Hospital Fees Massive Rise When Health Insurance Used

[scorecard]

I recently started health insurance for my young granddaughter.

Prior to using the health insurance card the 'hospital fee' on each bill was around 150 / 200 Baht.

When we presented the card from the health insurance company the 'hospital fee' went up to 800Baht, plus two extra smaller 'hospital fee' charges, 50 Baht and 60Baht (on the same bill).

We queried why the main hospital fee had changed from 150 to 200Baht way up to 800Baht. The hospital cashier supervisor says the hospital is entitled to charge more because they have to wait for the money to come from the insurance company.

I can accept that they are entitled to a small fee for this but surely not up to 800Baht.

Are there any laws or regulations on this matter? Thank you.

[misterphil]

Think yourself lucky. I needed surgery on my wrist and told them I had insurance, and they wanted 100,000 baht. I told them for 100,000 baht I can fly to the UK, get the surgery done for free and still have 60,000 baht change. They came back with a counter offer of 80,000 and I said no. They asked me how much I can pay and I told them again, I will pay the cost of an air fare to the UK and they asked how much is that? I said 40,000 baht. They went off and had a discussion and came back and said OK, we operate for 40,000 but just this time you get discount. LOL

[scorecard]

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Think yourself lucky. I needed surgery on my wrist and told them I had insurance, and they wanted 100,000 baht. I told them for 100,000 baht I can fly to the UK, get the surgery done for free and still have 60,000 baht change. They came back with a counter offer of 80,000 and I said no. They asked me how much I can pay and I told them again, I will pay the cost of an air fare to the UK and they asked how much is that? I said 40,000 baht. They went off and had a discussion and came back and said OK, we operate for 40,000 but just this time you get discount. LOL

Thanks for sharing.

My son contacted the health insurance company and they said they know some hospitals do this, the insurance

company doesn't support this idea and in the longer-term it actually adds to premium costs but there is nothing

then can do.

They did mention that a few months ago a consortium of health insurance companies approached the ministry of

health. They say the ministry agrees it's an unacceptable / unethical practice for the hospitals to do this but they

will need to issue a regulation to stop it. It will come.

For our case we have now decided we will not show the insurance card in the future. We will claim

reimbursement direct from the insurance company.

[h90]

Think yourself lucky. I needed surgery on my wrist and told them I had insurance, and they wanted 100,000 baht. I told them for 100,000 baht I can fly to the UK, get the surgery done for free and still have 60,000 baht change. They came back with a counter offer of 80,000 and I said no. They asked me how much I can pay and I told them again, I will pay the cost of an air fare to the UK and they asked how much is that? I said 40,000 baht. They went off and had a discussion and came back and said OK, we operate for 40,000 but just this time you get discount. LOL

rofl....just this time....so hope your second wrist is OK.....

[Konini]

Not just in Thailand, we self insured for 20 years in Australia and always found that there was a lower price when I told them we had no insurance. And it wasn't just the doctors: not quite the same, but even for MRI scans for my back - 14 years ago it was $790 but that dropped to $320 for a non Medicare-claim price by a non acreddited provider. I was quite disguised by this obvious gouging of tax payer funded claimable fees and wrote a letter to my MP, Julia Gillard. No reply of course, not that I was expecting one.

[recycler]

As insurers pay many of the bills they should organize themselves and put more pressure on the hospitals to stick to standard reasonable rates.

At some stage this will lead to a situation where medical care is inaccessible for poor people like in the US.

I know in the UK they have the national health system that seems to work reasonable, in NL it's required by law that the hospitals and the insurers agree once per year on the rates, this also keeps healthcare more or less affordable.

From recent experience I see that healthcare in Thailand is not cheaper than in Europe anymore. I had a gold based crown done in Bangkok Pattaya hospital 6 years ago for 15,000 Baht, last month they quoted me 45,000 for the same crown on the other side! A quote for a simple hernia operation 3 years ago was more expensive then flying to the UK and having it done in a private clinic including tickets and hotel!

[RayHaas]

My daughter was born at Samitivej Hospital on Sukumvit and we took out the package when born for all the vaccines. This was fine. We also purchased health insurance that would cover 50% of all costs incase of hospitalization when ill.

