Thai Students Win Academic Rewards

[quadricorrelator]

Quadricorrelator,

I think you are very close to being correct here although I haven't checked your actual numbers yet....maybe I'll look on the internet for a statistics site to see if I can verify them. I would like to point out that a population with a mean of 85 and a std. dev of 15 will not have the same shape as a population with a mean of 100 and a std. dev of 15 because 15 is bigger relative to 85 than it is to 100. If you want the bell curves to have the same shape then you need to have a mean of 85 and a std. dev. of approximately 12 (85%of 15) to compare with a mean of 100 and a std. dev. of 15. I am not a statistician but I'm reasonably sure that this is correct....not absolutely sure.

Chownah

P.S. There is another factor to consider....since IQ's are only allowed from 0 to 200 then if the mean is not exactly 100 then there is a bias which would, even in theory mean that a distribution based on a mean other than 100 would not be symmetrical and therefore not bell shaped. Another confounding factor is that it is difficult to measure IQ's of less than 20 since this would indicate animal like behavior I guess....but of course we are discussing a scenario with a well defined mathematical distribution and not a totally realistic one.

Chownah

Hi Chownah,

Thank you for your correction on the calculation. If you go from three standard deviations to four standard deviations then the numbers goes from .00135 to .000032. I believe that ratio should be 42. It would be necessary to go to an IQ of 145 before the IQ density difference became that severe.

I will be curious to hear of any information you learn. I will try to do some research as well.

At this time my thinking is that the standard deviation does not need to be scaled with the mean to keep the same shape. Please let me give my explanation: The Bell curve formula is K2 * e-( IQ - MEAN)^2/K2. K1 and K2 are constants which depend on the standard deviation. Changing MEAN (which is the mean IQ) will only shift the entire curve to the left or the right. If the mean is reduced then it shifts to the left, it the mean is increased it shifts to the right.

As you pointed out, it seems that a shift does bias the curve because only one of the tails will get cut off.

My impression is that the curve does have some explanatory power if the population is large enough, but I wonder if the curve is still accurate out at several standard deviations given data at the center. For example, there should only be 1 in a billion people with IQs higher than 190 (six standard deviations), but I wonder if the curve is accurate out that far with so few data points in that region.

-q

[aaaaaa]

yeah i would like to know where you got the information of them having lower IQ's then normal??

I'm neither a supporter of such generalization (or any - if it comes to generalizations) nor supporter of the concept that IQ level is the main factor for human / national / whatever worth.

the reason / intention of my OP was - against generalization, not to support it. to provide an alternative info to such common and often expressed "crap" that Thais are not so intelligent.

I remember even reading in one thread that someone has mentioned that Thais have less developed one side of brains than other - can't recall the details.

that is what I call - generalization.

also I'm definetely not competent to claim such facts - I've merely read it somehwere, first of all on this Forum. it is easy - simply do Forum search for keywords "IQ level" - at least 10 or 15 topics comes up. here is one of them, although not so recent may be:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11231

as for more official information - I guess anyone can do the same search on wider scale, perhaps much better than me. alright let me try. here are just a few facts (with references):

IQ Hoax - from May 2004 Blog Archive

here it is mentioned that Thailand's average national IQ is 91 (see the list of countries in the article). BTW - quite nice explanation about relation between IQ and voting, democracy, National wealth etc.

few Quotes from article:

"Frighteningly, the U.S. looks rather overvalued.". US average IQ in the chart is 98 which is a bit higher than in Thailand, yet below normal 100.

Honest talk about IQ would expose some deeply personal inconsistencies among our most influential thinkers. Although the typical white intellectual claims he wants to censor discussion of IQ to shield black self-esteem, his sometimes-berserk reactions reveal that he finds it a peril to his own self-image. The typical white intellectual considers himself superior to ordinary white people for two contradictory reasons: First, he constantly proclaims his belief in human equality, but they don't. Second, he has a high IQ, but they don't....

