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Posted (edited)

I'm with Bruce. Playing along with the Thai government school system by sucking up to them, being Mr. Nice Guy and "respecting" them despite their consistent lying and cheating, is, in the end, worse for both parties, because it's basically telling the Thai admins that "you can go on lying and mistreating us and we'll accept it like the little white bitch boys we are. The only way the Thais will learn to respect Farangs is if we teach them the lessons they need to learn.

Ya! Ra Ra!. Lets get the tanks and jets in here and colonize these heathens. We can whip them into shape and teach them how the world should be. Dammit I'm white and western, you WILL respect me, even though Im a sad, middle-aged, skirt chasing acoholic that is only teaching here in order to extend my stay in Thailand, not because I actually give a crap about education in Thailand. And Ive been here 5 years, but can barely order my food properly using the Thai language, but that is becasue THEY SHOULD learn English. Oh, did I mention that I have a 2 year diploma from City Guilds College for apprentice plumbing, so I KNOW all there is to know about education and if you would just listen to me I can fix all your problems. And MY country's education system is the BEST, although I havent actually been to a school in my country for 20 years and I wasnt a very good student either, BUT HEY, you will respect me as a TEACHER.

It has very little to do with "sucking up" or being "Mr. Nice Guy". Believe or not, some people are naturally happy and nice, and dont whinge and moan about everything. It's about understanding your role and where you are.

When will these people just learn to RESPECT us. We need to TEACH them a lesson or 2 and Im equipped with my plumbing certificate and 20 hour online TEFL course so Im just the man to do it. I hope Thailand is just like the U.K. in 20 years.

Can you say, "I will not resort to juvenile Ad Hominems when participating in adult discussions" sixteen times in a row? Good job! I'm guessing you've never taught here in Thailand, but I won't stoop to your level and assume things about you, since you're nothing but a faceless stranger to me.

For your information (inasmuch as your presumptuous mind is able to process such) I am a young (mid-to-late-twenties) professional with a B.A. in a specialized language field in English. I teach at multiple language centers and am respected by my employers and students alike. I care about my students and have stood up for the Thai education system on multiple occasions. For instance: When I was asked to bump up my grades for certain lazy students of mine, I refused. When I was asked to help students cheat on an American national test, I also refused.

Before I accepted my current jobs at my independent language centers, I taught at a Thai government school which treated their teachers like absolute shit. Sure, there were people like the ones you described, but there were also hard-working, honest, educated people like myself putting in the hours to do a good job. However, once you had been at the school for a few months, you began to realize that all your hard work and honesty really just made you look like more of a ting tong monkey in the eyes of the school administration, who largely either ignored the Farang staff or lied to them, all the while skimming money from teachers' paychecks by lying to them about what the agencies were paying them.

Sucking up to the administration in such cases merely makes you look like an incompetent bastard. In fact, one of the most respected Farang teachers at that school today once said "f*** you" to an administrator's face after she acted severely unethically. Do you know what the fallout of that was? He was ultimately MORE respected by the administration. He's now back at the school teaching his second year, and much loved by the students.

Meanwhile, the school has overlooked some shady goings-on that would have gained national attention had this been a school in the US or the UK.

To have any remaining respect for the Thai education system—now *that* would be unethical.

I also do not drink or pay money for sex (not to judge those who do), and I'm anti-imperialist. Oh, and I'm not from the U.K.

Welcome to Thai Visa...

Edited by jackspade
  • Like 2
Posted (edited)

I worked for a Government college when I first came to Thailand. I worked my socks off for ten months with no break. My holidays were filled with other activities the school made me and my colleague do. At the end of the ten month period I thought I could relax and enjoy the perks of the 12 month contract I had signed (actually have a break). No such luck, they wanted us to work for less than the agreed 30k a year (because someone else said they could get NES for a lot less) and they refused to give the remaining two months of salary. I now have a more pleasurable job, teaching nearly half the hours I was before but with a similar salary.

If the OP's government school had a similar feeling to mine then I wouldn't lose any sleep over taking the last month salary after what they did to me. At my current workplace there's a nicer atmosphere and I wouldn't dream of leaving them in the lurch.

Edited by alien365
  • Like 1
Posted

Sadly it's the actions of people like the O.P. that have caused the situation he or she describes regarding payment or non payment situations.

Teachers are supposed to be ethical people are they not?

You're making a big assumption. Animosity between teachers and schools here can be just as much, if not more, to be blamed on the way the schools are run and the lack of respect the foreign teachers receive from top to bottom.

Posted

Right on Bruce.

They really don't give a flying fork about farang English teachers.

