Asian suspects raped English tourist

[ChoakMyDee]

I was a copper for 35 + years and I'm totally gobsmacked at the way the Thai Police have/are handling this. They appear to go public with every bit of information they acquire, without holding anything in reserve (having an Ace up their sleeve)to counter bogus alibis, red-herrings etc.

Do the general public NEED to know EVERY intimate detail ?

Serious question: Do the RTP go through ANY type of training or are they just given a uniform, a gun and told to go out there and be seen?

If I had performed my duties the way the RTP do, I would be ashamed to admit that I was once a Police Officer.

I AM DISGUSTED WITH, NEEDLESS TO SAY, THE INCIDENT BUT ALSO THE PROFESSIONALISM OF BOTH THE POLICE AND THE MEDIA.

You just arrived? Is this your first news story regarding the Thai police? Calm down.

[Credo]

DNA is a tool and, like all tools, it is one part of what is needed to solve a crime. DNA may not show who actually killed these people, but they eliminate a whole bunch of people.

Unfortunately, there has been so much contamination of the crime scene that nearly anything the police come up with might be suspect.

[inwardglee]

It is new to me that a DNA test would be able to determine whether we are Asian or Cauasian. See, there is not much difference. Africans btw call us all "whites".

So, here from a report about DNA among races:

"Scientists have found that 85% of all human genetic variation exists within human populations while only 15% exists between all the different ethnic groups."

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask337

I would be happy to get any more information to that.

[Richard W]

Yeah, the use of that additional term is a bit weird. They should just have said "Asian."

The word 'Asian' is far too vague. 'Mongoloid' is old fashioned. In so far as the concept is dodgy, 'Southern Mongoloid' might be a better term, except that if all that is known is haplotype O, that would leave Koreans in the frame. It does seem that Genghiz Khan's male-line descendants are out of the frame.

DNA can not determine race, it can only identify traits of various groups of people, such as Asians (epicanthic folds), Europeans (blue/green eyes).

It sounds more as though they were looking for the male lineage, in which there is considerable non-academic interest and thus commercial availability. Technically it can't determine race, though some haplotypes have limited spatial distributions.

All we can actually say might be 'probably Mongoloid', though more detailed information might be available.

[transam]

It seems there was a mob of 'em, in LOS everybody "talks" at sometime, there are no secrets for long, a piss up, a card game, whatever, someone will talk and someone will want the reward cash.

[doremifasol]

This whole article is offensive in many ways..........

I am so very sorry for the families of the victims. R.I.P

The offensive term "Mongoloid" has also been used and I wonder why.

In modern English, the use of mongol (and related forms) is unacceptable

and is considered offensive.

[inwardglee]

One more thing: Semen found in abdomen and vagina … So two different necrophiles were active? In a way hard to imagine …

Has it been possible to see different DNA?

I know these are ugly questions, but they just go through the mind … and as long as authorities keep disclosing, we guess they should know more …

[Credo]

It is new to me that a DNA test would be able to determine whether we are Asian or Cauasian. See, there is not much difference. Africans btw call us all "whites".

So, here from a report about DNA among races:

"Scientists have found that 85% of all human genetic variation exists within human populations while only 15% exists between all the different ethnic groups."

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask337

I would be happy to get any more information to that.

Even though we have fewer differences in our DNA, there are certain markers in the DNA that show a likelihood that a person is of one ethnic group rather than another. It is looking at these patterns that would give a clue that the DNA is more likely to come from one group rather than another group.

If you look at the occasional emergency threads for blood donations, this is sometimes because it is a type of blood that is rare among Asians but much more common among Caucasians.

[sae57]

I certainly agree on the sensitivity issue to the family. It's way over the top. The press in Thailand has to learn some civility in reporting on such matters. The family already asked for sensitivity but I guess it didn't do much good.

Based on the results, why, may I ask, were the authorities testing women? It's all very bizarre. With all the insensitive graphic details, I have still never seen it disclosed that the blood on the hoe matched the victims' DNA. Any fingerprints perhaps?

