Netanyahu declares 'victory' in Gaza

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory and other posts and replies deleted.

[loongdavid]

Yes, you are most likely correct, it would destroy most if not all Palestinians. BUT, history has shown they are little concerned with the now and more concerned with the hereafter. However, where does that leave Israel?

[CBR250]

You missed the point. Western countries do not support Hamas - but they are running out of patience with an Israel that constantly undermines the peace process to satisfy right-wing settlers (and win votes for more Zionist fanatics like Lieberman in the next election). The "self-defence" that slaughtered hundreds of innocent women and children as they killed off a few Hamas soldiers is also suspected by many people in western nations as another instance that Israel has sold out to fanatics. Many western nations now recognise Fatah as a voice of moderation in Palestine, but you just might see your fears fulfilled and western nations siding with Hamas one day - unless Israel gives up its war-mongering and land thefts.

as they killed off a few Hamas soldiers

And you would know that piece of information from where, exactly?

Most figures making the rounds in the media are re-hashes of various UN statements. These statements, in turn, rely on

figures supplied by the Hamas (through the Ministry of Health in Gaza) and local NGOs, which even when discounting for

possible bias, are also operating in Hamas controlled area. Most original reports (as opposed to further quoting in media

and websites supporting a side, include cautionary notes and explanations on sources). Age and gender statistics provided

with the some of the data, seem to indicate that the disproportionate representation on casualty lists of men in relevant age

groups might be indicative of Hamas attempt to hide actual numbers of militants killed. Hamas, as a rule, does not admit to

militant casualties during fighting, unless impossible to conceal.

Before you go on to denounce this post - yes, many civilians were killed, among them way too many kids. The kids are

not terrorists, combatants or militants. My comment referred specifically to the issue of Hamas militants hit.

I'll try again. Seems you have a few mates outside of Israel too.

1. Only your sources are acceptable. Sure, I already knew that. Official IDF "you can trust me" type figures. Tick.

2. Of course Hamas soldiers were killed. That surprises you? That is what happens to soldiers in a war. I am far more concerned about the 490 children, 260 women, 101 elderly who were slaughtered by the Israelis.

3. "Way too many" kids were killed. Well, you tell us how many dead children are acceptable to you. Personally, I think a good figure is "0". Obviously, we differ on this point.

[Ulysses G.]

Here is the TRUTH for those that can handle it!

People like Ilan Peppe and Gidon Levy are fifth column in Israel and they're allowed and some time

encouraged to speak tier minds even though they are hurting Israel's image and are bordering

on civil unrest incitement, and yet, they are allowed to speak freely, try that in Gaza or Egypt

or any other Arab country I dare you, you will not last a day alive, and that's the different between

Israel and the so called Arab/Muslims centuries around Israel...

It is not surprising that the usual suspects are enthralled with Ilan Pappe. This dishonest loon admits that "facts are irrelevant" to him and that his work is all about his far-left ideology:

"Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,"

The Israel-bashers love to quote a few Benny Morris paragraphs (that were taken out of context). This is what he had to say about Pappe:

"Unfortunately much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. . . . This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. . . . The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappe's historical methodology and his political proclivities . . .For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable." (New Republic, March 22, 2004)

[Thorgal]

Netanyahu can only call victory after ICC and UN investigations and verdict.

Asking US and AIPAC for support to vote against any investigation is not really celebrating a clean victory.

Israel did a PR disaster in bombing civilians on the beach, their homes, their shelters, their schools, etc.

[puck2]

If N. would brag about permanent peace, okay and praiseworthy. But claiming victory ist as stupid as "mision accomplished".

[Thorgal]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

[konying]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

Care to name any settlements in Gaza?

Or make a reference to a law where country must not control it's borders ?

[dexterm]

fair use snippet Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors-and-descendants-letter/

Should a Jew condemn a Jew their position is not made more valid because they have a star of david, terrible misfortune previously, or any other bona fides. A person's point of view is only valuable insofar as it actually meets standards of reason or other relevant value. Yet it is exactly the emotive to which they aim. They banded together to increase numbers to suggest a specific gravity regarding their point of view, and capitalize on previous, terrible, associations. This is evident. This fact alone does not constitute a valid voice, per se.

