Appeal or Start again

[passpato]

I live in the UK with my Thai wife for the last 6 years and she has Citizenship and a British passport. I got all of her visas myself at the appropriate times. My friend has recently married a Thai lady and is having problems getting a visa. He has his own sucsessfull business and we think he meets all the criteria. However she has been refused a visa on financial grounds. Apparently he hasn't been able to proove all of the money he said he was earning (26,000) . He did however provide proof of over 18,500 which he says is the required amount but he now believes he should have prooved all of his earnings and this is why he was refused. He was using a Thai visa company (which I advised against)

I have printed off the finacial requirements from this site and handed them to him.

I think he should get her over on a tourist visa as a stop gap while this is sorted out. They have been married nearly 5 months and living apart. Any thought on all of this ? Any help appreciated. Should he appeall or start a new application ?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Your friend might be right. We are dealing with an almost identical a case at the moment.

If your friend can post the refusal notice here ( first removing personal data, such as names and case references ) then we might be able to give you some advice here. Alternatively, he can can contact us by email or phone ( numbers on out website) with fuller details of his income ,etc.

If he is right, and the Embassy is wrong, then he will not need to appeal. He can appeal now, of course. It will cost him either 80 GBP or 140 GBP to do so, and the appeal procedure can take between 8 - 12 months. Once he appeals the papers will be sent back to Bangkok, and an Entry Clearance Manager will review the decision. This can take a few months. If the ECM decides that the decision to refuse was wrong, then he will overturn that decision. But, your friend won't get his appeal fee back ! Any appeal must be submitted within 28 days of the refusal, so your friend may have limited time to make a decision.

Your friend can, of course, submit a new application, but if the ECO was wrong, then your friend will end up paying around 2,000 GBP in all for the visa.

Tony M

[passpato]

Thanks for the help. Attached are the three pages of the refusal form . My friend would like to know if he can apply for a Tourist visa for his wife as a stop gap and would it interfere with her resisdency visa application? Also could they reapply for residency during the appeal if it the appeal took too long ? Can people run applications along side each other ? Could she be called for interview in BKK for residency while in the UK on a tourist visa ?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Coincidentally, it is the same ECO as in the other application that we re dealing with.

If your friend would like to contact us ( numbers and email are on the website - click on out avatar on the left), we might be able to help. I have some concerns about the refusal notice, or rather the lack of detail in the reasons for refusal.

Your friend can apply for a visit visa, but in view of the fact that the applicant has just been refused a settlement visa, it would need to be a very strong application in order to succeed.

If your friend appeals, and wishes to submit a further settlement application, then the appeal will have to be withdrawn. She can submit a visit visa application while the appeal is outstanding, but not an application in the same category. They have 3 weeks left to submit an appeal, if they want to do so.

Tony M

[ThaiVisaExpress]

I should have explained the bit about the appeal a little better. I apologise. If your friend appeals against the refusal, and then submits a new settlement application, the original appeal will still go ahead while the new application is being processed. But if a settlement visa is issued for the new application then the original appeal must be withdrawn.

Tony M

[passpato]

If I remember rightly .. You have to submit the passport with any application. Meaning you can only submit one at a time?

[passpato]

Where is the appeal submitted ? Is in in England or Bangkok ?

[CiaranO]

What's the part about sponsor being married and divorced before about. It seems there was more than one reason for refusal.

[Tony M]

Where is the appeal submitted ? Is in in England or Bangkok ?

The appeal is submitted online. There would have been guidance enclosed with the refusal notice. The Appeals Tribunal is in the UK, and that is where an appeal will be heard.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Tony M

[Tony M]

If I remember rightly .. You have to submit the passport with any application. Meaning you can only submit one at a time?

The passport was returned with the refusal notice. If the applicant appeals, she retains her passport, and can use it for any new application.

[7by7]

Page 2 of the refusal notice lists the documents a self employed sponsor must submit and then says "you have failed to provide all the specified documents of your sponsor's self employment....."

Did he submit all the documents on the list?

[Tony M]

Page 2 of the refusal notice lists the documents a self employed sponsor must submit and then says "you have failed to provide all the specified documents of your sponsor's self employment....."

Did he submit all the documents on the list?

That's one of the concerns I have with the refusal notice. It's a pretty poor effort. How is someone supposed to submit a detailed appeal against such a poor notice of refusal.

[bobrussell]

I would suspect an appeals judge would not be particularly impressed by such a poorly worded statement. If you have spent such a lot of money on an application you do have a right to a clear and concise explanation of the reasons for that rejection.

[7by7]

I agree; it is a form letter poorly filled in.

However, it does seem to say that the applicant has not provided all the financial documents required when the sponsor is self employed.

We all know that, if true, this means that the ECO had no choice other than to refuse.

What is missing from the refusal is which documents were not included in the application.

Therefore, unless they actually did supply all the required documents, the refusal is correct and any appeal will fail; no matter how poorly worded the refusal notice.

That's my opinion, anyway; I am more than willing to be shown to be wrong; hopeful that I will be, in fact.

[Tony M]

I agree; it is a form letter poorly filled in.

However, it does seem to say that the applicant has not provided all the financial documents required when the sponsor is self employed.

We all know that, if true, this means that the ECO had no choice other than to refuse.

What is missing from the refusal is which documents were not included in the application.

Therefore, unless they actually did supply all the required documents, the refusal is correct and any appeal will fail; no matter how poorly worded the refusal notice.

That's my opinion, anyway; I am more than willing to be shown to be wrong; hopeful that I will be, in fact.

I would be happy to argue, at this stage, that the ECO did have a choice. The immigration rules grant the ECO discretion where documents are missing from the specified requirements. Without knowing what documents were missing ( the ECO's Notice of Refusal is inadequate), then we don't know if the ECO should have, or could have, used the discretion given to him under "evidential flexibility". Rather, the ECO seems to have taken the path of refusing the application without a full explanation ( which is also against the guidance given to ECOs), requiring the applicant to either appeal or re-apply.

Regarding the lack of evidence that the sponsor was free to marry, again the ECO could have, and maybe should have, requested the divorce certificate. The ECO has, apparently, alleged that the sponsor may have not been free to marry the applicant ( which in itself would, I guess, imply bigamy on the part of the sponsor). It has previously been brought to the Embassy's attention in other applications that, if the applicant and sponsor married in Thailand, then the Embassy's own Consular Section would have had to certify the sponsor as being free to marry, and are required to see his divorce certificate in order to do so. The Embassy's response is that they are not required to cross reference any unrelated applications made to other Embassy departments. I can't really argue with that here but, I would argue that, because it is logical to assume that the Consular Section did see the divorce certificate, then it would be reasonable to assume, on balance, that the current marriage is genuine, and that it would therefore also be reasonable for the ECO to just ask for confirmation rather than require an appeal or new application.

As stated earlier, if the applicant or sponsor would like us to assist, then they should contact Paul at Thai Visa Express direct.

[7by7]

Thanks for the clarification, Tony.

I must admit that I thought evidence of self employed income was one of the areas where the ECO did not have the discretion you mention; obviously I was wrong.

As stated earlier, if the applicant or sponsor would like us to assist, then they should contact Paul at Thai Visa Express direct.

Which is, in my view, the best way forward for them.