Rights group arranges lawyers for Myanmar men

[Dogmatix]

Exactly. David and Hannah were likely having sex (as suspects even said). They probably had NO idea what hit them. It was so fast they had NO chance to even react. Or you bet your ass those little burmese would have marks on them.

With your infinite wisdom could you please explain to me two things - 1) Motive, 2) How the two killed David. Give me your reconstruction of how these two managed to take him down and keep the girl quiet at the same time. Thanks. These two/three were dna tested in the following days. How come they did not have any bruises/cuts from a fatal encounter with a 24 yr 1.90m man. Hmmm

How do you know they do not have bruises/cuts on their bodies ? Have you seen them without a shirt on ? And they used a weapon to kill the victims with, David and Hannah hadno chance to defend themselves. They were killed defenseless and naked so how could they do anything to stop it.

I have a background in forensics. I studied it and also worked in a medical examiners office. But I am by no means an expert. But with my experience this is the likely scenario.

Killers sneak up on David and Hannah. (Remember David and Hannah were at bars the whole night before going to the beach though I can't confirm they were drunk because I didn't see their toxicology report). David is the first to be hit in the back of the head. He is their biggest threat and easiest target. With a powerful and swift blow(s). It wouldn't take a pro baseball player to knock someone out with that hoe. Knocked unconscious. As far as how Hannah didn't scream many scenarios could have happened after that. but I didn't see signs of defensive wounds on her arms (however I did not see any photos from the medical examiners office either to confirm this).

So most likely scenarios are.

1. David is hit so hard that his head is thrashed into Hannahs (if they were in the missionary position) and either knocks her out or stuns her. Before she has the chance to come to. The other(s) silence her by covering her mouth. (unlikely as she would have had time to scream or fight)

2. David gets hit once or twice then the weapon is immediately turned on Hannah before she has a chance to scream. (which seems more likely with the suspects size not wanting to take the chance that David can get up and defend himself) (most likely) It wouldn't take long to get a couple of powerful blows to the head without Hannah realizing what's going on or being so shocked she's stunned. Then hitting her enough to knock her out or stun her to where she can't fight back.

I'm saying this because there's no way one person could have dragged david out to the water alone. I don't think one of those little guys could have held hannah down alone unless she was so inebriated she would almost be unconscious. It would take at least two guys to pull David out into the water. So Hannah was either unconscious already (likely) or being held down and her mouth covered (I don't think that's likely though). SO they could hit him more and/or drag him into the water. There is a possibility there was a third person who was helping them but it doesn't seem like there is evidence as of now.

I believe Hannah was unconscious (or dead ) when the subsequent sexual assaults occurred. Again, I didn't see any defensive wounds or any marks consistent with holding her down. The suspects statements also verify they took turns with her and shared a cigarette. Not easy to smoke a cigarette with no hands if you're trying to fight someone to hold them down. After she was sexually assaulted, she was likely finished off with the hoe. It looks like the sharp end of the hoe! To kill her so as not to be able to identify the killers.

It's also possible that she was so shocked and she was too scared to scream. but I don't think this is likely. I think she would have had a good chance to fight off one guy or scream knowing how close she was to the resort.

Unfortunately motive is very primitive. Rape. The suspects admit they were drinking for several hours. Who knows what else they were on. However they were at the beach playing for many hours (not rare for Thai's) but they did this after a shift at their job. They had a LOT of energy. Maybe they took yaba? Not being of sound mind and seeing people have sex sparked some kind of primitive response to go and get it. Remember being drunk and making bad decisions? This was a REALLY bad non pre-meditated decision. It was opportunistic. They found some weapons and went and got it.

I don't think this is the first time, or would have been, the last time something similar (but not exact) has happened with these guys. Rape in Thailand or SE asia seems like it's almost an accepted part of their culture (watch Thai soaps - DISGUSTING AND AWFUL).

Again if there were any marks on the suspects, I didn't see any. But David likely didn't fight at all. Unfortunately I think is the same for Hannah. They swabbed about 2000 people for DNA but they only claim to have actually tested 200. Which was smart because that was their only lead at the time. (They should have swabbed everyone before leaving the island though!).

The other wounds from Davids face and chest which some claim to be by a knife is not true. All but one looks like post mortem wounds. It could have been that when David was dragged into the water, he hit the rocks and resulted in puncture wounds. It doesn't look like it was from a knife. There are also scrapes (consistent with a rock or dragging near the wounds too) Look at the photos closely. You can see it. Another CSI LA guy claims it the knife punctured his chest. If you look at the crime scene photos from liveleak you can see it's not very deep. DEEP but not knife deep. It's just from the photo angle you can't see it was just under the skin. Not a stab wound. If the waves or tide was going in or out (I didn't check the tide schedule) he would have been easily thrown against the rocks he was so close to. The wound on his chin is the only one that looks like he was alive.