... thesis that a country’s prosperity is closely related to the average IQ of its population—should have made the cover of The Economist because of its devastatingly important implications. But, although some academics took notice, it was ignored by the mainstream media.

same statistics shown elsewhere on one website called EconLog in one of comments on article Wages Move Toward Equilibrium - they provide reference to source "Data of Lynn and Vanhanen" (see THE SMART FRACTION THEORY OF IQ AND THE WEALTH OF NATIONS ). author of that post speaks about IQ among other factors for foreign labor.

here is good Quote:

I don’t think that IQ is a measure of a person’s worth as a human being. IQ is an entirely manmade construct, as is programming. But, IQ is a good predictor of success and productivity as a programmer

BTW - article itself (OP there) mentioned itneresting thing - that with growth of vages in many countries is gonna to reduce and eventually entirely END "very cheap brainpower pool" which I believe one of main factos why many Western countries had enjoyed a lot of developement and "average national IQ" - simply because they used to BUY brains elsewhere !

well, that's another huge subject. alright, back to issue ...

Educational quality

.... A recent study of Thai 15-year-olds found that 37% have a low level of proficiency in reading (see OECD/UNESCO-UIS 2003). The study suggest that these findings may be related to the use of Standard Thai forchildren for whom this is not their first language, a majority of whom are from disadvantaged familybackgrounds.The ability of children to learn is also affected by elements linked to household poverty such astheir standards of nutrition, including the iodine intake that is critical for healthy brain development(WHO/ICCD/UNICEF 2005). The study further suggests that current levels of iodine intake in Thailand couldcontribute to reduce IQ levels in children by 10 to 15%.

taken from here

on Thai government official website The National Statistical Office I couldn't find relevent info - perhaps I didn't look enough? if someone interested - can try finding any related stuff. there is a lot of other interesting facts there.

one Thai website has mentioned figure 92 for average IQ level:News from the Duang Prateep Foundation

scroll down to see section "Learning opportunities", where it is written:

The Sponsorship Section organised a seminar on how to avoid low IQs in children. The event was attended by 166 guardians of sponsored children. The seminar was led by a professor from Mahidol University. Concerns that Thai children have low IQs have been much in the news in recent weeks, so the professor was able to give some timely advice.

yeah, that was already 3 years ago - but I'm just trying to provide evidence that it has been discussed in Thai media as well.

on that web page see further down:

Declining IQ brings study of children

Thai children will be surveyed in a bid to arrest falling intelligence quotient (IQ) levels, the Public Health Ministry said last month. A researcher of the National Health Foundation, said last year that Thai children had an average IQ of 92, below the average level of 100. Research found that malnutrition, especially a lack of iron and iodine, was the main cause of low IQ levels.

here is another Thai source, dated Feb 2006 (well, yeah - Thaksin is speaking, but fact remains the same):

... education has become tied down with the legal system. Everything, every step, has to be interpreted according to the law. Actually, education has to be given the greatest freedom, but the administrators of the education system find themselves marching along according to the rules and regulations. I think it’s very laughable so I’m going to unchain all these things from the education system.

Talking about children, did you know that Thai children aged 0 to 6 years old nowadays have a lower IQ than before? What’s scarier is the fact that older children aged 6-12 years old have an even lower IQ. This means that there is a problem with the system of educating and raising our children. Only 50 percent of a child’s IQ comes from the genes. The remaining 50 percent is from the way that such child is raised and educated.

There is clearly something wrong with our system....

so, I hope now I'm free of any acusations / suspiciousness that it was me who made it all up and am spreading such a "crap" / whetever else it has been labeled? if about QUote mentions that National Health Foundation has done research / survey - I can ardly be blamed ?

I'd like to also point out that I'm not an advocate or entertainer of the notion that IQ is the main or even important criterium AT ALL ! for many reasons. one of most trivial is: so called "IQ test" dosen't necessarily reflects the ability of person to think in different life situations. also, some individuals can practice such test and pass it with better results every next time - pretty much as knowing technics to pass particular exam and knowing the whole material which such exam supposed to test - two entirely fdifferent things. one might not be able to pass exam even after studying hard continiously and eraly KNOWING the material - due to nervousness, shyness, fear of failure, or simply because wrong time organization (during exam).

another thing is - that IQ is just only one of several other Quotients. and it is widely discussed and argued which of them is more or less important for success in one thing or another:

IQ = Intelligence Quotient

EQ = Emotional Intelligence Quotient

MQ = Moral Intelligence Quotient

AQ = Advancement Intelligence Quotient

OQ = Organizational Intelligence Quotient

from: THE BALANCED INTELLIGENCES

often EQ is valued more than IQ. in other cases argued that MQ can be main factor - because without it even individuals with high IQ / EQ can commit immoral acts or crimes, although might be able to be more successfull in business / management etc.

