Castrate my (lovely) biting dog?

[cheeryble]

Hi

A new dog found me early this year when I was walking my other dog.

He is a handsome devil, was skinny but now strong.

He has stuck to me and is wonderfully welcoming and nice with other dogs.

He just loves to run along with the bike and the other dog up the hills.

Trouble part is this:

He has some automatic habitual defence reaction.

If someone new approaches him fast in the wrong way he snaps back.

He has twice drawn blood quite badly.

However, we live in a private garden community of 18 houses and everyone knows about his problem.

Problem is of course there is always an exception, a visitor or whatever.

He would NEVER just attack for the sake of it if say someone was walking past.

He would never continue more than a snap.

If people are I simply neutral to him no problem.

Fact is it's a worry he really is a lovely boy who enjoys life and I feel I've saved that life he was probably dumped when he latched on to us.

My neighbour who also adores him suggests castration.

I have heard once the habit is in it's too late.

Advice please?

(Muzzle is not an option I think)

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[Halfie]

Muzzle the thing AND castrate, you're not a dog breeder.

[meatboy]

ours was the same when he came to us,after a yr.we had him neutered,the last couple of yrs.he has been an absolute gentleman with everyone except when he plays with the wife.

it only took a couple of days to heal.you will have a different dog.

[konying]

I have a similar problem , desexing did not help .

My ladyboy now has a nylon muzzle which I have to use in presence of strangers or new people

It's hard to know the reason for snapping because do not know about his childhood, so even harder to pin point and break the habit.

[cheeryble]

Thank you both.

Problem is I can't lock him in the public areas and the house plots are contiguous with no fences.

Fact is he's as good as gold never would go for anyone walking by even a stranger.

It's only if they approach him close, fast and wrong.

If I take them to the coffee shop garden up the hill he let's people walk round him lying down no problem....but I keep an eye open for anyone being too quick to touch him.

I actually don't usually sleep in that house and only appear (most days) for a while to feed them or take for a walk or bike ride.

They have lots of friends doggy and human which is nice an extended family.

But it makes muzzling or fencing in impracticable.

Not sure his age but probably over two, so probably too late.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Edited August 29, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Thank you both.

Problem is I can't lock him in the public areas and the house plots are contiguous with no fences.

Fact is he's as good as gold never would go for anyone walking by even a stranger.

It's only if they approach him close, fast and wrong.

If I take them to the coffee shop garden up the hill he let's people walk round him lying down no problem....but I keep an eye open for anyone being too quick to touch him.

I actually don't usually sleep in that house and only appear (most days) for a while to feed them or take for a walk or bike ride.

They have lots of friends doggy and human which is nice an extended family.

But it makes muzzling or fencing in impracticable.

Not sure his age but probably over two, so probably too late.

The culprit and his now best pal who I've had for years

Edited August 29, 2014 by cheeryble

[Aree Wongwanlee]

Now that I think about it, I did have a dog similar to that. It was an old dog I inherited from its previous owner who became too old to look after it. It was the perfect picture of sweetness, wagging its tail at all and sundry. The ones it didn't like, it nipped while still wagging its tail. Then I got a new puppy and found out that this was the way the old dog used to discipline the young ones.

[konying]

Thank you both.

Problem is I can't lock him in the public areas and the house plots are contiguous with no fences.

Fact is he's as good as gold never would go for anyone walking by even a stranger.

It's only if they approach him close, fast and wrong.

If I take them to the coffee shop garden up the hill he let's people walk round him lying down no problem....but I keep an eye open for anyone being too quick to touch him.

I actually don't usually sleep in that house and only appear (most days) for a while to feed them or take for a walk or bike ride.

They have lots of friends doggy and human which is nice an extended family.

But it makes muzzling or fencing in impracticable.

Not sure his age but probably over two, so probably too late.

The culprit and his now best pal who I've had for years

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1409279410.248895.jpg

Pretty much identical in my situation.

Nylon muzzle allows dog to eat and drink just restricts the ability to bite.

For sure desex him, and try the muzzle , it's only 100 baht

[cheeryble]

Thanks Konying

He can wear 24 hours including mealtimes or not?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[meatboy]

Thank you both.

Problem is I can't lock him in the public areas and the house plots are contiguous with no fences.

Fact is he's as good as gold never would go for anyone walking by even a stranger.

It's only if they approach him close, fast and wrong.

If I take them to the coffee shop garden up the hill he let's people walk round him lying down no problem....but I keep an eye open for anyone being too quick to touch him.

I actually don't usually sleep in that house and only appear (most days) for a while to feed them or take for a walk or bike ride.

They have lots of friends doggy and human which is nice an extended family.

