Asian suspects raped English tourist

[Triplebank999]

This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

Yes...........Absolutely no need to mention...publicly.

So why are you doing it?

Edited September 20, 2014 by Triplebank999

[blu3]

One thing to note is the guy that David shakes hands with on the CCTV is wearing black pants, and there are black pants with a belt among the clothing strewn on the beach near his body.

what CCTV is this?.... link?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808

I've mentioned this previously but CCTV clearly shows that there was a sizeable group of foreign friends out with Hannah and David that night.

Have the police or media spoken to their friends about any out of the ordinary events that happened during that night? I may have missed them but I have not read any snippets of interviews from friends on Koh Tao at the time. This seems unusual?

[Thai at Heart]

I certainly agree on the sensitivity issue to the family. It's way over the top. The press in Thailand has to learn some civility in reporting on such matters. The family already asked for sensitivity but I guess it didn't do much good.

Based on the results, why, may I ask, were the authorities testing women? It's all very bizarre. With all the insensitive graphic details, I have still never seen it disclosed that the blood on the hoe matched the victims' DNA. Any fingerprints perhaps?

Lastly, I haven't seen the racial classification 'Mongoloid' used in decades. It's all very, very bizarre and extremely sad for the families of the victims.

Looking at women isn't quite as bizarre as it seems. A number of years in Denver Colorado, USA, there was a husband and wife team convicted of kidnapping a woman for rape and murder--and almost certainly had done so before...

"Mongoloid" is a left-over, discredited category from the 19th century when some racialist came up with the "three great races": caucasion, mongoloid, and negroid (in the Thai press they've actually spelled out "mongloid" and "caucasoid" phonetically, as though they think that sounds more scientific). What they mean is simply "Asian"--but "racial" boundaries are so ill-defined that the designation covers a /lot/ of territory. There's been much conflicting info in the Thai press re FBI testing and the capabilities of the Thai labs.

Not as rare as it seems.

As a percentage of all these horrendous types of crimes, it is rare. Rhats why when it does happen it causes shock.

[JulianLS]

EDIT: OK just read post #43 form Heijoshin confirming this - probably knows more about it than most here, SHould have read the rest of thread before posting! I'm guessing New Zealand forensic expertise must be at least equal to Thailand's, so if they can't do it, how can the Thais?

Well you are sticking your head in the sand if you believe one post alone. Alas that poster seems to know nothing about DNA analysls.....

Why do you think he knows more about it than most here? I would have said the opposite. Interested to hear your logic.....

How about you try reading some of the other posts....no offence

I told you: I looked in three different text books of forensic DNA analysis, published in 2005, 2007 and 2013, and found no reference to definitive tests of ethnicity, merely that research was in progress but not reliable enough yet to be trusted.

The New Zealand forensic services site from 2012 and a paper in Nature from 2005 that I also gave links to in previous posts said the same thing. I have a science background, and most posters on here clearly do not, so I trust my own researches more than the comments of most people here.

HeijoshinCool stated previously that he worked in law enforcement: admittedly anyone can make unsubstantiated claims to any expertise on a forum, but he also gave the only accurate account of the timelines and procedures necessary to carry out DNA profiling that I have read on here (I know it was accurate because I have performed most of the procedures he mentioned, not in a forensic context but in molecular biology labs).

I therefore trust his contributions more than those who are obviously guessing, or who have no idea what DNA is and what genetic markers are.

EDIT: But I am sure HeijoshinCool is not, and I certainly am not, expert in the current availability and accuracy of ethnic testing, and a few hours looking at textbooks and research papers is no substitute for real knowledge of the specific area. That's why I hoped someone with real expertise would comment.

That's a fair rebuttal. Respect. But................

What do you mean by "definitive"? What does it mean in this context? 100% sure its a thai perp? No, that cannot be said. 100% sure its a person of south east asian origin. No, that cant be said either, but this one is more borderline. Maybe 98%. Maybe less, depends on the haptogroup.