Contrary to the value some might muse this means it demonstrates to me that Jews are not a "block." They represent any similarly constituted segment of society. They have a core, peripheral points of view, some radicals, and also outliers. This is a normal constitution of society. But the singular voice being contrived for this article has no more validity to me than my own observations.

Note: Their closing summation is correct of course. However, their naivete will not achieve the goal they aim for.

The condemnation by Holocaust survivors and their descendants may not have much impact on you, but it does on me and many millions globally. It has the leverage and authority of “Experto crede”.

It also blows the old chestnut “If you criticize Israel you must be an anti Semite” clean out of the water.

[dexterm]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

Care to name any settlements in Gaza?

Or make a reference to a law where country must not control it's borders ?

What borders? It would be very interesting to know exactly where Israel's borders are? Care to tell us?

[Thorgal]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

Care to name any settlements in Gaza?

Or make a reference to a law where country must not control it's borders ?

Gaza is a Israeli 'settlement'.

99% occupied by Palestinian prisoners.

1% by Israeli Prison guards.

Does Israel have to control and prohibit Gazans for their coastal borders ?

[arjunadawn]

Israel, created by League of Nations, destroyed by Hamas and all in a matter of three generations. I think the USA and in particular the New York Jewish lobby, should rethink just where their money is going and what good it is doing. Israel is fast losing any friends it might have had and no-one wants to be on a losing side.

Hamas is not destroying Israel and insofar as that what you see, you are not penetrating the subject. Hamas represents a vast underground of muslim brotherhood and Qatari wealth- currently. It has variously represented local and far regional monies to act against Israel. So, when suggesting Hamas is destroying Israel it lacks context unless we state exactly what Hamas is- a front for regional beligerance and secondarily local aspirations. IMO, Israel is not fast losing friends. Things may be clarifying but I hardly think Israel felt they had many friends previously. If by chance you are referring to the US, the US supports Israel, it is the administration that has switched sides.

I had the momentary impression that you were indicating that because everyone wants to be on a winning side (agreed), Jews should see witch way the wind is blowing and apportion their investments in that direction as Israel no longer reasonably has a chance at survival? I think this is a fair summation of your closing point. I also think it says more about your point of view than I could possibly say in further response. Good luck with that reasoning thing!

[Steely Dan]

Israel, created by League of Nations, destroyed by Hamas and all in a matter of three generations.

Israel is thriving and Hamas just got their butts badly kicked, yet again. Delusional much?

When Hamas sets off its first tactical nuclear device (made in North Korea), in down-town Tel Aviv then I guess you'll be doing more than laughing. Then I would bet that ALL Arab nations will join forces very quickly - quite a shift really.

Ah, the faux-liberals wet dream. The fact that in such an eventuality thousands of Palestinians would likely die seems to have been forgotten. It does show the phony humanitarianism that many Israel demonizers attempt to sanitize their hatred with.

[arjunadawn]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

Care to name any settlements in Gaza?

Or make a reference to a law where country must not control it's borders ?

Gaza is a Israeli 'settlement'.

99% occupied by Palestinian prisoners.

1% by Israeli Prison guards.

Does Israel have to control and prohibit Gazans for their coastal borders ?

Exercising your analogy, "yes," Israel has to control their coastal waters otherwise the prisoners will overthrow the warden, rape the dogs, beat the guards, make free phone calls, steal commissary supplies, and act out every other savage ideological expression that is currently sweeping these regions. The last time Israel allowed the "prisoners" to control their coastal borders they had family and "friends" sending them missiles and bombs and bad things in care packages and instead of files in the cakes heavy equipment to dig tunnels.

[arjunadawn]

http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors-and-descendants-letter/

Arjunadawn

Should a Jew condemn a Jew their position is not made more valid because they have a star of david, terrible misfortune previously, or any other bona fides. A person's point of view is only valuable insofar as it actually meets standards of reason or other relevant value. Yet it is exactly the emotive to which they aim. They banded together to increase numbers to suggest a specific gravity regarding their point of view, and capitalize on previous, terrible, associations. This is evident. This fact alone does not constitute a valid voice, per se.

Contrary to the value some might muse this means it demonstrates to me that Jews are not a "block." They represent any similarly constituted segment of society. They have a core, peripheral points of view, some radicals, and also outliers. This is a normal constitution of society. But the singular voice being contrived for this article has no more validity to me than my own observations.

