Lessons on democracy to be taught shortly

[Robespiere]

This is all good stuff, especially when the country is currently operating under Obrigkeitsstaat.

The irony is classical Thai.

Not picking on you Gsxrnz, just using your reply to make a point

No Irony in a dictatorship teaching democracy at all, dont know why anyone would think so.

We would all agree, that democracy was suspended in Thailand, because it was not working. We can all argue as to why it was not working, and who was to blame, but the fact remains that it was not working,

Obviously the people involved in it had no clear understanding on the basic tenants of Democracy , on that respect Thailand is not along in the world.

So now we are where we are,

If we want democracy restored, would we not also want those involved to have a better understanding of the concept?

and if so would it not educating the people involved, on the concept of Democracy, be one of the measures necessary, in restoring Democracy?

So let's not put the horse before the cart,

before people can have democracy, people need to understand what democracy is, and what their role in it is

No Irony in a dictatorship wanting to educate people in what Democracy is before it allows them to practice it.

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

If by democracy you mean being paid for your vote, or by shutting the city down for weeks, destroying the economy, depriving people of their livelihood, and shutting the government down, then I stand corrected.

Vote buying (practiced by all political parties) has not affected the outcome to any great degree in Thailand of any election Thaksin or his proxies have won since 2001.

Pretty much all of Thailands' political problems stem from one, and only one thing - the refusal of one side of the contest to accept the will of the people freely expressed at the ballot box.

The sooner the yellow side accepts election results and instead of doing all they can to destroy democracy start focusing on developing a set of policies that will enable them to win an election in their own right the sooner the nation can get back on track.

The yellow struggle is against the tide of human history and destined to fail - better to accept reality now and spare everyone the unnecessary suffering they are causing, accept a period of PTP rule and get themselves organised into an electable entity.

[tbthailand]

One supposes that the irony is lost on the present 'leadership'.

Not sure there. The NCPO is certainly aware and has said that certain restrictions now are only in place to help stabilise, reduce the political BS and hopefully help in defining reforms with input of most Thai and acceptable by most Thai. Part of reforms is teaching democratic values. That's something to be done now, not in a years time.

Will part of the reforms include a referendum on the new constitution??

don't ask such questions as it pulls the pants down on the 'most Thais' illusion.

btw, a referendum is of no use what so ever when the NRC is hand-picked and the NCPO can change the resulting constitution at will. I remember the last time the military wrote the constitution.

[tbthailand]

This is all good stuff, especially when the country is currently operating under Obrigkeitsstaat.

The irony is classical Thai.

Not picking on you Gsxrnz, just using your reply to make a point

No Irony in a dictatorship teaching democracy at all, dont know why anyone would think so.

We would all agree, that democracy was suspended in Thailand, because it was not working. We can all argue as to why it was not working, and who was to blame, but the fact remains that it was not working,

Obviously the people involved in it had no clear understanding on the basic tenants of Democracy , on that respect Thailand is not along in the world.

So now we are where we are,

If we want democracy restored, would we not also want those involved to have a better understanding of the concept?

and if so would it not educating the people involved, on the concept of Democracy, be one of the measures necessary, in restoring Democracy?

So let's not put the horse before the cart,

before people can have democracy, people need to understand what democracy is, and what their role in it is

No Irony in a dictatorship wanting to educate people in what Democracy is before it allows them to practice it.

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

anecdotally I know rather poor and high school educated but proud rice farmers who are very democratic. I also know university educated business owners who are very undemocratic.

IMO education is not the problem. Understanding democracy is not the problem.

The problem as you point out is the elite class which doesn't actually want democracy at all.

[halloween]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

[tbthailand]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

another poster who fails to realize that democracy begins with one person one vote.

'nuff said.

[rubl]

One supposes that the irony is lost on the present 'leadership'.

Not sure there. The NCPO is certainly aware and has said that certain restrictions now are only in place to help stabilise, reduce the political BS and hopefully help in defining reforms with input of most Thai and acceptable by most Thai. Part of reforms is teaching democratic values. That's something to be done now, not in a years time.