I'm not willing to say this is exactly how it happened but I would bet it's close.

A very very tragic end to some young and innocent tourists lives. I feel bad for their friends and family. I hope they can someday heal from this and share their experience with others to help avoid these tragedy's.

I concede you have an imaginative mind. A rape motive is not anger, so I don't buy-in to your analysis. You think these young boys are going to kill two people so they can rape the female? And that it's premeditated? Cold, calculating ruthlessness? I think with your forensic background you've been watching too much TV crime fiction.

The most likely scenario relates to McAnna's account. The catalyst would be Hannah rejecting an overture and the man taking offence. Rejection leads to loss of face and anger. The rape was 'incidental' to the need to assert power over his victim. Classic raison d'etre.

If you read the factual accounts of previous RTP cover-ups when influential families are involved you might understand why posters are sceptical that this case is different. If these Burmese were involved, the locals would have grassed them straight away. The fact that the head of a national NGO (a Thai lady) supports the view that they are innocent, speaks far more volumes than either of our speculations.

I think you've outlined the only way that two very small guys could have accomplished this without help. but it would have required a lot of daring and luck for two drunk midgets to be able to knock out both David and Hannah with one blow, so that they could finish off David and drag him into the sea leaving Hannah stunned, although taking the risk that she might have come to and escaped. There would have been a big risk in this plan that they would have failed to incapacitate David with one blow or that Hannah could have run away. I rather doubt they would have taken the risk of letting Hannah get away and perhaps they knocked out David first and brutally killed Hannah immediately before finishing off David and dragging him to the sea to make sure she would not escape. The horrible crime photographs suggest that he poor girl could easily have been raped after she was murdered which would have been the more logical sequence for these two small guys. However, as another poster pointed out, their confessions indicate that they killed David first, then raped Hannah, then murdered her. That leaves only your scenario that they managed to knock Hannah out simultaneously or soon after knocking out David and took the risk of leaving her stunned while both of them worked on David.

Possible but it seems much more likely there were more than two attackers which may or may not have included the two arrested Burmese. Another issue is that David's wounds look too neat and uniform to have been inflicted by roacks which usually abrade a lot of skin when you hit them. The confessions seem to suggest they were made with the hoe which seems inconsistent with the wounds and the lack of David's DNA on the hoe.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Dogmatix

[JohnThailandJohn]

Did the RTP officially confirm that the DNA of the Burmese guys matched the DNA found inside Hannah, i.e. from semen.

I can't find anything online, just that it matches DNA found at the crime scene (I've also read it matched DNA found on a cigarette and that it matched a blonde hair found either in Hannah's hand or on a phone, but not sure if that's speculation or official info).

It has been reported they stated it matched the DNA found in the victim. It was also stated early on the cigarette DNA matched that found in the victim.

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Deli]

Can anyone imagine what will be going on IF it comes out that most of the people interested have been right and the DNA results have been faked ?

[denkiblue555]

After a long investigation from a trust source these members are

on the payroll of the authorities:

JohnThailandJohn,soumanioco,Hisseheo,SICHONSTEVE,balo,Tanlic

No surprise there but, can you substantiate the allegations??

To be fair to these posters, what you have said is just hearsay and as this is an anonymous forum I am surprised

you are able to say that with conviction.

Their posts are indeed, xenophobic and blatantly racist but, that is their right as far as Im concerned, I can ignore them.

Why and how did you investigate?

I assume the IP addresses have been checked - I guess JohnThailandJohn will be able to elaborate?

really embarrassing the level that people will take their paranoia and conspiracy theories. Think there is going to be a lot of new accounts opening up on TV once the emotions have calm down and some come back to reality.

But, you do deny the allegation yeah.....nonsense surely?

And I don't think it is paranoid at all. Like you said, many 'new accounts' are opened up here on TV when it suits the users. I think it is good to know when certain accounts have certain agendas - as has be shown in the past here where the accounts have been deleted.

[DennisF]

as I said in another post if it was David's phone then whose phone was pictured on the crime scene next to david's shorts ?

if you ask John so are I sure it's Davids second phone

Unfair.

I will agree that these posters are a complete pain in the ar*e as they are so vulgarly biased towards any possible scenario other than the ones they believe.

However, we have many farang posters with the same character and none of them have been accused of working for the media or other 'interested parties'

To rally on these people without coming up with facts and evidence is doing exactly the same as the BiB are accused of.

However distasteful we may find their views ( and I do) I respect their right to have them.

I ignore their posts, works for me.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Can anyone imagine what will be going on IF it comes out that most of the people interested have been right and the DNA results have been faked ?