Sure enough the day came that she became ill and had to stay overnight at that same hospital. When asking for the bill upon release we were quoted 7600 Baht. We mentioned we had insurance and they came back with the bill stating 18900 baht with using insurance. Now you don't need to calculate it and clearly see its a rip off using insurance. We just paid the bill without using insurance cover as it was much cheaper that way.

Remarkable on the cash bill e.g. cotton wool was charged at 20 baht, with insurance 240 baht. They just ripping off the insurance companies.

Never been back at that hospital and now very pleased with Bangkok Christian on Silom Road. Honest, great service and the same doctors as they all work free lance anyway.

[umbanda]

Please can you tell me the name of your insurance company?...Mine is AIA....I need to look in that...

[howzat]

Not just medical but car insurance as well.

I just had a quote for a repair to front end...Insurance Baht10,000 plus loss of no claims.

Decided to pay the cost my self and quoted Baht 6000.

Then we wonder why our premiums go up every year,

[dotpoom]

"Hospital Fees Massive Rise When Health Insurance Used"

I think you've already answered your own question in your Header.

[thailand49]

WELCOME TO THAILAND!

I have been here ten years and I wish I didn't have the experience or information that I do? I was a big advocate of Insurance reform in the States and when fresh out of high school I got a part-time job working for Blue Shield of California doing research. In the States it is completely opposite if you do not have insurance you pay more because Insurance in the States they call the shots regarding fees since the insurance companies uses volume of potential patients as leverage. I remember when I left my job for Thailand knowing full well I will be doing so without insurance. One trip coming home I had a problem I went to my regular Internal Medicine doctor who I had seen for twenty years when I had insurance. I needed a blood test this test when I had insurance my co-payment was like $60.00 USD, the provider got a set payment of $100.00 as agreed from the Insurance company. Without insurance the same blood test cost me $400.00. I also needed a emergency procedure in his office my luck, he cut back on his practice, and no longer had the facility to do so. In the end I ended up at the County hospital waiting 6 hours with a room full of illegals getting treatment? If I have gotten the procedure his my doctor office who I had a agreement would treat and charge me as if I had insurance I would had paid him cash $350.00 instead at County without insurance I got charge $2000.00.

Here in Thailand the Insurance companies do not have the same power as in the States, simply they do not have the volume of the population. Those who have insurance here are basically the HAVE'S and the majority of population are the HAVE NOT'S WHO USE GOVERNMENT! Here in Thailand the private Hospital basically have a monopoly since there is little competition. This is why as expected each year the premiums are going up and up the private hospitals have found a gold mine? Those with Insurance are label ATM, the charges are steeper but of course majority pay no mine since it is still cheaper than at home.

It is against the law for hospital to charge more especially for foreigners unless the extra charge is necessary because they like have to hire a translator to communicate with you etc.. but it is hard to prove! But if you live here and use the hospital oven you will eventually see differences? Here is one, My brother has insurance at home whenever he his family uses insurance he pays up front and then submits the bills back home to his Insurance and payment is return at some point. The Thai private hospital ( Oh hell why not just say their name ) BPH in Pattaya, has him down as a ATM Insurance! His wife went in for a C-Section, 3 nights total bill 80,000 baht, a few month later my cousin who has a Thai wife but no insurance for her here or at home same doctor, same procedure, same amount of stay, basically the same room, Total charge for a Thai without Insurance 20,000 Baht! My Thai wife no insurance goes to see Doctor at BPH for office visit, Doctor visit charge 400 baht, my charge 800 baht. it goes on and on!

Insurance here is basically a scam it is sold Ala Cart, am I saying do not buy? NO! we are painted into a corner no where to really turn because we got to have something! Today I spend time trying to beat the system to find a answer for years? and I'm still confused as to what to do? Basically now I try not to use Outpatients at the hospital and basically try to self medicate heal and put aside money like a health saving account for small stuff pay out of pocket. Find a private doctor that you trust who you can visit for fever, cuts etc..

Last example in cost... I and my son have accident insurance coverage basic coverage 10,000 baht, Two years ago I go to BPH, emergency got stitches forehead, X-ray, several small cuts on arm and leg, cost 10,000 baht. Recently my son accident motorbike basically got treated the same also 10,000 baht, Funny how each time you visit you have insurance they end up charging the max amount 10,000! Smells funny doesn't it? The insurance companies operating in Thailand have no real power to dictate a much lower rate they can only suggest so far!