Will part of the reforms include a referendum on the new constitution??

A referendum is not a reform, but might be part of a process / procedure.

The NRC is still in startup phase and still needs to process any input received till now following which they need to work on getting more input from a broad spectre of the Thai society after which they need to try to form proposals on reforms, proposals which can be accepted by most Thai.

So, ask again next year.

[Robespiere]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

Another who ignores the forces acting against democracy in this nation and the tremendous power they continue to wield.

The Thai judiciary is far from "blind and just" especially when it comes to politics. Ditto the Electoral Commission, the NACC etc.etc.etc.

All elected governments in Thailand operate with one hand tied behind their back as they have never been able to fully wrest power away from the old establishment (namely the plutocracy and the military).

No matter how great the electoral victory there are certain aspect of Thai society that are beyond the control of civilian governments, there are vested interests that are protected by powerful people.

[halloween]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

Another who ignores the forces acting against democracy in this nation and the tremendous power they continue to wield.

The Thai judiciary is far from "blind and just" especially when it comes to politics. Ditto the Electoral Commission, the NACC etc.etc.etc.

All elected governments in Thailand operate with one hand tied behind their back as they have never been able to fully wrest power away from the old establishment (namely the plutocracy and the military).

No matter how great the electoral victory there are certain aspect of Thai society that are beyond the control of civilian governments, there are vested interests that are protected by powerful people.

Well you seem to ignore the problems I had with the last "democracy". Why don't you counter with some of the democracy high points of the Yingluk administration?

[Robespiere]

One supposes that the irony is lost on the present 'leadership'.

Not sure there. The NCPO is certainly aware and has said that certain restrictions now are only in place to help stabilise, reduce the political BS and hopefully help in defining reforms with input of most Thai and acceptable by most Thai. Part of reforms is teaching democratic values. That's something to be done now, not in a years time.

Will part of the reforms include a referendum on the new constitution??

A referendum is not a reform, but might be part of a process / procedure.

The NRC is still in startup phase and still needs to process any input received till now following which they need to work on getting more input from a broad spectre of the Thai society after which they need to try to form proposals on reforms, proposals which can be accepted by most Thai.

So, ask again next year.

And your opinion on the matter?

If there is to be no referendum - if the Thai people are not allowed a say in THEIR new constitution will you be disappointed or will you be happy that the anti-democracy that you so vociferously cheer now will continue?

[rubl]

One supposes that the irony is lost on the present 'leadership'.

Not sure there. The NCPO is certainly aware and has said that certain restrictions now are only in place to help stabilise, reduce the political BS and hopefully help in defining reforms with input of most Thai and acceptable by most Thai. Part of reforms is teaching democratic values. That's something to be done now, not in a years time.

Will part of the reforms include a referendum on the new constitution??

don't ask such questions as it pulls the pants down on the 'most Thais' illusion.

btw, a referendum is of no use what so ever when the NRC is hand-picked and the NCPO can change the resulting constitution at will. I remember the last time the military wrote the constitution.

Oh come on guys. You only seem interesting in trying to pull down the NCPO with suggestions, insinuations, half truths and lies. You guys don't seem interested in helping Thailand to move forward.

BTW a referendum is no reform, but might be part of a process / procedure. Ask again next year.

PS just checked, but all Thai confirmed my pants are up.

[rubl]

anecdotally I know rather poor and high school educated but proud rice farmers who are very democratic. I also know university educated business owners who are very undemocratic.

IMO education is not the problem. Understanding democracy is not the problem.

The problem as you point out is the elite class which doesn't actually want democracy at all.

You contradict yourself, my dear chap.

If "educated business owners who are very undemocratic" is true that would indicate that for some understanding democracy is a problem.

Your last sentence is disjunct from the other two. Probably because it's part of a program on obfuscation.

[Phillip Sell]

Before the installation of the new Prime Minister, you had major civil disobedience which was tearing Thailand apart. Sometimes,Democracy has to be suspended to protect it's citizens, and focus on the real issues of the country.......I think this is the case.

