Thailand beach murders: Hannah Witheridge and David Miller may have argued in bar with gangster

[slim]

2 days after this murder, the Chief of Police on Khoa Tao came out with the unbelievable assertion that they were not looking for anyone from Thailand as a suspect as "a Thai couldn't have committed a crime like this".

This is the typical "head-up-the-arse" approach to crime solving in Thailand.

I spent 7 years in Thailand and left because of all the troubles, the hypocracy and the corruption and I've never been back..

Thai soap opera's spew out a constant diet of ludicrous social violence that has anaesthetized the Thai public into believing that extreme violence is not only acceptable - its "normal".

Thais were responsible for this crime.

No-one from Thailand will be arrested for it as its bad publicity.

Even my Thai wife is sickened by whats happening to Thailand.

[Bleacher Bum East]

It appears the police and press are doing everything they can to evade the possibility that the killer or killers are Thai...arguing with a Thai in a bar is not a good idea...you can count on many...if not most...to be able to enact bad will upon your person...Thai answer to an argument...knives...guns...gangs of thugs...and of course the old standby...a hoe normally used for farming...

Thailand is relatively safe...if you stay in your room...order food and beverage...and massage...watch a little TV...then go to bed...not to town...

Any town after midnight...can be considered an unsafe place to be walking or traveling alone...

I completely agree with your comment in the first paragraph.

if you argue with a Thai in a bar you can expect trouble, and you won't see it coming. This is based on personal experience.

I completely disagree with the last two sentences.

If you are a man and minding your own business, then you will almost never have any problem in most towns in Thailand being out walking or travelling alone after midnight. This is also based on personal experience---a dozen years in Thailand with half of my nights during the last six years being out walking or traveling alone after midnight.

There are some random late-night muggings or attacks by young hoodlums on gang dares ... so I can't say it is perfectly safe. And you shouldn't be completely stupid about where you wander and back yourself into a corner. But the problems are very few and far between.

The only time I have had any problem, or heard of farangs having a problem, was when they pissed off a Thai in one form or another. If that happens then yes, it's best to stay in your room , order some food, watch television and be afraid.

Caveat: These comments apply to men. I think in Thailand being female and out alone after midnight is exponentially more dangerous. Although if you are in a pub, restaurant or where other people around, and generally if you are on a motorbike, this is not the case. There are normally many females coming home from work, etc. alone on motorbikes after midnight, and in general I don't believe they have too many problems or concerns (my girlfriend is often one of them). The rapes and attacks in Thailand occur in other circumstances. If female TV readers think I am wrong about this, please let me know.

[Globeman]

Is there Gangsters in Thailand ?????

Never seen any....only a bunch of wannabe gangster low-life scum.

And what gangsters aren't ultimately low-life scum? Have you perhaps watched the Godfather a few too many times?

[Thai at Heart]

One thing I find disconcerting (out of many) about this high profile heinous crime is the apparent lack of voluntary statements from the friends of the two victims. Or, if there were statements made, the lack of follow-up from the authorities.

I say this as it is only being said about the possible argument in the bar with a local gangster. To me, this would be a critical starting point in the investigation. All the speculation about DNA testing over the last week has been mind boggling, and while I have the greatest respect for evolving technology, sometimes the clues that are needed are staring you in the face.

Just my couple of bahts worth.

Yup. I've been saying the same for the last couple of days. They looked to be in a fairly large group that night. The police must be able to put together a pretty solid timeline of events by now.

You think the police want 20 statements on the record all pointing the finger at the same well known pooyai bloke?

I am sure it is not that they don't want to.make a statement. The police don't want to ask them

[blowin]

So "everybody" knows that yaba is available in certain bars? And why have the police not shut down or raided those bars? Is the police in Thailand even supporting drugs and narcotics? Is there no limits to how low they can sink?

Yes the police know.

And ask them why they allow it and they say that the farangs like it and without it the farangs won't visit.

Yet it is known as a Thai drug of choice but "they have to accept the foreigners ways. " I have been told this by police in Bangkok in regards to the ya ba manufacture and sales.

