The Expat Divide...

[JLCrab]

Good for you. I got half-way through post #1 and I was already weary.

[Expat Brad]

I like the divide, and keep mostly to myself. This in no way stops me from saying hello, being sociable, and having an impromptu chat with a perfect stranger and his wife.

I think similarly here. To be honest the only bad attitude that I have found here in the last 5 years for me has been with falang's. The classic example is heaven forbid I made eye contact with another........they then act as if you're not there or just give a cold blank stare as to say xxxx you. It's almost to me like they see you as some kind of social threat or maybe as on my last trip back to Australia in fact that was the normal reaction to a person that catches eye contact with another. OMG that's why I live here...........a smile goes a long way!!!

[Expat Brad]

I have a pet peeve about expats, those who have lived here for five years or more and speak a total of 100 words using poor grammar. These tend to be but not exclusively the same people who say; "they come here to my country and can't speak any English"

yes right, I learnt an additional two languages plus a difficult dialect in my youth, no problem. I went to a foreign country and learnt. At the age of 66 after three years of work I am beginning to understand how the Thai alphabet works and have a vocab of about five hundred words, mostly to do with plants and animals. With respect I find your peeve is a bit arrogant if you don't mind me bloody well SAYING SO.

Hey, PJcm! Why would you have a "pet" peeve about another expat, who doesn't impact the reality of your expat life (in the Land of Smiles), to begin with? Huh . I am probably beyond this point, but I believe in letting my money, do my talking for me, especially in Thailand. I definitely enjoy the life that I have made for myself in Thailand, but I do not delude myself into believing that a real (western-style) 50/50 relationship, with any Thai person (wife included), will ever be achievable. You (together w/ any children you may foolishly produce, w/ a Thai woman) will always be the "farang(s)", in the eyes of the Thai/Sino-Thai people. Even if you learned spoke fluent Thai (for some unfathomable) reason, you will always be nothing more, than a "tolerated" guest in Thailand, as long as you keep your ATM card, sufficiently topped-up, w/ "farang" cash available! Just the facts. Absolutely, enjoy your expat life in Thailand, but live the reality, not the "smoke & mirrors" presented fantasy. Cheers.

Sorry but <deleted> a real 50/50 western style relationship. After my divorce settlement in Australia it was more like 85/15 plus child support & contents of the house. My Thai wife of now 4 years asks for very little financially from me in fact I am the one that over spends. She does everything in the house & I don't have to lift a finger unlike my ex wife who was the laziest creature to ever work this earth. So maybe you need to blow the smoke away from your eyes because you can't see.

[Expat Brad]

Been here eleven years from the USA. I consider myself as outgoing and a friendly person. But I don't have many friends. I put this down to my age (72) and having essentially quit drinking and whoring. These are boring pastimes to me after eleven years. Everyone I meet at least gets a nod if not a 'hello'. I will engage in conversation with just about anyone but don't find many conversations lead to a friendship. I have given up offering advice unless asked. Even then I know that most will not listen anyway. That bar they want to invest in will be a winner and the bar girl girlfriend is not like all the rest. OK, fine. Experience is the best teacher. I have plenty of experience! I am semi retired with a wonderful part time job to supplement my modest pension. My need for social interaction is largely met through my job and my lady friend. I get along great with my neighbors both Thai and expats. I have a lovely thai girlfriend who is closer to my age than not. 53. I feel the 'expat divide' as I usually have not the same interests as the people I meet. Sometimes it is the language barrier, the culture barrier or the age difference but mostly it is lack of similar interests. My only regret is not learning the Thai language better. I can get by but I consider it a failing. Otherwise I have never been happier than I am in Thailand even though I have few expat friends and don't necessarily want or need any.

I am 51 and have now been in Thailand for the last 5 years.........best thing that I've ever done. I feel cranky with myself for not speaking more Thai than I do but I find it very difficult to retain & dealing with the tones aaarrgh, it just comes out wrong. On the up side of that is that when socialising, mostly with Thais I can just quietly sit, drink my beer & not have to be part of the conversation, just chill out.

[tubby johnson]

Did anybody actually read the whole way through the OP's monologue till the end? Congratulations.

