion here. By the same token, the US is the home of the largest food producing and processing companies with the largest farms, largest food processing plants on the planet, be it grain-fed Omaha steaks or Florida oranges. I would wager that over 90% of the US population has absolutely no need to hunt for their existence. Maybe even some Innuit shop at Walmart these days. Did you need an Uzi for varmint hunting in the garden in ND?

Some other video related to this unfortunate 'industrial accident' indicated a bunch of bulldozed holes in the ground masquerading as a 'professional' shooting range. I have been on gun ranges in TX and those were very professionally built. There's a whole bunch of Texans tool up every dove season so they need good training. The 'instructor' here apparently had nothing more than a few years serving in the Army as his 'experience' as an arms instructor and it showed. The last thing he 'instructed' the girl on was her stance. Yes, that's right, "...hold it like this, point it like this and squeeze.... wait, wait, you need to stand like this. Now hold it like this..."

Shameful if anyone responsible walks away from this without acknowledging HUGE professional misconduct. Then again, the NRA lawyers have very, very deep pockets.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Scott

[submaniac]

Some other video related to this unfortunate 'industrial accident' indicated a bunch of bulldozed holes in the ground masquerading as a 'professional' shooting range. I have been on gun ranges in TX and those were very professionally built. There's a whole bunch of Texans tool up every dove season so they need good training. The 'instructor' here apparently had nothing more than a few years serving in the Army as his 'experience' as an arms instructor and it showed. The last thing he 'instructed' the girl on was her stance. Yes, that's right, "...hold it like this, point it like this and squeeze.... wait, wait, you need to stand like this. Now hold it like this..."

The people who understand guns also know that the "instruction" indicated on the video was very poor. This is not how it should have been done, and I don't think there will be alot of disagreement on that. This is an example of what not to do.

Hence it's your own mess ...we don't understand it and we don't get it

All we know is factually USA has more gun tragedies than another other country in a domestic situation ...it's the only place where gun violence continues to thrive in a first world country ...where kids go to schools not knowing if one of their whack headed classmates has decided to make a statement and shoot everyone or in a Saturday stroll on a mall

It may also explain why in all political matters ...the Americans always believe sending firearms, chemical weapons are regarded as gifts ...bombarding a country is norm and that's sad

Indeed it's ingrained in that culture only and I hope not many more would join in

Ok, let's put some perspective on this. The UK joined the EU, and per the terms of its membership in the EU, the UK waived its sovereignty and agreed that any resident of the EU could reside in the UK, and the UK no longer has control over the people it admits to its shores. In London, the British people are the minority. The UK has now upped its terror thread assessment level that it is highly likely there will be an imminent attack. There is a problem in the UK with radical Islamists, which is largely due in part to the UK's policy of letting everyone into its borders and as illustrated in this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755463-does-britain-have-a-jihadi-problem/page-11

The situation is so dire in the UK that Scotland is voting to leave the United Kingdom.

The UK has screwed up its own country so bad that you lot have lost any credibility when it comes to criticizing America. Attend to your own mess first, and after you've managed to clean it up we might listen to you.

All I know is that since 1776 there have been no coups overthrowing the U.S. government, we do not have Imams preaching that our government be overthrown in violent bloody revolution, and I can sleep warmly in my bed knowing that there's assault rifles under it, in easy reach.

(Oversized graphic edited out)

[NanLaew]

...

The situation is so dire in the UK that Scotland is voting to leave the United Kingdom.

The UK has screwed up its own country so bad that you lot have lost any credibility when it comes to criticizing America.

...

And your credibility went 'right oot the windae' with the assertion that Scotland is voting to leave the Union because of EU immigration.

Regarding the assault rifles under the bed, how can you possibly get ANY restful sleep here in Thailand.

[soalbundy]

Indeed it's ingrained in that culture only and I hope not many more would join in

If you don't like our culture, stop watching our movies and TV shows!

Geez, without us you would all be living in countries with Japanese, German or Russian culture.

would be an improvement over the American none-culture

[rebeli]

Good. All those sick people who teach children to use high powered machine guns should follow him.