French owner won't reimburse my deposit in Thailand

[Magudo]

Hello,

I am sorry to bother you with my problems, but after nearly 2 years living in Thailand I still don't know very well how to proceed in certain cases.

I started my condo rent in March and gave a deposit of 2 months, the theoretical owner of the apartment is based in Tahiti, French Polynesia. He uses a company based in Thailand as his representatives who manage his property, they seem to be French and Thai, and they seem to be the same company who manages all of the condos in the building. I have never talked directly to my landlord until this week.

In my contract there was no indication about the consequences of breaking the lease before the end of the period of 1 year.

In August I was told that I will be relocated by my company to the US. I told the news to the representatives, they replied to my e-mail saying that it was OK. I came to speak with the representative in person to offer to look for someone to take over the lease, they told me that it wasn't necessary as I warned them 2 months in advance. I asked if they wanted me to tell the real state agents to help to look for someone, they told me not to, and said that they would even pay me the normal agent fee if I found someone else to take over. They also told me that the letter I sent was enough proof to terminate my lease and get my full deposit reimbursed.

2 months have gone and 1 week before I am leaving I receive a letter from the representatives who was sent by the landlord saying that he is not reimbursing my deposit since I broke the lease after 6 months.

I went to talk to his representatives and recorded the conversation. They confirmed that they verbally agreed with me that I didn't need to find anyone, and that I was going t be returned the full amount if the apartment was in good condition, and they also told me that they checked the contract with their lawyers and that the client they represent is acting illegally, and is not honouring our agreement and that he just changed his mind in the last moment.

I researched and found that a verbal agreement applies as a contract in Thailand.

I made my brother, lawyer in Europe, to send another letter to the landlord based in Tahiti requesting to return the full deposit within 48 hours, or I would call the local authorities. 36 hours have passed and he has replied that he is not going to return my deposit. His representatives are the ones who are currently retaining my deposit as for the landlord request.

I don't know what else can I do know. I am leaving the country in 6 days, from what I understand a French citizen can't own a condo in Thailand and I suspect that his representatives, the managing company of the building are the company leasing or owning the other 51%?

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thank you so much.

[ukrules]

You will never see that rent again, all you can do is make trouble for them.

Make sure to file a report before you leave stating that you believe the building is illegally owned and operated by a foreigner using Thai nominee shareholders.

[manarak]

OP, once you have left Thailand and if you don't plan to return soon, nothing keeps you from naming & shaming

Sadly, there is not enough money involved to start a serious recovery procedure.

[aTomsLife]

Hi, OP.

The representative appears to be misrepresenting the landlord, her boss. While I understand all you've said pertaining to a verbal contract, remember a written contract is binding too.

One of the reasons landlords collect deposits is to have a cushion in case the tenant breaks the lease. In the west he would be entitled to the two months, and could also sue you for the remaining rent. Of course Thailand is not the west, but that is a two way street. The rep clearly wasn't speaking in the best interests of her boss, and it turns out she misled you.

Don't get caught up about the validity of verbal contracts while simultaneously violating the written contract you entered into. It's hypocritical. Just be happy this isn't the west and there's really no way for them to collect the rent you owe on the remaining months of your lease.

Good luck to you.

[Magudo]

Hi aTomsLife,

Thank you for the response. The representative, is not a girl working for him, the representative is actually the company who built and owns the whole building, and I am guessing the company owning 51% of my landlord's condo since he's not Thai.

In the West (aka France), the law says that you can leave a furnished apartment in case of relocation warning your landlord one month in advance with a letter ( avec accuse de reception). Of course I understand that this is Thailand, but what pisses me off is that I offered to find someone to take over and they told me that it wasn't necessary, that they also told me yesterday that my landlord agreed that he would return the 2 months deposit that I shouldn't worry (recorded with the iphone), and that apparently all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building (aka the managing company) only a week before I leave.

I am still at his place right now, and I am not leaving until Friday, I am trying to find a gentle solution.

If he had thought this carefully he should realized that 2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way. I won't leave no stone unturned.

[aTomsLife]

Hi aTomsLife,

Thank you for the response. The representative, is not a girl working for him, the representative is actually the company who built and owns the whole building, and I am guessing the company owning 51% of my landlord's condo since he's not Thai.

In the West (aka France), the law says that you can leave a furnished apartment in case of relocation warning your landlord one month in advance with a letter ( avec accuse de reception). Of course I understand that this is Thailand, but what pisses me off is that I offered to find someone to take over and they told me that it wasn't necessary, that they also told me yesterday that my landlord agreed that he would return the 2 months deposit that I shouldn't worry (recorded with the iphone), and that apparently all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building (aka the managing company) only a week before I leave.

I am still at his place right now, and I am not leaving until Friday, I am trying to find a gentle solution.

If he had thought this carefully he should realized that 2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way. I won't leave no stone unturned.

I’m going to try and break this down for you one more time. Not to give you a hard time, but to give you peace of mind.

The landlord is entitled to the deposit, otherwise what’s the point of collecting it, if not to cushion himself in the event of a premature lease termination?

You say the rep is not a girl working for him but the company. My point is that the rep you spoke to isn’t the person who makes the final decision.