If in that hugely unlikely event then all hell would break lose within the police and government.

Unless the police plan on making these two suspects bodies disappear along with their family members then there is no way they faked the DNA as it is the only way to get rid of their DNA from being tested in the future.

[DennisF]

as I said in another post if it was David's phone then whose phone was pictured on the crime scene next to david's shorts ?

if you ask John so are I sure it's Davids second phone

Unfair.

I will agree that these posters are a complete pain in the ar*e as they are so vulgarly biased towards any possible scenario other than the ones they believe.

However, we have many farang posters with the same character and none of them have been accused of working for the media or other 'interested parties'

To rally on these people without coming up with facts and evidence is doing exactly the same as the BiB are accused of.

However distasteful we may find their views ( and I do) I respect their right to have them.

I ignore their posts, works for me.

[stephen terry]

Since scenarios are being trotted out willy nilly, here's mine:

David and Hanna in bar, but not always sitting together. Thai slickster asks her 'that your fren?' She says 'yes.' then they get in to the bar conversation which has been repeated 5 million times in Thailand, and she laughs as says, "oh, I see, fren means boyfriend, not just friend. In that case, no he's not my boyfriend."

Thai guy is determined to go all the way, and may have even bragged to one or more of his buddies about it. That would explain, when he got rebuffed later, why he went ballistically savage.

Fastforward to murder scene. The two farang were not necessarily making love. They may not even have been making out. Finding an unused condom on a party beach is not unusual. It could readily have already been there.

Thai guy(s) walk with them or catches up with them. All parties are still in a comeraderie joking mood (still drunk). Thai guy takes her aside (every guy on the prowl knows one of the first thing to try to do when seducing a girl is to get her physically away from her b.f. or protector). Thai guy's friend distracts David. Thai guy 1 puts the moves on Hanna. She resists (and probably calls out). David notices and tries to extract her (btw, Sean said David was 'a true hero and tried to save Hannah'). Actually Sean was likely nearby also (or came to see what the commotion was about), as evidenced by him suffering a wound on his arm which was identical to the multiple wounds suffered by David.

As David tried to extract Hanna from the clutches of the Thai, he's confronted by Thai #2 who is left handed and has a punch knife (which explains David's peculiar multiple wounds on the right side of his body). Those wounds were not caused by a hoe, and even the cops corroborated that early in their investigation, though they changed their story when the Burmese scapegoats were micro-managed in the reenactment.

David was killed while Hannah was being held (probably her mouth covered) by Thai #1. When Hannah still didn't submit, she was raped by both Thai men and then bludgeoned with the back end of the hoe.

Yes, that's exactly my take on what actually happened. I'm sure if an uncontaminated independent DNA test is demanded by the legal team representing the B2 it would prove it one way or the other. Unfortunately I don't think that wouldn't be permitted, just like the refusal of the rich family to provide DNA.

[Anthony5]

I think you've outlined the only way that two very small guys could have accomplished this without help. but it would have required a lot of daring and luck for two drunk midgets to be able to knock out both David and Hannah with one blow, so that they could finish off David and drag him into the sea leaving Hannah stunned, although taking the risk that she might have come to and escaped. There would have been a big risk in this plan that they would have failed to incapacitate David with one blow or that Hannah could have run away. I rather doubt they would have taken the risk of letting Hannah get away and perhaps they knocked out David first and brutally killed Hannah immediately before finishing off David and dragging him to the sea to make sure she would not escape. The horrible crime photographs suggest that he poor girl could easily have been raped after she was murdered which would have been the more logical sequence for these two small guys. However, as another poster pointed out, their confessions indicate that they killed David first, then raped Hannah, then murdered her. That leaves only your scenario that they managed to knock Hannah out simultaneously or soon after knocking out David and took the risk of leaving her stunned while both of them worked on David.

Possible but it seems much more likely there were more than two attackers which may or may not have included the two arrested Burmese. Another issue is that David's wounds look too neat and uniform to have been inflicted by roacks which usually abrade a lot of skin when you hit them. The confessions seem to suggest they were made with the hoe which seems inconsistent with the wounds and the lack of David's DNA on the hoe.

I edited out the post you quoted to, since however stephen terry claim to be mentally healthy he isn't able to properly quote a post, and all credit for that post goes to Yougivemebaby.

I'm with you that the most likely scenario is that there are more than 2 people involved in the killings and rapings.

[Dogmatix]

Since scenarios are being trotted out willy nilly, here's mine:

David and Hanna in bar, but not always sitting together. Thai slickster asks her 'that your fren?' She says 'yes.' then they get in to the bar conversation which has been repeated 5 million times in Thailand, and she laughs as says, "oh, I see, fren means boyfriend, not just friend. In that case, no he's not my boyfriend."

