Should children living here have a yearly flu vaccine?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Seriously, your saying that keeping your family healthy and preventing them from getting really sick is something you don't want them to have.

What a ridiculous post!

Explain why.

Many vaccinations are counter-productive in a healthy population, some are dangerous, some are vital.

Worldwide

To vaccinate someone who is well fed and generally healthy against an illness which mutates often, and has little chance of doing serious damage is pointless (if not abusive).

Thailand

Stating that not giving your children a flu vaccination of unknown effectiveness, possibly out of date, and possibly banned in the western world, is "keeping your family healthy", is highly questionable at best.

[Jockey]

First of all, you should know that the flu vaccine is based on "educated" guessing, not good science. In addition, these flu shots are created by mixing various flu virus strains (toxic germs) with formaldehyde, MSG, sodium chloride and mercury. And, here's the kicker, these deadly vaccines are not even adequately tested for effectiveness by government health agencies. How irresponsible can you get?

The flu vaccine can cause brain inflammation; neurological disorders; life-threatening allergies; and even death! Especially in chemically-sensitive children or immune-compromised individuals - the flu shot is dangerous.

How deadly is the flu vaccine? (you won't believe your eyes)

There are several varieties of the flu vaccine available today. Although each vaccine can contain different ingredients - here's a list of the many possible toxic additives:

•Egg protein - many people are highly allergic to eggs.

•Formaldehyde - The United States Environmental Protection Agency has declared formaldehyde carcinogen. That means it can cause cancer. Need I say more?

•Polysorbate 80 - has been shown to cause infertility in mice. Could this ingredient be causing infertility in humans?

•Sodium Chloride - is another great ingredient if you're interested in developing kidney stones; gastrointestinal problems or hypertension.

•Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) - can cause a wide variety of health problems including, migraines, nausea, drowsiness, heart palpitation, hair loss, asthma, and rapidly increasing diabetes. Is this ingredient really necessary to avoid the flu?!

•Potassium phosphate - a soluble salt which is used as a fertilizer can cause headaches, dizziness, thirst, mental confusion, seizures, heaviness of the legs, muscle cramps, numbness and tingling. If you want to mess up your nervous system - go get a flu shot.

•Thimerosal - a form of ethylmercury which is far more toxic than methylmercury because it crosses the blood-brain barrier quicker and converts to inorganic mercury. Excuse me, I'm just curious, is it really necessary to damage the brain to prevent the flu?

Polyoxidonium - a synthetic polymer that can cause cellular inflammation and apoptosis (cell death). Now, thanks to the flu vaccine, we can kill healthy cells without any guarantee of flu protection from these deadly vaccines.

•Squalene - an oil based adjuvant that has never been approved by the United States government. This nasty additive can cause blindness, autoimmune dysfunction and inhibit sperm production.

Natural ways to prevent the flu and avoid toxic chemicals

Ideally, you want a strong immune system to protect yourself from the flu. In most cases, there will be no need to run out and get a flu shot - if you follow these basic rules:

1. Wash your hands as often as possible - especially if exposed to sick people or public areas.

2. Stay well hydrated with plenty of fresh, pure water. About half your body weight, in ounces, per day.

3. Get plenty of rest - especially if feeling run down. There's nothing like a good night's sleep.

4. Stay physically active - don't let the winter season slow you down. Exercise as often as possible.

5. Eat organic, plant-based foods as much as possible. Delicious, nutritious food is great for the immune system.

6. Take supplements - like vitamin D3. Naturally, get tested and if you're too low - get your numbers up! A qualified, naturopathic physician should be able to help you with proper supplementation.

7. Consume probiotics - a healthy gut equals a strong immune system. Try eating sauerkraut, miso, tempeh or coconut kefir.

8. Use essential oils - They smell great and have antibacterial agents.

9. Got omega-3's? I highly recommend marine phytoplankton as a good source. But you can eat walnuts; flax seeds and chia seeds. It's all good.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/039284_flu_vaccine_natural_solutions_warning.html#ixzz3CEsWkNPo

[harrry]

As above.

But if your children are under the age of 12 they can get this through the public system for free, no need to pay for it.

That the government has decided to provide it free of charge to specific high risk (of which school children are one) should tell you something about its value/importance.

BTW it protects not only your kids but also helps protect the rest of the family. Bugs pass through schools like lightening and school children are often the portal through which a whole family gets infected. Of course, you might still pick up the flu fro elsewhere, but you are very likely to get it if your kids do.