But it makes muzzling or fencing in impracticable.

Not sure his age but probably over two, so probably too late.

The culprit and his now best pal who I've had for years

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1409279410.248895.jpg

Pretty much identical in my situation.

Nylon muzzle allows dog to eat and drink just restricts the ability to bite.

For sure desex him, and try the muzzle , it's only 100 baht

having had greyhounds for 20yrs every one used to wear a muzzle when out.i am sure a nylon muzzle of that type would be ok.even if he wouldn't take to it its only 100bht. in fact I might get one for the wife if it keeps her jaws from snapping.

her bite is worse than her bark.

Edited August 29, 2014 by meatboy

[konying]

Thanks Konying

He can wear 24 hours including mealtimes or not?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Yes no problem at all. Dog can drink and eat.

Eating a bone would not be comfortable, because muzzle does not allow for mouth to be fully open, however OK to eat biscuits or meat.

The only problem is if he was to get into a fight, he would not be able to bite back..

I also would not keep it on 24 hours, because i can only imagine it would be irritating, but use it more like a training tool or if you not around to watch him.

My boy is getting better, and i now use the muzzle as a "warning" so he knows if he does not behave i will put it on.

He does however act up if i am not around to show the muzzle.

Its a long process but might work in the long run.

If you in Pattaya, Friendship has an excellent choice of nylon muzzles, around 98 baht, but Sleeky.

I tried many different ones, but found this one to be the best.

Its made with cushion around the nose, so the muzzle does not scratch the skin or rip out the hair.

It comes in different sizes, ranging from 1-5, depending on the nose

Best, if you can, take the dog with you and try it on outside.

Looking at the pic, i say he be about size 3 or 4.

It looks like this http://www.amazon.com/Sleeky-Dog-Nylon-Fabric-Muzzle/dp/B00JGTDXJQ

[konying]

Thank you both.

Problem is I can't lock him in the public areas and the house plots are contiguous with no fences.

Fact is he's as good as gold never would go for anyone walking by even a stranger.

It's only if they approach him close, fast and wrong.

If I take them to the coffee shop garden up the hill he let's people walk round him lying down no problem....but I keep an eye open for anyone being too quick to touch him.

I actually don't usually sleep in that house and only appear (most days) for a while to feed them or take for a walk or bike ride.

They have lots of friends doggy and human which is nice an extended family.

But it makes muzzling or fencing in impracticable.

Not sure his age but probably over two, so probably too late.

The culprit and his now best pal who I've had for years

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1409279410.248895.jpg

Pretty much identical in my situation.

Nylon muzzle allows dog to eat and drink just restricts the ability to bite.

For sure desex him, and try the muzzle , it's only 100 baht

having had greyhounds for 20yrs every one used to wear a muzzle when out.i am sure a nylon muzzle of that type would be ok.even if he wouldn't take to it its only 100bht. in fact I might get one for the wife if it keeps her jaws from snapping.

her bite is worse than her bark.

Use the packing tape, its safer

[cheeryble]

Thanks Konying

He can wear 24 hours including mealtimes or not?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Yes no problem at all. Dog can drink and eat.

Eating a bone would not be comfortable, because muzzle does not allow for mouth to be fully open, however OK to eat biscuits or meat.

The only problem is if he was to get into a fight, he would not be able to bite back..

I also would not keep it on 24 hours, because i can only imagine it would be irritating, but use it more like a training tool or if you not around to watch him.

My boy is getting better, and i now use the muzzle as a "warning" so he knows if he does not behave i will put it on.

He does however act up if i am not around to show the muzzle.

Its a long process but might work in the long run.

If you in Pattaya, Friendship has an excellent choice of nylon muzzles, around 98 baht, but Sleeky.

I tried many different ones, but found this one to be the best.

Its made with cushion around the nose, so the muzzle does not scratch the skin or rip out the hair.

It comes in different sizes, ranging from 1-5, depending on the nose

Best, if you can, take the dog with you and try it on outside.

Looking at the pic, i say he be about size 3 or 4.

It looks like this http://www.amazon.com/Sleeky-Dog-Nylon-Fabric-Muzzle/dp/B00JGTDXJQ

Hi

thanks Konying.

This subject has come up again someone in our communal garden is asking that someone take responsibility for the dog.

I have to admit I'm a little nervous my other dog certainly goes to the coffee morning at our garden looking for treats and I dare say the bad boy does too.

(Trouble is as I said he really is a lovely dog).

So I thought of the permanent muzzle again and looked at the Amazon ad you kindly posted.

I notice it actually says

ALLOWS DRINKING PANTING AND VOMITING

but doesn't mention eating.