Note: Their closing summation is correct of course. However, their naivete will not achieve the goal they aim for.

The condemnation by Holocaust survivors and their descendants may not have much impact on

you, but it does on me and many millions globally. It has the leverage and authority of “Experto crede”.

It also blows the old chestnut “If you criticize Israel you must be an anti Semite” clean out of the water.

Arjunadawn

Yea, after re reading my post... I am correct. IMO, a Jew has no more validity than an arab, asian, caucasion, etc. I don't care if they were in WWII or Attica State Prison. Points have value insofar as there is intrinsic value associated there. If Jewish person has moral authority or opinion leader status for you, that is great. I require a higher threshold, like reason. It is not particularly incredible or shocking that a portion of any population has differing points. Why on earth would this have credibility simply because they declare? Perhaps it was after the old chestnut blew you concluded "many millions globally" share your view. Until you go out and query many millions you have no idea if that is true. You hope so. But I do not. I don't care if anyone agrees with me. Observations that inherently appeal to the emotive are always suspect first, but not valuable because of this. This is the problem with the world today- everyone thinks because they feel something it constitutes a necessary reaction or value in the material world. Emotions should be managed, not run a muck in the asylum.

And no! They do not have experto crede! That is a ridiculous leap of reason. It is circular reasoning on your part and I dare say you are unaware of it. In order for one to agree they have experto crede one must accept that there is a gazan genocide is going on- that I assume is the expert experience? That there is a gazan genocide going on or not is the point in which this body of people are speaking to, which perhaps you agree, but is in dispute by me, Israel, and others. So you cannot seek refuge in the assertion they are experts in similarly shared genocide as the local arabs when that is the very point under debate. How ludicrous. How circular. Good use of latin though. Now shake the chestnut and get some fresh air.

I cant imagine I said “If you criticize Israel you must be an anti Semite” This is so unlike me. You have it in quotes. I dont recall saying this= ever!

[Morch]

It is a victory for Hammas in one important respect. They have reestablished themselves as an important player in the Middle East, especially now that the Muslim Brotherhood etc., have been marginalized. Importantly, going forward, they have inserted themselves into any process with Israel regarding the Palestinians.

Actually this is not the case. On the regional level, Hamas definitely took a hit. It got little support from former backers, and very

little by way of effective support from Arab and Muslim countries in general. Egypt managed to leave Turkey and Katar mostly

out of the way and with its current unfavorable disposition toward Hamas, and while holding the keys to the Gaza Strip, things

aren't going to be easy for Hamas.

As far as Palestinian domestic politics go, it is still a bit early to tell. Hamas got the expected surge in support during most of the

fighting, but there were also other voices which saw its actions as futile, counterproductive and harmful for Gazans. On the same

note, it is worth mentioning that despite consistent Hamas calls for Palestinians in the West Bank to stage an uprising, relatively

little of this happened. While Abbas's position does not seem much improved at the moment, I would venture a guess that the

gains in public opinion made by Hamas are temporary. That is not to say, of course, that they are irrelevant or that their power

was diminished, far from it.

It is interesting to watch Saudi and Qatar flexing their sizable financial muscles and filling the vacuum left by the U.S. and general western disengagement in the region. And, in terms of influence in Egypt, Saudi seems to be winning with the decline of the Muslim Brotherhood. I wonder if Saudi will take an ever increasing role in broader Middle East influence, including Palestinian issues?

Regional conditions and upheavals can sure make for strange bed-mates. Saudi Arabia might not be called "moderate" in any objective way (the Saudi house brand from of Islam certainly isn't), but they have bigger worries than Israel right now, and so the enemy of my enemy etc...

If these changes could be used to jump start even a limited version of the previous Saudi Peace Initiative, things could really get interesting. This would, of course, necessitate an unlikely shift in paradigm on the Israeli right wing led government, if not an emergence of a center-left government effectively able to carry such a move through (somewhat less unlikely). Palestinian positions may remain problematic regardless, at least until a general election is called and results accepted by both Fatah and the Hamas. My guess is that the current stalemate in Palestinian domestic politics will hold, which would spell continued issues with any permanent agreement.