“all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building" Your meaning here isn’t clear. The landlord is the owner of your unit, so whose advice is he disregarding? It’s no one else’s business but his.

I can only add one more thing: if you’re dealing with a Thai and she misspoke, s/he won’t admit it now, because it’s a loss of face. I’m not pretending to be a mind reader, but consider the culture you’re operating in. I’ve gone to my bank after losing my ATM card only to be told that I had to go to the branch I opened the account with. Meanwhile, on the phone, the corporate offices state that that simply isn’t true. But once the Thai rep said otherwise, I knew it would be a loss of face for her to admit otherwise.

Don’t lose sleep over it, feeling cheated. You’re the one violating the terms of the contract.

"2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way." I disagree: if he gains the reputation for letting people break leases without repercussion, he's going to lose a lot more in the future.

[WhamBam]

I have to admit, I agree with break the lease & lose the deposit. The landlord (or agents) must now find a new tenant and as already said that deposit is a buffer against breaking the lease as well as possible damage and utility bills.

The rules in Thailand are different to those in France itself.

It seems pointless chasing the deposit too.

Seems to me to be a case of live and learn.

[Kabula]

Move on and forget about it.

If you make trouble, it may come back to haunt you.

There are bigger things going on in this world presently to be more concerned about.

[KittenKong]

The OP apparently did the right thing by informing the agent of what he was about to do and getting verbal confirmation from them that this was all in order and would not affect his deposit. You cant really act in better faith than that.

I would be inclined to contact the Tourist Court.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/709676-bangkok-tourist-court-opens-15-more-to-follow

Pointing out to the owner that the affair is about to go to court may encourage him to be more reasonable.

[daveAustin]

You can see where the op is coming from, however, as he offered to find another tenant. Having said that, as a landlord it is a major pain when tenants want to break leases. But I urge you to further this simply because the owner is a froggy lol.

Btw, farangs can own a condo unit outright as long as the overall building is at least 51% Thai-owned.

[crazygreg44]

ukrules has a very strong card in backhand, I suggest you write ( AFTER having left Thailand) a small "red flag" about exactly this discrepancy to your landlord, and politely ask for the deposit to be refunded.

and please let us know how this came home . . . .

[crazygreg44]

You can see where the op is coming from, however, as he offered to find another tenant. Having said that, as a landlord it is a major pain when tenants want to break leases. But I urge you to further this simply because the owner is a froggy lol.

Btw, farangs can own a condo unit outright as long as the overall building is at least 51% Thai-owned.

has absolutely nothing to do with what ukrules is suggesting

[Magudo]

Hi aTomsLife,

Thank you for the response. The representative, is not a girl working for him, the representative is actually the company who built and owns the whole building, and I am guessing the company owning 51% of my landlord's condo since he's not Thai.

In the West (aka France), the law says that you can leave a furnished apartment in case of relocation warning your landlord one month in advance with a letter ( avec accuse de reception). Of course I understand that this is Thailand, but what pisses me off is that I offered to find someone to take over and they told me that it wasn't necessary, that they also told me yesterday that my landlord agreed that he would return the 2 months deposit that I shouldn't worry (recorded with the iphone), and that apparently all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building (aka the managing company) only a week before I leave.

I am still at his place right now, and I am not leaving until Friday, I am trying to find a gentle solution.

If he had thought this carefully he should realized that 2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way. I won't leave no stone unturned.

I’m going to try and break this down for you one more time. Not to give you a hard time, but to give you peace of mind.

The landlord is entitled to the deposit, otherwise what’s the point of collecting it, if not to cushion himself in the event of a premature lease termination?

You say the rep is not a girl working for him but the company. My point is that the rep you spoke to isn’t the person who makes the final decision.

“all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building" Your meaning here isn’t clear. The landlord is the owner of your unit, so whose advice is he disregarding? It’s no one else’s business but his.

I can only add one more thing: if you’re dealing with a Thai and she misspoke, s/he won’t admit it now, because it’s a loss of face. I’m not pretending to be a mind reader, but consider the culture you’re operating in. I’ve gone to my bank after losing my ATM card only to be told that I had to go to the branch I opened the account with. Meanwhile, on the phone, the corporate offices state that that simply isn’t true. But once the Thai rep said otherwise, I knew it would be a loss of face for her to admit otherwise.

Don’t lose sleep over it, feeling cheated. You’re the one violating the terms of the contract.

"2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way." I disagree: if he gains the reputation for letting people break leases without repercussion, he's going to lose a lot more in the future.

I have only talked to French people, the company representing him, also owners of the building, are as well French.

I am just trying to figure out how this all works, because this company is telling me I am right and he's wrong, and to keep on pushing him. And also they told me that they are the ones witholding the deposit right now.

But I am wondering if they own 51% of this condo, and they are just trying to pass the hot potato to the guy who's in Tahiti so I don't cause them much trouble before I leave.

Again, I would have understood that they told me that under the contract signed I needed to find someone else, or getting to some kind of agreement... but telling me during 2 months you will get your money back, and 5 days before I leave, you won't get a dime, I just see it unfair, because I could have even pushed my own company to give me some compensation.