Lastly, I haven't seen the racial classification 'Mongoloid' used in decades. It's all very, very bizarre and extremely sad for the families of the victims.

Looking at women isn't quite as bizarre as it seems. A number of years in Denver Colorado, USA, there was a husband and wife team convicted of kidnapping a woman for rape and murder--and almost certainly had done so before...

"Mongoloid" is a left-over, discredited category from the 19th century when some racialist came up with the "three great races": caucasion, mongoloid, and negroid (in the Thai press they've actually spelled out "mongloid" and "caucasoid" phonetically, as though they think that sounds more scientific). What they mean is simply "Asian"--but "racial" boundaries are so ill-defined that the designation covers a /lot/ of territory. There's been much conflicting info in the Thai press re FBI testing and the capabilities of the Thai labs.

[Oww]

If there's any tiny speck of a silver lining from the Kirsty Jones case, it's that the police

have used up the old; 'farang murderer bought sperm from a thai ladyboy and planted it on/in the victim'.

Even Thai police wouldn't possibly bust that whopper out twice in a row...

[inwardglee]

The offensive term "Mongoloid" has also been used and I wonder why.

In modern English, the use of mongol (and related forms) is unacceptable

and is considered offensive.

There was a man: he called a chair a table, and then the table a window. And no one understood him. (Peter Bichsel)

Sir, as long as science and with it English language has not renamed the old terms, to find less offensive/racial and better terms, the official antropoligical terms for the basic four races are still in use:

a) negroid, could be renamed afroid …

mongoloid, could be renamed … austro-asian

c) caucasoid …

d) australoid …

Yet, it is now really not about that. At the moment, the former terms are still in use in anthropology.

It is unfortunately so that there has never been a real clean-up in terms for races. Myself, being named as cacasoid, see, that this term is just theoretic, science is certain that the europids did not orginate in the Caucasus …

[Gecko123]

Do the people on this thread who are second guessing the police at every turn do the same thing whenever there is a crime committed back in their home country? I doubt it.

It really strikes me that there is an element of racism in play here when people who obviously have no background in law enforcement or criminal investigations think they are automatically smarter than the local police.

This crime occurred approx. one week ago. To my eye the investigation has been progressing at about the same pace as one might expect a similar investigation in the US or Great Britain to progress.

I just think the police deserve more credit and respect than they are being shown on this website.

Just my two cents.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Gecko123

[tomyumchai]

But... police said a thai would never commit such crime?

maybe they had already been reminded by mr koh tao that a thai could not commit such a crime?

[transam]

Do the people on this thread who are second guessing the police at every turn do the same thing whenever there is a crime committed back in their home country? I doubt it.

It really strikes me that there is an element of racism in play here when people who obviously have no background in law enforcement or criminal investigations think they are automatically smarter than the local police.

This crime occurred approx. one week ago. To my eye the investigation has been progressing at about the same pace as one might expect a similar crime in the US or Great Britain to progress.

I just think the police deserve more credit and respect than they are being shown on this website.

Just my two cents.

How long you lived here...?...........

[englishoak]

Do the people on this thread who are second guessing the police at every turn do the same thing whenever there is a crime committed back in their home country? I doubt it.

It really strikes me that there is an element of racism in play here when people who obviously have no background in law enforcement or criminal investigations think they are automatically smarter than the local police.

This crime occurred approx. one week ago. To my eye the investigation has been progressing at about the same pace as one might expect a similar investigation in the US or Great Britain to progress.

I just think the police deserve more credit and respect than they are being shown on this website.

Just my two cents.

You are joking i hope.

[Credo]

I believe the DNA testing will be done at a lab in Singapore.

[Thunder26]

This whole article is offensive in many ways..........

I am so very sorry for the families of the victims. R.I.P

The offensive term "Mongoloid" has also been used and I wonder why.

In modern English, the use of mongol (and related forms) is unacceptable

and is considered offensive.

Mongoloid is not always offensive. In scientific world it relates to east Asian people as a race.