[Morch]

Israel, created by League of Nations, destroyed by Hamas and all in a matter of three generations.

Israel is thriving and Hamas just got their butts badly kicked, yet again. Delusional much?

When Hamas sets off its first tactical nuclear device (made in North Korea), in down-town Tel Aviv then I guess you'll be doing more than laughing. Then I would bet that ALL Arab nations will join forces very quickly - quite a shift really.

I think there is a rather remote probability of this happening. Threats of this sort been doing the rounds internationally for many years. Only places where they are a clear and present danger is on Hollywood productions. Even then, designated targets are relatively free-access cities in the West.

The likelihood of Hamas being able to secretly acquire such a device and manage its transport into the heart of Israel is not something I would place a bet on.

If anything, some of the neighboring countries would freak and go out of their way to stop this. If it can be done to Israel, not long before it becomes a threat against themselves. Furthermore, any clear indication that something of the sort is underway would give Israel pretty much a carte blanche to take whatever means to stop it, not sure that the Hamas is willing to risk that. For an organization going on about getting back the ancestral lands, it would be counterproductive to render a large part of it uninhabitable.

[dexterm]

The truth is that peace was a possibility in 1948 but Israel rejected it.

The truth is that the PALESTINIANS rejected it, declared war on Israel and LOST. Quit trying to distort historical facts.

You have a very selective memory, UG.

It’s a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?ben-gurion-laments-rejection-of-1937-peel-commission

... all because of Zionist greed. When Zionists learn to love their Jewish brothers and sisters and their children more than land, then there will be peace.

[arjunadawn]

Israel, created by League of Nations, destroyed by Hamas and all in a matter of three generations.

Israel is thriving and Hamas just got their butts badly kicked, yet again. Delusional much?

When Hamas sets off its first tactical nuclear device (made in North Korea), in down-town Tel Aviv then I guess you'll be doing more than laughing. Then I would bet that ALL Arab nations will join forces very quickly - quite a shift really.

Ah, the faux-liberals wet dream. The fact that in such an eventuality thousands of Palestinians would likely die seems to have been forgotten. It does show the phony humanitarianism that many Israel demonizers attempt to sanitize their hatred with.

Longdavid= I caution you (not about forum stuff) about such trivial use of weapons of mass destruction in analysis. What you suppose is actually not far from possibility. You know this; that is why you point it out. But then how can you do so flippantly? Jews, Arabs, Christians, visitors, etc., would suffer immeasurably. Hamas would not likely be detonating such a device in Israel, rather in Gaza, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyXS9072jCc#t=10

Lastly, you display your flippant, ill thought out use of such a device, by presuming this would unite arab armies? No! This would unite the ummah but would force nearly all states to recoil, even local arabs.

In conclusion, Longdavid, IMO, your post is provocative. Why do I think that introducing tactical nuclear devices into discussions regarding potential developments is inappropriate? Because you do so with no responsibility, and suggest others would be laughing. Your incorrect assumption how arab nations would respond is irrelevant.

[arjunadawn]

The truth is that peace was a possibility in 1948 but Israel rejected it.

The truth is that the PALESTINIANS rejected it, declared war on Israel and LOST. Quit trying to distort historical facts.

You have a very selective memory, UG.

It’s a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?ben-gurion-laments-rejection-of-1937-peel-commission

... all because of Zionist greed. When Zionists learn to love their Jewish brothers and sisters and their children more than land, then there will be peace.

Intellectually, your post is interesting, for sure. What if? However, what if people like me are correct and the arabs would have never accepted these borders over time? Why would the dynamics, upheaval, war, and tragic loss of life seen everywhere else in this region today have evolved differently to insulate and protect the tiny Israel (the defining target of scriptural animus), should they have taken the (bait) olive branch of that earlier possibility?

Reality is what it is, we both know this. Your point is curious looking over the shoulder, but I see something different from history's lessons. I see a regional people that have divine mandate to destroy every Jew on earth, irrespective of treaties or agreements (Taqiyya).