[Robespiere]

Before the installation of the new Prime Minister, you had major civil disobedience which was tearing Thailand apart. Sometimes,Democracy has to be suspended to protect it's citizens, and focus on the real issues of the country.......I think this is the case.

The key to democracy is losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election.

In Thailand this does not occur.

Here the losers quite deliberately "tear the country apart" to create the opening for the military to step in via a coup (and then hand power to the losers).

Democracy has been suspended only because the losers cannot accept their defeat and THIS is the real issue destroying the country.

You and your ilk, Phillip Sell, are part of the problem as your gullibility provides a veneer of legitimacy to the usurpers.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Robespiere

[rubl]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

Another who ignores the forces acting against democracy in this nation and the tremendous power they continue to wield.

The Thai judiciary is far from "blind and just" especially when it comes to politics. Ditto the Electoral Commission, the NACC etc.etc.etc.

All elected governments in Thailand operate with one hand tied behind their back as they have never been able to fully wrest power away from the old establishment (namely the plutocracy and the military).

No matter how great the electoral victory there are certain aspect of Thai society that are beyond the control of civilian governments, there are vested interests that are protected by powerful people.

Interesting all this talk about 'old elite'. Especially since 'new elite' seems to have been busy to try to tie one hand of the courts themselves.

All nonsense about the bias seems to ignore the double standards displayed by especially Pheu Thai when rulings are only 'right' when not against them.

[sirineou]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

If by democracy you mean being paid for your vote, or by shutting the city down for weeks, destroying the economy, depriving people of their livelihood, and shutting the government down, then I stand corrected.

Vote buying (practiced by all political parties) has not affected the outcome to any great degree in Thailand of any election Thaksin or his proxies have won since 2001.

Pretty much all of Thailands' political problems stem from one, and only one thing - the refusal of one side of the contest to accept the will of the people freely expressed at the ballot box.

The sooner the yellow side accepts election results and instead of doing all they can to destroy democracy start focusing on developing a set of policies that will enable them to win an election in their own right the sooner the nation can get back on track.

The yellow struggle is against the tide of human history and destined to fail - better to accept reality now and spare everyone the unnecessary suffering they are causing, accept a period of PTP rule and get themselves organised into an electable entity.

i cant believe that any one would , with a straight face, argue that vote buying has no affect in the outcome of an election,

I would like to see how long such practice would last in Europe, or the US,

But be that as it may, I said and I quote

"We can all argue as to why it was not working, and who was to blame, but the fact remains that it was not working,

So the question remains. Was Democracy working in Thailand?

Not from my perspective, The democratic process had being hijacked by a few with a political agenda and it was leading the country to ruin.

I am not going to play the blame game, there is plenty of blame to go around, but if anyone thinks that the democratic process was functioning well prior to the coup, then I think we have no basis for discussion,

But you are all missing the point of this thread, the point is about education in Democracy, Do you all think the military junta should be promoting education in democracy? .

I think personally that before you give some one a bike, a lesson in bike riding is a good idea , of course others might disagree.

[halloween]

Before the installation of the new Prime Minister, you had major civil disobedience which was tearing Thailand apart. Sometimes,Democracy has to be suspended to protect it's citizens, and focus on the real issues of the country.......I think this is the case.

The key to democracy is losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election.

In Thailand this does not occur.

Here the losers quite deliberately "tear the country apart" to create the opening for the military to step in via a coup (and then hand power to the losers).

Democracy has been suspended only because the losers cannot accept their defeat and THIS is the real issue destroying the country.

You and your ilk, Phillip Sell, are part of the problem as your gullibility provides a veneer of legitimacy to the usurpers.

As it seems I'll be waiting a long time for the democratic Yingluk's highlights, I'll reply to this piece of garbage. can you not conceive of any actions of an elected government that would warrant its removal?

Even in democratic countries with well developed (and funded) oversight bodies, governments PMs and Presidents have been forced from office. In Thailand where these bodies are weak (and starved thanks to Yingluk), massive corruption should be allowed, criminal pandering to an unelected autocrat is fine, and B700+ billion lost in an idiotic scam should be allowed to continue - because that's how YOU think democracy should work.