I'm more inclined to believe that what is described there as BI = The Balanced Intelligences - is more important factor of sucess or worth of human being.

and once again - I'm pleased to see that Thai kids has performed so well on International science Olympics !

[Ijustwannateach]

To back up Chownah, it has never been proven that IQ tests measure anything. There is no correlation to any "real" thing in the brain that IQ measures, including intelligence.

It is believed that a high average ability in large populations indicates some correlation with higher levels of intelligence, but I have never heard of a study which proved that the IQ tests developed for Western English-speaking nationals requires no cultural handicaps when translated directly into another language, much less another nation.

As an example of how this can happen even within English-speaking nations, an educational psychologist once invented the "Ghetto IQ Test." One of the questions was, what colour are bananas? The answer?

Brown. Because when bananas get to the ghetto, they're nearly rotten and brown.

An excellent book for debunking the myth of meaning in IQ tests is Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man.

"Steven"

[aaaaaa]

The fact that five gold medals were awarded to Thais at this olympic thing has absolutely no relevance concerning the intelligence or abilities of Thai people generally....nor does it have any relevance concerning the Thai educational system.....none whatsoever.

sorry to disagree with you - at least regarding your usage of word "asolutely". surely there is at least SOME relevance ! absolutely implies - "nothing at all".

I mean - these students are Thais, and they study within Thai Educational system - right ?

I think more correct would've been to say - there is relative relevance. because in the end everything is relative in this world.

Edited July 17, 2006 by aaaaaa

[Jai Dee]

Physics frenzy

Young medallists returning from the International Physics Olympiad in Singapore are mobbed by reporters and cameramen upon their return to Bangkok International Airport yesterday. Thai secondary school students won a gold and four silver medals at the competition.

Source: The Nation - 18 July 2006

[aaaaaa]

somehow (is it a coinsidence?) local thai media has given relevant news on IQ issue.

yesterday local iTV channel had very fresh "BIG REPORT" as they'd called it regarding this matter - precisely about children IQ. they were showing some kindergarden or nursery or wahterver, and some Doctor and / or teacher wre speaking. this is a big issue, as this repost has presented it, and why iTV named it "Big report". average IQ is droping - with age and with years.

chart has been shown (although very breifly and in Thai language) - comparative this year and few years ago. also comapartive by age. 3 age categories : 1-3 years old, 4-12, and 13-18

youngest kids have IQ level min 100 (previous figure - 102), but last cvategory 13-18 y/o about 85 or lower.

same thing were mantioned as factors: malnutrition, particularly lack of iodine and iron in food; education system problems.

some other factors were discussed. kids addiction to playing computer games was mentioned too.

there is a website iTv.co.th but it is in Thai, I couldn't do any search on it to retrive this Big Report. if someone can read & type Thai - perhaps could do so and post the full chart here?

and here is today's report by Nation on the same matter:

Thai children's IQs range between 87 - 88

Thai children's intelligence quotients have stood at between 87 and 88, significantly lower than international standard range of 100 to 110.

Vice Minister for Education Watchara Phanchet Wednesday disclosed the findings at an academic seminar on how to make Thai children smart.

The findings were based on the latest survey in 2002.

"We have to develop the children both intellectually and physically because they are our country's future," Watchara said. More than 800 educators, health professionals, parents and network for disadvantaged children attended the seminar. The Mental Health Department's Rajanukul Institute organised the event.