I don't do drugs but have been around them and seen them being used on Phangan and Tao funny enough but on the KPH lots of hard drugs. But I don't think most westerners would do YABA it would be more Coke Es and of course dope and mushroom shakes which are legal.

Some one asked about the police knowing dealers or bars that deal. The guy that killed my wife's cousin everyone knows where he scored including me but would anyone including police go near these Fortuna loving family the answer is defiantly no. That is the way things work (fear) and I am talking a rural area with only Thais. The drug YABA is rampant all over this area and lots of kids are using I am sad to say.

[Tokay]

A mystery women with a penis full of sperm and a tendency to rape females.

Evolution is in full gear on Koh Tao it seems.

Unless of course, it's a ladyboy. Which wouldn't make sense, as they are generally gay. That said, perhaps that would explain the original reports that the male was also raped.

[noitom]

The ineptness, rigging, complacency, and arrogance is a stain on Thailand and its tourism. Condolences to the family and shame on Thai crime investigators and the faulted Thai process of due diligence and justice.

[Jacobjones]

Is it me or doesn't it seem that Hannah's group was followed by 3 blokes in yellow football shirts in the cctv???

[JoeLing]

Is this drama ever going to end in an arrest and conviction police are looking for anyone who will confess and now a gangster he should be easy to find as I am sure police would have been involved with him if he was a gangster, so it will be case closed in the next couple of days.

If there is any truth to this, the NCPO should have no trouble sending a squad of soldiers to arrest the gangster, even if local police are too scared. They have even arrested the former major of Patong and his son, who must be far more influential and wealthy than gangsters operating on Koh Tao. Police involvement in the crime is also a possibility that could explain the lack of progress in the investigation but plain incompetence is more likely.

Well not sure if I can compare arresting a Major and his son (things will change for a while

but someone else will fill the "gap") with arresting entire family clans of a couple of islands.

Now don't think those clans are just a few local fisherman or coconut farmers. They mostly

​are very successful and educated business men, not stupid or crooks and are sure very

much aware of the implications if this doesn't get sorted in a way or another. Islanders all

over the world have since generations sorted out their own "problems" and got away with

it as long it didn't involve the outside, they been left alone, see Sicily or Corsica.

Same applies to some of the small, more secluded beaches with their own "governor". Even

disputes "who is the boss" will be settled within their "seclusion" and nothing will be known

10 miles away.

IF and I don't suggest it is, there is some island "family" involvement, every family would be

involved by now and most likely be a silent wall to the "outsiders". Even if they might find a

"scape goat" to satisfy "outsiders" I'm fairly sure the culprits IF local, will NOT get away with

it. Too much at stake and not just money. Lets say a bit like "same, same" as Cosa Nostra

but "different". Not at all same as BKK, Phuket, Pattaya or even the bigger sister island Koh

Samui, which is much more close and "connected" with the mainland.

But maybe, a general from the North might have less of a connection and concerns for local

family ranks here in the south and might bring some change and if it's just to make islanders

aware, distances have changed, authority isn't that far away anymore. You have become

Thai, you have become global. If you want to be in control of your island then control!"

[Triplebank999]

I ask the reader here to refrain from any softening of resolve.

Thais understand this website represents westerner opinion .

Though , i hold some respect for the latest, i know it is about time.

Thais will bite time.

No one can deny this is their mentality.

Don't fall for this trap.

Wait.

This is the generals moment .

He can become "internationally credible " If he has the stomach to crucify the criminals" not literally , but figuratively tough….

Even if protected - arrest them…..N

If he transcends the red tape and give "US westerners "" our justice he will indeed be able to deem himself "an arrival on the world stage""

But execution is very necessary to heal these deep wounds ….

You can become very believable if you arrest and kill these bastards

"Thais understand this website represents westerner opinion ."

That's a very misguided opinion.

This site does not represent "westerner opinion" at all, it posts the (usually ill-informed*) views of a very limited number of people registered to the forum. Very few Thais, and relatively few westerners, have any idea of the existence of ThaiVisa and those that do generally have no interest in the views* of it's posters.