So when does the reign of terror start?

[rubl]

Before the installation of the new Prime Minister, you had major civil disobedience which was tearing Thailand apart. Sometimes,Democracy has to be suspended to protect it's citizens, and focus on the real issues of the country.......I think this is the case.

The key to democracy is losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election.

In Thailand this does not occur.

Here the losers quite deliberately "tear the country apart" to create the opening for the military to step in via a coup (and then hand power to the losers).

Democracy has been suspended only because the losers cannot accept their defeat and THIS is the real issue destroying the country.

You and your ilk, Phillip Sell, are part of the problem as your gullibility provides a veneer of legitimacy to the usurpers.

In a democracy people talk, both ruling party and opposition party talk . In Thailand the Pheu Thai party not only tried to ignore the opposition, but even obstructed them actively.

Maybe the PHeu Thai party list MPs of UDD leader or 'normal' red-shirt leader type brought along the handbook of the 'red-shirt school for democracy' curriculum.

Edited September 28, 2014 by rubl

[brucec64]

"An election is not the only solution for democracy, which needs to have the standardised rule of law..."

The people who have toppled the government, suspended the constitution, suspended basic human rights (freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of association, etc.) and granted themselves amnesty for their actions are going to teach 'standardized rule of law'?

They could also explain "conflicts of interest" and "insider trading" pointing out that these are actually illegal and should not be why politicians seek the job. Then they could move on to "nepotism and cronyism", emphasis being made that they are NOT desirable in a democracy, even if your retarded cousin needs a job.

I admit the concept of altruism is going to be a hard sell, but it really wouldn't hurt to let people know that it exists.

Maybe they can start with asking the students the following question:

One of the new NLA members just appointed is Preecha Buawiratlert, a brother of fortune teller Warin, whom Deputy Prime Minister Gen Prawit Wongsuwon likes to visit.

Is this:

a) good governance

b} cronyism

c) completely ridiculous

Here is a hint - definitely not a)...

Edited September 28, 2014 by brucec64

[Robespiere]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

If by democracy you mean being paid for your vote, or by shutting the city down for weeks, destroying the economy, depriving people of their livelihood, and shutting the government down, then I stand corrected.

Vote buying (practiced by all political parties) has not affected the outcome to any great degree in Thailand of any election Thaksin or his proxies have won since 2001.

Pretty much all of Thailands' political problems stem from one, and only one thing - the refusal of one side of the contest to accept the will of the people freely expressed at the ballot box.

The sooner the yellow side accepts election results and instead of doing all they can to destroy democracy start focusing on developing a set of policies that will enable them to win an election in their own right the sooner the nation can get back on track.

The yellow struggle is against the tide of human history and destined to fail - better to accept reality now and spare everyone the unnecessary suffering they are causing, accept a period of PTP rule and get themselves organised into an electable entity.

i cant believe that any one would , with a straight face, argue that vote buying has no affect in the outcome of an election,

I would like to see how long such practice would last in Europe, or the US,

But be that as it may, I said and I quote

"We can all argue as to why it was not working, and who was to blame, but the fact remains that it was not working,

So the question remains. Was Democracy working in Thailand?

Not from my perspective, The democratic process had being hijacked by a few with a political agenda and it was leading the country to ruin.

I am not going to play the blame game, there is plenty of blame to go around, but if anyone thinks that the democratic process was functioning well prior to the coup, then I think we have no basis for discussion,

But you are all missing the point of this thread, the point is about education in Democracy, Do you all think the military junta should be promoting education in democracy? .

I think personally that before you give some one a bike, a lesson in bike riding is a good idea , of course others might disagree.

Vote buying has had no great affect on the outcome of elections in Thailand because the number of votes "bought" is far too insignificant to alter the outcome.

Put another way, Thaksin and his parties have been far too popular, winning by such large margins that whatever vote buying has occurred achieved very little.