The Nation

Edited July 19, 2006 by aaaaaa

[aaaaaa]

few more references to earlier published thai reports on same matter :

A Note on the Relevance of the National Average IQ

On August 19 2003, the Bangkok Post reported that the average IQ of Thai

children had fallen from 92.1in 1996 to 89 in 2001. Thai citizens were alarmed by these

statistics. Their concern, as voiced in themedia, subsumes a relationship between IQ and

individual achievement and between national averageIQ and national economic performance.

There is some question as to whether these relationshipsactually exist.... on average, children who score high on IQ tests do better in later life.

RE national economic performance ...

The only hard evidence comes from the Lynn-Vanhannen study. In the Summer 2001 issue of

“Mankind Quarterly” Lynn and Vanhannen presented a simple regression of per capita GDP

against average IQ ... they appear to support the assumed positive relationship between

average IQ and per capita GDP.

However, a closer look at the data reveals several weaknesses in the model.... China

with a very high average IQ of 100 but a per capita GDP lower than that of Thailand.... The

existence of these outliers suggests that the authorsmissed at least two important

variables.

They may have missed other variables....

Even if we accept the Lynn-Vanhannen correlation there is still a question as to what it

means in terms ofcausality. It may mean that nations with high average IQ achieve higher

per capita GDP by virtue of theirIQ. It could also mean that richer nations have the means

to effect higher IQ in their children. Finally, itcould mean that other perhaps genetic or

cultural variables that cause high IQ are also responsible forcausing those people to

achieve high per capita GDPIn any case, the Lynn-Vanhannen model does not apply directly to

the case of diminishing nationalaverage IQ in Thailand. The trend in national average IQ

has not been addressed at all by these authors.Their model applies only to the cross-

sectional data at a single point in time. It may be used to comparedifferent countries at

the same point in time but not the same countryat different points in time.

Incidentally, the loss in national average IQ from 1996 to 2001 was reported to be 3.1

IQ points or 0.62 IQ points per year. The loss appears more severe if one takes the so

-called “Flynn Effect” into account. During the same period, the average IQ of the world

has increased by 0.3 IQ points per year. Thailand’s IQ loss net of the Flynn Effect is

therefore 0.92 IQ points per year or 4.6 IQ points during the 5-year period. Exactly what

this loss means to Thailand as a nation is unclear. National average IQ may be a causal

agent that increases GDP and enhances our quality of life; or it may be an index that

measures the riseand fall in the quality of life; or IQ may be important to us in a way

that is not captured by the nationalaverage. There is also the possibility that IQ is

relevant only at the individual level if at all.

(author is Jamal H. Munshi, 2003 Professor, Business Administration, Sonoma State University, School of Business & Economics; Ph.D. 1991, University of Arkansas)

Tuesday, August 16, 2005

Gene Expression: Thailand Gets Serious About IQ

Bangkok's The Nation reports on Thailand's effort to get to the bottom of

its low IQ:

A project using demographic maps to identify areas of iodine-deficiency and low

intelligence are being drawn on the belief there is a connection between the two. In all,

the Department of Health and the Department of Mental Health will draw three maps in an

effort to combat low intelligence, after it a study found the average IQ level among

many youths was lower than 80.

Two of the maps will focus on iodine deficiency: one depicting the average level of iodine

in pregnant women and another showing the percentage of people who have access to iodised

salt in each area.

A third map will focus on the average IQ level among children in every province.

This of course is in line with the Copenhagen Consensus which suggested that more action

into raising cognitive abilities by combating malnutrition (an idea associated with Richard

Lynn) was one of the best ways to improve the lot of developing countries. The Nation

reported on the data that pushed this initiative a few years ago (IQ Survey 'Cause for

Alarm'):

. . . a National Health Examination Survey team released a report just before

Children's Day last month that the average IQ of Thai school children, based on tests in

1997 on 3,846 schoolchildren between six and 12 years old was a poor 91.96 . . . "When

other countries monitor the IQ scores of their children, they want them to reach their full

potential. But intelligence has never been a national policy objective

for human development in our country."

Although Thailand's IQ average falls well within the 80-95 range for Southeast Asia,

it still falls short of the average 100, achieved by developed nations and East Asian

countries such as Japan and Korea

. . . some findings of the IQ survey are too shocking to ignore. Of the children tested,

8.5 per cent could be classified as mentally retarded (IQ of below 70), compared with

the 2-3 per-cent global average . . . in the case of the North . . . the figure was

as high as 16.4 per cent.