Thai guy is determined to go all the way, and may have even bragged to one or more of his buddies about it. That would explain, when he got rebuffed later, why he went ballistically savage.

Fastforward to murder scene. The two farang were not necessarily making love. They may not even have been making out. Finding an unused condom on a party beach is not unusual. It could readily have already been there.

Thai guy(s) walk with them or catches up with them. All parties are still in a comeraderie joking mood (still drunk). Thai guy takes her aside (every guy on the prowl knows one of the first thing to try to do when seducing a girl is to get her physically away from her b.f. or protector). Thai guy's friend distracts David. Thai guy 1 puts the moves on Hanna. She resists (and probably calls out). David notices and tries to extract her (btw, Sean said David was 'a true hero and tried to save Hannah'). Actually Sean was likely nearby also (or came to see what the commotion was about), as evidenced by him suffering a wound on his arm which was identical to the multiple wounds suffered by David.

As David tried to extract Hanna from the clutches of the Thai, he's confronted by Thai #2 who is left handed and has a punch knife (which explains David's peculiar multiple wounds on the right side of his body). Those wounds were not caused by a hoe, and even the cops corroborated that early in their investigation, though they changed their story when the Burmese scapegoats were micro-managed in the reenactment.

David was killed while Hannah was being held (probably her mouth covered) by Thai #1. When Hannah still didn't submit, she was raped by both Thai men and then bludgeoned with the back end of the hoe.

I think your rough scenario is quite plausible but I would suggest also considering the presence of Thai#3 and Thai#4++. Normally they operate in packs. That would have made it easier to subdue Hannah very tightly. A dog pack might even have been able to hold down both with or without guns to their heads and raped Hannah before murdering both.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Since scenarios are being trotted out willy nilly, here's mine:

David and Hanna in bar, but not always sitting together. Thai slickster asks her 'that your fren?' She says 'yes.' then they get in to the bar conversation which has been repeated 5 million times in Thailand, and she laughs as says, "oh, I see, fren means boyfriend, not just friend. In that case, no he's not my boyfriend."

Thai guy is determined to go all the way, and may have even bragged to one or more of his buddies about it. That would explain, when he got rebuffed later, why he went ballistically savage.

Fastforward to murder scene. The two farang were not necessarily making love. They may not even have been making out. Finding an unused condom on a party beach is not unusual. It could readily have already been there.

Thai guy(s) walk with them or catches up with them. All parties are still in a comeraderie joking mood (still drunk). Thai guy takes her aside (every guy on the prowl knows one of the first thing to try to do when seducing a girl is to get her physically away from her b.f. or protector). Thai guy's friend distracts David. Thai guy 1 puts the moves on Hanna. She resists (and probably calls out). David notices and tries to extract her (btw, Sean said David was 'a true hero and tried to save Hannah'). Actually Sean was likely nearby also (or came to see what the commotion was about), as evidenced by him suffering a wound on his arm which was identical to the multiple wounds suffered by David.

As David tried to extract Hanna from the clutches of the Thai, he's confronted by Thai #2 who is left handed and has a punch knife (which explains David's peculiar multiple wounds on the right side of his body). Those wounds were not caused by a hoe, and even the cops corroborated that early in their investigation, though they changed their story when the Burmese scapegoats were micro-managed in the reenactment.

David was killed while Hannah was being held (probably her mouth covered) by Thai #1. When Hannah still didn't submit, she was raped by both Thai men and then bludgeoned with the back end of the hoe.

Yes, that's exactly my take on what actually happened. I'm sure if an uncontaminated independent DNA test is demanded by the legal team representing the B2 it would prove it one way or the other. Unfortunately I don't think that wouldn't be permitted, just like the refusal of the rich family to provide DNA.

And this of course all makes sense because nobody in the bar, including their friends have stated anything like this happened and because it is the two suspects in custody who confessed and whose DNA matched.

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Somtamnication]

Can't wait for Andy Hall to be charged with defamation. You gotta love this country!

[denkiblue555]

It also seems strange, as mentioned on another thread, that Police originally stated that they were looking for a suspect over 170cm tall?

[JohnThailandJohn]

I don't get your point.

All I am for is the truth and if an outsider could possibly confirm what the police claim, I think we would all be for it - and I would welcome it.

I don't believe the official story due to the massive number of holes in what the police claim.

I don't know what I could possibly have to hide other than the fact that this event has affected me enormously, and I hope for the families of the victims that justice is served.

I would have no hesitation being the first to admit I was wrong (especially to JTJ) - I would be proud to lose face here. I am just fearing that this event will end like so many have during my time in Thailand. It is just too hard for me to ignore what the police have done before in 'tourist' related situations as well.