Ive been here for 28 years and put 3 kids through school. Native English teachers are purely for making the school money.

Some folks on here don't understand the reality of Thailand and the farang teachers in the Government schools.

Sorry, but the somewhat incoherent English composition provided in the original post makes me wonder if the loss to the school and students will be that great. I wonder if the O/P is going back to UK to teach English. One can only hope she finds a "career" more suited to her skills. The poor English results in Thai schools can't be blamed solely on the schools and the students.

Reading between the lines, yep, leaving Thailand in early October, one way flight back to the U.K.. If you figured that out before I told you, you are the kind of member I'd like an opinion from!

It definitely would require someone to read between the lines to fathom it all.

...the students can appear to be appreciative of your efforts, they will get over you in about half an hour. Their affection is superficial at best ...

If your aim was some long lasting affection from the students while your primary concern is collecting your pay before you cut & run, I guess your students must also be able to read between the lines without you telling them anything. I'm sure your behavior will validate & enforce their attitude towards other teachers unless they can perceive something deserving more respect, let alone affection.

Posted (edited)

I absolutely concur that the only way to teach Thais is to disrespect them and show them that you won't take it. Don't do it and, collectively, they walk all over us, which is what is happening incidentally.

This is what Thais respond to. Look at the employers, they get all the respect in the world and treat the employees like slaves here. Everyone seems to fear employers here. Show them you don't and go to town on them in any way possible. It's the only way they'll learn not to mess with us.

Here's a useful metaphor. Disregard at your own peril and lack of self respect...

You are standing in a room, and a man slaps you in the face.

You calmly step back and say, ok, what the hell happened. You get no answer but it seems like a one time thing so you forget it

You are standing in the room again, and whack, same guy smacks you.

From here on out there are two or three options. Quit, be a peon and take it while it gets worse, or stand up for yourself and hit him back.

You are one of those 3 options here in these schools. Make no mistake. You are disrespected every day. Only your pay and your actions will tell you what kind of person you really are.

Edited by meand
  • Like 2
Posted

Okay, I have read what you had to say and I have to say that it was a bit shocking to that coming from a teacher. The politics of working at a Thai Government school aside, as that really depends upon how YOU play their game (as with any company or institution anywhere on Planet Earth by the way) the fact that you have stated what you did regarding the students is myopic.

Students do not look at you as if you are some great being that has been gifted to them. You are their teacher. What you bring to that classroom is up to you. If the students are paying no attention to the material you are covering with them or even the manner you are presenting it, then may, just maybe, you are not doing the job you have to.

Listen, not every student will 'carry a picture of you" in their wallets titled "the best teacher" they ever had. You will reach some of your students and fall short with others. That is the nature of things in general. But that does NOT mean that you should simply give up on the ones you have not reached as you would have liked to.

A classroom is a theater. You are the performer. The students are your audience. The room is your stage. But to simply pull out and forget about it is actually doing a far greater dis-service to your students than you think. Frankly I find that your lack of concern for said students sad to say the least. So they do not send you flowers and worship the ground you walk on. So the school is not backing you up. But do you really need the latter to do that? Are you not capable to fend for yourself and learn to "Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome"? Are you not strong enough? As for the former, is it that important to you that you have such a fan club? For are yo there to teach of be loved?

I have been a teacher here for 4 years and Government schools and though not all the school's administration has been the easiest to work with and have at more times than not failed to give me what my class/es needed, I took care of things myself. It it meant spending some of my own money on supplies or other materials... then fine... I have (remember that all teachers in all countries do this on a weekly if not daily basis. So it is not anything that is Thai specific). If it meant that I deal with an issue on my own, then I did.

The students that I have had started out not caring and knew that I was not, as you suggested, the be all and end all of their educational careers. But that never stopped me. I kept at it, for I had a job to do and to get them motivated and wanting to come to class is something that every teacher has to do daily. I remember hating going to French class when I was in school, but the teacher never did give up on my complete lack of learning the language. She knew that I hated it, but in the end she turned me around and today I speak and write French fluently. So it was not all a loss.

But if you are unhappy being here, which what you wrote really seems to be saying, then leave and good luck to you. I am not being sarcastic at all. Just know that the suggestion you put forward regarding your students not missing you in the long run or short for that matter, will not really be the complete truth. For you will be missed.

  • Like 2
Posted

I absolutely concur that the only way to teach Thais is to disrespect them and show them that you won't take it. Don't do it and, collectively, they walk all over us, which is what is happening incidentally.