* I'm not trying to denegrate TV posters but most views expressed here are backed by dubious information from very unreliable sources and then regurgitated usually with a rather imaginative twist.

Most people understood by the reference ""Thais"" i meant Government *(who do monitor )

No they didn't, there were a lot of people agreeing with me that what you posted was nonsense. Perhaps you should have said what you meant, and no matter who you think "monitors" this forum no-one thinks TV is the representative of the western world's opinion.

[JenniferSG]

"The evidence now suggests the girl shared a cigarette with her killer, given the DNA match and lipstick traces. Therefore she had some form of social contact beforehand. Did the killer(s) coerce her out of the bar somehow? I don't believe there are no witnesses."

Where I live people will ask what time it is so that you take out your phone to look at the time, then punch you in the face and take the phone. Perhaps someone saying "can I have the rest of that smoke?" was a way to get her to step closer, or a distraction, while someone else whacked the guy on the head from behind. None of it means she smoked a cig with her rapist/killer.

[Chutney]

One thing I find disconcerting (out of many) about this high profile heinous crime is the apparent lack of voluntary statements from the friends of the two victims. Or, if there were statements made, the lack of follow-up from the authorities.

I say this as it is only being said about the possible argument in the bar with a local gangster. To me, this would be a critical starting point in the investigation. All the speculation about DNA testing over the last week has been mind boggling, and while I have the greatest respect for evolving technology, sometimes the clues that are needed are staring you in the face.

Just my couple of bahts worth.

You're making a couple of assumptions there.

What makes you think that the group company they were in were friends? Could they not all have been meeting up for the first time in the bar?

Lack of statements? Another assumption, the Police managed to get the statements from the two brothers who were David's travelling companions easily enough.

Lack of follow up? You mean because the Keystone cops haven't openly stated anything it means they've done nothing?

But you do have some valid points, and I would, if I were on the case be trying to establish the following

Who was Hannah's travelling companion(s) or was she travelling alone?

How long had she been on the Island, and what was her routine whilst there ?

Was she the type of girl who was comfortable in her surroundings?

Did she frequent the bar in question, or was it a first night there?

Whom did she socialise with during the daylight hours and the same for the night time ?

Did she share a room with a female friend or was she on the Island alone ?

I'm sure there would be a Thai Detective smart enough to ask the same questions... perhaps

AS to why people who were in the bar are not coming forwards, there could be several reasons, visa and work permits or the lack of being one of them?

Knowing the reputation of the suspected bad guy, and not willing to shyt in your own nest, irrespective of the crime.

FEAR of the same thing happening to them..

Dear God! Did you ever think to actually follow any of the most basic facts about this case before posting that piffle? All of that information is widely accessible within the public domain. Please do some basic research before you inflict your foolish conjecture upon this board.

[phuketandsee]

They never give up do they?

According to Sunday's UK Guardian:

"Police Colonel Kissana Phathanacharoen said: "We have discovered fresh evidence which could lead to a new suspect who may have had a relationship or one-night stand with Hannah or one of her friends or David the night before they were killed".

[Chutney]

This is where he is:

Fish bowl bar.

: 3/1 Moo 1, Sairee Beach, Ban Koh Tao

Real smart move telling everyone where he is especially if the Thai Mafia's after him... and you had the audacity to lambast me?

And also asking for people to go and help, what do you think they're going to do against the Thai mafia, who are always tooled up and toursists armed with bacardi breezers ?

According to his page and minutes ago messages they are right outside. Calling the media/police would help. You disgust me at this point.

Don't you stop for one minute to think that the local Police are more than likely to have known this from the very beginning ?

Why has this only surfaced now, and he didn't come forwards right away? I hope it's not a sick joke, although it appears to be genuine, and I hope justice is served in a proper manner too.. I've posted this onto my FB page as well.

A. Probably/possibly but proof is another matter and as I am not there I don't know.

B. My conjecture will not aid anything.

C. If this already well documented friend of David Miller has put this out in fear and is sitting in a bar on Ko Tao the more people around the better till he can get some proper protection. It looks like his friends and family are working on that. Help if you can. I would rather be taken for a fool than sit on my arse and scoff personally.