An O type haplogroup would define the perp as someone with south east asian ethnicity. Regardless of where they live now. Virtually none of this type exist outside of south east asia (excepting migrants, that represent a tiny percentage).

If the poster you refer to is working in the US, then its a different equation. That country is made up of mostly immigrants. Its a mish mash. To be honest it is all a mish mash, because of migrations. But migrations over 200 years (ie USA,) are different from migrations over tens of thousands of years. Haptogroups track DNA mutations on a scale of thousands of years.

And further, if you have read text books from 2013 then you should know better. A lot of the "y chromosome haptogroup" work was done well before that. So it should be in that text book!

I would recommend you start by looking at the global haptogroup map that is available on wikipedia. Its a lot easier than reading text books, and reasonably accurate. Its not 100% definitive (maybe thats what you were saying) but in some circumstances it may be quite close..... like 99%

Best regards

Doc Julio

[kimamey]

Per the story at 0600 this morning the police didn't have the technology to properly conduct the DNA testing and were seeking the help of the FBI and now all of a sudden they ard DNA experts and have the case solved. Must have found a copy of DNA testing for Dummies

Probably realised the instructions continued on the back of the page.

[espinoza]

Now its narrowed in to about 35 million Asian males in the country, from about 15 British on that island at the time. The progress is impressive.

[DrTuner]

Not all that helpful. Genghis really did get around, his genes are spread everywhere.

That said, my bet is on the fire show guys/beach cowboys. Pure Thai.

[kieran2698]

Maybe he could get a little more definitive results from the world expert analysts compared to the local staff who have neither the depth of training, experience or equipment. It bemuses me that Thais do not understand how far they are behind the world scientifically.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Does it also bemuse you that Thailand has a university in the top 50 for pharmacology and social science (that's the top 0.2% in the world), top 100 for medicine, life science, bio-medicine and chemical engineering and top 150 for chemistry and earth science? That is out of all the 22,000 universities in the world. Do you have a degree from a world class university?

[MJP]

Maybe he could get a little more definitive results from the world expert analysts compared to the local staff who have neither the depth of training, experience or equipment. It bemuses me that Thais do not understand how far they are behind the world scientifically.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Does it also bemuse you that Thailand has a university in the top 50 for pharmacology and social science (that's the top 0.2% in the world), top 100 for medicine, life science, bio-medicine and chemical engineering and top 150 for chemistry and earth science? That is out of all the 22,000 universities in the world. Do you have a degree from a world class university?

It's not regular Thailand where the problems are. It's tourist Thailand where the problems are.

[kieran2698]

This whole article is offensive in many ways..........

I am so very sorry for the families of the victims. R.I.P

The offensive term "Mongoloid" has also been used and I wonder why.

In modern English, the use of mongol (and related forms) is unacceptable

and is considered offensive.

It is still used in certain fields, such as this one. It is unacceptable to call someone a mongol but it not offensive to state that someone has mongoloid ancestry.

[tingtongfarang]

Per the story at 0600 this morning the police didn't have the technology to properly conduct the DNA testing and were seeking the help of the FBI and now all of a sudden they ard DNA experts and have the case solved. Must have found a copy of DNA testing for Dummies

Probably realised the instructions continued on the back of the page.

I remember reading reports about khun pornthip regarding DNA testing involving revealing evidence which the police were less than thrilled about, to the point they tried to denounce it as hocus pocus, concerning paid or otherwise convicted patsys,

The RTP were certainly not happy with the advent of evidence attained by DNS being accepted in a court of law to the point of issuing law suits.

[Chutney]

One thing to note is the guy that David shakes hands with on the CCTV is wearing black pants, and there are black pants with a belt among the clothing strewn on the beach near his body.

what CCTV is this?.... link?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808

I've mentioned this previously but CCTV clearly shows that there was a sizeable group of foreign friends out with Hannah and David that night.

Have the police or media spoken to their friends about any out of the ordinary events that happened during that night? I may have missed them but I have not read any snippets of interviews from friends on Koh Tao at the time. This seems unusual?