The democratic process wasn't hijacked, it was never allowed to fully function as it was / is under constant attack from the old establishment who know that a democratic Thailand means and end to their cronyism and looting of the nations wealth.

There's nothing tricky about democracy that requires the nation to be educated, what is required is that the old establishment to stop meddling in affairs through their control of the permanent institutions of state - proper independence of the judiciary etc. is what is required for democracy to flourish in this nation - not a state funded brain washing campaign.

[fab4]

Oh come on guys. You only seem interesting in trying to pull down the NCPO with suggestions, insinuations, half truths and lies. You guys don't seem interested in helping Thailand to move forward.

BTW a referendum is no reform, but might be part of a process / procedure. Ask again next year.

PS just checked, but all Thai confirmed my pants are up.

The day you accept that the way forward for Thai democracy does not involve military coups will be the day you finally have something worthwhile to champion.

[Robespiere]

Before the installation of the new Prime Minister, you had major civil disobedience which was tearing Thailand apart. Sometimes,Democracy has to be suspended to protect it's citizens, and focus on the real issues of the country.......I think this is the case.

The key to democracy is losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election.

In Thailand this does not occur.

Here the losers quite deliberately "tear the country apart" to create the opening for the military to step in via a coup (and then hand power to the losers).

Democracy has been suspended only because the losers cannot accept their defeat and THIS is the real issue destroying the country.

You and your ilk, Phillip Sell, are part of the problem as your gullibility provides a veneer of legitimacy to the usurpers.

As it seems I'll be waiting a long time for the democratic Yingluk's highlights, I'll reply to this piece of garbage. can you not conceive of any actions of an elected government that would warrant its removal?

Even in democratic countries with well developed (and funded) oversight bodies, governments PMs and Presidents have been forced from office. In Thailand where these bodies are weak (and starved thanks to Yingluk), massive corruption should be allowed, criminal pandering to an unelected autocrat is fine, and B700+ billion lost in an idiotic scam should be allowed to continue - because that's how YOU think democracy should work.

So when does the reign of terror start?

Hosting a cooking show warrants the removal of an elected Prime Minister??

The independent oversight bodies in Thailand aren't weak, they are extremely powerful. The problem is that they are not independent but operate under the control of an unelected few via an incestuous appointment process birthed in the butchering of the 1997 constitution by a previous unelected coup regime. These "weak" oversight bodies have silenced the voices of the people of the nation on numerous occasions throwing out elected government after elected government.

Policies that subsidies a nations agricultural industries aren't corruption or idiotic scams but are mechanisms used by normal competent governments of all persuasions the world over to sustain and protect their nations food sources and to pump capital into rural regions to generate economic activity and growth.

Losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election is not how i think democracy should work - it IS how democracy works.

The reign of terror, the assault on freedom and the curbing of individuals civil rights began the day democracy ended.

[rubl]

Oh come on guys. You only seem interesting in trying to pull down the NCPO with suggestions, insinuations, half truths and lies. You guys don't seem interested in helping Thailand to move forward.

BTW a referendum is no reform, but might be part of a process / procedure. Ask again next year.

PS just checked, but all Thai confirmed my pants are up.

The day you accept that the way forward for Thai democracy does not involve military coups will be the day you finally have something worthwhile to champion.

You forgot the IMO, IMHO.

BTW I vaguely remember Gen. Prayut saying something like "this should be the last coup". I have doubts. If Thai are as tunnel visioned as a few posters here and it will be politics as usual end of next year, we will all have learned that Thailand will have lost all the years in this century.

Championing reforms and getting Thai to really cooperate, put forward ideas, etc., etc. seems very worthwhile indeed. At least some of us think so. Other want to go back to chaos instead, it would seem.

[sirineou]

Vote buying (practiced by all political parties) has not affected the outcome to any great degree in Thailand of any election Thaksin or his proxies have won since 2001.

Pretty much all of Thailands' political problems stem from one, and only one thing - the refusal of one side of the contest to accept the will of the people freely expressed at the ballot box.