I respect your post and if you don't mind me asking or your sharing ... why has this affected you enormously?

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[yougivemebaby]

okay I'll be the first to say it. In respect for David and Hannah's family.

I can't believe how much people are claiming these Burmese are innocent with all the evidence piled up against them. People's logic? They are too small, don't look like a rapist or cold blooded murderers?!?!

The biggest mistake the police made was following half drunken or inebriated claims of people with NO forensics background. once the police (probably with help) followed their cigarette lead, they found the culprits quickly! 99.9% of every single rumor online was JUST that. Zero evidence backing it up. No actual smoking gun. Shocking people with crime scene photos doesn't prove anything. Showing people a phone that may have been turned into police after the murders prove nothing. Where is the smoking gun? A police report.? How do you know that wasn't the officers phone?

The Burmese ran off after the police

Spotted them on the beach? Why? They were scared to be deported ? The police know almost all Burmese workers are illegal. Why would the pick out just one innocent group ?

They were tortured with boiling water ?? Where is the smoking gun?? JUST another rumor. I didn't see any Burmese with burn marks. How did they know they were tortured ? Did they call and tell them? I doubt it.

One shared cigarette does not mean rape or murder. it means contact with the victim. One cigarette does not exclude unidentified others who may have also been there.

Actually forensics showing a wound made by a knife as opposed to the hoe that was reported as the murder weapon leaving a murder weapon missing proves..er..that they are missing one of the murder weapons and have falsely reported what kind of weapon was used perhaps.

The distinctive orange/pink phone with dark purple case belonging to hannah is available to view in tv forum on various pages, as well as viewable in various past photos of hannah that have been published online by newspapers and forums. This same very distinctive phone was clearly visible on a policemans desk the day after the murders during a thai news youtube video. An as yet unsubstantiated post from a friend of hannah's confirms the phone was given to the police on request the day after the murders.

Have you not been keeping abreast of the ongoing case?

The torture was reported formally to an NGO by Burmese diplomats. It appeared ten Burmese people were taken in and three were allegedly tortured. Hence this thread........

Sorry I didn't get a chance to finish before I hit reply.

okay I'll be the first to say it. In respect for David and Hannah's family.

I can't believe how much people are claiming these Burmese are innocent with all the evidence piled up against them. People's logic? They are too small, don't look like a rapist or cold blooded murderers?!?!

The biggest mistake the police made was following half drunken or inebriated claims of people with NO forensics background. once the police (probably with help) followed their cigarette lead, they found the culprits quickly! 99.9% of every single rumor online was JUST that. Zero evidence backing it up. No actual smoking gun. Shocking people with crime scene photos doesn't prove anything. Showing people a phone that may have been turned into police after the murders prove nothing. Where is the smoking gun? A police report.? How do you know that wasn't the officers phone?

The Burmese ran off after the police

Spotted them on the beach? Why? They were scared to be deported ? The police know almost all Burmese workers are illegal. Why would the pick out just one innocent group ?

They were tortured with boiling water ?? Where is the smoking gun?? JUST another rumor. I didn't see any Burmese with burn marks. How did they know they were tortured ? Did they call and tell them? I doubt it.

Continued.....

Other claims propose (without any evidence) that the hoe was not the primary weapon. (LOL) Independent CSIs again with no forensics background think a tiny knife could have made these skull wounds. if you look closely at the skull fractures you will see it's impossible these were done with a sharp object. Look up (google) knife wounds to the skull. You will see there are no outlying marks associated with stabs to the skull. David does have wounds consistent with a blunt CURVED object. There are marks along his forehead associated to the massive blow to his skull. A knife can not make a curved semi circle! If they used the punch knife the wound would not be so wide either. ! Most knife wounds to the skull get stuck in the skull and need to be surgically removed. Look back at the crime scene photos and you can see what I am talking about. (Yes I have a background in forensics.)

Just because a phone looks similar on YouTube or Facebook doesn't mean some one has a similar phone or the police didn't put it on their reports. Where is this 'friend ' that said she had Hannah's phone ? Don't know?

Because it's hearsay. doesn't mean anything as far as evidence goes. Just a coincidence or more likely a troll.

The cigarette found near the scene with the alleged Burmese killers has their DNA on it which proves they were at the scene.

Them purchasing the same cigarettes earlier is further damning evidence.

I'm not saying there aren't holes or questions in the investigation but there are a LOT more holes in all these hearsay only accusations and people making these claims have no background with forensics. It would take an elaborate plan (from the very beginning of the investigation) to plant semen in the victim of the accused Burmese suspects.

I believe the Burmese will be properly represented in court and given every chance to prove their innocence. (Doubt it). So for the family's sake. Please let it rest with all these rumors. NONE of them are proven and only slowing the family's healing process.

