Report--Agent Assisted Retirement Extension & Re-Entry Permit

[Thailand]

As of writing there are still slots for the 29th December.

[Dante99]

I understand some people due to age, health issues or job constrictions may have difficulty getting online appointments or enduring the early morning possible stressful time at the immigration office so they opt to let a third party handle their immigration requirements but I resent does who use an agent for their convenience because this encourages agents to abuse the system by either by grabbing the limited online appointment slots or bribing immigration officers to get unofficial appointments forcing those who do the right thing to compete for limited available time after the greedy agents have grabbed theirs.

I for one am fortunate that I can still get my 2 appointments online.

Do you think it is wise or helpful to suggest that or accuse the Immigration Police of breaking the law by taking bribes?

Is there some rule that visa agents can not book appointments on line? Aren't they entitled to use that system like anybody else?

Are the agents really greedy, more so than other people in business?

Edited September 20, 2014 by Dante99

[cloudhopper]

I understand some people due to age, health issues or job constrictions may have difficulty getting online appointments or enduring the early morning possible stressful time at the immigration office so they opt to let a third party handle their immigration requirements but I resent does who use an agent for their convenience because this encourages agents to abuse the system by either by grabbing the limited online appointment slots or bribing immigration officers to get unofficial appointments forcing those who do the right thing to compete for limited available time after the greedy agents have grabbed theirs.

I for one am fortunate that I can still get my 2 appointments online.

Do you think it is wise or helpful to suggest that or accuse the Immigration Police of breaking the law by taking bribes?

Is there some rule that visa agents can not book appointments on line? Aren't they entitled to use that system like anybody else?

Are the agents really greedy, more so than other people in business?

Sure I think visa agents are entitled to use the system like everyone else - but do they? Do they make appointments and wait in the cue like everyone else? It's obvious to me they don't but that has just been my observations and experience. I don't mind people paying for services like that but IMO this particular service further inconveniences those who try to follow the rules and is barely disguised corruption. If there is in fact an official government arrangement to give priority to officially authorized agents then OK I have no problem with it and will stand corrected.

Edited September 20, 2014 by cloudhopper

[Dante99]

I understand some people due to age, health issues or job constrictions may have difficulty getting online appointments or enduring the early morning possible stressful time at the immigration office so they opt to let a third party handle their immigration requirements but I resent does who use an agent for their convenience because this encourages agents to abuse the system by either by grabbing the limited online appointment slots or bribing immigration officers to get unofficial appointments forcing those who do the right thing to compete for limited available time after the greedy agents have grabbed theirs.

I for one am fortunate that I can still get my 2 appointments online.

Do you think it is wise or helpful to suggest that or accuse the Immigration Police of breaking the law by taking bribes?

Is there some rule that visa agents can not book appointments on line? Aren't they entitled to use that system like anybody else?

Are the agents really greedy, more so than other people in business?

Sure I think visa agents are entitled to use the system like everyone else - but do they? Do they make appointments and wait in the cue like everyone else? It's obvious to me they don't but that has just been my observations and experience. I don't mind people paying for services like that but IMO this particular service further inconveniences those who try to follow the rules and is barely disguised corruption. If there is in fact an official government arrangement to give priority to officially authorized agents then OK I have no problem with it and will stand corrected.

Seems to be you have a view of the "rules" that is not shared by others. Maybe time to reconsider what the rules pragmatically are.

Money talks everywhere. Priority services for a fee are widely available. You do not seem to like what it says in this case but really it is a trivial situation relatively.

[mamborobert]

For many years I worked in a Western immigration office. We had preferential treatment for most agents, not all. If the agent screwed up then they lost their preference. NO money changed hands. It made simple business sense, one agent could come in and lodge multiple applications so you had less traffic and were doing more applications. You did not get partial or incomplete applications or wrong fees or questions all of which slows down the volume of work you could do. If an agents abused or was found to err in the process they went off this preferential system so they had a vested interest in lodging full quality applications with all necessary supporting documents, it was a form of symbiotic parasitism. Similar systems operate in the UK, USA, Australia down to agents having separate computer lodgement portals.