THoughts?

Edited January 11, 2015 by cheeryble

[Nienke]

First of all, I doubt castrating your dog will solve the snapping problem, but it sure will help reducing the unwanted litters he helps putting into this world. So, from that point of view, please, give him the snip-snip (if it isn't done already)

Second: from what you write it gives me the impression your dog feels highly uncomfortable with people coming suddenly too close too fast, making him react and the reaction is fear-based. If that is the case, then with proper counter-conditioning and desensitization techniques the problem can be solved.
Traditional based training techniques, that is trying to correct the dog's aggressive reaction with aversive methods, may also add to the fear, and increase rather than decrease the problem.

Muzzling the dog will not change the dog's feelings (fear) towards these fast approaching scary creatures and, in fact, can add to his fear, as he can't defend himself anymore.

But, in case you insist on buying a muzzle and refrain on re-habbing the dog, a nylon muzzle will prevent the dog from normal panting. The dog may then get over-heated and die because of that. And ... the dog can still bite with it's inscissors, the only problem then is that the muzzle will prevent the dog from opening the mouth far enough so that the person can get his/her piece of flesh back without being ripped of. Nylon muzzles: https://www.google.co.th/search?q=dog+nylon+muzzle&rlz=1C1AISC_enTH529TH529&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=635&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Ri-yVNKtGtKdugTk0IDoBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

A dog with a proper fitting basket muzzle, however, can take treats, drink and properly pant. But, still it is advisable to take it of each time the dog is in the house or confined garden, or the muzzle may irritated and damage the skin with prolonged use.
Basket muzzles: https://www.google.co.th/search?q=dog+nylon+muzzle&rlz=1C1AISC_enTH529TH529&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=635&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Ri-yVNKtGtKdugTk0IDoBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=dog+basket+muzzles

[cheeryble]

Thanks Nienke!

Fact is it has to be a permanent muzzle or not at all.

I come by to feed them and the fish, but am mostly elsewhere. (They have plenty of human and dog friends here).

It sounds like a long work, the desensitisation.....and wonder how reliable.

The other dog I spent quite a lot on in the past for repair work after fights (and castration).

I'm not made of money, and I realise it's a real issue this biting....it could just possible be bad and or a child.

Fact is the dog is potentially dangerous and shouldn't really be free to roam lovely as he is.

(I just got back from a walk with them and he was very benign and uncle-like towards three young dogs who sprung out.)

I guess I just can't let a dog who's become healthy looking and happy now be put down.

I can't even step in an insect.

The great solution would be for him to live in a private house and garden he looks strong would certainly keep intruders out.

Has a cute way of pushing through people's legs and shoving them affectionately..

Edited January 11, 2015 by cheeryble

[Nienke]

Okay, summarized you wrote in your OP:

He is good with other dogs and with people he knows, passers-by, and those who ignore him and respect his space.

But .... when "someone new approaches him fast in the wrong way he snaps back"

However:
"He would NEVER just attack for the sake of it if say someone was walking past.
He would never continue more than a snap.
If people are I simply neutral to him no problem."

Now, first read this great article written by Dr. Sophia Yin (may she Rest in Peace)

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/preventing-dog-bites-by-learning-to-greet-dogs-properly

Does this apply to your dog? And if so, then who's the real aggressor: the dog or the (fast) approaching person who forces his or her affection on this dog, who doesn't even know the person?

[cheeryble]

Now, first read this great article written by Dr. Sophia Yin (may she Rest in Peace)

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/preventing-dog-bites-by-learning-to-greet-dogs-properly

Does this apply to your dog? And if so, then who's the real aggressor: the dog or the (fast) approaching person who forces his or her affection on this dog, who doesn't even know the person?

It's just as the blog suggests Nienke....he is hypersensitive to overfamiliar approaches.

I think it's highly likely he's been mistreated.

He once did this to a young girl in the garden who actually liked him a lot and approached him very fast and...worst....from a high angle. The father went truly ape started chasing him round with a 3x2 would have killed him on the spot. (Happily the dog didn't get close to a bite and he was kinda retreating as he "attacked" whilst she was moving forward fast.)

I wanted to ask the man how he could blame the dog for simply reacting according to his genetic predisposition and conditioning, when this was exactly what he the man did in response......except the man presumably is more culpable as he had the ability to consider.

But yes a father must protect his child (though that almost grown up child certainly knows now)

The fact is safety for all needs to be sought.