Thanks

Except that in all the first weeks, in fact right up until the Burmese came along. The police stated the hoe had no DNA of David and was not the weapon used on him. The police said the hoe was only used on Hanna. Everybody including the police seem to forget this. The hoe would have david DNA. Unless you think they stopped to wash it before attacking Hannah. Now the police are out enacting the murder on david with a hoe. That was a quick turnaround.

It can be tricky to find two peoples DNA on the same murder weapon. Especially since David only got hit a few times compared to Hannah being bludgeoned several times. How can you distinct one drop of blood from another without testing thousands of blood splatter droplets. ? The mess they made with Hannah with all her brain matter, bones, skin, and blood would be like looking for a spec of (David's matter) dust in a haystack. There wasn't much of David's matter that was available to cross for DNA. Just a small amount of bone from what it appeared.

However if you look at the crime scene photos. The blunt curved end of the hoe matches his head wounds perfectly. There's a slight semi circular curve to his wounds which are consistent with the tip of or blunt edge of the hoe. You made a good observation though. Thanks for sharing

[mrtoad]

JTJ , are you BIB?

[Number 3]

You do realize the word for his, him, she, her, they can all be the same in Thai,don't you? People made speculations but very clear police never said the phone was hers and regardless people never considered she might have two as do many visitors ... this was just more unsubstantiated fodder for the conspiracy folks stated as fact that never was ... as now appears to be confirmed.

They used her name.. Explicitly.

Now they are changing the story... Again..

Red herrings consistently.

Learn to recognise them now -before it all unravels again.

[Dogmatix]

I'm hopping off the CSI LA bandwagon and admit to being a part of the frenzy for a while.

Yougivemebaby has stated pretty much what my instincts told me the very first time I read the story of the murders.

How CSI LA can ask, "why David has no cloths on?" and speculate that that the killers had forensics knowledge is sounding desperate.

When people have sex, they often get their clothes off- pretty simple. The condom found at the scene was most likely David's and the lack of DNA on the inside means his skin cells weren't traced/picked up in the testing process. Hannah's were able to be picked up, presumably there were more of them.

The phones- in my mind, that's been resolved.

I now believe that even Sean McAnna doesn't even know whether he was coming or going that night due whatever substances he indulges in. He listened to rumours, blatantly spread them and got himself offside with the locals.

The wounds on David still baffle me. Of course the hoe's sharp corners could inflict them but I would have thought the easiest way to swing a hoe down on someone would be with the leading edge first - I'd expect the wounds to be broader.

So these are just my thoughts. I'm still keeping an open mind and still have some things I'd like to see clarified. I encourage others to keep the questioning going if you feel something isn't right.

I think we should give CSI LA a break. His mind may be working overtime on some aspects of this case but give him credit for trying to examine all possible angles and being a Thai who is extremely concerned about a possible miscarriage of justice in his country and willing to post it all online. Even if he is overseas, there must be plenty of powerful Thais who would like to unmask him and make reprisals against him and his family.

If he makes a tiny spelling mistake in an English word, e.g. clothes, that is not in for a dig. How good is your Thai spelling?

If you are in here, keep up the good work CSI LA. Even if you are wrong and the police are right, your work might add pressure on the police to tighten up there case and explain convincingly exactly what happened on that horrible night, rather than just rely on confessions that must stand a 50% chance of being retracted before the trial, if the defendants are ever allowed access to decent legal representation.

Regarding the phone the police seem to have changed their original story that it was Hannah's phone found in the bushes now to David's phone. In one of the crime scene photographs on Liveleak showing David's body still in the water there seems to be something that could be a phone on beach next to the pair of shorts. The resolution is not high enough to be sure exactly what it is.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Dogmatix

[Beetlejuice]

What utter crap to support these police scum and write posts like this. Its so blatantly obvious is a stitch up. Are you from the UK? no prob not. We want justice. this is not justice just insulting to the families

I am half English and half American if you think that has any relevance to my comments.

Four simple questions for you:

Who are we?

Are you an official representative of the victims families?

Or have you been approached by any of the victims families or representatives acting on their behalf to be their spokesperson?

Or are you just some self appointed shmuck acting as a sort of unofficial spokesperson who`s mission is to discredit the police and the said investigation?

[mrtoad]

BJ your allegience to The BIB is well known.

[JohnThailandJohn]

If somebody can answer this without outrageous and highly implausible scenarios then I will reconsider this being anything but an open and shut case at this point.

Putting aside all the other evidence against these two .... Two labs (Singapore and Thailand) got DNA results from the crime scene showing two people's DNA in the victim. These results are on file in both countries and have been shared with many people involved in the testing of samples. The two suspects match this DNA. As police and everyone one knows, as long as these two suspects exist there DNA can be taken and checked again by the suspects lawyers against the originals on file here and in Singapore which will also become part of the court's records and evidence.