This is what Thais respond to. Look at the employers, they get all the respect in the world and treat the employees like slaves here. Everyone seems to fear employers here. Show them you don't and go to town on them in any way possible. It's the only way they'll learn not to mess with us.

Here's a useful metaphor. Disregard at your own peril and lack of self respect...

You are standing in a room, and a man slaps you in the face.

You calmly step back and say, ok, what the hell happened. You get no answer but it seems like a one time thing so you forget it

You are standing in the room again, and whack, same guy smacks you.

From here on out there are two or three options. Quit, be a peon and take it while it gets worse, or stand up for yourself and hit him back.

You are one of those 3 options here in these schools. Make no mistake. You are disrespected every day. Only your pay and your actions will tell you what kind of person you really are.

And, For those wondering why simply quitting isn't the best option, well, what if your next employer knows how that guy slapped you, and you just let hi get away with it. He can easily hire a new guy, he doesn't care if he has to let you go, and now he knows he can do whatever the hell we wants to you with no repercussions.

Posted

There are a lot of employers who will in fact discharge an employee upon receiving a notice. This is especially true if money handled or money matters decided by the departing employee. We might also remind some of you that Government schools are exempt from paying severance. There is no doubt in this particular setting that the Director will be blamed or in fact refuse to pay October despite the employee having earned and deserving of same. The intent of the OP wasn't to get votes on it all. It was just sharing a situation and curious about others in the same situation. As for all these personal attacks of me, well what can we say? You won't get them back in kind. I have no use for childlike antics and character assassinations of me on the internet. Save it for someone who cares.

Posted
jacko45k, on 12 Sept 2014 - 10:01, said:
siampolee, on 11 Sept 2014 - 07:18, said:

Sadly it's the actions of people like the O.P. that have caused the situation he or she describes regarding payment or non payment situations.

Teachers are supposed to be ethical people are they not?

They might be more-so if their employers were.

I have always expected my 'boss' to lead by good example...... doesn't seem to work here.

Try finding the manager in his office!

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

Posted

"...all the while skimming money from teachers' paychecks by lying to them about what the agencies were paying them."

Statements like that usually turn out to not be true.

What is relevant is how much did you agree to work for, and are they paying you that amount?

The difference between what the school pays the agency and what the agency pays the teacher is not your money.

  • Like 1
Posted

Those of you working in the public schools are making multiples of what the Thai teachers earn despite being under qualified in comparison. I think you sound self-entitled

Not true, I was asked by a Thai friend working in Thai school to edit a letter to central ministry in BK detailing Thai teacher salaries. The entry ones were on 8000 baht (and if they could speak decent enough English to teach it, they would go for a significantly higher paying job I hear) while the eldest (who had been there since 1983) was on 42,000 baht a month. These figures don't include "grey money", ie: the benefits of being a local in a respected position.

Posted

Who cares what Thai teachers make, or what multiple of our salry they make. That is their problem. It has no bearing on the conversation. If Thai govt got really cheeky and cut their pay in half, does that mean we should feel worse somehow. No, it completely inconsequential. It's their problem.

Posted

Of course it has bearing on the conversation.

Many of you are whinging about your pay and treatment, yet you can walk into a job on the first day and make 3/4ths of what someone who has been there for 30 years is making.

Sounds like you are treated better than you deserve judging by some of these comments.

Posted

Of course it has bearing on the conversation.

Many of you are whinging about your pay and treatment, yet you can walk into a job on the first day and make 3/4ths of what someone who has been there for 30 years is making.

Sounds like you are treated better than you deserve judging by some of these comments.

But how good is their English? Their pronunciation? How much English do they actually speak in class? From my experience they don't fare well on all three of these points. A lot of students pannick when they see a westerner. They become scared and worry that they may say something wrong so they say nothing at all. Having a NES is important in order to overcome these issues and take the students' skills to the next level.
  • Like 1
Posted

. A lot of students pannick when they see a westerner. They become scared and worry that they may say something wrong so they say nothing at all. Having a NES is important in order to overcome these issues and take the students' skills to the next level.

Overcoming these fears and encouraging the students to speak and seek English exchange is something a decent farang teacher will do. Good point. Not sure if on topic, but with so many posts in this discussion being off topic, what the heck. Good on ya mate.

Posted

Of course it has bearing on the conversation.

Many of you are whinging about your pay and treatment, yet you can walk into a job on the first day and make 3/4ths of what someone who has been there for 30 years is making.

Sounds like you are treated better than you deserve judging by some of these comments.

