Koh Tao murders: Police free bar owners and look for ex-village headman's son

[Dogmatix]

The Police General Hospital autopsy report has been posted online but I will not post it here as it is in Thai only. If interested, you should be able to find it easily.

The report that has been posted without the preamble is only one page of well spaced type for both victims and seems rather cursory in nature, compared to autopsy reports on victims of violent crime where the circumstances of death are far from clear in the US or other Western countries. Perhaps it is only a summary but it seems entirely consistent with what was described as the autopsy findings on Thai TV by the police pathologist in charge.

The report says that both Hannah and David died from violent blows to the head with a blunt instrument that caused wounding consistent with the hoe that was found nearby.

DNA traces of a Mr C were found on Hannah's nipples and semen with DNA from a Mr B and Mr C were found internally.

No sign of sexual assault on David.

No signs of toxic substances or poisoned food in either victim.

Nothing is mentioned about the multiple incision or chop wounds on David's head or upper torso or the obvious difference in the wounds to each victim that the pathologist ascribed to the same blunt instrument as murder weapon.

wonder how it compares with the coroners report?

Will be interesting to know, if we ever see that document. The UK pathologists will unfortunately have had much less to work with than the Thai police pathologists, since the bodies would have been completely cleaned up before repatriation. So no chance to look for any other DNA traces, I wouldn't think. However, it is hard to imagine a British pathologist, even just by looking at the photographs, agreeing that David's wounds were all consistent with the use of a blunt instrument, most likely the hoe which in a separate report or page was apparently found to have no trace of his DNA on it.

I think it would be safe to say, if RTP pathologist has done a sloppy job, the "clean up" crew will have done a sloppy job as well, therefore is there is anything to find the British pathologist will find evidence...

Maybe true.

Looking again at the grisly photographs, a blow with the hoe of the same force that was used to shatter Hannah's so as to send splinters of it flying several feet on the rocks, if it had landed on David's jaw would have smash his jaw and maybe taken it off completely, rather than make a neat incision. Equally the blow to his right collar bone would have shattered his collar bone, rather than leave a one inch incision. Bizarre. One or two blows with the hoe would have rendered all the little stab wounds unnecessary or did some one just enjoy doing that.

[Roel]

Would it not be possible that blows with the same weapon even when used with exactly the same force result in different wounds when A. a person is hit on the back of his head possibly whilst fleeing/running or B. a person is hit in the face while the head is steady resting on a (relatively) hard surface.

Compare hitting a coconut dangling from a rope with a machete to hitting it when the coconut is lying on the ground. Surely you can do far more damage when it is lying on the ground using the same force.

[SteveFong]

cover up, that covered up nothing

this should start a new round of internet outrage

[SteveFong]

condoms,

but, no wrappers?

so, someone cleaned up the wrappers, but not the condoms?

[SteveFong]

Respect fot the family?

Those drugs didn't come to Kho Tao in a 24 year olds back pack, did they Mr. Police Chief?

[Dogmatix]

Thinking more about the 'autopsy report' posted online which has the wrong date on it and the name of a doctor from KT hospital on it and the police theory that Hannah and David were both battered to death with the hoe after being interrupted having sex, I think it is more likely that this was actually a report of the finding of the bodies. Although the report form is clearly headed chan-ná-sòot plík sòp which does mean 'autopsy report' it seems inconceivable that the bodies were sent to a cottage hospital in KT.

The other page that is posted online without a heading with the references to DNA of Mr B and Mr C and the finding that both victims died from blows with a blunt instrument, most likely the hoe, contains the same information provided by the police pathologist on TV, appears to be the real autopsy report and I can only presume that it must have been done at the Police General Hospital, although I have not yet seen its header posted online.

[Dogmatix]

Thinking more about the 'autopsy report' posted online which has the wrong date on it and the name of a doctor from KT hospital on it and the police theory that Hannah and David were both battered to death with the hoe after being interrupted having sex, I think it is more likely that this was actually a report of the finding of the bodies. Although the report form is clearly headed chan-ná-sòot plík sòp which does mean 'autopsy report' it seems inconceivable that the bodies were sent to a cottage hospital in KT.

