Thai editorial: Rule of law versus political revenge

[Thanet]

Corruption? You mean the 'negligence' case ? The one which seems obvious to all but some who don't want to see?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766276-thai-editorial-rule-of-law-versus-political-revenge/#entry8498739

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

Budgets get overspent in Holland too, through incompetence, as you know. It's one of the reasons why a deflationary spiral is worsening over there.

Governments in the western world who overspend budgets don;t get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers either. Nature takes its course and the electorate votes the other way.

[Thanet]

She was Chairman of the Rice Committee and never attended one meeting. It's well documented that she received warnings that there was corruption involved and that the cost of the program would be devastating for the country. Her negligence is quite obvious.

Interesting. I must have missed it.

Now tell us where and how it's 'well documented' please.

The NACC is still desperately trying to pin blame on her, but they don't seem to have made any progress yet. That seems rather odd, given that corruption was one of the main reasons for launching the coup in the first place.

Do you know something that we don't?

By looking back at your posts you sure have missed an awful lot.

2013-06-07

Cumulative Losses From Thaksin Govts' Farm Schemes Touch Almost Bt400 Billion

The Finance Ministry's Post-Audit Committee on the Rice Pledging Scheme revealed yesterday that the government of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra had overspent the budget for the rice-pledging project - Bt661.22 billion, well in excess of the Bt500 billion earmarked for the project.

http://www.thaivisa....-bt400-billion/

2013-06-03

Higher-Than-Expected Losses Negative For Thailand's Rating: Moody's

Recent losses and any future losses from the unmodified rice buying scheme will increase the difficulty of the Thai government's task of reaching its goal of a balanced budget by 2017, and are credit negative for the Thai sovereign, warned Moody's Investors Service.

http://www.thaivisa....-rating-moodys/

2013-04-18

Thailand's Farmer-Friendly Rice Subsidy Backfires

http://www.businessw...bsidy-backfires

2013-03-18

Govt must be held accountable for ruinous rice scheme

http://www.thaivisa....us-rice-scheme/

2013-03-06

Govt's Rice-Pledging Scheme Taking A Toll On Thailand's Budget

http://www.thaivisa....ailands-budget/

2012-11-14

Govt will not heed warnings on rice subsidy scheme

http://www.thaivisa....subsidy-scheme/

That enough to go on with ? can fill a page if you wish.

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

You started off by making accusations of corruption, but the only thing that is 'well documented' is that the scheme lost money, which is quite a different thing. Incompetence and wastage are hallmarks of every Thai government, and left leaning or populist foreign governments, that I can recall. Can you think of any exceptions? The NACC can't seem to find evidence of corruption here though. Neither, it seems, can you.

Governments in the western world make similar mistakes, overspend budgets and cause deficits. There are so many examples - look at what happened in 2008. The difference is that these governments are elected by their citizenry and they don't get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers trying to live in the past, on a pretext of trumped up charges of corruption, where no evidence exists to this day. In a civilised society, nature takes its course, people get fed up, and the electorate votes the other way.

Yours is a straw man argument, and you got busted.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Thanet

[rubl]

It's amusing how you talk about all these parts of the government like they actually are separate entities, when in actual fact they are all puppets of the NCPO.

Its amazing indeed, just like we're told that the Yingluck government, the Yingluck cabinet, , Pheu Thai and UDD are totally different entities while in actual fact they are just puppets of the criminal fugitive hiding abroad.

I've never said that Thaksin, Yingluck, PTT, UDD et al are anything other than one and the same thing. They don't seem to make any effort to deny it either. Its obviously the case, and I share your distaste for them.

If you were honest, you'd now concede that the NLA, NRC, judiciary, army, police, air force and navy are all under the same command -- the NCPO. After all, it's written into the constitution that the NCPO has total control over everything, in having the power of veto.

Instead, you purport this silly pretence that all these organs of government act autonomously, lecturing people about this or that dummy legal process, as if you believed that the result is anything other than a foregone conclusion. You talk as if there is some kind of separation between parts of the administration, similar to what you'd see in Holland, even though here everything is working under the complete control of a dictator.

So? With all your posts It would seem you want to go back to the democratic control of a criminal fugitive.

[rubl]

Corruption? You mean the 'negligence' case ? The one which seems obvious to all but some who don't want to see?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/766276-thai-editorial-rule-of-law-versus-political-revenge/#entry8498739

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

Budgets get overspent in Holland too, through incompetence, as you know. It's one of the reasons why a deflationary spiral is worsening over there.

Governments in the western world who overspend budgets don;t get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers either. Nature takes its course and the electorate votes the other way.

Subsidy? A at minimum self-financing scheme which 'only' required a revolving funds of 500 billion Baht, and was deemed to not need any resources to be allocated in the National Budget. Now a 700++ billion Baht debt to BAAC guaranteed by the Yingluck Government and dropped in the lap of their successors.

Governments in the Western World don't get to make ridiculous election promises guaranteed to ruin a countries finances to the point a new government has limited financial margin to help the country move forward.

As for corruption, any scheme which corrupts ideas and people can be named corrupt. Personally I think the charge of 'negligence' should at least be criminally negligent.