Disease, heavy-metal poisoning and malnutrition, such as iron or iodine deficiencies, can

have serious affects on child development . . .

It's good to see a modernizing country take intelligence seriously, and hopefully their

efforts will pay off and set a model for other developing nations. The data also lend

further support to the reliability of international IQ scores. For instance, the recent

study discussed above was not included in IQ & the Wealth of Nations, because it was

released in the same year as the book (2002), but Lynn and Vanhanen did find and include an

earlier report from Thailand. The data from a 1989 sample of 8 to 10 year olds on the

Colored Progressive Matrices indicated an IQ of 91, which is the same as the 1997

score even with a decade between the two measurements. This is tyical as the reliability

correlation reported in IQ&tWoN for nations where data from more than one IQ study was

available was.

Published on Jan 11, 2002 The Nation

More children turn to selling drugs

The 50 or so participants in a seminar on children's problems all smiled

when a researcher from the Thailand Development Research Institute (TDRI) revealed that the

numbers of child labourers in factories had been dropping as a result of the expansion of

secondary schools to remote areas.

However, the smiles were soon gone when the researcher continued by saying that instead

many school students had turned to a new kind of labour as "drug agents" in the schools....

Meanwhile, a doctor from Mahidol University's National Centre for Children Development and

Family, Nittaya Kajapakdi, said besides poor management, the children themselves were a

problem.

She disclosed that Thai school children had slightly low levels of intelligence. She

referred to the university's 1997 research, which found that the average IQ of

schoolchildren was 91, while the standard level is between 90 and 110.

"Although the average is still within the standard range, it almost drops below it.

This is why they can not survive on their own in tough situations. They are unable to

think, analyse or solve problems," she said.

The university conducted a study of 4,000 school students in 33 provinces.

Nittaya demanded that the government paid more attention to children. She said children

could improve their IQ levels if the whole society helped them.

For example, she said the mass media should present only good programmes and information

that would help children develop.

The government should also provide them with constructive alternatives and schools had to

encourage them to think for themselves more.

(BTW - it is a good website called Thai Life, with section:Thai Youth issues in Thailand- unfortunately it is not updated since 2003)

[aaaaaa]

the original source of the whole issue "IQ vs GDP / Natioanl Wealth":

1st book was IQ and the Wealth of Nations

by Dr. Richard Lynn (N. Ireland) & Dr. Tatu Vanhanen (Finland)

... controversial 2002 book ... demonstrates that differences in national income (in the form of per capita gross domestic product) correlate with, and arguably attributes it to, differences in average national IQ.

The book includes the authors' estimates of average IQ scores for each country, based on their analysis of published reports; their observation that national gross domestic product per capita is correlated with IQ; and their conclusion that the IQ differences correlated with income differences by a factor of about 0.7, meaning that IQ explains more than half of the variation in per capita GDP.

The authors stated that they believe IQ is due to both genetic and environmental factors. They also stated that low GDP can cause low IQ, just as low IQ can cause low GDP.

The authors argued that it is the ethical responsibility of rich, high-IQ nations to financially assist poor, low-IQ nations, as it is the responsibility of rich citizens to assist the poor.

The book was cited several times in the popular press, notably the British conservative newspaper The Times. Because Tatu Vanhanen is the father of Matti Vanhanen, the Finnish Prime minister, his work has received wide publicity in Finland.

2nd book is very recent: Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis

... 2006 book by Richard Lynn representing the largest collection and review of the global cognitive ability data, by nine global regions,[1] surveying 620 published studies from around the world, with a total of 813,778 tested individuals ...

Like much research regarding race and intelligence, Lynn's work has been controversial. When taken as national averages, the data available, particularly regarding the developing world, is speculative due to limited sampling, year of testing, and varying type of cognitive ability test used. Lynn's survey is an expansion by nearly four times of the data collected in his 2002 IQ and the Wealth of Nations with Tatu Vanhanen....