Edited January 11, 2015 by cheeryble

[Nienke]

A father or any adult should protect their children by teaching their children how to properly approach dogs and that not all dogs like to be approached or to be petted. Just like not all kids, and adults, are comfortable to be touched by just anyone, and every human has their own personal space. (as all can be read in the article above-mentioned) Every dog, like every human, has their own little black box from which they react.
I've known fathers who thought it was perfectly normal when their children ran straight up to each dog and even put their arms around the dog's neck. And it would be the dog's fault if the dog would react. How completely irresponsible is that?!

When a child still does approach in an inappropriate way, the responsible adult/s should kick their own ass, and make a mental note to (very) quickly teach their child the do's and don'ts when interacting with dogs (or any other animal for that matter).

In the case of this particular dog, muzzling him permanently is close to cruel, IMHO. I understand the safety factor, and muzzling the dog at certain times may be appropriate, just not always.
In situations as the garden-episode, maybe keep the dog away from the people, if possible. Or, yes muzzle the dog.
The thing with only muzzling the dog, the dog will not learn the desired behavior. On the contrary, the dog may become even more and faster reactive over-time, because with a muzzle the dog may feel more tense as his defense system as been shut-down. Plus, each time a person approaches in an inappropriate way the dog's anxious feeling will be confirmed and his reactive behavior reinforced.

It seems that during the garden episode the dog has been allowed in your garden, and therefore half-half you have already accepted the dog is yours (please go for the 100% ) Therefore, I still feel cc/dc is the way to go.

A last thing what you can do, but it needs some promotion, is to put a yellow ribbon around the dog's neck. It's an upcoming worldly event (thingy???) where the yellow ribbon means "this dog feels uncomfortable with people and/or dogs, and can over-react when pushed over threshold". In other words, it's a clear-visible warning ribbon to leave the dog alone.
But, as said, this needs promotion, maybe as small billboards at the entrance and club-house of the mooban and at the gate of your house, and it needs some management.

[konying]

Thanks Konying

He can wear 24 hours including mealtimes or not?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Yes no problem at all. Dog can drink and eat.

Eating a bone would not be comfortable, because muzzle does not allow for mouth to be fully open, however OK to eat biscuits or meat.

The only problem is if he was to get into a fight, he would not be able to bite back..

I also would not keep it on 24 hours, because i can only imagine it would be irritating, but use it more like a training tool or if you not around to watch him.

My boy is getting better, and i now use the muzzle as a "warning" so he knows if he does not behave i will put it on.

He does however act up if i am not around to show the muzzle.

Its a long process but might work in the long run.

If you in Pattaya, Friendship has an excellent choice of nylon muzzles, around 98 baht, but Sleeky.

I tried many different ones, but found this one to be the best.

Its made with cushion around the nose, so the muzzle does not scratch the skin or rip out the hair.

It comes in different sizes, ranging from 1-5, depending on the nose

Best, if you can, take the dog with you and try it on outside.

Looking at the pic, i say he be about size 3 or 4.

It looks like this http://www.amazon.com/Sleeky-Dog-Nylon-Fabric-Muzzle/dp/B00JGTDXJQ

Hi

thanks Konying.

This subject has come up again someone in our communal garden is asking that someone take responsibility for the dog.

I have to admit I'm a little nervous my other dog certainly goes to the coffee morning at our garden looking for treats and I dare say the bad boy does too.

(Trouble is as I said he really is a lovely dog).

So I thought of the permanent muzzle again and looked at the Amazon ad you kindly posted.

I notice it actually says

ALLOWS DRINKING PANTING AND VOMITING

but doesn't mention eating.

THoughts?

Not big portions but no problem eating biscuits , snacks

[Keesters]

Sounds that this dog is a time bomb ready to go off. No dog, dangerous or otherwise, should be allowed to be in an area accessible to the general public. Don't muzzle the dog put it somewhere where it cannot do any harm to a human. As its owner you will be responsible for any damage it causes. Do you want to be responsible for when it bites the face off some poor kid as has happened just recently in Koh Chang?

[cheeryble]

Don't muzzle the dog put it somewhere where it cannot do any harm to a human.

If you're offering your garden I accept!

Actually you would really love him he's a very warm hearted dog you never got a welcome home like it.

[Keesters]

Don't muzzle the dog put it somewhere where it cannot do any harm to a human.

If you're offering your garden I accept!

Actually you would really love him he's a very warm hearted dog you never got a welcome home like it.

I'm afraid my garden is not possible. Already have a dog and a cat and cannot really accept any more pets. As to a welcome home all my dogs over 30 years have welcomed me with wagging tales but never a bark that could annoy neighbors.

[cheeryble]

If anyone could love him he doesn't bark, but speaks very well.

Has a habit of pushing you and squeezing between your legs from behind to get his head stroked.

Edited January 19, 2015 by cheeryble