Edited October 9, 2014 by rubl

[Thanet]

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

Budgets get overspent in Holland too, through incompetence, as you know. It's one of the reasons why a deflationary spiral is worsening over there.

Governments in the western world who overspend budgets don;t get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers either. Nature takes its course and the electorate votes the other way.

Subsidy? A at minimum self-financing scheme which 'only' required a revolving funds of 500 billion Baht, and was deemed to not need any resources to be allocated in the National Budget. Now a 700++ billion Baht debt to BAAC guaranteed by the Yingluck Government and dropped in the lap of their successors.

Governments in the Western World don't get to make ridiculous election promises guaranteed to ruin a countries finances to the point a new government has limited financial margin to help the country move forward.

As for corruption, any scheme which corrupts ideas and people can be named corrupt. Personally I think the charge of 'negligence' should at least be criminally negligent.

Subsidising anything is going to result in a fiscal black hole, and with global debt at historic highs I'm trying hard to think of a government anywhere that is in the black at the moment.

Call it bad policy if you like, but so far no evidence of corruption, criminal negligence, or whatever you might like to call it. The NACC is scratching around desperately for that smoking gun, but can;t seem to find one.

Justice depends on factual evidence, so what you personally think is irrelevant anyway.

[rubl]

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

Budgets get overspent in Holland too, through incompetence, as you know. It's one of the reasons why a deflationary spiral is worsening over there.

Governments in the western world who overspend budgets don;t get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers either. Nature takes its course and the electorate votes the other way.

Subsidy? A at minimum self-financing scheme which 'only' required a revolving funds of 500 billion Baht, and was deemed to not need any resources to be allocated in the National Budget. Now a 700++ billion Baht debt to BAAC guaranteed by the Yingluck Government and dropped in the lap of their successors.

Governments in the Western World don't get to make ridiculous election promises guaranteed to ruin a countries finances to the point a new government has limited financial margin to help the country move forward.

As for corruption, any scheme which corrupts ideas and people can be named corrupt. Personally I think the charge of 'negligence' should at least be criminally negligent.

Subsidising anything is going to result in a fiscal black hole, and with global debt at historic highs I'm trying hard to think of a government anywhere that is in the black at the moment.

Call it bad policy if you like, but so far no evidence of corruption, criminal negligence, or whatever you might like to call it. The NACC is scratching around desperately for that smoking gun, but can;t seem to find one.

Justice depends on factual evidence, so what you personally think is irrelevant anyway.

Now please pay attention. The Yingluck government stated their policy as self-financing which justified a separate 'revolving funds' outside the National Budget as no reservations for losses needed to be made. The very fact that the Thai people now have an additional debt of 700++ billion Baht to be financed with their tax payments is a clear indication of criminal negligence on the part of the Yingluck government.

The factual evidence of negligence is in the 700++ billion Baht debt guaranteed by the Yingluck government. If as Thai you don't think that's criminal I wonder if you pay income tax yourself.

The NACC has been told to close some gaps in their presentation. Don't worry, they will.

[tbthailand]

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

Budgets get overspent in Holland too, through incompetence, as you know. It's one of the reasons why a deflationary spiral is worsening over there.

Governments in the western world who overspend budgets don;t get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers either. Nature takes its course and the electorate votes the other way.

Subsidy? A at minimum self-financing scheme which 'only' required a revolving funds of 500 billion Baht, and was deemed to not need any resources to be allocated in the National Budget. Now a 700++ billion Baht debt to BAAC guaranteed by the Yingluck Government and dropped in the lap of their successors.

Governments in the Western World don't get to make ridiculous election promises guaranteed to ruin a countries finances to the point a new government has limited financial margin to help the country move forward.

As for corruption, any scheme which corrupts ideas and people can be named corrupt. Personally I think the charge of 'negligence' should at least be criminally negligent.

Subsidising anything is going to result in a fiscal black hole, and with global debt at historic highs I'm trying hard to think of a government anywhere that is in the black at the moment.

Call it bad policy if you like, but so far no evidence of corruption, criminal negligence, or whatever you might like to call it. The NACC is scratching around desperately for that smoking gun, but can;t seem to find one.

Justice depends on factual evidence, so what you personally think is irrelevant anyway.

Now please pay attention. The Yingluck government stated their policy as self-financing which justified a separate 'revolving funds' outside the National Budget as no reservations for losses needed to be made. The very fact that the Thai people now have an additional debt of 700++ billion Baht to be financed with their tax payments is a clear indication of criminal negligence on the part of the Yingluck government.

The factual evidence of negligence is in the 700++ billion Baht debt guaranteed by the Yingluck government. If as Thai you don't think that's criminal I wonder if you pay income tax yourself.

The NACC has been told to close some gaps in their presentation. Don't worry, they will.

just a point of interest, Rubl, how many tons of rice are in government warehouses now?

and the next question: what is the estimated value of that rice when it is sold?

and the last question: how much of the 700++ billion Bhat does that pay off?

Just curious, you know. You sound like an expert.

[rubl]

Subsidising anything is going to result in a fiscal black hole, and with global debt at historic highs I'm trying hard to think of a government anywhere that is in the black at the moment.