My only complaint about the flu vaccination at Thai Hospital was they refused to give it to me even when I was paying and the specialist at the hospital had ordered it, Said it was just for Thais, The flu vax at the private hospital was 11 months old so was last years not the current one,

[attrayant]

Many vaccinations are counter-productive in a healthy population, some are dangerous, some are vital.

None are dangerous, especially when the alternative is catching a deadly disease.

To vaccinate someone who is well fed and generally healthy against an illness which mutates often, and has little chance of doing serious damage is pointless (if not abusive).

The poster you quoted (and accused of being "ridiculous") made NONE of the qualifications that you have just ascribed to him. And we don't vaccinate against mutated forms of pathogens unless the vaccine is proven to be effective against them.

And you seem to have glazed over my post about herd immunity resulting in ZERO infant varicella deaths from 2004 to 2007. Acknowledging this fact, and then stating that there is no reason for healthy adults to be vaccinated is just being willfully ignorant.

[attrayant]

Stating that not giving your children a flu vaccination of unknown effectiveness,

The efficacy rates of vaccines is known.

possibly out of date

Here's another case of you introducing a qualification ("expired") that did not exist in the post you quoted. But regardless, I'll play your game: Expired medications, vaccines, food or grocery coupons should not be given to anybody.

and possibly banned in the western world

Who are you arguing with here? Nobody has made this point. If a vaccine is banned or otherwise not approved for use, it shouldn't be used. But we're not talking about black market, untested or experimental drugs in this thread, so why bring it up?

[attrayant]

First of all, you should know that the flu vaccine is based on "educated" guessing, not good science. In addition, these flu shots are created by mixing various flu virus strains (toxic germs) with formaldehyde, MSG, sodium chloride and mercury. And, here's the kicker, these deadly vaccines are not even adequately tested for effectiveness by government health agencies. How irresponsible can you get?

Great post on how to spam a message board. In case anyone else wants to copy your shining example:

1. Go to any crank science or junk "medical" site. Natural News - an ad machine full of crazy ramblings and outright lies, is a perfect example.

2. Press CTRL+A on your keyboard to highlight all the text on the page.

3. Go to Thai Visa and press CTRL+V to paste the entire contents into your reply.

4. Hit "add reply".

It's as easy as that! Just like throwing feces into a fan.

[kelly404]

Seriously, your saying that keeping your family healthy and preventing them from getting really sick is something you don't want them to have.

What a ridiculous post!

Explain why.

Because it is the opposite of my stance, if the health of your family is of prime concern, as it should be, you owe it to them to make an effort, and do some research. Then make an informed decision and not just believe everything you are told on the idiot box.

Does it not concern you at all that the vaccines you inject into your child were possibly produced by a company responsible for placing profit over safety and deliberately infecting several thousand children with aids? You see, that kind of thing does bother me.

Rather put your faith in a healthy immune system boosting diet and live a healthy lifestyle. Of course if you're one for junk food, and unhealthy drinks, and you're irresponsible enough to give this crap to your kids you don't really need to worry about the vaccines, the diet alone will probably ensure a life beset by illness and early death.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Stating that not giving your children a flu vaccination of unknown effectiveness,

The efficacy rates of vaccines is known.

possibly out of date

Here's another case of you introducing a qualification ("expired") that did not exist in the post you quoted. But regardless, I'll play your game: Expired medications, vaccines, food or grocery coupons should not be given to anybody.

and possibly banned in the western world

Who are you arguing with here? Nobody has made this point. If a vaccine is banned or otherwise not approved for use, it shouldn't be used. But we're not talking about black market, untested or experimental drugs in this thread, so why bring it up?

Well actually we are, the banned vaccine in the west (last year) was subsequently sold to Thailand among other countries.

It's standard practice for the USA to sell out of date and defective pharmaceutical products to undeveloped countries.

A good chance you (or your children) would be injected with that banned vaccine if you were to have it injected in Thailand.

Anyway, I'm happy for you that you trust your government, and it's pharmaceutical companies, because I don't trust mine.

And I especially don't trust them not to sell a faulty, and possibly dangerous, products to what they consider an inconsequential country.

Edited September 3, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[attrayant]

Well actually we are, the banned vaccine in the west (last year) was subsequently sold to Thailand among other countries.

I'd like to see a citation for that. I tried searching for "banned vaccine sent to thailand" but nothing came up except for the usual blogs and junk science sites.