Yes, but firstly: crippling shock at the horror of what has happened explains a disinclination to talk to the media on the part of genuine close friends. It doesn't mean that witness statements have not been taken and proffered.

For illegally casual working 'foreign' bar staff et al the first criteria was to get out of it before being flung into the frame with all the confusion and finger pointing they would know was coming their way.

The continued silence about what the victims and their friends and companions did (and when) on that night is the one positive emmerging from this mess. Perhaps the Police and or UK Embassy have moved to ensure that eminently pertinent information is kept out of the public domain. Any subsequent prosecution would heavily rely on the integrity of witness statements given the catastrophic contamination and doubt surounding forensics integrity in this case.

[partington]

Well you are sticking your head in the sand if you believe one post alone. Alas that poster seems to know nothing about DNA analysls.....

Why do you think he knows more about it than most here? I would have said the opposite. Interested to hear your logic.....

How about you try reading some of the other posts....no offence

I told you: I looked in three different text books of forensic DNA analysis, published in 2005, 2007 and 2013, and found no reference to definitive tests of ethnicity, merely that research was in progress but not reliable enough yet to be trusted.

The New Zealand forensic services site from 2012 and a paper in Nature from 2005 that I also gave links to in previous posts said the same thing. I have a science background, and most posters on here clearly do not, so I trust my own researches more than the comments of most people here.

HeijoshinCool stated previously that he worked in law enforcement: admittedly anyone can make unsubstantiated claims to any expertise on a forum, but he also gave the only accurate account of the timelines and procedures necessary to carry out DNA profiling that I have read on here (I know it was accurate because I have performed most of the procedures he mentioned, not in a forensic context but in molecular biology labs).

I therefore trust his contributions more than those who are obviously guessing, or who have no idea what DNA is and what genetic markers are.

EDIT: But I am sure HeijoshinCool is not, and I certainly am not, expert in the current availability and accuracy of ethnic testing, and a few hours looking at textbooks and research papers is no substitute for real knowledge of the specific area. That's why I hoped someone with real expertise would comment.

Seems from what I read that the most recent DNA analysis can determine, with a sufficiently high degree of likelihood, ethnic type, sex, and also things like eye colour, hair colour and even height potential.

And as many of these traits are inherited as opposed to environmental, meaning genetic, I don't see why that information would not be coded into DNA, which is after all the programming unit that determines what we become.

Perhaps some of the people on this forum who state otherwise are basing their opinion on outdated methods. Maybe these people are retired, and when they were working in their younger days maybe DNA testing was more limited. The information that can be extracted in 2014 in the most modern labs is probably far make advanced than even just a decade ago.

You are right that advances are made fast in molecular DNA studies, but these studies are all published in scientific journals in the years in which they are made and can be followed on a monthly basis by people in the field, and you can simply look things up in any current database of scientific publications..You can see I have given references from 2005, 2007 and 2013.

It's simple ignorance that is usually the reason for being unaware of existing tests, and this is my excuse. While I am pretty certain I am right that no current tests exist for height or hair colour, I find from a Nature paper from 2011 that an accurate predictive test for eye colour has in fact been developed, and forensically validated, and is commercially available. It's around 93% accurate, which is pretty definitive. So that shows me!

http://www.nist.gov/mml/bmd/genetics/upload/nrg2952.pdf

Improving human forensics through advances in genetics, genomics and molecular biology

"of all appearance traits studied so far, eye colour is the most accurately predictable. A systematic study involving thousands of Europeans showed that a model including 15 SNPs predicted eye colour with prevalence‑adjusted accuracies of 0.93 for brown and 0.91 for blue eye colour [...] From these findings, the IrisPlex system was developed for DNA‑based eye colour prediction.[...] The IrisPlex assay has already been forensically validated and is therefore now available for forensic case work."

[GTI68]

If I was the commissioner I would have designated a subordinate to take charge and ultimately responsibility and stayed well away from this can of worms.

And since you are not?

Can of ? Hmmmm. Go on now.