[SteveFong]

isnt the army there?

what about the bangkok police, did everyone go home?

[Thaiready]

By the way, gangsters do not kill with wooden sticks or hoes. If they do, they don't leave them behind. Nor they leave semen or any traces that will lead to them. This wasn't a gangster. More of want to be a gangster.

Know all about gangsters do you? Know all about Thais as well?

yes and yes

[Fat Haggis]

Chutney,

I've already posted this on my facebook and also been in comms with some friends on Kho Tao but it's early doors there with them, and I doubt they'd jeopardise their position on the Island by intefering with the local Mafia mate, don't get me wrong, if I was there I'd do what I could, but these guys don't play by the same rules, and they're a lot more powerful than just standing up to them, they're too well connected, and this has beeen the problem right from day one.

[Chutney]

Chutney,

I've already posted this on my facebook and also been in comms with some friends on Kho Tao but it's early doors there with them, and I doubt they'd jeopardise their position on the Island by intefering with the local Mafia mate, don't get me wrong, if I was there I'd do what I could, but these guys don't play by the same rules, and they're a lot more powerful than just standing up to them, they're too well connected, and this has beeen the problem right from day one.

FH.

Not suggesting for one moment anyone rushes in acting the cavalry but if just a few people were at least around in a normal manner it would give time for the Embassy, BK police, Media etc to hustle him out of there...and yes I do know what you're saying. Lived in LOS for quite a while.

[englishoak]

If all true this is going to send shockwaves throughout Thailand .... and it begs the question........ why did it take a farang to speak out ?

Interestingly enough Thais believe spirits cannot rest until 7 days has passed, until then they are looking for justice/revenge... its about 6 days 22 - 24hrs hrs between sean posting and the murder... make of that what you will

[ozzyrules]

At the moment all we have to hope for is that Sean is ok........someone please confirm this!!!

[Fred Flinstone]

Consider its 545am there right now .

Why is our friend there right now?

And his other Pals seem to have only recently joined here but are keen to back up the story.

How did he discover the killers?

Is he drunk?

These questions need to be considered .

A hoax of this kind is highly inappropriate and illegal.

knowing jail time could result , why would he fabricate this story?

Not sure whether to believe this or not.

If true its explosive stuff

[englishoak]

would you rather be wrong make a noise and look a fool or be right and do nothing ? id rather look the fool

sean was coming back to the UK last week but DNA testing has kept people on Island, im betting his situation has been getting more tenuous by the day as the noose tightens and his conscience got the better of him.

All we need is for sean to be safe and the rest will come out....

Either way sean will be leaving Thailand very soon I only hope its safe and sound whether hes on the level or not posting a mug shot accusing a Thai Islander of murder means hes done in Thailand for good... better to go and do the right thing than live with that secret..

[SteveFong]

someone talked, or someone bragged, or someone was seen with fresh scratch marks on their face and bite marks on their hands

[LanceGringo]

someone talked, or someone bragged, or someone was seen with fresh scratch marks on their face and bite marks on their hands

Do you know this or is it you guessing?

[chris100uk]

Seems like an attention seeker.

[Metapod]

Someone couldn't be dumb enough to joke about something like this could they? Specially if they are living there and knew the deceased?

.............

[Heng]

It sounds like something like this from the beginning. There was no reason to say 'no one should offer help to the suspect' (during the police 'lock down' of the island) if they suspected a migrant worker and even less so a tourist.

[Joe Bloggs]

Forget the banter and the barrack-room0lawyers and forget the FBI. One just needs a top professor in Molecular Biology and DNA. Please see this article:-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-scientist-how-solved-mystery-7732111

One can surmise that as he identified who was Jack The Ripper from 126 year old DNA, this case should have a great chance of being solved. Whilst the DNA won't actually give the name and address of the murderer it can nevertheless give a unique match to the person and the match is as unique as a fingerprint.

There is of course the distinct possibility that there are people in high places who do not want this case to be solved.

[metisdead]

Flame posts have been removed.

[kinmaew]

When will the Met be arriving?