The sooner the yellow side accepts election results and instead of doing all they can to destroy democracy start focusing on developing a set of policies that will enable them to win an election in their own right the sooner the nation can get back on track.

The yellow struggle is against the tide of human history and destined to fail - better to accept reality now and spare everyone the unnecessary suffering they are causing, accept a period of PTP rule and get themselves organised into an electable entity.

i cant believe that any one would , with a straight face, argue that vote buying has no affect in the outcome of an election,

I would like to see how long such practice would last in Europe, or the US,

But be that as it may, I said and I quote

"We can all argue as to why it was not working, and who was to blame, but the fact remains that it was not working,

So the question remains. Was Democracy working in Thailand?

Not from my perspective, The democratic process had being hijacked by a few with a political agenda and it was leading the country to ruin.

I am not going to play the blame game, there is plenty of blame to go around, but if anyone thinks that the democratic process was functioning well prior to the coup, then I think we have no basis for discussion,

But you are all missing the point of this thread, the point is about education in Democracy, Do you all think the military junta should be promoting education in democracy? .

I think personally that before you give some one a bike, a lesson in bike riding is a good idea , of course others might disagree.

Vote buying has had no great affect on the outcome of elections in Thailand because the number of votes "bought" is far too insignificant to alter the outcome.

Put another way, Thaksin and his parties have been far too popular, winning by such large margins that whatever vote buying has occurred achieved very little.

The democratic process wasn't hijacked, it was never allowed to fully function as it was / is under constant attack from the old establishment who know that a democratic Thailand means and end to their cronyism and looting of the nations wealth.

There's nothing tricky about democracy that requires the nation to be educated, what is required is that the old establishment to stop meddling in affairs through their control of the permanent institutions of state - proper independence of the judiciary etc. is what is required for democracy to flourish in this nation - not a state funded brain washing campaign.

,.Everything that you say is arguable,and a lot of it I agree with (ps: I was a Thaksin supporter) I am sure there others who would disagree with you on much. especially since vote buying was not the only thing wrong with the democratic process in Thailand Unfortunately this thread is about education in democracy we can argue with the whys until we are blue in the face. and judging by the many threads running manu have.

As I said this thread is about education in democracy, not education.

If we do believe that the process was broken

I cant believe that anyone would argue that education in democracy could not have a positive influence in the process regardless who is sponsoring it

it. It is only a small first step, other reforms are necessary, but an Independent Judiciary system with proper checks and balances would be necessary to oversee any additional reforms otherwise they will not be worth the paper they are written on .

[Robespiere]

Vote buying (practiced by all political parties) has not affected the outcome to any great degree in Thailand of any election Thaksin or his proxies have won since 2001.

Pretty much all of Thailands' political problems stem from one, and only one thing - the refusal of one side of the contest to accept the will of the people freely expressed at the ballot box.

The sooner the yellow side accepts election results and instead of doing all they can to destroy democracy start focusing on developing a set of policies that will enable them to win an election in their own right the sooner the nation can get back on track.

The yellow struggle is against the tide of human history and destined to fail - better to accept reality now and spare everyone the unnecessary suffering they are causing, accept a period of PTP rule and get themselves organised into an electable entity.

i cant believe that any one would , with a straight face, argue that vote buying has no affect in the outcome of an election,

I would like to see how long such practice would last in Europe, or the US,

But be that as it may, I said and I quote

"We can all argue as to why it was not working, and who was to blame, but the fact remains that it was not working,

So the question remains. Was Democracy working in Thailand?

Not from my perspective, The democratic process had being hijacked by a few with a political agenda and it was leading the country to ruin.

I am not going to play the blame game, there is plenty of blame to go around, but if anyone thinks that the democratic process was functioning well prior to the coup, then I think we have no basis for discussion,

But you are all missing the point of this thread, the point is about education in Democracy, Do you all think the military junta should be promoting education in democracy? .

I think personally that before you give some one a bike, a lesson in bike riding is a good idea , of course others might disagree.

Vote buying has had no great affect on the outcome of elections in Thailand because the number of votes "bought" is far too insignificant to alter the outcome.