Edited October 29, 2014 by thailand49

[thailand49]

Please can you tell me the name of your insurance company?...Mine is AIA....I need to look in that...

AIA, is the biggest rip off of all the Insurance companies in Thailand, A product of AIG since sold off after the financial meltdown and bailout by the US government!

They basically sell to Thais, sell majority of policy basic plan that have basic cost and are attractive to Thais who are not very educated. This is in General! most likely you got AiA because your wife or girlfriend said I have a friend who sell insurance? This is basically how I came to know AIA when I first came to Thailand and have heard many stories from others Falangs who also got AiA, When the find print comes beware but if you want real coverage from them the premiums are high just like the rest!

[JimSiam]

Please can you tell me the name of your insurance company?...Mine is AIA....I need to look in that...

AIA, is the biggest rip off of all the Insurance companies in Thailand, A product of AIG since sold off after the financial meltdown and bailout by the US government!

They basically sell to Thais, sell majority of policy basic plan that have basic cost and are attractive to Thais who are not very educated. This is in General! most likely you got AiA because your wife or girlfriend said I have a friend who sell insurance? This is basically how I came to know AIA when I first came to Thailand and have heard many stories from others Falangs who also got AiA, When the find print comes beware but if you want real coverage from them the premiums are high just like the rest!

The problem is AIA is a life insurance company and cannot sell only health insurance, you have to buy a life policy with a health insurance rider, which is usually very low benefits, many of the Life companies here do this.

[Ming Mueng]

One well known eye clinic in Asoke quoted for a cataract removal Bht, 80,000.--.

Same procedure done at Chulalongkorn hospital Bht. 18,000.--.

Same doctor by the way.

[abrahamzvi]

Think yourself lucky. I needed surgery on my wrist and told them I had insurance, and they wanted 100,000 baht. I told them for 100,000 baht I can fly to the UK, get the surgery done for free and still have 60,000 baht change. They came back with a counter offer of 80,000 and I said no. They asked me how much I can pay and I told them again, I will pay the cost of an air fare to the UK and they asked how much is that? I said 40,000 baht. They went off and had a discussion and came back and said OK, we operate for 40,000 but just this time you get discount. LOL

Although I don't know which hospital(s) you or the OP refer to, this has not been my experience in any of the hospitals I visited, or been treated by. These include The Bangkok Hospitals both in Bangkok and Chiang Mai and the Ram hospitals in Chiang Mai and Khon Kaen. I can say that with certainty, as I for my self always pay and get reimbursed by my insurer back home. My wife and two daughters are insured by a local insurance company and they never pay more, although the bill goes directly to the local insurers. If anything, I have noticed that their bill is at times lower than mine.

[Si Thea01]

Please can you tell me the name of your insurance company?...Mine is AIA....I need to look in that...

AIA, is the biggest rip off of all the Insurance companies in Thailand, A product of AIG since sold off after the financial meltdown and bailout by the US government!

They basically sell to Thais, sell majority of policy basic plan that have basic cost and are attractive to Thais who are not very educated. This is in General! most likely you got AiA because your wife or girlfriend said I have a friend who sell insurance? This is basically how I came to know AIA when I first came to Thailand and have heard many stories from others Falangs who also got AiA, When the find print comes beware but if you want real coverage from them the premiums are high just like the rest!

What a load of crap and I am not a Thai but I am an educated farang. If anyone is uneducated I would say it's you because you certainly do not know what you are talking about.

I have two policies with AIA, one for a million baht life cover, which extends from the age of 65 to 80, if I live that long. I was able to obtain this prior to turning 65 and am now in my second year. in addition, it includes medical cover for the doctor, hospital and medication. I have a second policy, accident cover, which covers me for a doctor, hospital and medical but at a reduced rate to the main policy. The cost of the main policy is B1000,000 or A$3,000 a year, whilst the second policy costs A$100.00 per year or B3,000. These prices are fixed for 15 years and is about B35,000 cheaper then what I had in Australia.

At the end of the first year I had to have a nasal operation and elected to go to a private hospital. Big mistake. The total cost of the services provided, no doubt to my having insurance, was B157,000. The hospital a large one in Udon Thani gouged me B57,000 above what the insurance listed they would pay and I was for only four days. The insurer tried on a number of occasions to have the amount reduced but to no avail, so knowing I was being gouged they paid the hospital an extra B20,000 to help reduce my costs. Also, when the insurer realised that I had to pay extra for the private hospital, and my policy was due for renewal, they extended the payment date by one month to assist me in meeting all the costs. A very fine service I would say as they did not have to do this.