Edited September 5, 2014 by tubby johnson

[Upset]

I think to each his own....everybody has a right to choose who he wants to smile to, be friends with or just ignore. I find it bizarre that some whites think that its a must for all whites to greet each other and to talk to each other let alone befriend them .

In the condo that I stay in Bangkok, I do not want to know anyone be it thais or farangs or other foreigners. I just want to go home to the unit I bought with my hard earned moneyand relax and do what I wanna do. I have my own circle of friends here in Bangkok and thats enough. Upcountry, In the mooban that I I bough a few plots and two houses, thank god there are no farangs and I do not even want to know my thai neighbours...do not want people coming over to borrow sugar or worsts still money or beer (lol!) and do not want to associate with people I have no clue of their backgrounds ie run away criminals, dsyfunctional individuals, jealous creeps etc.I have a great security system and a good deal with the local coppers to keep an eye on the place and also in case of any emergencies , we have our own people to rely upon.

Having said all that, I merely ignore my neighbours be it thais or foreigners...they can think wahtever of me...I do not care...I am not depending on them for my monies or food!

Having said all that, most expats here in thailand usually get into trouble ie being cheated, etc etc because of other foreigners!

[Neeranam]

If I'm driving with any of my family and we see a farang I shout "farang" and we all laugh. Go figure. Not sure why I find them funny,

[belg]

what they say again : if farang wanted to meet other farang , he would have stayed home ?

[rayongchelsea]

Another one of those silly comments.

There is a great variation of farangs/ foreigners here. From Europe, oz, South America etc..North America.

One of the great joys of moving abroad , travel is to meet all types of people.

I find those foreigners who say that as rather oddballs. So many have come to Thailand..shame..

[villagefarang]

Maybe as the OP I should explain what I do. If I am passing another foreigner and he avoids eye contact I try to avoid making him feel uncomfortable and look the other way. If we do make eye contact I will usually smile and nod but continue on my way if it is a first encounter.

If we happen to be sitting at adjacent tables in Starbucks and look up at the same time I might say hello. Often we are both waiting on our wives and have a few minutes to kill. If I have seen the same person on more than one occasion and we have smiled I might comment on the fact that we seem to frequent the same places and see where it goes from there.

The object is not to make friends, necessarily, but to be polite and friendly. If at any time the other person looks uncomfortable I will move on. It always helps if it doesn’t come out of the blue and there is commonality in what you are doing. If someone looks busy or like they are going somewhere, just let them go about their business.

If you see someone regularly it is nice to know who they are. I only get into town a couple time each week so I don’t have to worry about having to see someone everyday. I find the more people I know, the better the chance I will bump into someone I know while I am in town, leading to a brief friendly exchange. If the wives like each other then we might share a coffee or a meal. I like spontaneity and hate making appointments so this works for me but I am sure it would not work for everyone.

[Lex Talionis]

Former US President George W. Bush (the younger) once said:

I want to hear everyone's opinion -- but I have already made up my mind.

Is that an actual quote? I bet puppet master Cheney had a good laugh at that one.

[Sawan Chan 7]

If I'm driving with any of my family and we see a farang I shout "farang" and we all laugh. Go figure. Not sure why I find them funny,

They do stick out like a sore thumb and often are quite comical. There body language is very different from a Thai

[thailiketoo]

Former US President George W. Bush (the younger) once said:

I want to hear everyone's opinion -- but I have already made up my mind.

Is that an actual quote? I bet puppet master Cheney had a good laugh at that one.

It is incredibly sad that on an international forum about Thailand that you have nothing better to do than post an American Presidential bash of an administration that has been out of office for two terms. 8 years in the daily changing world of politics is like a century. Isn't there some kind of historical bogyman forum that would be more appropriate for your comments?

[Sawan Chan 7]

Maybe as the OP I should explain what I do. If I am passing another foreigner and he avoids eye contact I try to avoid making him feel uncomfortable and look the other way. If we do make eye contact I will usually smile and nod but continue on my way if it is a first encounter.

If we happen to be sitting at adjacent tables in Starbucks and look up at the same time I might say hello. Often we are both waiting on our wives and have a few minutes to kill. If I have seen the same person on more than one occasion and we have smiled I might comment on the fact that we seem to frequent the same places and see where it goes from there.