Put another way, Thaksin and his parties have been far too popular, winning by such large margins that whatever vote buying has occurred achieved very little.

The democratic process wasn't hijacked, it was never allowed to fully function as it was / is under constant attack from the old establishment who know that a democratic Thailand means and end to their cronyism and looting of the nations wealth.

There's nothing tricky about democracy that requires the nation to be educated, what is required is that the old establishment to stop meddling in affairs through their control of the permanent institutions of state - proper independence of the judiciary etc. is what is required for democracy to flourish in this nation - not a state funded brain washing campaign.

,.Everything that you say is arguable,and a lot of it I agree with (ps: I was a Thaksin supporter) I am sure there others who would disagree with you on much. especially since vote buying was not the only thing wrong with the democratic process in Thailand Unfortunately this thread is about education in democracy we can argue with the whys until we are blue in the face. and judging by the many threads running manu have.

As I said this thread is about education in democracy, not education.

If we do believe that the process was broken

I cant believe that anyone would argue that education in democracy could not have a positive influence in the process regardless who is sponsoring it

it. It is only a small first step, other reforms are necessary, but an Independent Judiciary system with proper checks and balances would be necessary to oversee any additional reforms otherwise they will not be worth the paper they are written on .

What is the root cause of the malfunctioning of democracy in Thailand?

It is the unwillingness of the minority (electoral losers - YELLOWS) to accept the wishes of the majority (electoral winners - REDS) expressed at the ballot box.

Having been serial electoral failures for the previous 6 elections - these losers now want to educate the people on how democracy is meant to work.

They believe that the fault is not with themselves, but with an uneducated (read buffalo) population - and you buy this nonsense.

The argument against the proposed "education in democracy" is that the teachers aren't interested in explaining and promoting democracy, they are opposed to it and therefore are doing their best to try and pass off a dead skunk bastardised version of democracy (otherwise referred to as Thai style democracy) that facilitates the continuation of a a system whereby the minority rules over the majority - the exact opposite of modern democracy.

[heybruce]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

"However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies."

Are you writing about before or after the coup?

If you were writing about before the coup, do you think that Prayuth and the military want to bring 'real democracy to Thailand? Prayuth has made it clear it is not his first priority.

[brucec64]

Quote

accurately understand democracy

Unquote

This is troubling coming from a man who ceased power.

You are probably new to Thailand. It was necessary to seize power in order to start Thailand on the road of democracy. It had been a Government of one family for 11 of the last 14 years. Even the three years it was out it carried enough power to affectively block the in government from making many changes. It also created an army of terrorists and launched them on to Thailand. They also set up a school to teach democracy and when you passed it you could join the terrorists practicing it's brand of Democracy.

Maybe before you post you should look up the facts. Not only what Thailand has had in the past but what the man is trying to do for Thailand.

If you were one of those who have lost a lot of money as a result of the cutting back on corruption and their are many who are. Also they are vocal about the fact that there is a non elected government in power supported by the majority of the people fighting corruption rather than encouraging it. I offer you my condolences.

I am not making a personal accusation it is just a general one. I have no idea if you fall into that category or not.

There seems to be a common theme on this forum that basically states that Thailand was not a democracy, or that the previous government only adhered to one element of democracy, elections, and did not adhere to any others.

That is a very simplistic premise, and basically wrong. Democracy, or any other form of governance, is never an on-off situation. For example, you cannot simply state that "rule of law" was not adhered to by the previous government. There may have been cases that it was not, but many magnitudes more cases where it was adhered to. Any political system is a sliding scale.

The following website http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=738 gives a democracy ranking for 115 countries. Thailand ranked 65 in 2013, roughly in the middle of the pack. The interesting thing is that the ranking increased from 2008-2009 to 2001-2012, the period that Yingluck was in power. The 50 countries rated below Thailand have not found it neccessary to seize power to get onto the road to democracy.