The book subsequently discusses the reliability and validity of the measures, concluding that, though additional evidence may be required to confirm some of the racial IQ estimates, many have very high reliability in the sense that different studies give very similar results, and that they correlate highly with performance in international studies of achievement in mathematics and science and with national economic development.

interesting point is : Climate and brain size !

perhaps that's why "hot heads" tend to err more than those who're "cool headed" ?

... high IQ is associated with colder climates. Lynn examines this hypothesis in chapter 16 of Race Differences in Intelligence ...

In a separate analysis Templer and Arikawa (2006; see discussion [2]) examined this question by comparing the national IQ data from Lynn and Vanhanen (2002) with data sets that describe national average skin color and average winter and summer temperatures. They find that the strongest correlations to national IQ were −0.92 for skin color and −0.76 for average high winter temperature. They interpret this finding as strong support for IQ-climate association. Other studies using different data sets find no correlation.

[aaaaaa]

the IQ matter has moved to Headlines on The Nation:

Thai children's IQ average low

The average intelligence quotient (IQ) of Thai children, somewhere between 87 and 88 points, remains in the "low average" category when ranked internationally, Vice Minister for Education Watchara Phanchet said on Wednesday.

He said this at a seminar on how to make children smart, and cited a survey conducted in 2002 as the source of his information.

"We have to develop children both intellectually and physically because they are our country's future," Watchara said.

He was speaking to more than 800 educators, health professionals, parents and representatives of a network for disadvantaged children at the seminar held by the Mental Health Department's Rajanukul Institute.

The 2002 survey found that only 80 per cent of children under five years old had normal visual, muscular and touchperception development, he said. It also found that the average IQ of children between six and 12 was 87 points.

The average IQ for children between 13 and 18 was 88 IQ points, the study found.

In a 2001 survey, children from six to 12 were found to have low levels of patience, discipline, concentration and selfreliance, while those between 13 and 18 had insufficient creativity, analytical ability, conscience, problemsolving skills and emotional control.

Watchara said these problems were the result of parents leaving teachers in charge of their children's development. Teachers are not trained to maximise children's potential at the right age, he said.

"We plan to raise Thai children's [average] IQ to at least 100 by 2008," he said.

Mental Health Department chief ML Somchai Chakraphan said those with IQs in the 70 to 79 point range were in a borderline group as an IQ below 70 points signalled mental disability.

In a bid to boost children's IQ, Somchai said his department last year launched a five year intellectual development plan for children in 20 provinces. "We have passed on useful knowhow to nursery and kindergarten teachers," he said.

Somchai said mothers could boost their children's IQ by eating nutritious food during pregnancy and stimulating their children's development at the right age.

"Some parents tend to carry their babies in their arms all the time out of concerns that their babies might fall and hurt themselves. That's not right. If it's time for your babies to start crawling or running, let them do so because it encourages their development," he said.

The Nation

[Ijustwannateach]

It doesn't do the children of Thailand (or their families either) any good to be told that they're stupid or that low IQ means low intelligence. It won't help the educational system, either. Sigh. I'm just waiting for the government directives in the curriculum to start telling us to teach for the IQ test.

"Steven"

Edited July 19, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[chownah]

I'm surprised that there is so much interest in Thai IQ's. Just to be sure we are all talking about the same thing I would like to point out that:

A person's IQ is the score they get from taking a test or group of tests....that's all it is....the score on a test.

A person's intelligence is their ability to learn or to or to solve problems or to understand information and draw inferences from it.....etc.

An IQ test (the one you take so that you get a score....the score being your IQ) seems to mean something and it probably means something realtive to one of the many kinds of intelligences but it definitely is not a precisely focused instrument for studying individuals intellectual abilities across the board.

If you have never taken an IQ test then you do not have an IQ!!! Scary but true.

[aaaaaa]

If you have never taken an IQ test then you do not have an IQ!!! Scary but true.

life is full of paradoxes !

and more than that: this "score" in a test determines the leves of concern for popular scolars analysing finances & economics, as well as governmental institutions !

well, perhaps they have to use at least SOME criterium to start improving things? apperently this "score" gives them such.

let's hope it is some start already !