The other page that is posted online without a heading with the references to DNA of Mr B and Mr C and the finding that both victims died from blows with a blunt instrument, most likely the hoe, contains the same information provided by the police pathologist on TV, appears to be the real autopsy report and I can only presume that it must have been done at the Police General Hospital, although I have not yet seen its header posted online.

[SteveFong]

Thinking more about the 'autopsy report' posted online which has the wrong date on it and the name of a doctor from KT hospital on it and the police theory that Hannah and David were both battered to death with the hoe after being interrupted having sex, I think it is more likely that this was actually a report of the finding of the bodies. Although the report form is clearly headed chan-ná-sòot plík sòp which does mean 'autopsy report' it seems inconceivable that the bodies were sent to a cottage hospital in KT.

The other page that is posted online without a heading with the references to DNA of Mr B and Mr C and the finding that both victims died from blows with a blunt instrument, most likely the hoe, contains the same information provided by the police pathologist on TV, appears to be the real autopsy report and I can only presume that it must have been done at the Police General Hospital, although I have not yet seen its header posted online.

it would have to be the early report, and, no one bothered to update it

more chillingly,

the UK detectives used the words, "as far as possible" to describe their work on the case

clearly, it sounds as though, they were obstructed

[SteveFong]

63955_823889991008340_5743071132398685628_n.jpg

In the video this still is grabbed from, which you can easily find on the internet, you can see the running man's hair is very straight and floppy, so that it bounces up to its full length when he runs. Of the 2B one had quite short hair and the other had longish but wavy hair that would not bounce up in such a flowing way at the time of their arrests 9 days after the murders.

No doubt the BiB reviewed this piece of evidence carefully before eliminating other suspects and closing in on the 2B.

what this picture just said to me was,

this is a "messenger"

not one of the killers

[StealthEnergiser]

I forgot to mention that the autopsy report did also say that water was found in David's lungs.

I have now read the cover page or summary of the autopsy report regarding David which is posted separately. It also gives details of the discovery of the body and police surmise as to how death took place.

The page says that David's body was found on 15th November!

I thought the autopsy was done at the Police General Hospital in Bangkok but the cover page cites a doctor at Koh Tao Hospital (I didn't know there was one there).

At the bottom of the page is a little summary of facts regarding when David and Hannah arrived in KT and that they met there. Then it goes on to say that they went to the Sairee beach together and were most likely having sex together, during the course of which they were attacked by the killer (or killers) with a hoe and sustained several wounds resulting in death. (Interesting how accurately the police theory about what happened foreshadowed the confessions the 2B would make a few days later). However, there is no evidence presented in the report for the presumption that the two victims had sex together at all. If this were the case, one would think that David's DNA would be found somewhere on Hannah's body, or at least inside the condom found on the beach. Otherwise, one might suggest that this was one of several possibilities but not supported by any forensic evidence.

Police reports in the media mentioned that some died blond hair was found in one of Hannah's hands and shortly before the arrest of the 2B police said they were about to arrest three Burmese, one of whom had had died blond hair on the night of the murders but had recently died it black again. The autopsy report didn't mention this and police have not referred to it since. None of the two Burmese suspects or their friend who was originally held as a witness had blond hair on the CCTV pictures on the night of the murders and it has never been made clear who the blond Burmese they referred to was. It is strange that no analysis was made of this potentially important piece of evidence. Equally there is no mention of any DNA traces found in Hannah's fingernails or teeth which would most likely have been the case, if she had fought her attackers. Nor is there any suggestion of the presence (or absence) of any other DNA traces in the form of pubic hair, which would normally be deposited in a rape, unless all rapists were completely clean shaven, or other tissue samples, apart from two lots of semen and one man's saliva found on nipples.

Police reports similarly said that David had wounds on his knuckles which he must have sustained as a result of trying to fight off his attackers. No mention of these wounds in the report which implies that he was struck on the head while having sex which presumably precluded fighting back or sustaining wounds on his knuckles.