[heyexile]

Lead story on Sky news this eve. They report the Police Commissioner announcing the DNA samples were sent to Singapore and the new results come from a specialist DNA lab in Singapore. Correction. Just watched Sky News lead Bulletin again. Police Commissioner announced samples had now been sent to specialist DNA lab in Singapore to determine further details like height, eye and hair colour. They must be good in Singapore. Sky showing clear CCTV footage of poor Hannah and friends on the night. They are modestly dressed, smart beach bar area casual. Certainly not parading in bikinis or acting provocatively. So terribly sad.

Police will request help from the United States' Federation Bureau of Investigation to test semen found in the body of a female British backpacker brutally murdered on the resort island of Koh Tao this week.

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang, while the FBI had "sophisticated technology".

"We will ask the FBI to help identify the DNA in the semen we found - whether it belonged to an Asian or European," he said yesterday.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761855-police-seek-help-from-fbi-on-dna/#entry8410547

Today:

Royal Thai Police commissioner revealed Saturday that latest DNA examination has now confirmed Asian suspects responsible for the rape and murder of the English tourist in Koh Tao.

Pol Gen Somyot Phunphanmuang disclosed the latest test of DNA samples collected from semen found inside the vagina and annal of Ms Hannah Witheridge, 23, showed they belonged to Mongoloid people or Asians.

[Smurkster]

Do the Police actually believe themselves when they say "No Thai Could commit such a crime"???

[coffeeman]

But... police said a thai would never commit such crime?

the police never said that!

and the thai government execute plenty of thais every year who commit serious crimes.

remember the guy they caught last year who was that child rapist killer? thats just one which comes to mind.

the thai police know their people are capable of doing it. they just dont like it when its done to foreigners!

[FiestyFarang]

I think it is pretty obvious where sperm would be found and does not need more physical details, showing no sensitivity to the feelings of her family and friends. More respect needed.

[sae57]

I read earlier that a cigarette butt not only contained DNA that matched semen in her body and that this butt had been shared by more than one person but that traces of lipstick were also found on the butt.

I've seen almost no one take up the case of the lipstick traces. Was this Hannah's lipstick? It should be fairly easy to confirm from her belongings. If so, then it suggests that she had social contact with her murderers before she was killed.So now the police need to find out who was in the area at the time by cross-questioning witnesses and trying to track everybody's movements on that night.

I read in the Thai language press that the cigarette butt had Hannah's DNA as well as someone else's. That report did not say that the other DNA matched the semen or anything else, but did say indeed that the police thought that she may have have had a conversation with her murderers.

[Credo]

Do the people on this thread who are second guessing the police at every turn do the same thing whenever there is a crime committed back in their home country? I doubt it.

It really strikes me that there is an element of racism in play here when people who obviously have no background in law enforcement or criminal investigations think they are automatically smarter than the local police.

This crime occurred approx. one week ago. To my eye the investigation has been progressing at about the same pace as one might expect a similar investigation in the US or Great Britain to progress.

I just think the police deserve more credit and respect than they are being shown on this website.

Just my two cents.

Whether or not it is progressing at the same speed is debatable, but in most developed countries, the police would spend their time actually investigating and less time talking to the press and idle speculation. They would also have secured the crime scene and evidence that was gathered would have a chain of custody. Heaven only knows how many people walked around the crime scene, took pictures and handled stuff.

One spokesperson should be appointed and that is the only person who talks to the press. They should also make sure that any information given out doesn't prejudice the case or allow the perpetrators to figure out how close they really are.

[Smurkster]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Right, so the suspects are of the Mongoloid race, and not Caucasians. Okay, not all Americans are Caucasians (Caucasians are people with European ancestry, or who are indigenous to Europe).

Basically, the guys who did this might be Chinese from America, or indeed, Chinese from Britain or Europe. It doesn't actually mean that they are Thai or Chinese/Thais.

possibly, but I'd be willing to bet money that at the end of the day, it will turn out the culprits are Thai...just makes sense, mongoloid DNA, murder happened in Thailand, put two and two together, sure there could be an off chance it was Korean/Japanese tourist, or something like that, but what are really the chances of that?