The object is not to make friends, necessarily, but to be polite and friendly. If at any time the other person looks uncomfortable I will move on. It always helps if it doesn’t come out of the blue and there is commonality in what you are doing. If someone looks busy or like they are going somewhere, just let them go about their business.

If you see someone regularly it is nice to know who they are. I only get into town a couple time each week so I don’t have to worry about having to see someone everyday. I find the more people I know, the better the chance I will bump into someone I know while I am in town, leading to a brief friendly exchange. If the wives like each other then we might share a coffee or a meal. I like spontaneity and hate making appointments so this works for me but I am sure it would not work for everyone.

Maybe you have a false sense of self-importance. Perhaps they don't even know you are there.

[tubby johnson]

Maybe as the OP I should explain what I do. If I am passing another foreigner and he avoids eye contact I try to avoid making him feel uncomfortable and look the other way. If we do make eye contact I will usually smile and nod but continue on my way if it is a first encounter.

If we happen to be sitting at adjacent tables in Starbucks and look up at the same time I might say hello. Often we are both waiting on our wives and have a few minutes to kill. If I have seen the same person on more than one occasion and we have smiled I might comment on the fact that we seem to frequent the same places and see where it goes from there.

The object is not to make friends, necessarily, but to be polite and friendly. If at any time the other person looks uncomfortable I will move on. It always helps if it doesn’t come out of the blue and there is commonality in what you are doing. If someone looks busy or like they are going somewhere, just let them go about their business.

If you see someone regularly it is nice to know who they are. I only get into town a couple time each week so I don’t have to worry about having to see someone everyday. I find the more people I know, the better the chance I will bump into someone I know while I am in town, leading to a brief friendly exchange. If the wives like each other then we might share a coffee or a meal. I like spontaneity and hate making appointments so this works for me but I am sure it would not work for everyone.

Your method probably works because you're a country boy living out in the sticks. In the big city, people won't appreciate being chatted up by complete strangers. If your monologues are as long as your posts, then people will soon tire of you talking about yourself. Don't inflict suffering on people and let them enjoy their cup of Starbucks coffee in peace.

[villagefarang]

Thank you both for sharing your vast intellect, experience and wisdom with me. Clearly I still have a lot to learn about Thailand and expat life.

[starky]

The reality is most of my good friends I met way before I came to Thailand. If I was in Bangkok or Pattaya or Phuket sure I would be happy to have a chat and let someone piss in my pocket for a few hours, and I have met some great people in these places but they aren't what I consider good friends. For those of us that live in more remote areas.... well if you go out of your way to meet the local white fellas it's 50/50 maybe good blokes maybe idiots and in a remote location it's very hard to remove yourself from the situation once you have introduced yourself and beyond that there is nowhere to hide if said person turns out to be a goose. Just because we are both foreigners in Thailand doesn't presume we have anything at all in common I believe. Personally I have zero interest in meeting the local farang and have no need to, it's not why I moved to Isaan and I don't pine for the company of people with similar skin or English language abilities. I am fluent in Thai so have heaps of people to speak with and beyond that have a phone that roams and Skype and Line and all the other ways I can talk to my real friends who I am actually interested in talking to. Why should I or need to bridge this imaginary divide of which you speak? Doesn't make much sense to me IMO

[Neeranam]

The reality is most of my good friends I met way before I came to Thailand. If I was in Bangkok or Pattaya or Phuket sure I would be happy to have a chat and let someone piss in my pocket for a few hours, and I have met some great people in these places but they aren't what I consider good friends. For those of us that live in more remote areas.... well if you go out of your way to meet the local white fellas it's 50/50 maybe good blokes maybe idiots and in a remote location it's very hard to remove yourself from the situation once you have introduced yourself and beyond that there is nowhere to hide if said person turns out to be a goose. Just because we are both foreigners in Thailand doesn't presume we have anything at all in common I believe. Personally I have zero interest in meeting the local farang and have no need to, it's not why I moved to Isaan and I don't pine for the company of people with similar skin or English language abilities. I am fluent in Thai so have heaps of people to speak with and beyond that have a phone that roams and Skype and Line and all the other ways I can talk to my real friends who I am actually interested in talking to. Why should I or need to bridge this imaginary divide of which you speak? Doesn't make much sense to me IMO

Having that avatar, I'm surprised you don't want to stick together with your fellow whites.