Call it bad policy if you like, but so far no evidence of corruption, criminal negligence, or whatever you might like to call it. The NACC is scratching around desperately for that smoking gun, but can;t seem to find one.

Justice depends on factual evidence, so what you personally think is irrelevant anyway.

Now please pay attention. The Yingluck government stated their policy as self-financing which justified a separate 'revolving funds' outside the National Budget as no reservations for losses needed to be made. The very fact that the Thai people now have an additional debt of 700++ billion Baht to be financed with their tax payments is a clear indication of criminal negligence on the part of the Yingluck government.

The factual evidence of negligence is in the 700++ billion Baht debt guaranteed by the Yingluck government. If as Thai you don't think that's criminal I wonder if you pay income tax yourself.

The NACC has been told to close some gaps in their presentation. Don't worry, they will.

just a point of interest, Rubl, how many tons of rice are in government warehouses now?

and the next question: what is the estimated value of that rice when it is sold?

and the last question: how much of the 700++ billion Bhat does that pay off?

Just curious, you know. You sound like an expert.

Rule of law versus political revenge, or as Thaksin said in an interview in Hongkong in 2012 (I think), when I come back and people will see I am not out for revenge ,all will love me".

Anyway, more off topic some answers for TB as he doesn't like to read 'facts' himself, but needs to be told. Democratically of course, the telling that is.

It would seem that about 18 million tonnes of rice is still in government warehouses, although it maybe two million tonnes less by now. Most is said to be substandard as in of lesser standard than the documentation says and some really deteriorated bacause of improper storage and being rice of 2012 or 2011.

If we calculate an average of US$400 per tonne as possible revenue (sales price minus any costs the seller has) that might give us about 192 billion Baht. The average may seem low, but the better quality stuff has been sold and lower quality stuff is available in abundance. Furthermore that 'guestimate' covers 'sales now'. Next year the value will be really less as more than three year old rice doesn't bring you much in income.

Now of course with the previous government having failed to make additional provisions or even paying interest or commission / fund management costs, the debt to BAAC which the Yingluck guaranteed hasn't decreased much. Of course also the recently claimed 21 million still to be paid to farmers only increases the debt left for the current government and following to pay.

[Robby nz]

Interesting. I must have missed it.

Now tell us where and how it's 'well documented' please.

The NACC is still desperately trying to pin blame on her, but they don't seem to have made any progress yet. That seems rather odd, given that corruption was one of the main reasons for launching the coup in the first place.

Do you know something that we don't?

By looking back at your posts you sure have missed an awful lot.

2013-06-07

Cumulative Losses From Thaksin Govts' Farm Schemes Touch Almost Bt400 Billion

The Finance Ministry's Post-Audit Committee on the Rice Pledging Scheme revealed yesterday that the government of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra had overspent the budget for the rice-pledging project - Bt661.22 billion, well in excess of the Bt500 billion earmarked for the project.

http://www.thaivisa....-bt400-billion/

2013-06-03

Higher-Than-Expected Losses Negative For Thailand's Rating: Moody's

Recent losses and any future losses from the unmodified rice buying scheme will increase the difficulty of the Thai government's task of reaching its goal of a balanced budget by 2017, and are credit negative for the Thai sovereign, warned Moody's Investors Service.

http://www.thaivisa....-rating-moodys/

2013-04-18

Thailand's Farmer-Friendly Rice Subsidy Backfires

http://www.businessw...bsidy-backfires

2013-03-18

Govt must be held accountable for ruinous rice scheme

http://www.thaivisa....us-rice-scheme/

2013-03-06

Govt's Rice-Pledging Scheme Taking A Toll On Thailand's Budget

http://www.thaivisa....ailands-budget/

2012-11-14

Govt will not heed warnings on rice subsidy scheme

http://www.thaivisa....subsidy-scheme/

That enough to go on with ? can fill a page if you wish.

Any kind of subsidy that opposes market forces is a dumb idea. Being dumb is different from corruption though, and I'm keen to see what evidence you have on this smoking gun that the NACC can't seem to find.

You started off by making accusations of corruption, but the only thing that is 'well documented' is that the scheme lost money, which is quite a different thing. Incompetence and wastage are hallmarks of every Thai government, and left leaning or populist foreign governments, that I can recall. Can you think of any exceptions? The NACC can't seem to find evidence of corruption here though. Neither, it seems, can you.

Governments in the western world make similar mistakes, overspend budgets and cause deficits. There are so many examples - look at what happened in 2008. The difference is that these governments are elected by their citizenry and they don't get forced out at gunpoint by a bunch of old soldiers trying to live in the past, on a pretext of trumped up charges of corruption, where no evidence exists to this day. In a civilised society, nature takes its course, people get fed up, and the electorate votes the other way.

Yours is a straw man argument, and you got busted.

I never mentioned corruption, you asked for documentation that Yingluck was warned that the scheme was not viable, I provided that documentation.

The charges against Yingluck are not corruption but negligence for not overseeing the scheme in her self appointed role as chair of the rice policy committee.

I never put up any argument only provided what you asked, things that you obviously missed or ignored.