The second unfortunate incident is that the doctor, through either negligence or being inept, caused trauma to one of my eyes when he damaged the extraocular muscles. This aspect will be going a lot further now that I have a bigger problem and require a eye operation. Fortunately I was admitted to two government hospitals, the first did not have the expertise so I was transferred to a large university hospital. Even though both were aware I had insurance the first charged fees that were very reasonable and the full amount of B15,000 has been refunded. This was for three days and included a private room, food, x-rays, two CAT scans and medication.

The second account was also very reasonable considering I was hospitalised for 24 days and had numerous tests, CAT scans, MRI and treated by two teaching professors. A private room and very good food, excellent service and heaps of medication saw the account of B62,000 presented and being met by the insurer. The only fall back is being government hospitals I had to pay for the scans before having them and then paying the total account prior to discharge.

So please tell me and others who read your post how this company is ripping people off. I can only recommend this company, not bag them.

[ianf]

Hospital fees are negotiable. The answer to the OP is very simple. The hospital gives up to 40% discount to the insurance company. So is the bill is 100k then they would receive 60k from the insurance company. That makes every bill negotiable. My insurance recently turned me down on a 106k bill from the hospital: I ended up paying 92k to the hospital directly and had we known that their discount to the insurance co was greater than our discount, then we would have negotiated, perhaps down to 70k. We know for next time. The whole thing is a scam. At the end of the day if you have treatment and then are faced with an enormous bill you can get away with at least 40% if not more. Try it.

[Balance]

Can folks share their experiences with the government teaching hospitals regarding the insurance/non insurance rip offs?

[bikerbri]

Think yourself lucky. I needed surgery on my wrist and told them I had insurance, and they wanted 100,000 baht. I told them for 100,000 baht I can fly to the UK, get the surgery done for free and still have 60,000 baht change. They came back with a counter offer of 80,000 and I said no. They asked me how much I can pay and I told them again, I will pay the cost of an air fare to the UK and they asked how much is that? I said 40,000 baht. They went off and had a discussion and came back and said OK, we operate for 40,000 but just this time you get discount. LOL

Amazing Thailand! Which Hospital please?

[lopburi3]

One well known eye clinic in Asoke quoted for a cataract removal Bht, 80,000.--.

Same procedure done at Chulalongkorn hospital Bht. 18,000.--.

Same doctor by the way.

But that most likely has nothing to do with insurance - your talking the foremost private eye hospital in Thailand, I suspect, which is known to be expensive and one of the largest government supported hospitals, which is known to be inexpensive. Both prices seem to be about the min and max for such operation but this can also vary by the type of replacement lens used or complications.

[bikerbri]

Be careful of the charges for medications. My recent experience with Asia's #1 hospital was to be charged double the price charged by an outside pharmacy for exactly the same medications. I now ask for a prescription and buy out side.

[Greg Nixon]

Is this a real question ? DUHH.

[Strangebrew]

I got teamster Insurance and talked with them about back pain I had said where I was they asked me If I could handle 13 hour flight back to states to have it checked and if needed operated on I said yes if I had to but cost of round trip flight would set me back a bit. They turned around and said we will buy round trip business class if you decide to take that route. Plus pay economy hotel for recovery time. Well needless to say I took them up on the offer.

[Strangebrew]

But next time might say give insurance bill you would send to insurance company then give bill for no insurance that I pay in cash. Might end making money lmao

[thailand49]

Please can you tell me the name of your insurance company?...Mine is AIA....I need to look in that...

AIA, is the biggest rip off of all the Insurance companies in Thailand, A product of AIG since sold off after the financial meltdown and bailout by the US government!

They basically sell to Thais, sell majority of policy basic plan that have basic cost and are attractive to Thais who are not very educated. This is in General! most likely you got AiA because your wife or girlfriend said I have a friend who sell insurance? This is basically how I came to know AIA when I first came to Thailand and have heard many stories from others Falangs who also got AiA, When the find print comes beware but if you want real coverage from them the premiums are high just like the rest!