It's standard practice for the USA to sell out of date and defective pharmaceutical products to undeveloped countries.

Again: cite? Since you said it's standard policy, I'd like to see something from the government that says "It's our policy to do this".

[attrayant]

Because it is the opposite of my stance, if the health of your family is of prime concern, as it should be, you owe it to them to make an effort, and do some research. Then make an informed decision and not just believe everything you are told on the idiot box.

I do research. I read the published papers and peer-reviewed literature. What I don't accept is the junk spewed forth by Mike Adams and Mercola from the sites you refer to as being on the "idiot box". But I don't see you lambasting anybody who quotes those sites.

Does it not concern you at all that the vaccines you inject into your child were possibly produced by a company responsible for placing profit over safety

As long as the vaccine works, no. How much money a company makes has no bearing on the safety of efficacy of a drug. Should we be more afraid of a Rolls Royce than a Honda Civic? No for the same reason: the safety of vehicles is tied to a benchmark that has nothing to do with how much money a company makes.

and deliberately infecting several thousand children with aids?

If you're going to spout conspiracies, at least be kind enough to link to them. I've never heard of this one and a search turned up nothing.

Rather put your faith in a healthy immune system boosting diet and live a healthy lifestyle.

I don't put "faith" in anything. I accept that the scientific method is sound and I accept its results. If you're relying on faith to stay free from infectious disease, good luck if ebola ever comes knocking at your door.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Off Topic,

I was involved in a vaccine damage case, Whooping cough vaccine.

Family had a baby, had whooping cough vaccine, baby failed to grow up, essentially all mental development halted at sitting up stage.

Family had another baby, dad though no whooping cough this time, baby age 4 caught whooping cough, recovered, but it took a long time, normal teen now.

Family had a 3rd baby, dad though maybe I'll have the whooping cough vaccine, baby failed to grow up, development halted at sitting up stage AGAIN.

Lots of legal action, nobody accepted blame, family provided with free house and money for life, or until the 2 damaged babies die.

No liability admitted by anyone. Coincidence is a funny thing.

[fantom]

Off Topic,

I was involved in a vaccine damage case, Whooping cough vaccine.

Family had a baby, had whooping cough vaccine, baby failed to grow up, essentially all mental development halted at sitting up stage.

Family had another baby, dad though no whooping cough this time, baby age 4 caught whooping cough, recovered, but it took a long time, normal teen now.

Family had a 3rd baby, dad though maybe I'll have the whooping cough vaccine, baby failed to grow up, development halted at sitting up stage AGAIN.

Lots of legal action, nobody accepted blame, family provided with free house and money for life, or until the 2 damaged babies die.

No liability admitted by anyone. Coincidence is a funny thing.

co

correlation does not imply causation

[attrayant]

A sad story to be sure. Unfortunately when these kinds of stories are introduced into contentious debates, they tend to inject a lot of emotion and the next thing we know, politicians start making stupid decisions based on emotional pleading instead of sound science. So what are we meant to learn from this (he said rhetorically)?

Some would use this anecdote as a reason to get rid of the vaccine. If we do that, we'll be back in the early 1900s when nine thousand children died every year from pertussis. So even if such a sad occurrence happens a thousand time a year, every year, we're still nine times better off with the vaccine than without. But thankfully, the adverse reactions to the pertussis vaccine aren't anywhere near that bad. Here they are:

DTaP vaccine side-effects

(Diphtheria, Tetanus, and acellular Pertussis)

What are the risks from DTaP vaccine?

Getting diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis disease is much riskier than getting DTaP vaccine.

However, a vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. The risk of DTaP vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.

Mild Problems (Common)

• Fever (up to about 1 child in 4)
• Redness or swelling where the shot was given (up to about 1 child in 4)
• Soreness or tenderness where the shot was given (up to about 1 child in 4)

These problems occur more often after the 4th and 5th doses of the DTaP series than after earlier doses.

Sometimes the 4th or 5th dose of DTaP vaccine is followed by swelling of the entire arm or leg in which the shot was given, for 1 to 7 days (up to about 1 child in 30).

Other mild problems include:

• Fussiness (up to about 1 child in 3)
• Tiredness or poor appetite (up to about 1 child in 10)
• Vomiting (up to about 1 child in 50)

These problems generally occur 1 to 3 days after the shot.