Edited September 20, 2014 by mamborobert

[true blue]

if people want to waste there money on a simple thing as getting a visa stamp so be it,what enoys the expat community or a percentage of it is the grabbing of the all the slots available on the imm web site surely they can not have that many customers,and what do they do with the ones they dont use,bet they dont cancell,there just opportunism sharks,and are more a hinder than a help.

[hml367]

Does anyone have any evidence that visa agents are "abusing" the online queue system?

If they book an appointment with a client's name it is just the same as the client making the appointment... the time slot is still taken. If a visa agent does this in that manner, then they would have to look for the appointments one client at a time. Of course they could have multiple people looking for time slots. It is still the same.... if the clients were doing it themselves, they would still have to look for the slots and the competition for the time slots would still be there.

Anyone have any concrete evidence the visa agents are doing anything wrong?

TrueBlue, what is the procedure to cancel an appointment made online? In the past I tried to cancel, including sending an email, and it was not possible.

Do you have any idea how many people (not visa agents) that have made appointments do not actually show up? I am just wondering about that. I have seen people post that an Immigration Officer went on a "break" because someone didn't show up for an appointment. I have never seen it myself. I am not sure how the person posting that the officer went on break knew exactly what had happened. Maybe it was just conjecture.

Edited September 20, 2014 by hml367

[hml367]

if people want to waste there money on a simple thing as getting a visa stamp so be it,what enoys the expat community or a percentage of it is the grabbing of the all the slots available on the imm web site surely they can not have that many customers,and what do they do with the ones they dont use,bet they dont cancell,there just opportunism sharks,and are more a hinder than a help.

Perhaps people using visa agents (I do use an agent now) don't consider it a waste of money. I sure do not.

Also, don't assume that every person using a visa agent does not know how to do the whole thing themselves.

[fcgprg]

I for one did my own for 4 years ,then decided to use an agent . I would think that the agents free up a lot of time for the officers by having everything in order for each client when they arrive at immigration. Also all the extra people that would have to go to immigration each day.

[hml367]

I for one did my own for 4 years ,then decided to use an agent . I would think that the agents free up a lot of time for the officers by having everything in order for each client when they arrive at immigration. Also all the extra people that would have to go to immigration each day.

I notice a lot of posters make a lot of comments and excuses why "their" way, either agent or by themselves, is the best. As in a lot of cases, they don't seem to accept that people have different ways of thinking.

Like you, I did my own for some years. Now I don't care to "mingle" for hours at Immigration.

Edited September 20, 2014 by hml367

[vagabond48]

I understand some people due to age, health issues or job constrictions may have difficulty getting online appointments or enduring the early morning possible stressful time at the immigration office so they opt to let a third party handle their immigration requirements but I resent does who use an agent for their convenience because this encourages agents to abuse the system by either by grabbing the limited online appointment slots or bribing immigration officers to get unofficial appointments forcing those who do the right thing to compete for limited available time after the greedy agents have grabbed theirs.

I for one am fortunate that I can still get my 2 appointments online.

Do you think it is wise or helpful to suggest that or accuse the Immigration Police of breaking the law by taking bribes?

Is there some rule that visa agents can not book appointments on line? Aren't they entitled to use that system like anybody else?

Are the agents really greedy, more so than other people in business?

You are probably right, perhaps the word "bribe" is extreme. How about the offer a gift of appreciation for helpful assistance.

Please enlighten me how the OP can come to the agent's office on Tuesday and the agent can secure an appointment for the next day at "3PM" sharp. Perhaps the agent is able to part the mighty Ping river as well. Yes the agent can use the online system if it is time for him/her to renew their own extension. As I understand, it is one appointment for one person.

Edited September 20, 2014 by vagabond48

[vagabond48]

It has been mentioned that other countries give visa agents preferential treatment but do these Immigration offices have staff whose main priority is to service agents? If the answer is yes then that system would work pretty well. If these offices did not then if several agents came in with a combined 50 visa requests, that may very well shut down that office for the whole day so for all you nice folks who have traveled 1 hour to come here, you all have a nice ride back home and try us again tomorrow.