[GTI68]

The broadcaster you can trust... to make infantile, offensively descriptive, spelling and grammar errors. 'mongoloid'? 'annal'?

As to the DNA technology confusion, well, things here are like that all the time, "yes we have the garlic prawns", then after a visit to the kitchen, "no we don't".

I just always choose two mains now (one is the back-up) to avoid the inevitable let down. Maybe the lab is like that too?

Get back off your thing.

This is about 2 murdered people.

Pitiful, self indulgent, nonsense.

[NeverSure]

Tin foil hat firmly in place.

I really don't think the police and leaders want this to be a Thai. Maybe it's some guys in high position, or maybe it's face or something else.

From the beginning they tried to pin it on Europeans and when that failed, on migrant workers.

The big sentinel event for me is that apparently they have dismissed the FBI as not needing them. The FBI (or the Yard) has a good chance of determining nationality but we don't want to risk going there.?

Just for me, they are still stinking up the place.

[GTI68]

Lead story on Sky news this eve. They report the Police Commissioner announcing the DNA samples were sent to Singapore and the new results come from a specialist DNA lab in Singapore. Correction. Just watched Sky News lead Bulletin again. Police Commissioner announced samples had now been sent to specialist DNA lab in Singapore to determine further details like height, eye and hair colour. They must be good in Singapore. Sky showing clear CCTV footage of poor Hannah and friends on the night. They are modestly dressed, smart beach bar area casual. Certainly not parading in bikinis or acting provocatively. So terribly sad.

Police will request help from the United States' Federation Bureau of Investigation to test semen found in the body of a female British backpacker brutally murdered on the resort island of Koh Tao this week.

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang, while the FBI had "sophisticated technology".

"We will ask the FBI to help identify the DNA in the semen we found - whether it belonged to an Asian or European," he said yesterday.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761855-police-seek-help-from-fbi-on-dna/#entry8410547

Today:

Royal Thai Police commissioner revealed Saturday that latest DNA examination has now confirmed Asian suspects responsible for the rape and murder of the English tourist in Koh Tao.

Pol Gen Somyot Phunphanmuang disclosed the latest test of DNA samples collected from semen found inside the vagina and annal of Ms Hannah Witheridge, 23, showed they belonged to Mongoloid people or Asians.

OK, now clearly either the reporters or the Thai police are simply making things up off the top of their heads.

There are simply NO DNA tests that can tell you eye colour, or hair colour, or height. This is just fiction.

I also wonder why, if they have definitively identified the DNA sample as "East Asian" (which I also do not think is possible to guarantee with current tests) they are expending efforts to determine hair and eye colour? Does this vary significantly in South East Asians? If they really believe they have proved the DNA is from a South East Asian the answer must be already known (hair: "black", and eyes: "dark brown to black")?

This seems to reflect police or reporter confusion about what has been done and what it is possible to do, or less charitably, the invention of non-existent leads.

Or perhaps the police have sent the DNA to one of those commercial companies that claim to reveal your ethnic ancestry, but which professors of genetics in the UK have referred to as "the equivalent of genetic astrology"?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2013/feb/25/viking-ancestors-astrology

It is. You are in the dark.

But a simple blood type test would be easier to eliminate or include. Suspects.

That is the "quick" route to take. Initially.

Stay calm. Youre not the only sp...ces.

[Richard W]

Maybe it was a Thai-English bad translation. It should be "Mongolian" indeed

Not particularly helpful - it rather strongly suggests someone from Mongolia.

I guess haplo group O was found in the Y DNA. They should be able to narrow that down. But so far it means perpetrator is most likely from the area spanning from southern China and Philippines to Southern Thailand and Eastern Burma.

...........and Alaska/Northern Canada.

Do you have a source for that addition? My source are saying that native American peoples are almost all Q, C or R1. One can add Korea and Japan. However, the information is probably more specific than just 'haplogroup O'.

[Tokay]

Tin foil hat firmly in place.

I really don't think the police and leaders want this to be a Thai. Maybe it's some guys in high position, or maybe it's face or something else.