Moderate Problems (Uncommon)

• Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)
• Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more (up to about 1 child out of 1,000)
• High fever, 105 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (about 1 child out of 16,000)

Severe Problems (Very Rare)

Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:

• Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
• Permanent brain damage.

These are so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine.

[h90]

Off Topic,

I was involved in a vaccine damage case, Whooping cough vaccine.

Family had a baby, had whooping cough vaccine, baby failed to grow up, essentially all mental development halted at sitting up stage.

Family had another baby, dad though no whooping cough this time, baby age 4 caught whooping cough, recovered, but it took a long time, normal teen now.

Family had a 3rd baby, dad though maybe I'll have the whooping cough vaccine, baby failed to grow up, development halted at sitting up stage AGAIN.

Lots of legal action, nobody accepted blame, family provided with free house and money for life, or until the 2 damaged babies die.

No liability admitted by anyone. Coincidence is a funny thing.

I had the vaccine for tick-borne encephalitis. I never took the "refreshing vaccination" (if that is the correct English word) and a long time (a decade or two) after I made a blood test and they also checked the antibodies for it.

On the results I got "above the scale, please call the lab. There they connected me to the leading Doc. She told everyone is reacting different to vaccination, I reacted very extreme. I will surely never need any refreshment, but maybe should check again in 10 years.

Later I learned that there were some big problems with this vaccine. So some reacted even more unusual than I. But the government thought that the small risk of vaccination problem is worth it to prevent the big risk of infection.

Very true for a farmer.

Very wrong for a kid in down town who never leaves the concrete....And there was a lot promotion. Telling the parents that they risk the life of their kids if they don't get them vaccinated.....Kids who never get in contact with nature.

[Sheryl]

Pages of nonsnse have been posted here...dangerous nonsense in many cases. The flu vaccine in Thailand protects against multiple strains of flu. It does not contain the various harmful things mentioned. The risks of side effects from the vaccine are statistically much less than the risks of going without it.

vaccines are not part of some big conspiracy to make people ill and any further nonsense posts to that effect will be deleted.

[Lazy Sod]

Anyone know when is the updated vaccine (for winter 2014) will be available in Thailand?

[attrayant]

But the government thought that the small risk of vaccination problem is worth it to prevent the big risk of infection.

Very true for a farmer.

Very wrong for a kid in down town who never leaves the concrete....And there was a lot promotion. Telling the parents that they risk the life of their kids if they don't get them vaccinated.....Kids who never get in contact with nature.

While that may have been the case 50 years ago, it's no longer a safe assumption today. Nowadays that farmer can get on a plane and be in the big city in less than an hour. It happened less than a month ago:

Ebola claims first victim outside of Africa

Short version: Saudi man flew to Sierra Leone for a quick bite of ebola and flew back home. Thanks to the short incubation period, the man fell ill soon enough that his situation was realized and further infections were prevented. Next time we might not be so lucky.

Edited September 3, 2014 by attrayant

[Snowbuddy]

Do the flu vaccines in Thailand contain Thimerosal (Mercury) or Aluminium Hydroxide, the same as the Flu Vaccines in USA, Australia, England and New Zealand?

[Sheryl]

Thimerosol hss not used in vaccines in either Thailand or the West and has not beem for quite some years.

It was never shown to be harmful in the trace amounts used but due to concernd stirred up by anti-vaccine lobby, the manufacturers decided to stop using it. Which has not stopped conspiracy theorists et al from dredging up outdated references on the web.

[kelly404]

Thimerosol hss not used in vaccines in either Thailand or the West and has not beem for quite some years.

It was never shown to be harmful in the trace amounts used but due to concernd stirred up by anti-vaccine lobby, the manufacturers decided to stop using it. Which has not stopped conspiracy theorists et al from dredging up outdated references on the web.

You are incorrect.

According to the CDC:

Thimerosal and 2013-2014 Seasonal Flu Vaccines

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

and you decide which posts get deleted? You decide what is 'conspiracy theory' and what is fact? I think I must be in the wrong forum.

Your spellings not that good either,

[Scott]

Asia is sort of ground zero for the flu, with many strains originating in the area, especially China. I've been through several big outbreaks in Thailand and for school aged children it can be quite bad. During two of those outbreaks the entire school had to be closed, interrupting the education of the students.

We also have had numerous teachers get sick. The flu can go through a school like a wildfire. Children are excellent hosts for viruses and schools are usually not much more than a giant incubator.