[Thailand]

I understand some people due to age, health issues or job constrictions may have difficulty getting online appointments or enduring the early morning possible stressful time at the immigration office so they opt to let a third party handle their immigration requirements but I resent does who use an agent for their convenience because this encourages agents to abuse the system by either by grabbing the limited online appointment slots or bribing immigration officers to get unofficial appointments forcing those who do the right thing to compete for limited available time after the greedy agents have grabbed theirs.

I for one am fortunate that I can still get my 2 appointments online.

Do you think it is wise or helpful to suggest that or accuse the Immigration Police of breaking the law by taking bribes?

Is there some rule that visa agents can not book appointments on line? Aren't they entitled to use that system like anybody else?

Are the agents really greedy, more so than other people in business?

You are probably right, perhaps the word "bribe" is extreme. How about the offer a gift of appreciation for helpful assistance.

Please enlighten me how the OP can come to the agent's office on Tuesday and the agent can secure an appointment for the next day at "3PM" sharp. Perhaps the agent is able to part the mighty Ping river as well. Yes the agent can use the online system if it is time for him/her to renew their own extension. As I understand, it is one appointment for one person.

I guess it would be interesting to know if the names of those going for the appointments match those on the appointment register?

[sante]

When I first started this topic I suspected it would soon degenerate into an anti-agent diatribe by the usual group of complainers.

But let me clarify--I didn't have a 3 pm appointment with Immigration but rather with the agent. When I arrived she was there already and when I asked her how long the process would take she said she didn't know. It's possible she had come hours earlier to submit my documents. Last year when I drove to Immigration with the agent I had been told my paperwork had been submitted beforehand.

With the accusations of bribery, misuse of appointment slots and other irregularities, no one has offered any proof. Just the typical forum spewing that trivializes most topics and makes those of us who want to share helpful information think twice about doing it here.

[Dante99]

I understand some people due to age, health issues or job constrictions may have difficulty getting online appointments or enduring the early morning possible stressful time at the immigration office so they opt to let a third party handle their immigration requirements but I resent does who use an agent for their convenience because this encourages agents to abuse the system by either by grabbing the limited online appointment slots or bribing immigration officers to get unofficial appointments forcing those who do the right thing to compete for limited available time after the greedy agents have grabbed theirs.

I for one am fortunate that I can still get my 2 appointments online.

Do you think it is wise or helpful to suggest that or accuse the Immigration Police of breaking the law by taking bribes?

Is there some rule that visa agents can not book appointments on line? Aren't they entitled to use that system like anybody else?

Are the agents really greedy, more so than other people in business?

You are probably right, perhaps the word "bribe" is extreme. How about the offer a gift of appreciation for helpful assistance.

Please enlighten me how the OP can come to the agent's office on Tuesday and the agent can secure an appointment for the next day at "3PM" sharp. Perhaps the agent is able to part the mighty Ping river as well. Yes the agent can use the online system if it is time for him/her to renew their own extension. As I understand, it is one appointment for one person.

I will not try to enlighten you about the issue you raise. It seems not to matter really, and there are reasonable explainations.

Your drama about parting the river and subsequent post about what if agents brought in so many forms that immigration shut down for the day are too much fantasy for me to bother with.

You want to deal with life here get pragmatic.

[luther]

Quick! There are eight slots open on December 30th

Sept 21 at 7:40 AM

[anselpixel]

I use the people on the upstairs level of Powerhouse Gym off Nimman Road.

Very reasonable annual fee, and they take care of everything I need to have done throughout the year.

It's worth a hundred bucks or so to me not to go out to the airport office every 90 days, and my annual appearance for the extension never takes more than ten minutes.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

And yet nobody minds that in using agents they are committing corruption-by-proxy.

But hey, we can just pay a couple hundred 'bucks' and the agent throws some of that to immigration officers to make it speedy for them too.. easy money all around.

Walking ATMs-a-plenty!

[mamborobert]

And yet nobody minds that in using agents they are committing corruption-by-proxy.

But hey, we can just pay a couple hundred 'bucks' and the agent throws some of that to immigration officers to make it speedy for them too.. easy money all around.