Despite what anyone thinks the defense will have the option to recheck the DNA.

So, how do the police continue the cover-up once it goes to court and they no longer have a say?

[Dogmatix]

If somebody can answer this without outrageous and highly implausible scenarios then I will reconsider this being anything but an open and shut case at this point.

Putting aside all the other evidence against these two .... Two labs (Singapore and Thailand) got DNA results from the crime scene showing two people's DNA in the victim. These results are on file in both countries and have been shared with many people involved in the testing of samples. The two suspects match this DNA. As police and everyone one knows, as long as these two suspects exist there DNA can be taken and checked again by the suspects lawyers against the originals on file here and in Singapore which will also become part of the court's records and evidence.

Despite what anyone thinks the defense will have the option to recheck the DNA.

So, how do the police continue the cover-up once it goes to court and they no longer have a say?

Is it confirmed that the crime scene samples were also sent to Singapore for testing? I remember it being reported on 21 Sep that samples would be sent to Singpore (but not to the FBI) but didn't see anything confirming that had actually happened.

[jonw8uk]

Bear in mind these two boys are under five feet and half David's size, it seems improbable to any reasonable person that they committed both of the murders.

Where in the world did you get they were under five feet and even if they were 4 feet are you suggesting David was 8 feet?

Did you miss the fact they attacked him from behind and had weapon(s).

Whilst I agree that the DNA results should be irrefutable, you seem to hold a lot of faith in the thai police being straight and following procedure. Your thoughts that the RTP would have had the forethought on the outcome of tampering with DNA, IMO is naive. From the saudi diamond scandal, various other farces already mentioned, right up to the more recent red bull heir ( being allowed to leave the country when facing Murder/manslaughter, DUI, drugs charges.......?!?!?!?) Its been shown time and time again that the police/courts CAN and DO pervert the course of justice.

I don't think they possess the forethought for anything; the investigation has bumbled along from one stupid comment, scenario, motive to the next, hence why its taken 3 weeks for someone a bit smarter to make a that story fits. I have a pic from the a thai news report, showing the 2 accused lining up for a DNA swab the day after. As you said, there may have been a backlog - and an order of priority for testing........yep, I'd say the workers at a bar where the Brits had an altercation the same night, would be high on that priority list.....

They may have done it, and if allowed, a fully independent test will confirm it. But I don't think its the full story. For me, just now, there are too many unanswered questions.

Has there been any explanation of the condom found with the female DNA on the outside, but nothing inside?? double bagged maybe??

Another thai news report aired on the 17th said that semen was also found in the male. I've heard nothing of this since (i have the youtube link)

Also, as others have mentioned, where is the friend Sean and why is he silent?? and for that matter, all of Hannah's friends who left the island the next day too. Someone must have info.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Please sign !!!

over 14,000 now in less than 48 hrs

Only 850 more signatures needed

I deem myself to be a good person but I'm not signing some stupid and irrelevant petition!!

Just signed and many of my friends too.

Fair enough, up to you!!! but you won't catch me signing it.

[denkiblue555]

I don't get your point.

All I am for is the truth and if an outsider could possibly confirm what the police claim, I think we would all be for it - and I would welcome it.

I don't believe the official story due to the massive number of holes in what the police claim.

I don't know what I could possibly have to hide other than the fact that this event has affected me enormously, and I hope for the families of the victims that justice is served.

I would have no hesitation being the first to admit I was wrong (especially to JTJ) - I would be proud to lose face here. I am just fearing that this event will end like so many have during my time in Thailand. It is just too hard for me to ignore what the police have done before in 'tourist' related situations as well.

I respect your post and if you don't mind me asking or your sharing ... why has this affected you enormously?

Well....you first - you answer one of my unanswered questions to you in the last dozen pages....

[Anthony5]

I hope you all realise that DNA samples are not taken by the cop who tickets you for not wearing a helmet, nor are they able to mess with DNA samples.

This is all done by forensic experts that are not related to headmen on a remote island.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Bear in mind these two boys are under five feet and half David's size, it seems improbable to any reasonable person that they committed both of the murders.

Where in the world did you get they were under five feet and even if they were 4 feet are you suggesting David was 8 feet?

Did you miss the fact they attacked him from behind and had weapon(s).

Whilst I agree that the DNA results should be irrefutable, you seem to hold a lot of faith in the thai police being straight and following procedure. Your thoughts that the RTP would have had the forethought on the outcome of tampering with DNA, IMO is naive. From the saudi diamond scandal, various other farces already mentioned, right up to the more recent red bull heir ( being allowed to leave the country when facing Murder/manslaughter, DUI, drugs charges.......?!?!?!?) Its been shown time and time again that the police/courts CAN and DO pervert the course of justice.