What a load of crap and I am not a Thai but I am an educated farang. If anyone is uneducated I would say it's you because you certainly do not know what you are talking about.

I have two policies with AIA, one for a million baht life cover, which extends from the age of 65 to 80, if I live that long. I was able to obtain this prior to turning 65 and am now in my second year. in addition, it includes medical cover for the doctor, hospital and medication. I have a second policy, accident cover, which covers me for a doctor, hospital and medical but at a reduced rate to the main policy. The cost of the main policy is B1000,000 or A$3,000 a year, whilst the second policy costs A$100.00 per year or B3,000. These prices are fixed for 15 years and is about B35,000 cheaper then what I had in Australia.

At the end of the first year I had to have a nasal operation and elected to go to a private hospital. Big mistake. The total cost of the services provided, no doubt to my having insurance, was B157,000. The hospital a large one in Udon Thani gouged me B57,000 above what the insurance listed they would pay and I was for only four days. The insurer tried on a number of occasions to have the amount reduced but to no avail, so knowing I was being gouged they paid the hospital an extra B20,000 to help reduce my costs. Also, when the insurer realised that I had to pay extra for the private hospital, and my policy was due for renewal, they extended the payment date by one month to assist me in meeting all the costs. A very fine service I would say as they did not have to do this.

The second unfortunate incident is that the doctor, through either negligence or being inept, caused trauma to one of my eyes when he damaged the extraocular muscles. This aspect will be going a lot further now that I have a bigger problem and require a eye operation. Fortunately I was admitted to two government hospitals, the first did not have the expertise so I was transferred to a large university hospital. Even though both were aware I had insurance the first charged fees that were very reasonable and the full amount of B15,000 has been refunded. This was for three days and included a private room, food, x-rays, two CAT scans and medication.

The second account was also very reasonable considering I was hospitalised for 24 days and had numerous tests, CAT scans, MRI and treated by two teaching professors. A private room and very good food, excellent service and heaps of medication saw the account of B62,000 presented and being met by the insurer. The only fall back is being government hospitals I had to pay for the scans before having them and then paying the total account prior to discharge.

So please tell me and others who read your post how this company is ripping people off. I can only recommend this company, not bag them.

In all due respect sir! my response was from direct dealing with AIA, and watching Thai I know sell their policy. Just because that is not your experience you do not see me jumping up and down like a A-- calling my experience a load of crap!

If you can read again when you are not so in heat.. you would see I mentioned policies in general that are being sold to local average Thais and they are not in the range of 1 million baht and certainly can not afford a policy $3,000 a year = 90,000 baht year let alone by a second policy.

I'm glad you got in early and being covered but that is your experience and good for you. But AIA majority of policies that are sold are to local Thais policies that range in the 3,000 - 5,000 baht a year coverage around 250,000 max.. these majority allows guys like you to be covered it is a basically a numbers game if you have any brains at all?

Now why I dislike or hate AIA, a number of years ago I wanted to cover my wife and son. As usual a friend of a friend was selling AIA, the agent or friend came over did the selling points and I ask a lot of questions? wanted to see the fine print? the more I ask the more she got lost in the conversation? I could see my wife was loosing face in front of the friends so I stopped. In the end, not know how things work or what was really in store for me and my family I purchased what I felt was the best bang for the buck. At that time I had no idea what a hospital charge for a certain procedure so forth and so forth? My son being too young they said no problem the agent drove us down to Bangkok/Pattaya hospital to take a short check up that was paid for by AIA. I gave the agent the full premium for everyone and that we would be contacted by her in a few weeks with everything.

A month later the agent shows up and tells us we were all denied insurance by AIA, and that our money will be return soon minus something like 5%, I was thinking and saying , I ask for an explanation as to why we were being denied the agent had none and on request ask for the address of AIA headquarters so I can contact them or write. My biggest concern was if something was wrong with us? I had no problem since I just had a major physical in the U.S. so my concern was with my family. I wrote never got a response, I called several times left messages no return call, rode into Bangkok to visit HQ, couldn't not see anyone.