If I was not aware that the British detectives were full of praise for the Thai police investigation which was exactly how they would have done things in the UK, I might be suspicious that police removed any extraneous details that didn't fit with the scenario they had decided on by the time they wrote the report. However, it is hard to imagine British plods sending the bodies of two murder victims for autopsy to a local cottage hospital which almost certainly wouldn't have the necessary equipment or even a qualified forensic pathologist. Would the plods then be satisfied with a perfunctory autopsy report which might be more appropriate in the case of terminally ill nonagenarians who had peacefully passed away in a hospice? Since we know the plods asserted they would have done exactly the same, I am now wondering how they manage to solve as many murder cases as they do but I am a rank amateur compared to the brilliant sleuths of Koh Tao and Scotland Yard with their common textbook.

All this information on thai visa may very impotant to the British detectives hopefully someone will email all the links to them as it would be very likely they may missed something.

[SteveFong]

there are ample feeds on Twitter from Facebook,

thai visa isn't the center of gravity for the social media tornado that has yet to hit land

[Dogmatix]

Since a number of people have expressed interest in the autopsy report, I have taken the trouble to translate the one page extract from the report that has been posted online. It is unverified and lacks the preamble and signature pages among other things but is consistent with media reports that have appeared and seems likely to be genuine.

" Page 3

4.1.1. Severe injuries to the head and face caused by a hard blunt instrument consistent with the item referred to in the report (hoe found at the crime scene).

4.1.2. The area of the vagina exhibited signs of sexual assault.

4.1.3. Results of toxology.

4.1.3.1. No traces of psychotropics or psychoactive substances in the urine or blood.

4.1.3.2. No toxins from food found in the digestive tract.

4.1.4. Results of biochemical analysis.

4.1.4.1. In the area of the right nipple DNA was found from two individuals, Mr B and Mr C (assigned names).

4.1.4.2. Inside the vagina semen and DNA of Mr B was found.

4.1.4.3. In the vulva semen and DNA of Mr B and Mr C was found.

4.1.4. Cause of death. Severe injuries to the head and face caused by violent blows from a blunt instrument.

4.2. Autopsy report on the body of Mr David William Miller.

4.2.1. Severe injuries to the head and face caused by a hard blunt instrument consistent with the item referred in the report (hoe found at the crime scene).

4.2.2. No signs of sexual assault.

4.2.3. Water found in both sides of the chest cavity. Water induced swelling in both lungs.

4.2.4. Results of toxology.

4.2.4.1. No traces of psychotropics or other psychoactive substances in the urine or blood.

4.2.4.2. No toxins from food found in the digestive tract.

4.2.5. Results of biochemical analysis. No semen found in the anus. "

In the widely vewed interview with Sorayud on Channel 3 that can be found on Youtube, the deputy commander of the Institute of Forensic Science at the Police General Hospital, Police Colonel Dr Bhavat Prateepvisrut presented findings from the autopsy that seem identical to this report.

On 12 October Komchadluek also published an article that reported on the results of the autopsy using the same language as the extract that is translated above.

In addition, Komchadluek also reported that the police had explained the reason why they thought there was no DNA found inside the condom found at the scene with Hanna's blood on the outside. According to Komchadluek, police said that the condom was probably an old one left on the beach and that the blood on the outside of it was dripped from the hoe while the perpetrators were using it to murder her.

I am confused about this theory about the condom as I was under the impression that the condom was found at the spot where David's clothes and a large spatter of David's blood were found, whereas most of Hannah's blood was found by the rock where her body was found but I may be wrong on this point.

[SteveFong]

not as concerned about the condom theory as the explanation of it being old, makes it more likely that it was used, by someone, and thereby would still contain DNA

the fact that no mention of punction wounds when the photos all showed multiple puncture woulds should be enough to keep the armchair detectives and internet idiots blazing new trails of incredulity

[changnaam]

Looking back on the title of this topic, when it started they could not find him, now he does everything to prove he was in Bkk at uni. Wonder why, when they were all looking for him that he did not just pick up the phone and say... " I am here at uni, and have been all weekend "?

[MJP]

Had to remove a link to the Telegraph article on that book that's out.

Reason is, its got a very dodgy line in there about the subject that cannot be discussed.