So for the time being I would like to understand if the people here known as representative are actually the real owners of the condo and really the ones that I should be pushing, and not a guy 3000 miles away.

Thanks

[Headgame]

Oral contracts may be enforceable in TH but amendments to written contracts must be in writing to be enforceable.

[Soutpeel]

Hi aTomsLife,

Thank you for the response. The representative, is not a girl working for him, the representative is actually the company who built and owns the whole building, and I am guessing the company owning 51% of my landlord's condo since he's not Thai.

In the West (aka France), the law says that you can leave a furnished apartment in case of relocation warning your landlord one month in advance with a letter ( avec accuse de reception). Of course I understand that this is Thailand, but what pisses me off is that I offered to find someone to take over and they told me that it wasn't necessary, that they also told me yesterday that my landlord agreed that he would return the 2 months deposit that I shouldn't worry (recorded with the iphone), and that apparently all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building (aka the managing company) only a week before I leave.

I am still at his place right now, and I am not leaving until Friday, I am trying to find a gentle solution.

If he had thought this carefully he should realized that 2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way. I won't leave no stone unturned.

I’m going to try and break this down for you one more time. Not to give you a hard time, but to give you peace of mind.

The landlord is entitled to the deposit, otherwise what’s the point of collecting it, if not to cushion himself in the event of a premature lease termination?

You say the rep is not a girl working for him but the company. My point is that the rep you spoke to isn’t the person who makes the final decision.

“all the sudden he decided to change his mind against the advice of the owners of the building" Your meaning here isn’t clear. The landlord is the owner of your unit, so whose advice is he disregarding? It’s no one else’s business but his.

I can only add one more thing: if you’re dealing with a Thai and she misspoke, s/he won’t admit it now, because it’s a loss of face. I’m not pretending to be a mind reader, but consider the culture you’re operating in. I’ve gone to my bank after losing my ATM card only to be told that I had to go to the branch I opened the account with. Meanwhile, on the phone, the corporate offices state that that simply isn’t true. But once the Thai rep said otherwise, I knew it would be a loss of face for her to admit otherwise.

Don’t lose sleep over it, feeling cheated. You’re the one violating the terms of the contract.

"2 months rent is much less than what he's going to lose if he continues this way." I disagree: if he gains the reputation for letting people break leases without repercussion, he's going to lose a lot more in the future.

I have only talked to French people, the company representing him, also owners of the building, are as well French.

I am just trying to figure out how this all works, because this company is telling me I am right and he's wrong, and to keep on pushing him. And also they told me that they are the ones witholding the deposit right now.

But I am wondering if they own 51% of this condo, and they are just trying to pass the hot potato to the guy who's in Tahiti so I don't cause them much trouble before I leave.

Again, I would have understood that they told me that under the contract signed I needed to find someone else, or getting to some kind of agreement... but telling me during 2 months you will get your money back, and 5 days before I leave, you won't get a dime, I just see it unfair, because I could have even pushed my own company to give me some compensation.

So for the time being I would like to understand if the people here known as representative are actually the real owners of the condo and really the ones that I should be pushing, and not a guy 3000 miles away.

Thanks

in the first instance you are in breach of the contract you signed, therefore the owner is entitled to withhold the deposit, irrespective of the notice period given, unless this condition is specifically detailed in the contract, people breaking their contracts is one of the reasons security deposits are asked for, what gets said verbally by the agent is somewhat irrelevant and yes an owner is allowed to change their mind, nothing illegal about that.

because I could have even pushed my own company to give me some compensation

Why is this "could" you still can, you talk to your company, tell them your not getting your deposit back and they should front this cost, as the direct reason the contract has been broken is because they have transferred you.

[i claudius]

May I add my little bit after 23 years experience in Thailand. Move on. Forget what the girl said your flogging a dead horse

Edited October 4, 2014 by i claudius

[Magudo]

Yup, well.

But they also replied by e-mail that it was ok.

Nevermind. I'll fight until I leave to see if I can get anything.

Thank you all for your answers.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Magudo

[KittenKong]

I'll fight until I leave to see if I can get anything.

The Tourist Court I mentioned above is specifically designed to settle things quickly. I suggest you look into it.

[Will2011]

Unless mentioned, all residential lease agreements have a one year duration term.

[NanLaew]

In the meantime, locate about half a dozen ladyboys and move them in 24-hours before you leave; the Beach Road ones are best. Tell them that you just want someone to look after the place 'while you're away' and that they should feel free to redecorate as they see appropriate and they can keep pets there too. That will ensure that your retained deposit won't earn much interest for the owner/landlord/tosspot in Tahiti.

[robanywhere]

A written contract would have priority over an oral agreement, if they conflict. Next time include a diplomatic clause for early termination in case if job transfer (I always do). Be glad the landlord is not asking for the remaining year's rent too, as he might rightly be entitled to.

Sent from my GT-I8552 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[OnMyWay2]

The problem is that you probably got a discounted rent for signing long term. Now they have to go through the hassle and paperwork of setting up a new tenant.

Im saying this as a landlord this is what i would be thinking, you could be trying to scan them to get a lower rate.