Walking ATMs-a-plenty!

Winnie...I have always liked your posts but this is unwarranted and unsubstantiated.

A service is being offered and utilised.

If you have proof of any corruption then I am sure that the good General, Prime Minister would welcome you trotting down to local Police, Imigration or other appropriate authority instead of a baseless allegation here.

You forget that when you make these slurs they are not at Thai Immigration alone.

Iam not corrupt. I am not commiting corruption by proxy.

God forbid you start a new trend and substantiate allegations and report them accordingly.

Your post really is below your usual.

Edited September 22, 2014 by mamborobert

[fcgprg]

And yet nobody minds that in using agents they are committing corruption-by-proxy.

But hey, we can just pay a couple hundred 'bucks' and the agent throws some of that to immigration officers to make it speedy for them too.. easy money all around.

Walking ATMs-a-plenty!

Proof please then i can stop using them. If you do not have any proof maybe the Thai libel laws should be observed in my opinion.

[FolkGuitar]

With all the paperwork required for visa renewal, it would be patently obvious to anyone sitting in the waiting area if a Thai person showed up with a three-inch thick bundle of papers and sat with one Immigration agent for two or three hours while they processed several different visa applications.

Has anyone seen this?

The Thai Customs Office is overworked and understaffed too. Almost all incoming packages with valuation over 1,000 baht must go through Customs and an import duty applied. However, UPS, DHL, and FED-Ex all have their own separate Customs handling agreements with the Thai government, which frees up a tremendous amount of time and paperwork for which the government is quite thankful. These packages are assessed by private agents rather than Customs officials, and the proper import duties applied, collected, and (I assume) are passed on to the government in full. Is one side paying for this privilege? Would this be considered corruption? I doubt it.

Why is it so hard to imagine that there is a similar situation set in place for the over-worked Immigration Office.

Why do people assume that the Visa agents even NEED to make appointments in the same manner as individuals?

Perhaps all the paperwork is simply handed in one day, dealt with by a back-room clerk, then if needed, foreigners are called in on another day for their 5-10 minute face-to-face with an Immigration officer. That would sure save a heck of a lot of time for everyone.

Edited September 22, 2014 by FolkGuitar

[northernjohn]

With all the paperwork required for visa renewal, it would be patently obvious to anyone sitting in the waiting area if a Thai person showed up with a three-inch thick bundle of papers and sat with one Immigration agent for two or three hours while they processed several different visa applications.

Has anyone seen this?

The Thai Customs Office is overworked and understaffed too. Almost all incoming packages with valuation over 1,000 baht must go through Customs and an import duty applied. However, UPS, DHL, and FED-Ex all have their own separate Customs handling agreements with the Thai government, which frees up a tremendous amount of time and paperwork for which the government is quite thankful. These packages are assessed by private agents rather than Customs officials, and the proper import duties applied, collected, and (I assume) are passed on to the government in full. Is one side paying for this privilege? Would this be considered corruption? I doubt it.

Why is it so hard to imagine that there is a similar situation set in place for the over-worked Immigration Office.

Why do people assume that the Visa agents even NEED to make appointments in the same manner as individuals?

Perhaps all the paperwork is simply handed in one day, dealt with by a back-room clerk, then if needed, foreigners are called in on another day for their 5-10 minute face-to-face with an Immigration officer. That would sure save a heck of a lot of time for everyone.

What you say makes perfect sense. The one sticking point is that it cost an extra 5,500 baht.

The last time I renewed my extension I got lucky. I was going to the Makro in Hong Dong and decided that I would just stop in and see what they said. I had just picked up my income verification and was figuring on going in the next day. So I decided to stop in on the way at 9:30 in the morning fully expecting to be told to come back tomorrow. I was told to come back at 3:00 which I did and got number 60. I mentioned to the officer processing my paper work that it seemed strange that I got in that day. He said they generally handle about 50 people a day in addition to the ones with an appointment. Today they had a group of 10 come in all at once and there was no problem with them every thing was in order. This allowed them to handle more clients that day. As it was they did 62 that day.