From the beginning they tried to pin it on Europeans and when that failed, on migrant workers.

The big sentinel event for me is that apparently they have dismissed the FBI as not needing them. The FBI (or the Yard) has a good chance of determining nationality but we don't want to risk going there.?

Just for me, they are still stinking up the place.

The police clearly know who it is. They are buying as much time as humanly possible at this point, testing everyone except Thai men.

[bigjules007]

Is nobody investigating the scenario an asian guy posted on the girls facebook page??? He states that apparently a local gang member took a liking to the girl but when his advances were rejected by the girl the gang took revenge by following both the girl and her friend back after the night out and then murdering them. Surely this is a more credible and plausible scenario and like I said its what somebody wrote on her facebook tribute page!!!

[MJP]

Is nobody investigating the scenario an asian guy posted on the girls facebook page??? He states that apparently a local gang member took a liking to the girl but when his advances were rejected by the girl the gang took revenge by following both the girl and her friend back after the night out and then murdering them. Surely this is a more credible and plausible scenario and like I said its what somebody wrote on her facebook tribute page!!!

Can you paste that up here please?

[balo]

I know this is a common style, but couln't help notice the resemblance.

http://imgur.com/XtZcYhr

Be careful with that , a lot of young thais has that kind of haircut....

[bigjules007]

Ok ill see if its still up coz people were kicking up a stink on the manner he left the post, because it was quite blunt and to the point so it may habe been removed

[honcho]

But... police said a thai would never commit such crime?

50 meters from the police station too! maybe they should be looking a little closer to home

[bigjules007]

Just as I thought its been removed but here is someones response to his post and his facebook name

Julius Montenegro , if you know so much then get in touch with the local police. Why you have to be so graphic is beyond comprehension. This page has been set up as a memory of Hannah . Nobody deserves to die in this way , so your statement claiming there was a "reason" is irrelevant, & shows how uneducated you are. This is somebody's daughter, show some degree of compassion. God bless Hannah and her family.

[bendejo]

...

Mongoloid:

adjective

1 often offensive of or relating to the broad division of humankind including the indigenous peoples of eastern Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Arctic region of North America.

2 (mongoloid) offensive affected with Down syndrome.

noun:

1 often offensive a person of a Mongoloid physical type.

2 offensive a person with Down syndrome.

...

So, according to this all forms of the word are offensive.

However, noun(1) uses the term to itself to define what it means.

So is the definition itself that they give considered offensive?

[Rooo]

Post containing flame remove.

[Sueemily]

Yes,but the uk police wouldn't give out false information,false hopes for the families,nor would they describe the injuries in quite such graphic detail.

[tingtongtourist]

Previous news story said "Thai technology" DNA could only determine if DNA was from a male or female. Now suddenly thai technology can determine the DNA was from a mongoloid?

Best not to beleive anything the Thai police or media ever say.

what ? So from all the threads and 100's of pages of people denegrading thai police and thais in general..now they are lying to implicate themselves!!?

Amazing!!

No matter what breakthroughs is made or new evidence some people still can find the negative

[PaPiPuPePo]

...

Mongoloid:

adjective

1 often offensive of or relating to the broad division of humankind including the indigenous peoples of eastern Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Arctic region of North America.

2 (mongoloid) offensive affected with Down syndrome.

noun:

1 often offensive a person of a Mongoloid physical type.

2 offensive a person with Down syndrome.

...

So, according to this all forms of the word are offensive.

However, noun(1) uses the term to itself to define what it means.

So is the definition itself that they give considered offensive?

I guess I'll finally have to clear this up….

Big-M Mongoloid is an ethnological term for non-Polynesian Asian races, just as Negroid and Caucasoid (aka Caucasian) were/are. Since it's a good descriptive term in terms of genealogy/genetics/DNA it's appropriate and used in describing these kinds of results. This word certainly came from the lab, not the journalists.

People with Downs Syndrome have been called mongoloid (small m) because of their features esp. eye and head shape, which because it's seen as stereo-typing or making fun of them based on looks is considered offensive.