My wife seem find so I proceeded to just call it a day and look else where and got us all covered by Thai Insurance 1 million baht each. Two years later my wife was getting ill and I admitted her to BPH, after a battery of test we were given the bad news that she had cancer. Thai insurance had records from BPH that she had a test given by AIA years ago and cancelled us because they said we knew about her illness! ALL I WANTED FROM THESE BLOOD SUCKERS WAS A ANSWER! THEY DID NOT HAVE THE COMMOM DECENCY TO EVEN GIVE ME THE TIME OF DAY TO LET ME KNOW SO I COULD HELP HER. THEY KEPT SILENT ABOUT THE RESULTS AND RATHER SHE DIED! IN MY HEART I HAVE THE REASON, MEANS AND ABILITY TO END THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE WHO RUN THIS SO CALL COMPANY BUT FOR MY SON SAKE I LET IT GO! I HAD MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DEAL WITH.

IS THAT ENOUGH OF A &lt;deleted&gt;&gt;--G REASON FOR YOU! BUT i'M GLAD YOUR OLD ASS IS BEING COVERED!

Edited October 29, 2014 by thailand49

[realenglish1]

Well I think it is the way you look at the situation. Lets say their normal charge is 800 baht But if you dont have insurance they are then only going to charge you 200 baht because they do not want to be a financial burden to the uninsured

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Please can you tell me the name of your insurance company?...Mine is AIA....I need to look in that...

AIA, is the biggest rip off of all the Insurance companies in Thailand, A product of AIG since sold off after the financial meltdown and bailout by the US government!

They basically sell to Thais, sell majority of policy basic plan that have basic cost and are attractive to Thais who are not very educated. This is in General! most likely you got AiA because your wife or girlfriend said I have a friend who sell insurance? This is basically how I came to know AIA when I first came to Thailand and have heard many stories from others Falangs who also got AiA, When the find print comes beware but if you want real coverage from them the premiums are high just like the rest!

There's another point to add - agents. Some Insurance companies watch their agents and punish them if they are overselling. Others don't watch the agents at all.

When my Thai son got married he discovered his wife was paying, monthly, for health insurance for her mother (about 50 yrs old,no health problems).

The cover provided was way way beyond anything needed and the premium was around 12,000Baht a month.

Son's wife had no documents at all. Son asked the agent to come to the condo:

- Agent was a Thai lady who was the 'best friend' of son's wife at high school.

- Agent refused to listen just kept up more sales blerb.

- Son demanded she answer some questions. Examples:

- Q: Where is the policy document? A: Policy holders are not allowed to have documents. There is one master policy document at HO covering all customers but customers are not allowed to see it. Agent also insisted this is required by Thai law.

- Q: What is the name of your supervisor? A: I don't have a supervisor, and you are very rude to ask me this question.

and more.

- Son insisted the agent give him a document to say the policy was cancelled from that day. A: Cannot, that has to come from England and I don't know who to contact in England and I can't ask my office, that would be impolite.

- End of story, son threw her documents into the condo hallway and told her leave (Not normal behavior for my son).

- Son went to the insurance company and insisted on speaking to a senior person, lots of ' not available this week' etc.

- Son called the police (he knew someone to call), police arrived and suddenly very different attitude. Police insisted they give my son a cancellation document, date that day on the spot.

- Next day the agent girl called son's wife and abused her because her commissions had been taken back.

- Final comment from agent to son's wife: "Your not a very nice friend, our friendship is now finished".

[misterphil]

Think yourself lucky. I needed surgery on my wrist and told them I had insurance, and they wanted 100,000 baht. I told them for 100,000 baht I can fly to the UK, get the surgery done for free and still have 60,000 baht change. They came back with a counter offer of 80,000 and I said no. They asked me how much I can pay and I told them again, I will pay the cost of an air fare to the UK and they asked how much is that? I said 40,000 baht. They went off and had a discussion and came back and said OK, we operate for 40,000 but just this time you get discount. LOL

Amazing Thailand! Which Hospital please?

BHP

[Jonmarleesco]

The insurance providers expect to pay 'reasonable expenses', so I doubt they will argue. And it shouldn't directly affect future premiums, though the same being applied to every scheme member will certainly impact on premium increases.

[kerrysum]

Thanks for all of the posts,

I think we can all agree, the insurance industry is nothing but ONE BIG SCAM...... And yes I despise AIG, personally we pay doctors direct, and find it much cheaper. Simply put, I have no use for the insurance industry, and no one is regulating it..... Welcome to socialized medicine..... It makes me sick, inside...... We definitely need reform in insurance malpractice, but guess the big money gets in the way......(Too many hands getting greased..)