[cloudhopper]

With all the paperwork required for visa renewal, it would be patently obvious to anyone sitting in the waiting area if a Thai person showed up with a three-inch thick bundle of papers and sat with one Immigration agent for two or three hours while they processed several different visa applications.

Has anyone seen this?

The Thai Customs Office is overworked and understaffed too. Almost all incoming packages with valuation over 1,000 baht must go through Customs and an import duty applied. However, UPS, DHL, and FED-Ex all have their own separate Customs handling agreements with the Thai government, which frees up a tremendous amount of time and paperwork for which the government is quite thankful. These packages are assessed by private agents rather than Customs officials, and the proper import duties applied, collected, and (I assume) are passed on to the government in full. Is one side paying for this privilege? Would this be considered corruption? I doubt it.

Why is it so hard to imagine that there is a similar situation set in place for the over-worked Immigration Office.

Why do people assume that the Visa agents even NEED to make appointments in the same manner as individuals?

Perhaps all the paperwork is simply handed in one day, dealt with by a back-room clerk, then if needed, foreigners are called in on another day for their 5-10 minute face-to-face with an Immigration officer. That would sure save a heck of a lot of time for everyone.

It was patently obvious to me personally when my processing was interrupted and delayed 30 minutes while the immigration officer processed 3 passports handed to him mid-session by a smiling agent who strode right up to the desk unbidden. This however did not occur in the CM office.

Whether it is considered corruption or not is irrelevant to me. I can afford to eat at the finest restaurants but nobody else is inconvenienced if that's how i choose to spend my money.

And BTW FedEx and rest are in it up to their necks with over-worked customs applying the "proper" duties. Of course they will deny it strenuously. Judging by some of the posts on this thread the Thais knew exactly what they were doing when they made it a crime to say anything "considered damaging", regardless of its truth.

And yes I know that's just the way it is here blah blah, and no I'm not leaving.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

And yet nobody minds that in using agents they are committing corruption-by-proxy.

But hey, we can just pay a couple hundred 'bucks' and the agent throws some of that to immigration officers to make it speedy for them too.. easy money all around.

Walking ATMs-a-plenty!

Winnie...I have always liked your posts but this is unwarranted and unsubstantiated.

A service is being offered and utilised.

If you have proof of any corruption then I am sure that the good General, Prime Minister would welcome you trotting down to local Police, Imigration or other appropriate authority instead of a baseless allegation here.

You forget that when you make these slurs they are not at Thai Immigration alone.

Iam not corrupt. I am not commiting corruption by proxy.

God forbid you start a new trend and substantiate allegations and report them accordingly.

Your post really is below your usual.

Just injecting some liveliness to the discussion. Anyway I could have worded it differently of course, without challenging people's use of these services, which are of course legal to use.

Proof please then i can stop using them. If you do not have any proof maybe the Thai libel laws should be observed in my opinion.

I'm not suggesting you stop using them! However from indirect personal experience, it's typical for people and organizations that frequently have business to do at the immigration office, make sure that they have a good relationship with the people there. I was yanking some chains by calling that corruption, (which in the strictest, most un-Thai sense it would be) but really it's just business as usual.

It does mean that people who don't use agents end up spending a longer time there, compared to applications where there is money in the air.

Edited September 22, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[mesquite]

Just injecting some liveliness to the discussion.

"Trolling", eh?

Edited September 22, 2014 by mesquite

[sante]

Good try, FolkGuitar, MamboRobert and all others who have offered intelligent, rational explanations. But they won't affect the continual complainers--after all, those people need to vent their personal anger somewhere, even if the cause of that anger occurred many years ago in another Thai district.

And actually, I think they're the ones who are getting paid off--by the Mental Health Practitioners of Chiang Mai (if there are any). When clients come in with stress related problems caused by frustration, disgust and dismay at the lack of homo sapien reasoning abilities and upon questioning, admit they follow Thai Visa forum on a regular basis, those complainers may be getting a commission for each new patient or a percentage of the therapists fees.

[hml367]

Good try, FolkGuitar, MamboRobert and all others who have offered intelligent, rational explanations. But they won't affect the continual complainers--after all, those people need to vent their personal anger somewhere, even if the cause of that anger occurred many years ago in another Thai district.