It's not 75 percent of an experienced Thai teacher. And you are not even counting the benefits such as the Credit Union and retirement benefits. However, we all know the pay when we start working and have no reason to believe it will be increased yearly and benefits added. You are an at will worker. Nothing more. I don't recall a lot of whining about it either but I guess you read some? This again has nothing to do with the topic at our keyboards......

Posted

The entry ones were on 8000 baht (and if they could speak decent enough English to teach it, they would go for a significantly higher paying job I hear)

Where did you hear this or get this idea? They have never asked me to evaluate the speaking ability of Thai teachers nor any other "English" teacher such as non-native speakers. The only opinion on that is of the other Thai teachers, I assume the department heads who often can't carry a conversation themselves in English. No farang is going to be put in a position to judge/evaluate a Thai teacher and/or fail a Thai student. Again, "get with the program mate".

  • Like 1
Posted

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

For the record, I never said "they are worse". It is an implication you have drawn based upon the replies of others. It isn't a "cut and run" either. In a professional environment there would be no question about October being paid as it has been earned. As far as "ethical" concerns, we are way beyond that in my circumstance. A person can only take being shat upon for so long, then she has taken all the shat she will stand for.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

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The entry ones were on 8000 baht (and if they could speak decent enough English to teach it, they would go for a significantly higher paying job I hear)

Where did you hear this or get this idea? They have never asked me to evaluate the speaking ability of Thai teachers nor any other "English" teacher such as non-native speakers. The only opinion on that is of the other Thai teachers, I assume the department heads who often can't carry a conversation themselves in English. No farang is going to be put in a position to judge/evaluate a Thai teacher and/or fail a Thai student. Again, "get with the program mate".

Once again, it happened to you, so it must be true for the other 10,000 foreign teachers out there. I have done plenty of training workshops that included evaluations of Thai English teachers. My job is to observe, assess, provide feedback and training, provide admin with my final assessment and suggestions. Out of my hands after that as it would be in almost any other contracted job i any other field. But, since YOU have never seen or heard of this, it MUST not be true.

Get with the program yourself. If you think that undeserving students passing and moving on to the next grade is a problem that exists only in Thai schools, you really have no clue about education in most of the world today.

Edited by MaiPenRai3
Posted (edited)

Once again, it happened to you, so it must be true for the other 10,000 foreign teachers out there. I have done plenty of training workshops that included evaluations of Thai English teachers. My job is to observe, assess, provide feedback and training, provide admin with my final assessment and suggestions. Out of my hands after that as it would be in almost any other contracted job i any other field. But, since YOU have never seen or heard of this, it MUST not be true.

Get with the program yourself. If you think that undeserving students passing and moving on to the next grade is a problem that exists only in Thai schools, you really have no clue about education in most of the world today.

More personal attacks. Please see the prior disclosure that I don't care about them. Come to the street and hurl your accusations. No one, at least not me, said anything about the merits of sending students onward vs. holding them back. I was referring to a farang (failing him/her causing...) doing it to a Thai child. As for the other point I made, you have more or less admitted it is true. So as the lady says "where's the beef?". So well written above yet again, you must think your "assessment and suggestions" are taken seriously? Odd at best.

Edited by BruceMangosteen
Posted

I am sorry, but ethics, or professional ethics are almost by definition an intrinsic attribute.

Op is not being ethical professionally. Saying "well, they are worse" is the exact opposite of what profesional ethics is all about.

He or she can cut and run if they want, but make no mistake it is neither profesional nor ethical.

For the record, I never said "they are worse". It is an implication you have drawn based upon the replies of others. It isn't a "cut and run" either. In a professional environment there would be no question about October being paid as it has been earned. As far as "ethical" concerns, we are way beyond that in my circumstance. A person can only take being shat upon for so long, then she has taken all the shat she will stand for.

Sounds pretty clear cut to me. If you did the right thing they would screw you over anyway. You know the individual school and its ways of dealings more than any poster here. My only concern for you is that you may need a reference for your next job in the UK. Because my previous school did me over I wrote a letter of recommendation saying how great I was and made them print on headed paper and sign it. If I was in England I would have made a legal claim against them for not paying me the final two months but I knew here it's a waste of time.

Posted
Sounds pretty clear cut to me. If you did the right thing they would screw you over anyway.

Good morning. It is clear cut. I said that in the beginning....give a notice and not be paid what has been earned, or don't give a notice and collect just and due earnings.... Unfortunately some want to rush to the defense of their own built up fence of job security they don't realize could come crumbling down much like those walls in Bangkok during the red shirt riots with order one order from above.

As for the reference or proof etc., I have that covered but thanks for bringing an on topic aspect of the discussion forward!