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

[Morch]

You missed the point. Western countries do not support Hamas - but they are running out of patience with an Israel that constantly undermines the peace process to satisfy right-wing settlers (and win votes for more Zionist fanatics like Lieberman in the next election). The "self-defence" that slaughtered hundreds of innocent women and children as they killed off a few Hamas soldiers is also suspected by many people in western nations as another instance that Israel has sold out to fanatics. Many western nations now recognise Fatah as a voice of moderation in Palestine, but you just might see your fears fulfilled and western nations siding with Hamas one day - unless Israel gives up its war-mongering and land thefts.

as they killed off a few Hamas soldiers

And you would know that piece of information from where, exactly?

Most figures making the rounds in the media are re-hashes of various UN statements. These statements, in turn, rely on

figures supplied by the Hamas (through the Ministry of Health in Gaza) and local NGOs, which even when discounting for

possible bias, are also operating in Hamas controlled area. Most original reports (as opposed to further quoting in media

and websites supporting a side, include cautionary notes and explanations on sources). Age and gender statistics provided

with the some of the data, seem to indicate that the disproportionate representation on casualty lists of men in relevant age

groups might be indicative of Hamas attempt to hide actual numbers of militants killed. Hamas, as a rule, does not admit to

militant casualties during fighting, unless impossible to conceal.

Before you go on to denounce this post - yes, many civilians were killed, among them way too many kids. The kids are

not terrorists, combatants or militants. My comment referred specifically to the issue of Hamas militants hit.

I'll try again. Seems you have a few mates outside of Israel too.

1. Only your sources are acceptable. Sure, I already knew that. Official IDF "you can trust me" type figures. Tick.

2. Of course Hamas soldiers were killed. That surprises you? That is what happens to soldiers in a war. I am far more concerned about the 490 children, 260 women, 101 elderly who were slaughtered by the Israelis.

3. "Way too many" kids were killed. Well, you tell us how many dead children are acceptable to you. Personally, I think a good figure is "0". Obviously, we differ on this point.

My comment on figures was general, not directed at one source or another - the same pattern was present in previous rounds of hostilities, where months afterwards, more accurate tallies were released. Rather than implying I uphold official IDF counts, something I never presumed to do, one could just acknowledge that there is a certain problem when it comes to reports on this issue.

The point I made was not that Hamas militants were killed, but that your assertion that these amounted to "a few" is one way to inflate the relative portion of civilian deaths.

Playing silly semantics game when you see fit is all very nice. I do not think that I have to indulge you, though. A pity you repeatedly cannot seem to be able to directly address any comment on your arguments without getting carried away.

[Morch]

Netanyahu can only call victory after ICC and UN investigations and verdict.

Asking US and AIPAC for support to vote against any investigation is not really celebrating a clean victory.

Israel did a PR disaster in bombing civilians on the beach, their homes, their shelters, their schools, etc.

Both sides claims of "victory" are intended for domestic consumption, not much more than that.

As the current ceasefire, it it indeed holds, is but a condition for further negotiations, it still remains to be seen what actual gains and losses were made by each side. In as much as the current ceasefire is basically what the Egyptians offered at the begining of the fighting (and which was rejected by Hamas) - it can be said that Hamas got very little it couldn't have earlier on, and at a lesser cost. As far as Israel goes, going back to the previous unofficial agreement means that the whole effort was rather futile.

There are no knockout victories at the end of these things.

[joepublic]

Here is an ad placed in the NY times by jewish holocaust survivors regarding the recent gaza conflict

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/holocaust-survivors-palestinians.html

Even Holocaust Survivors call what the Zionists are doing a Massacre.

Lets predict the response of the two main Zionist Apologists here.

"These are Self Hating, Anti Semetic, Holocaust Denier, Liberal, Tree Hugging Jews"

That's if they respond at all!

[loongdavid]

I for one am sick and tired of listening to anything "Holocaust" - GET OVER IT!.....tragic, yes, but it's done and dusted and soon to be out of living memory. It is certainly no excuse for any action that Israel may take in its name. Come to think of it, I'm sure the Palestinians would think similar thoughts.

[konying]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

Care to name any settlements in Gaza?

Or make a reference to a law where country must not control it's borders ?

What borders? It would be very interesting to know exactly where Israel's borders are? Care to tell us?

Look at the map of Israel and Gaza borders, defined very clearly , even if one struggles with the facts

[konying]

True, but as they are half of the Palestinian government, they were making any attempts at peace or compromise impossible anyway.