[JoeLing]

But... police said a thai would never commit such crime?

.

Sorry mate, you're twisting words.

No one said Thais would never commit such a crime.

What was said is: "can't BELIEVE a Thai would commit such a horrible crime"

can't believe.jpg

"On arriving the day after the murders, the senior police officer on the island assured us the culprit could not have been a Thai person."

"No Thai could possibly commit such a crime, he said, forgetting the equally ghastly murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton in 2006, by, it turned out, two Thai fishermen."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29262496

One senior officer told the BBC he did not believe a Thai person could have committed such a crime.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29217490

www.vip2.co.uk

http://www.samuitimes.com/

……

and an other 20 links from the BKKPost to ThaiVisa

Same, I never believed I ever would have a motorbike accident - but I did.

I never believed my son would pass A levels - but he did

and I never believed I would spend most of my life in Thailand - but I am.

Once upon a time I believed in Santa Claus, I believed in Easter Bunnies and ghosts under my bed but .....

[FangFerang]

OMG -- the rapists might be Thai.....now that has never happened before.

[Smurkster]

just another incident adding to the long slippery slope of decline in tourists this country will see in the upcoming years...they can't get their s*** together and they WILL see a detrimental effect to their economy/tourism sector. First they couldn't get their political sh** in order, that's fine that's on them, not really too much for foreign tourists to be worried about. When something like a grizzly murder happens and the world sees not only the incompetence of the law enforcement involved but also insensitive media coverage, THAT is a reason to change your travel plans to Mui Ne beach Vietnam or Ngapali beach in Burma....

I have friends coming to visit me here next year...I have already decided that for there two week trip the only place in Thailand we are going to visit is Suvarnabhumi when I pick them up, from there it will be to Laos, Vietnam and Burma.....much more interesting anyway

Edited September 20, 2014 by Smurkster

[metisdead]

An off topic deflection post has been removed. This is not related to the Rotherham case in the UK.

[Number 3]

One of the news sites advised that David is seen walking on CCTV footage both to and away from the beach area.

I am advised that he looked to be carrying food and water.

It also seems that no CCTV footage can place these two together. Perhaps they did meet up and chat at a bar but it's such a small island that over the course of a few days there I am sure that you would get to know most of the people there.

Just happened they met each other on this night -according to witnesses.

David appears to be a really big guy. Tall fit and well built.

I can't see any Thai taking on this guy unless they were in a gang. If at the end of the night David was picking up food and water. Did he pick it up from a 7/11? And not the actions of someone who is planning to head out to the beach to hook up with a relative stranger. More the actions of someone who was heading home and making sure there was water for the morning.

All these items it appears were missing from the scene. His underpants sunglasses wallet probably a phone and shoes and supplies. The sandy coloured shorts that the Thai looking man seems to be wearing would have been very difficult to see in the sand at night and also he doesn't appear to be carrying anything.

It would make sense that the perpetrators would take the loot or would throw it into the ocean. Unless there are bins located right where it took place.

I am wondering though is it possible that Hannah had met up with some friendly Thai guy for a chat and a cigarette ...and his friends came and things started to unravel. Hannah started screaming and David ran down to help her? Western woman yelling in English and he was on the path connected to the beach so he would have heard everything I m sure. He could have been confronting and this walloped by a friend from the side in the dark. He s dropped to the ground and then walloped again straight the back of the head and probably 3 guys threw him into the ocean. 2 couldn't have carried his bulk. One or two others were attacking and raping the girl.

All speculation I am aware but certainly worth pondering I believe.

[iReason]

But... police said a thai would never commit such crime?

the police never said that!

and the thai government execute plenty of thais every year who commit serious crimes.

remember the guy they caught last year who was that child rapist killer? thats just one which comes to mind.

the thai police know their people are capable of doing it. they just dont like it when its done to foreigners!

"On arriving the day after the murders, the senior police officer on the island assured us the culprit could not have been a Thai person."

"No Thai could possibly commit such a crime, he said, forgetting the equally ghastly murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton in 2006, by, it turned out, two Thai fishermen."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29262496