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=agent+bulldog+nazi&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qakOVJKSFdPkuQShroKYDw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1146&bih=559#tbm=isch&q=pitbull+nazi

Edited September 9, 2014 by Neeranam

[villagefarang]

I am not sure what a smile or a nod of the head has to do with becoming best friends. As I said before it is just about being polite. Maybe you don’t want to be nice but it might make the other guy feel less uncomfortable if he can’t speak Thai.

On several occasions Thai friends have had a foreigner visiting and they were having difficulty communicating with them so they invited me and my wife to come over and make things a little easier for a while.

I can’t imagine telling friends that I don’t want to talk to a foreigner because he isn’t a real friend.

[Neeranam]

I am not sure what a smile or a nod of the head has to do with becoming best friends. As I said before it is just about being polite. Maybe you don’t want to be nice but it might make the other guy feel less uncomfortable if he can’t speak Thai.

On several occasions Thai friends have had a foreigner visiting and they were having difficulty communicating with them so they invited me and my wife to come over and make things a little easier for a while.

I can’t imagine telling friends that I don’t want to talk to a foreigner because he isn’t a real friend.

What if one is English and one Scottish?

One is from Barcelona and the other Madrid?

One from Manchester the other from Liverpool?

One is American, French or whatever.

Do you nod at African people, Aboriginal or Japanese because there not Thai?

Do you know what codependent people pleasing is? I you've been living among Thais for any considerable period, maybe it has rubbed off on you - greng jai etc.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Neeranam

[mauGR1]

I am not sure what a smile or a nod of the head has to do with becoming best friends. As I said before it is just about being polite. Maybe you don’t want to be nice but it might make the other guy feel less uncomfortable if he can’t speak Thai.

On several occasions Thai friends have had a foreigner visiting and they were having difficulty communicating with them so they invited me and my wife to come over and make things a little easier for a while.

I can’t imagine telling friends that I don’t want to talk to a foreigner because he isn’t a real friend.

This is just a healthy way of thinking.

What a sad world would be if we stop talking to strangers.

While being conscious that age drives people on the cynical side, it's just better to be friendly, if not for the benefit of others, just for one's sanity of mind.

It seems that there are a few sociopaths here, well, i would never wish to be one of them.

[Jdiddy]

I thought it was just me who got this, i politely smile or nod, nothing exaggerated or over the top, same as i would do back home

Got the cold shoulder most of the time, at home i always get a nod or a "gday"

if i was a thai, i'd enjoy ripping off and making fun of ferang, bunch of rude miserable <deleted>

[J Bradley]

Thank you both for sharing your vast intellect, experience and wisdom with me. Clearly I still have a lot to learn about Thailand and expat life.

Your comments are childish and petty. This is probably where you're going wrong.

Never overlook the possibility that others may not wish to know you.

It may also be prudent to remember that successful authors and published academics don't describe themselves as wordsmiths.

Writers write. Untalented pseuds self-indulge.

[villagefarang]

I had no idea I was “going wrong”. I thought I was doing quite well. Thank you for setting me straight.

[villagefarang]

Thank you for your kind endorsement.

[Yooyung]

I am cautious about new people in my life. Hard to get rid of dependent nutters who think that because I am also a farang that their company is welcome at any time. More of these socially dependent here than at home, IMHO.

That hit the nail on the head. I didnt come here to live in some farang ghetto, eating baked beans on toast, while drinking warm beer and arguing about football. At the moment at my school I am the only westerner, the others are Philipino ( and Thai obviously) Just because I am a farang doesnt mean I want to say hello to every farang i see. Infact, I have grown used to not being around them. I dont have anything against anyone and will give decent people the time of day. However, there are a lot of nutters out there, believe me, when you teach here you meet all sorts. I have grown used to being independant. I speak Thai quite well and dont really need anyone to help out. I find that there are those out there that inspite of living here for an extended period have just never really learned to cope on their own. I dont mind helping people out but sometimes people tend to hang around like lost little puppies. Maybe I am a loner? Maybe a lot of us are at heart? I like having the choice of either being able immerse myself in Thai culture, or disappearing into the chaos and just being another farang that no one understands. To me thats freedom and thats why I live here.