Your wife was wise to have your child vaccinated and you can rest assured that the 1,000 baht was likely saved in the cost of treating the flu.

If your child is in school, please get them vaccinated.

[attrayant]

The thimerosal canard is often raised by antivax wingnuts who still insist that thimerosal = autism. These discussions often get bogged-down in the autism tar pit, so that may have been what Sheryl was thinking of. Children's immunizations have not carried that preservative in over a decade.

By the way, since you went to the CDC web site did you bother reading the rest of the page?

Is thimerosal in vaccines safe?

Yes. There is a large body of scientific evidence on the safety of thimerosal. Data from several studies show the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines do not cause harm, and are only associated with minor local injection site reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.

Three U.S. health agencies (The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH)) have reviewed the published research on thimerosal and found it to be a safe product to use in vaccines. Three independent organizations [The National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)] reviewed the published research and also found thimerosal to be a safe product to use in vaccines. The medical community supports the use of thimerosal in influenza vaccines to protect against potential bacterial contamination of multi-dose vials.

Just to sum up, that's six dispassionate professional agencies and the medical community.

[Snowbuddy]

Then if this true, that Thimerosal (mercury) used in the Flu vaccines, this would account for the very high level of Autism in children, after they received the flu vaccine in USA, I believe the ratio is 1 in 91.

So why would a Mummy or Daddy, want to have their child injected with a known Neuro-Toxin?

[attrayant]

Oh great. Mike Adams himself has joined the thread.

If you already knew the answer, why did you bother asking the question in post #78?

[Sheryl]

Then if this true, that Thimerosal (mercury) used in the Flu vaccines, this would account for the very high level of Autism in children, after they received the flu vaccine in USA, I believe the ratio is 1 in 91.

So why would a Mummy or Daddy, want to have their child injected with a known Neuro-Toxin?

There has never been a claim for linkage between flu vaccine and autism. The claims centered around the routine early childhood vaccines , especially the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine given at age 1 year which is anout the age at which autism is first diagnosed.

extensive studies including gold standard control studies have conclusively shown no link between vaccination and autism. Rates are the same in unvaccinated children. Autism tends to first become apparent at the same age the MMR vaccine is given so understandable that parents desperate for answers would link the two things but it is not the case.

and thimerosol in low amts is not known neurotoxin. And rates of autism have not fsllen since its removal from pediatric vaccines. Nor since the decline in immunization rates due to scare mongering.

scare mongering about vaccines have led to declines in coverage and resurgence of outbreaks of diseases that had largely didappeared. Children have died and others have suffered permanent damage as a result.

[attrayant]

Please stop posting bald-faced lies.

From the Gardasil (Human Papillomavirus Vaccine) Questions and Answers page:

Does Gardasil contain thimerosal?

No. Gardasil does not contain thimerosal or any other preservative.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm096052.htm

[AnotherOneAmerican]

The thimerosal canard is often raised by antivax wingnuts who still insist that thimerosal = autism. These discussions often get bogged-down in the autism tar pit, so that may have been what Sheryl was thinking of. Children's immunizations have not carried that preservative in over a decade.

By the way, since you went to the CDC web site did you bother reading the rest of the page?

So what are you claiming, no thimerosal in child vaccinations, or there is and it's not harmful?

I did read the page, but it appears you didn't (or your comprehension skills are low),

The CDC site clearly states value packs of vaccine (used on children) contain the stuff.

And which packs are mass immunizations at schools and hospitals gonna use? the value packs of course.

Edited September 4, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[craigt3365]

A few off topic posts and posts violating forum rules have been removed from view:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[shanahan]

A conclusive decision from reading this thread may be impossible for anyone undecided about whether to vaccinate or not.

The pro vaccination group will try to scare people into it and the anti vaccination group will try to scare them out of it. Each group genuinely believe they are right, but obviously one of the groups is wrong. The argument won't be won here.

<snip. please don't discuss moderation in public. It's against forum rules. >

[harrry]

Anyone know when is the updated vaccine (for winter 2014) will be available in Thailand?

I think the vaccine at a large government hospital will be the new one based largely on last Australian winter statistics combined with local needs.

If you get it at a private hospital or a clinic with lower turnover check carefully. A large private hospital here tried to sell me vaccine manufactured 11 months prior and advised me he had large stocks and they had to be used before he could get more. My guess is that the next month when close to official expiry date they end up in local surgery clinics.;

Edited September 4, 2014 by harrry