Because Israel refuses to stop the blokkade, the occupation and the illigal Israeli settlers.

Furthermore emprisonement of Palestinians is not acceptable under Israeli Military Law.

Palestinians are in Israeli prisons for alleged crimes commited in Gaza and or West Bank.

As long as Israel keeps this policy they will never have peace.

It's another Pyrrhic victory for Israel.

Care to name any settlements in Gaza?

Or make a reference to a law where country must not control it's borders ?

Gaza is a Israeli 'settlement'.

99% occupied by Palestinian prisoners.

1% by Israeli Prison guards.

Does Israel have to control and prohibit Gazans for their coastal borders ?

Haha, just when I thought you ran out of nonsense to post, you come up with new.

So now you saying Palestinians are Israeli settlers? Or did you forget to think before posting?

[Morch]

The truth is that peace was a possibility in 1948 but Israel rejected it.

The truth is that the PALESTINIANS rejected it, declared war on Israel and LOST. Quit trying to distort historical facts.

You have a very selective memory, UG.

It’s a pity that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?ben-gurion-laments-rejection-of-1937-peel-commission

... all because of Zionist greed. When Zionists learn to love their Jewish brothers and sisters and their children more than land, then there will be peace.

The Arab side denounced the Peel Commission and outright rejected the offer. The Jewish side did not outright accept it as well, but the position was that it could be used as base for further negotiations.

Ben Guryon's position is not surprising, nor condemning at the least - he (along with Chaim Weitzmann) was actually in favor of accepting the offer, and as such convinced the Zionist Congress to adopt a less harsh stance.

Don't let facts confuse you, though.

[arjunadawn]

Here is an ad placed in the NY times by jewish holocaust survivors regarding the recent gaza conflict

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/holocaust-survivors-palestinians.html

Even Holocaust Survivors call what the Zionists are doing a Massacre.

Lets predict the response of the two main Zionist Apologists here.

"These are Self Hating, Anti Semetic, Holocaust Denier, Liberal, Tree Hugging Jews"

That's if they respond at all!

I spend a considerable amount of time as an Israeli apologist on these pages; considerable. I have never said such a thing. In no diplomatic treatise, document, or current discourse are the Jews of Israel called "Zionists;" though they are by you (and others). Indeed, when I increasingly realize that people like you are using "zionist" it begs me to consider how vacant your points are that follow. Rarely is great depth presented, only refuge in pejoratives when statements include this refuge- "zionist."

I have made it abundantly clear I afford these survivors no more credibility than any other. It is a choice I make and while their message is contrary to my position, that is not why. I just don't see the value in assigning them some preeminent authority because they survived something horrible, and that it is equal to Gaza, and therefore valid. You see, I don't concede what is happening in the middle east is equal, therefore the authority for which their declaration rests is void in my opinion. It has nothing to do with being Jews, or not, or survivors, or not. I just don't think it is a comparable position for which authority is then granted as a subject matter expert. Does the material needed to continually represent your point of view desperately require replenishing with pejoratives or other allies?

If I went through this thread and counted my posts supporting Israel I might be near the top 2-3 people supporting Israel; maybe. Yet you throw such an incendiary statement out there that nets me into a nasty, provocative statement that I never made. Be more exact or don't throw bombs, please.

[boomerangutang]

If I was a Palestinian stuck in Gaza, I would endeavor to find ways to get along with Israel. That would enable, among other things, my fellow Palestinians could:

>>>> cross the border and find work in Israel

>>>> sell goods to Israelis

>>>> with a job, They'd be better able to purchase goods from Israelis and from the outside world.

Later, perhaps there would be developments toward Gaza getting:

>>>> a port with boats coming and going

>>>> increase fishing area

>>>> an airport

>>>> some tourists

>>>> increased investment from other countries

However, when I wake up from my little dream, I realize if I spoke out in favor of any cooperation with Israel, I would be summarily shot in a Gazan minute. Same for any Gazan who speaks about such things.

[joepublic]

Too bad Gaza cannot rebuild because construction materials have been banned for years.

That must be how they built those luxury hotels, modern shopping malls and tunnels.

Thank You UG,

Please keep posting remarks like this - it does more for the Anti Zionist cause that any amount of debate ever could.