And actually, I think they're the ones who are getting paid off--by the Mental Health Practitioners of Chiang Mai (if there are any). When clients come in with stress related problems caused by frustration, disgust and dismay at the lack of homo sapien reasoning abilities and upon questioning, admit they follow Thai Visa forum on a regular basis, those complainers may be getting a commission for each new patient or a percentage of the therapists fees.

+1

I repeat post #40.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Good try, FolkGuitar, MamboRobert and all others who have offered intelligent, rational explanations. But they won't affect the continual complainers--after all, those people need to vent their personal anger somewhere, even if the cause of that anger occurred many years ago in another Thai district.

And actually, I think they're the ones who are getting paid off--by the Mental Health Practitioners of Chiang Mai (if there are any). When clients come in with stress related problems caused by frustration, disgust and dismay at the lack of homo sapien reasoning abilities and upon questioning, admit they follow Thai Visa forum on a regular basis, those complainers may be getting a commission for each new patient or a percentage of the therapists fees.

Have you seen any complaining in this topic?

(Other than Northernjohn, of course, but he was mostly complaining about his own inability to Google, not the concept of using agents. )

I've seen the usual supply of cynicism, or realism perhaps, starting in reply #3, but 'venting personal anger'?

And as a special service to Northernjohn: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chiang+mai+land+visa+agent&l=1

Edited September 22, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[hml367]

Good one, WTK ! (that is serious, not cynical)

Now even I can find it.... and I am always confused.

[FolkGuitar]

With all the paperwork required for visa renewal, it would be patently obvious to anyone sitting in the waiting area if a Thai person showed up with a three-inch thick bundle of papers and sat with one Immigration agent for two or three hours while they processed several different visa applications.

Has anyone seen this?

The Thai Customs Office is overworked and understaffed too. Almost all incoming packages with valuation over 1,000 baht must go through Customs and an import duty applied. However, UPS, DHL, and FED-Ex all have their own separate Customs handling agreements with the Thai government, which frees up a tremendous amount of time and paperwork for which the government is quite thankful. These packages are assessed by private agents rather than Customs officials, and the proper import duties applied, collected, and (I assume) are passed on to the government in full. Is one side paying for this privilege? Would this be considered corruption? I doubt it.

Why is it so hard to imagine that there is a similar situation set in place for the over-worked Immigration Office.

Why do people assume that the Visa agents even NEED to make appointments in the same manner as individuals?

Perhaps all the paperwork is simply handed in one day, dealt with by a back-room clerk, then if needed, foreigners are called in on another day for their 5-10 minute face-to-face with an Immigration officer. That would sure save a heck of a lot of time for everyone.

What you say makes perfect sense. The one sticking point is that it cost an extra 5,500 baht.............

Why is that a sticking point? It has nothing to do with Thai Immigration. It's a fee charged by a business to provide you with a service.

The Visa agent that I use has a large office and a dozen Thai employees. I'm sure they have to pay their employees, pay rent, pay insurances, advertising, etc., etc., etc. I know that when I ran a business here in Thailand it cost me a small fortune in governmental fees to keep everything legal. At the same time, they have to make a profit or they won't stay in business. Nothing illegal, immoral, nor illogical about this. So far, no one has come forward to tell us that they saw a Thai hand over a large stack of paperwork and sit, tying up an Immigration Officer for a few hours. One poster mentioned someone handing three passports to an Immigration Officer, but we have no idea 'why' this was done, or 'why' it took precedence over his own application work. For all we know, the person handing in the passports was a police officer who confiscated them and was turning them in. We simply do NOT know the facts.

What we DO know is that no one has come forward to tell us that they actually saw a visa agent hand in a stack of paperwork and tie up an Immigration Officer for a few hours. We DO know that no one has any valid information that visa agents pay off Immigration. Just saying the words doesn't make it so. We DO know that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office is overworked and in need of more staff. Perhaps... just perhaps... if the visa agents were NOT helping reduce to congestion in the office, it might be even worse...