Posted

I'm with Bruce. Playing along with the Thai government school system by sucking up to them, being Mr. Nice Guy and "respecting" them despite their consistent lying and cheating, is, in the end, worse for both parties, because it's basically telling the Thai admins that "you can go on lying and mistreating us and we'll accept it like the little white bitch boys we are. The only way the Thais will learn to respect Farangs is if we teach them the lessons they need to learn.

Ya! Ra Ra!. Lets get the tanks and jets in here and colonize these heathens. We can whip them into shape and teach them how the world should be. Dammit I'm white and western, you WILL respect me, even though Im a sad, middle-aged, skirt chasing acoholic that is only teaching here in order to extend my stay in Thailand, not because I actually give a crap about education in Thailand. And Ive been here 5 years, but can barely order my food properly using the Thai language, but that is becasue THEY SHOULD learn English. Oh, did I mention that I have a 2 year diploma from City Guilds College for apprentice plumbing, so I KNOW all there is to know about education and if you would just listen to me I can fix all your problems. And MY country's education system is the BEST, although I havent actually been to a school in my country for 20 years and I wasnt a very good student either, BUT HEY, you will respect me as a TEACHER.

It has very little to do with "sucking up" or being "Mr. Nice Guy". Believe or not, some people are naturally happy and nice, and dont whinge and moan about everything. It's about understanding your role and where you are.

When will these people just learn to RESPECT us. We need to TEACH them a lesson or 2 and Im equipped with my plumbing certificate and 20 hour online TEFL course so Im just the man to do it. I hope Thailand is just like the U.K. in 20 years.

Can you say, "I will not resort to juvenile Ad Hominems when participating in adult discussions" sixteen times in a row? Good job! I'm guessing you've never taught here in Thailand, but I won't stoop to your level and assume things about you, since you're nothing but a faceless stranger to me.

For your information (inasmuch as your presumptuous mind is able to process such) I am a young (mid-to-late-twenties) professional with a B.A. in a specialized language field in English. I teach at multiple language centers and am respected by my employers and students alike. I care about my students and have stood up for the Thai education system on multiple occasions. For instance: When I was asked to bump up my grades for certain lazy students of mine, I refused. When I was asked to help students cheat on an American national test, I also refused.

Before I accepted my current jobs at my independent language centers, I taught at a Thai government school which treated their teachers like absolute shit. Sure, there were people like the ones you described, but there were also hard-working, honest, educated people like myself putting in the hours to do a good job. However, once you had been at the school for a few months, you began to realize that all your hard work and honesty really just made you look like more of a ting tong monkey in the eyes of the school administration, who largely either ignored the Farang staff or lied to them, all the while skimming money from teachers' paychecks by lying to them about what the agencies were paying them.

Sucking up to the administration in such cases merely makes you look like an incompetent bastard. In fact, one of the most respected Farang teachers at that school today once said "f*** you" to an administrator's face after she acted severely unethically. Do you know what the fallout of that was? He was ultimately MORE respected by the administration. He's now back at the school teaching his second year, and much loved by the students.

Meanwhile, the school has overlooked some shady goings-on that would have gained national attention had this been a school in the US or the UK.

To have any remaining respect for the Thai education system—now *that* would be unethical.

I also do not drink or pay money for sex (not to judge those who do), and I'm anti-imperialist. Oh, and I'm not from the U.K.

Welcome to Thai Visa...

So instead of focusing on the real issue, you have provided me with your sparse "resume". Thanks?

*In case you dont know, the issue is your ridiculous idea that it is OUR/YOUR job to TEACH the Thais a lesson or 2 on how to live in their own country. No one said you have to respect it, just dont be so pretentious to think that at 27, equipped with an English bachelors degree (sorry....specialized field) it is your job to tell a country how they should be and that you deserve automatic respect as a teacher from any admin.

By the way, if a school is mistreating you and they are not hiding it, who is the idiot for staying? They want you out and you aint picking up on the cues. Be a professional and the bigger person and a role-model for the behaviour you are expecting in return and a grown-up. Give your month notice and wipe your hands of that school. Learn your lesson and either go home where there are plenty of educational issues to bitch and moan about or be more diligent in your next job search in Thailand. Better yet, if you are so passionate about the Thai education system then take an education degree, get your proper licence and then a 2 year Masters degree in education. Get some experience in a western school setting so you have a baseline for real and authentic comparison. Now come back to Thailand, earn the respect of your peers and they may start to listen to your thoughts and ideas on their education system.

I have no need to defend my resume, but lets just say that I am much much more equipped.

  • Like 1

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