Check TVF Rule Number One if in doubt.

Sorry 'bout that.

[changnaam]

Still stinks how they changed course so quick, and never referred back to those lines of enquiry again.

[falangjim]

This case has turned into a whopping pile of dung. Since we know the real killers won't be brought to justice, can we at least stop the possible execution and/or imprisonment of Win and Zaw? Really, c'mon. Save the face of the RTP AND simultaneously free the two stitched up Burmese. Thais are brilliant liars and manipulators; I'm sure they can think of something that would be a win-win for both parties.

[AGareth2]

not as concerned about the condom theory as the explanation of it being old, makes it more likely that it was used, by someone, and thereby would still contain DNA

the fact that no mention of punction wounds when the photos all showed multiple puncture woulds should be enough to keep the armchair detectives and internet idiots blazing new trails of incredulity

the fact it has no DNA on the inside but H's on the outside sends shivers down my spine

if there are bruises on the hands of David then it is likely he hit someone

given his size where are the marks on the B2?

likely fighting for his life he would have killed one or both

[greenchair]

A post a day, to remember all the foreigners who have died with no justice in this country.

[jabis]

Anyone remember my conclusion about the KT prosecution on B2 could get dropped, should the BIB not come up with something compelling 'til 84 days limit? Well now even the lawyers have drawn the same conclusions(Source:Thai Tribune).

“The Thai police have encountered severe difficulties because they have no eyewitnesses. When the prosecutor’s office allows the case go to court, it will be heard. And then, if there is not enough evidence at that time, [the two Myanmar workers] may be acquitted,” said lawyer U Aung Myo Thant.

The last augmentation to the detaining period of B2 is now underway, and the case must be prosecuted by Nov 28th.

[T_Dog]

This case has turned into a whopping pile of dung. Since we know the real killers won't be brought to justice, can we at least stop the possible execution and/or imprisonment of Win and Zaw? Really, c'mon. Save the face of the RTP AND simultaneously free the two stitched up Burmese. Thais are brilliant liars and manipulators; I'm sure they can think of something that would be a win-win for both parties.

A person's Sakdina level determines the outcome of most situations in Thailand. It is sad that the real killers are still out there free to do as they please.

[A1Str8]

This case has turned into a whopping pile of dung. Since we know the real killers won't be brought to justice, can we at least stop the possible execution and/or imprisonment of Win and Zaw? Really, c'mon. Save the face of the RTP AND simultaneously free the two stitched up Burmese. Thais are brilliant liars and manipulators; I'm sure they can think of something that would be a win-win for both parties.

Thais are very far from brilliant liars they are more like kids trying to cover their wrongdoings in an immature way but i hope for the best outcome.

[Dogmatix]

I noticed an interesting quote in Thai from an interview of the head person on Thai Rath TV.

"All the (CCTV) information has come from my family, which has given complete cooperation to the police. If we were really guilty, why would we dare provide the CCTV images for the whole world to see?"

I am not suggesting they are guilty but I can hazard a few guesses as to why they might want to hand over CCTV footage, if its so happened that they were:

1. It might imply guilt, if they refused to hand over footage or deleted all of it which could probably be recovered by experts anyway, unless they totally destroyed all the discs from each of their businesses which would be even more suspicious. If they refused to cooperate, police could easily have obtained warrants to seize the discs.

2. Cooperating with authorities might have allowed them to be selective about what footage was handed over or whether it was edited in some way. I recall a police comment to the effect that police had no power to demand the 2 minutes cut out of the running man video, the beginning of which appeared to show a second person, because it was the bar owner's private property. (Incidentally it is not very believable that Thai police are the only police in the world with no ability to get a warrant to seize evidence in a murder investigation.)

It is a bit like the rhetorical question asked by the authorities of how could police dare to arrest scapegoats and let other suspects go in such a high profile case with the whole world watching. If the past is any guide to the future - very easily. Just google Sherry Anne Duncan and Kirsty Jones for starters.

[Dogmatix]

This case has turned into a whopping pile of dung. Since we know the real killers won't be brought to justice, can we at least stop the possible execution and/or imprisonment of Win and Zaw? Really, c'mon. Save the face of the RTP AND simultaneously free the two stitched up Burmese. Thais are brilliant liars and manipulators; I'm sure they can think of something that would be a win-win for both parties.