I don't think they possess the forethought for anything; the investigation has bumbled along from one stupid comment, scenario, motive to the next, hence why its taken 3 weeks for someone a bit smarter to make a that story fits. I have a pic from the a thai news report, showing the 2 accused lining up for a DNA swab the day after. As you said, there may have been a backlog - and an order of priority for testing........yep, I'd say the workers at a bar where the Brits had an altercation the same night, would be high on that priority list.....

They may have done it, and if allowed, a fully independent test will confirm it. But I don't think its the full story. For me, just now, there are too many unanswered questions.

Has there been any explanation of the condom found with the female DNA on the outside, but nothing inside?? double bagged maybe??

Another thai news report aired on the 17th said that semen was also found in the male. I've heard nothing of this since (i have the youtube link)

Also, as others have mentioned, where is the friend Sean and why is he silent?? and for that matter, all of Hannah's friends who left the island the next day too. Someone must have info.

So you suspect the police given their vast experience in coverups and corruption would not have thought this through and just willy nilly set up the guys.

Implausible scenario number 1 but I will admit it is not as far fetched as some scenarios mentioned here but still very highly implausible. If you said they had a plan to get rid of these two (maybe explosion or murder them and say they escaped) I would find this more believable but still unlikely given the extremely high profile of the case and all the scrutiny the police have been under and that they are operating under a microscope (be it a broken one) with this case.

[denkiblue555]

Fair enough, up to you!!! but you won't catch me signing it.

Why the need to comment then? - it is not the first time you have tried to put a negative spin on the petition....let it go - what do you care?

[DennisF]

Fair enough, up to you!!! but you won't catch me signing it.

So to precis: What you are saying is that you are not prepared to do anything to get justice for the deceased.

Irrelevant?? How do you know?

[stephen terry]

Since scenarios are being trotted out willy nilly, here's mine:

David and Hanna in bar, but not always sitting together. Thai slickster asks her 'that your fren?' She says 'yes.' then they get in to the bar conversation which has been repeated 5 million times in Thailand, and she laughs as says, "oh, I see, fren means boyfriend, not just friend. In that case, no he's not my boyfriend."

Thai guy is determined to go all the way, and may have even bragged to one or more of his buddies about it. That would explain, when he got rebuffed later, why he went ballistically savage.

Fastforward to murder scene. The two farang were not necessarily making love. They may not even have been making out. Finding an unused condom on a party beach is not unusual. It could readily have already been there.

Thai guy(s) walk with them or catches up with them. All parties are still in a comeraderie joking mood (still drunk). Thai guy takes her aside (every guy on the prowl knows one of the first thing to try to do when seducing a girl is to get her physically away from her b.f. or protector). Thai guy's friend distracts David. Thai guy 1 puts the moves on Hanna. She resists (and probably calls out). David notices and tries to extract her (btw, Sean said David was 'a true hero and tried to save Hannah'). Actually Sean was likely nearby also (or came to see what the commotion was about), as evidenced by him suffering a wound on his arm which was identical to the multiple wounds suffered by David.

As David tried to extract Hanna from the clutches of the Thai, he's confronted by Thai #2 who is left handed and has a punch knife (which explains David's peculiar multiple wounds on the right side of his body). Those wounds were not caused by a hoe, and even the cops corroborated that early in their investigation, though they changed their story when the Burmese scapegoats were micro-managed in the reenactment.

David was killed while Hannah was being held (probably her mouth covered) by Thai #1. When Hannah still didn't submit, she was raped by both Thai men and then bludgeoned with the back end of the hoe.

Yes, that's exactly my take on what actually happened. I'm sure if an uncontaminated independent DNA test is demanded by the legal team representing the B2 it would prove it one way or the other. Unfortunately I don't think that wouldn't be permitted, just like the refusal of the rich family to provide DNA.

And this of course all makes sense because nobody in the bar, including their friends have stated anything like this happened and because it is the two suspects in custody who confessed and whose DNA matched.

On the contrary, McAnna did. And his friends fled the island. The RTP are known to coerce a confession, that's the norm, and of course they'd say the DNA matched, even if it didn't. I could be wrong, but I do not support your belief that the B2 are guilty. And it's about time you acknowledged that you could be wrong as well in placing blind faith on the integrity of the RTP in this investigation that demanded a solution before the high season.

If you remember the initial police statement was 'a Thai could not possibly have committed this murder'. Wouldn't you agree that this is a xenophobic statement. Let me put it another way. If a Farang confessed, I'd be more likely to believe that scenario than the never-ending Burmese 'foreigners' used as scapegoats.