[pokerkid]

Fair question but I might counter with, why not? Just thought I would cast this upon the waters and see if I could get a conversation started. Thinking about going for a mt. bike ride but waiting for some clouds to pass so I have a few minutes to kill.

I was born an expat and have been one my entire life. In most places I've lived the expat community was all very similar in age, social class, financial level and education.

As a result the expat communities I lived amongst were very tight knit, as kids we all played with each other whilst our parents socialised.

Here in Thailand I don't really consider most farang as expats... some old bloke retiring from the UK is hardly what I'd call an expat.

But for arguments sake lets call all western foreigners here expats....

I've never mixed with people because they were expats, I mixed with them because they were my age group, they went to similar public school, their families were of a similar social and economic standing.....

I've no interest in socialising with people who don't fit into those categories.

arrogant snob. but you still socialize on thaivisa....

[JLCrab]

20+ years ago I stayed almost 2 weeks on Lantau Island Hong Kong waiting out the Chinese New Year before going to the mainland. I regularly passed the same guy on a dirt path to/from my hotel and said Hello! but he never said anything nor acknowledged my presence. I asked as the only American at the local bar why this was so.

They responded: Why should he say Hello! to you -- he doesn't know what school you went to.

[ATF]

Fair question but I might counter with, why not? Just thought I would cast this upon the waters and see if I could get a conversation started. Thinking about going for a mt. bike ride but waiting for some clouds to pass so I have a few minutes to kill.

I was born an expat and have been one my entire life. In most places I've lived the expat community was all very similar in age, social class, financial level and education.

As a result the expat communities I lived amongst were very tight knit, as kids we all played with each other whilst our parents socialised.

Here in Thailand I don't really consider most farang as expats... some old bloke retiring from the UK is hardly what I'd call an expat.

But for arguments sake lets call all western foreigners here expats....

I've never mixed with people because they were expats, I mixed with them because they were my age group, they went to similar public school, their families were of a similar social and economic standing.....

I've no interest in socialising with people who don't fit into those categories.

Yeah so very Hi-So. Last month you were complaining you didn't have enough money to get a hotel in Penang to get your ED Visa.

Whose Fag were you at Eton?

[Cuppa]

9 pages, 210 posts ......and still no sense of coming together, of reaching compromise, of accepting difference. Some seem only to want to strengthen division. So much vitriol & abuse. It seems to me that perhaps there are some mother countries who would have been only too happy to have lost their ’sons’.

<Shakes head slowly from side to side>.

Although new here, I have been a regular contributor to internet forums for over a decade now & have witnessed the ups & downs of ‘online life’, but truthfully the only forums I have seen where such abuse & lack of acceptance has been as prevalent as in this thread have been those largely populated by teenage boys. I certainly had not expected it here.

If I believed that much of the input to this thread was representative of the community we are considering moving to...... well we just wouldn’t bother. I don’t make judgement upon how others choose to live their lives but clearly there are many who do...... given the relative anonymity of an internet forum. Big men with little typing fingers?

It really makes me wonder WHY many choose to participate here. I choose this & other forums as a place to share, to learn & to connect. Isn’t that what forums are about? So why such lack of respect from many? Do they feel that those they perceive as different are responsible for the hurt in their lives* & does lashing out somehow makes them feel better. Perhaps lashing out is their only means of connecting? Maybe it’s a good thing & keeps those people’s (& those around them) lives more stable? Perhaps some of what we see here is envy of those who have made a success of their expat transition? Whatever it is, it is not pretty & I doubt that it serves any real purpose other than to maintain the protective walls that folk have built around themselves. It must be lonely inside.

These are my observations, my view albeit a little provocative, which I would like to think might encourage folk to examine their motives for writing what they do, even if only briefly. I may have things completely wrong, but that is ok if the response is one of self reflection leading to an increased willingnes to accommodate difference. My guess though is that well established self protective mechanisms will come into play & that I will either be ignored or attacked....... which of course is just more of the same.

*a belief which is surely a recipe for disaster particularly for folk who choose to leave familiarity & move to a different culture. How many left familiarity because it didn’t work for them - out of the fying pan into the fire? (A rhetorical question).