Just brain storming but the former mayor and mafia chief of Patong who was under investigation for racketeering mysteriously died in his bathroom.

[Dogmatix]

This case has turned into a whopping pile of dung. Since we know the real killers won't be brought to justice, can we at least stop the possible execution and/or imprisonment of Win and Zaw? Really, c'mon. Save the face of the RTP AND simultaneously free the two stitched up Burmese. Thais are brilliant liars and manipulators; I'm sure they can think of something that would be a win-win for both parties.

A person's Sakdina level determines the outcome of most situations in Thailand. It is sad that the real killers are still out there free to do as they please.

True. Most are not good liars at all but those at the top of Sakdina totem pole don't even feel the need to tell convincing lies. They can rely on their power to intimidate people not to dare challenge their bare faced lies. Sometimes it is like a poker game where one bare faced lie outranks another, based not on credibility but the relative places in the Sakdina pecking order of the liars.

[Dogmatix]

Spring TV has aired a 38 minute documentary in Thai by their journalist, Ms Siriporn, which sets out the progress to date and the timeline of the investigation quite well. Interestingly there is no mention at all of the former head family of interest which has now been formally declared uninteresting after thorough police investigation of DNA and alibis, not even a mention of the formal declaration of disinterest in them. Seems the media are scared even to mention what was the police's second line of enquiry after Chris Ware. Regarding the latter, the programme showed a policemen early in the investigation saying that the violence of the crime indicated that it could not have been committed by Thais, who presumably are far more gentle and considerate rapists and murderers. This observation must have been what led police to suspect that Mr Ware had committed both murders by himself in a fit of homosexual jealousy.

Also of interest was a comment on the results of the autopsy against a frame of the commander of the police Institute of Forensic Medicine, a police major general wearing a white doctor's coat, where Ms Siriporn mentioned that the autopsy had found severe bruising on David's hands indicating that he had fought back.

[AleG]

Still stinks how they changed course so quick, and never referred back to those lines of enquiry again.

Why does it stink? They initially named a suspect, evidence cleared him, they moved on.

It happens all the time in crime investigation, albeit usually without releasing the info to the media to prevent the debacle that ensued, or would you rather have the first suspect that is named be found guilty even when further evidence exculpates him/them?

[mojorison]

A post a day, to remember all the foreigners who have died with no justice in this country.

These threads need constant bumping to stay in the minds of anyone who cares about justice and dead children. Don't let them think we've forgotten. That's what they want. A few more silly deaths, and car accidents and lottery wins and ghost stories and soap scandal, and the real stories get diluted and hosed into the gutter.

[changnaam]

Still stinks how they changed course so quick, and never referred back to those lines of enquiry again.

Why does it stink? They initially named a suspect, evidence cleared him, they moved on.

It happens all the time in crime investigation, albeit usually without releasing the info to the media to prevent the debacle that ensued, or would you rather have the first suspect that is named be found guilty even when further evidence exculpates him/them?

MR "G" , did you not read that they had evidence, and were confident that they were on the right trail. They only cleared him after the investigation team were changed.

Does that not arouse suspicion ? One team confident they are on the right track, new team comes in and they clear suspects and look elsewhere.

I am not sure what evidence cleared him? You talking about CCTV, DNA, witnesses?

[Artisi]

This case has turned into a whopping pile of dung. Since we know the real killers won't be brought to justice, can we at least stop the possible execution and/or imprisonment of Win and Zaw? Really, c'mon. Save the face of the RTP AND simultaneously free the two stitched up Burmese. Thais are brilliant liars and manipulators; I'm sure they can think of something that would be a win-win for both parties.

A person's Sakdina level determines the outcome of most situations in Thailand. It is sad that the real killers are still out there free to do as they please.

Yes, it's a fair bet the real killer/s are still out there and maybe one day he / they will slip-up and rape / murder one of the chosen (Sakdina) - this will cause big trouble and the connection the killer/s have will be terminated very abruptly.