Country

Score 2008-2009

Rank 2008-2009

Score 2011-2012

Rank 2011-2012

Rank Change 2008-2012

102 Thailand 51.2 74 54.2 65 +9

I will be interested to see where the ranking will be for 2014, after power was seized "in order to start Thailand on the road of democracy".

[AleG]

Anyone who argues that a country that places a useless figurehead like Yingluck as PM, to be remote controlled by her unelected criminal brother from abroad is a functional democracy is a sandwich short of a picnic, because that scenario is an obscene mockery of what a State of Rights (or Rechsstaat as put in the OP) entails.

[northernjohn]

Lessons on the dangers of corruption are all that is needed.

Don't need lessons just look at the Shinawatra family.

[northernjohn]

Anyone who argues that a country that places a useless figurehead like Yingluck as PM, to be remote controlled by her unelected criminal brother from abroad is a functional democracy is a sandwich short of a picnic, because that scenario is an obscene mockery of what a State of Rights (or Rechsstaat as put in the OP) entails.

I like it.

How ever I believe you were giving the Yingluck lovers to much credit.

[sirineou]

Quote

accurately understand democracy

Unquote

This is troubling coming from a man who ceased power.

You are probably new to Thailand. It was necessary to seize power in order to start Thailand on the road of democracy. It had been a Government of one family for 11 of the last 14 years. Even the three years it was out it carried enough power to affectively block the in government from making many changes. It also created an army of terrorists and launched them on to Thailand. They also set up a school to teach democracy and when you passed it you could join the terrorists practicing it's brand of Democracy.

Maybe before you post you should look up the facts. Not only what Thailand has had in the past but what the man is trying to do for Thailand.

If you were one of those who have lost a lot of money as a result of the cutting back on corruption and their are many who are. Also they are vocal about the fact that there is a non elected government in power supported by the majority of the people fighting corruption rather than encouraging it. I offer you my condolences.

I am not making a personal accusation it is just a general one. I have no idea if you fall into that category or not.

There seems to be a common theme on this forum that basically states that Thailand was not a democracy, or that the previous government only adhered to one element of democracy, elections, and did not adhere to any others.

That is a very simplistic premise, and basically wrong. Democracy, or any other form of governance, is never an on-off situation. For example, you cannot simply state that "rule of law" was not adhered to by the previous government. There may have been cases that it was not, but many magnitudes more cases where it was adhered to. Any political system is a sliding scale.

The following website http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=738 gives a democracy ranking for 115 countries. Thailand ranked 65 in 2013, roughly in the middle of the pack. The interesting thing is that the ranking increased from 2008-2009 to 2001-2012, the period that Yingluck was in power. The 50 countries rated below Thailand have not found it neccessary to seize power to get onto the road to democracy.

Country

Score 2008-2009

Rank 2008-2009

Score 2011-2012

Rank 2011-2012

Rank Change 2008-2012

102 Thailand 51.2 74 54.2 65 +9

I will be interested to see where the ranking will be for 2014, after power was seized "in order to start Thailand on the road of democracy".

When the coup happened I was just as shocked and outraged as most of you, in retrospect I have softened my position .

in the months previously to the coup Thailand was in a very dangerous situation IMO. We seem all seem to want to argue a particular aspect of the situation,but the whole situation on the aggravate was unsustainable. I dont want to mention any specific problems, because people will miss my point and want to argue that particular problem.

Cant we all agree that the political situation previous to the coup was unsustainable? Did the Judiciary do a good job in defusing the situation? was Yingluck successful in defusing the situation and governing?was the opposition proposing any viable solutions?do we all have such short memories?

Now we have people arguing against education? Is it possible that some people will take a contrary position regardless what the issue is? We all need some education in democracy, Where was it mentioned that the education will be targeted towards the " buffalo" of the north east as some have mentioned? When I went to school in the US I remember taking courses in civics, why would it not be beneficial if such courses were available to Thais.

That Thailand ranked in the middle of the pack below Albania is not an enviable position with which one should be content and I am sure the ranking did not take in to account the events leading to the coup.

I also wonder what the ranking would had being if the country was allowed to descent in ti civil war.