Suspects in Koh Tao backpacker murders retract confessions, says official

[MJP]

jdinasia, you seem to be dead against independent DNA testing. You appear to find any possible excuse as to why this shouldn't or can't happen.

If I'm wrong, please tell me so, as I have no doubt you will.

Not against it at all. I don't think it will happen though, and I do think it would not solve anything.

Oh JD! Really! It would remove doubt.

No, I'm not sure it will happen either. I do know that it would solve a lot though. This is getting worse and the handling by the RTP and Thai Government has been appalling, even if they are just guilty of blabbing nonsense randomly to the media in an uncontrolled manner.

Edited October 12, 2014 by MJP

[jdinasia]

I have long suspected that some people are very afraid to admit that the system is corrupt and that there's all sorts of conspiracies going on.. I think they are so afraid to admit it because they have been taught since being small kids that the government and police etc are there to protect them and that they are perfect guardians that will always help the ones that are innocent. FEAR

The same conclusions could be reached regarding the conspiracy theorists here.

Personally I fear all governments a bit. Hence why I would never volunteer DNA.

Double edged sword - I indeed would volunteer mine, to be acquitted from persecution, in my own country, because of the relatively low level of corruption regarding police here - would be hesitant about it in a developing country and/or where the relative level of corruption would be high, or even allegedly so, were it not in written that the sample will be a) destroyed after the investigation at hand, and be verifiable by any third party upon requested.

And how would you assure that it was destroyed? All of it?? And none was slipped away for a later day?

[jabis]

I have long suspected that some people are very afraid to admit that the system is corrupt and that there's all sorts of conspiracies going on.. I think they are so afraid to admit it because they have been taught since being small kids that the government and police etc are there to protect them and that they are perfect guardians that will always help the ones that are innocent. FEAR

The same conclusions could be reached regarding the conspiracy theorists here.

Personally I fear all governments a bit. Hence why I would never volunteer DNA.

Double edged sword - I indeed would volunteer mine, to be acquitted from persecution, in my own country, because of the relatively low level of corruption regarding police here - would be hesitant about it in a developing country and/or where the relative level of corruption would be high, or even allegedly so, were it not in written that the sample will be a) destroyed after the investigation at hand, and be verifiable by any third party upon requested.

And how would you assure that it was destroyed? All of it?? And none was slipped away for a later day?

Well, having it in writing counts for jack, except when coming under prosecutive measures. Should a planted evidence occur, having that documentation would weaken the case against that allegation.

Also storing random swabs of random people would cost quite a bit, and would have to be stored in a manner that would become more expensive upon the number of cases. The sample would also have a limited shelf life and number it could be used anyway. All and all, a leap of faith anyhow, with the judiciary system - the risk is nearly the same as hiring a highly incompetent lawyer, or get beaten to a confession.

[jdinasia]

Jabis

A small amount of blood or tissue is enough even if it is dried out.

[TheCruncher]

And how would you assure that it was destroyed? All of it?? And none was slipped away for a later day?

Well, having it in writing counts for jack, except when coming under prosecutive measures. Should a planted evidence occur, having that documentation would weaken the case against that allegation.

Also storing random swabs of random people would cost quite a bit, and would have to be stored in a manner that would become more expensive upon the number of cases. The sample would also have a limited shelf life and number it could be used anyway. All and all, a leap of faith anyhow, with the judiciary system - the risk is nearly the same as hiring a highly incompetent lawyer, or get beaten to a confession.

There have recently been some news reports, mainly from the US and Mr Google will be your friend, where people that have been on death-row for decades, now at once get cleared of all convictions because new DNA evidence proofs they are innocent.

How they do that ?

Edited October 12, 2014 by TheCruncher

[BuddhistVirus]

I have long suspected that some people are very afraid to admit that the system is corrupt and that there's all sorts of conspiracies going on.. I think they are so afraid to admit it because they have been taught since being small kids that the government and police etc are there to protect them and that they are perfect guardians that will always help the ones that are innocent. FEAR

The same conclusions could be reached regarding the conspiracy theorists here.

Personally I fear all governments a bit. Hence why I would never volunteer DNA.

Even if everyone were pointing their fingers at you for being a suspect? Even if you would want to clear your name off the suspect list?

The consensus is that the RTP are corrupt to the last man. If I accept that as even 20% true then why would I? Currently the man most of the conspiracy theorists here are pointing at has an alibi. He is not a suspect for the RTP. So no, I would not.

So, you agree to the 'consensus' of the 'conspiracy theorists'...

by the way, what alibi are you talking about? His moonwalk picture of supposed CCTV 'photo' with a wavy time stamp? By the way, where is the CCTV footage of that?

[lung]

--- CSI LA attacks ---

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=716282901782771&id=596740650403664&refid=17&ref=stream

[jdinasia]

I have long suspected that some people are very afraid to admit that the system is corrupt and that there's all sorts of conspiracies going on.. I think they are so afraid to admit it because they have been taught since being small kids that the government and police etc are there to protect them and that they are perfect guardians that will always help the ones that are innocent. FEAR

The same conclusions could be reached regarding the conspiracy theorists here.

Personally I fear all governments a bit. Hence why I would never volunteer DNA.

Even if everyone were pointing their fingers at you for being a suspect? Even if you would want to clear your name off the suspect list?

The consensus is that the RTP are corrupt to the last man. If I accept that as even 20% true then why would I? Currently the man most of the conspiracy theorists here are pointing at has an alibi. He is not a suspect for the RTP. So no, I would not.

So, you agree to the 'consensus' of the 'conspiracy theorists'...

by the way, what alibi are you talking about? His moonwalk picture of supposed CCTV 'photo' with a wavy time stamp? By the way, where is the CCTV footage of that?

No I don't agree that they are all corrupt.

I have no idea exactly how much proof he gave the police, but they are who he has to satisfy, not the conspiracy theorists.

[jabis]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Jabis

A small amount of blood or tissue is enough even if it is dried out.

True, but you would still need the facilities to keep all of those random samples in containment, now wouldn't you?

And how would you assure that it was destroyed? All of it?? And none was slipped away for a later day?

Well, having it in writing counts for jack, except when coming under prosecutive measures. Should a planted evidence occur, having that documentation would weaken the case against that allegation.

Also storing random swabs of random people would cost quite a bit, and would have to be stored in a manner that would become more expensive upon the number of cases. The sample would also have a limited shelf life and number it could be used anyway. All and all, a leap of faith anyhow, with the judiciary system - the risk is nearly the same as hiring a highly incompetent lawyer, or get beaten to a confession.

There have recently been some news reports, mainly from the US and Mr Google will be your friend, where people that have been on death-row for decades, now at once get cleared of all convictions because new DNA evidence proofs they are innocent.

How they do that ?

Yes, in US and all around the developed nations there are even DNA-registries - passports have chips containing your fingerprints etc.

My comment regarded the developing countries, where even the DNA-labs are either outdated or non-existent, if you'd care to reread my comment

Also as you said - they were cleared upon getting a matching sample from someone else - if you were jailed, you'd have no privileges as to deny a sample, but you could also demand to be sampled when new technologies for forensics develop.

I didn't quite understand what you were trying to contest in my post?

[jdinasia]

Jabis...

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order. I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Did you watch the series Dexter??

Edited October 12, 2014 by jdinasia

[hobz]

I have long suspected that some people are very afraid to admit that the system is corrupt and that there's all sorts of conspiracies going on.. I think they are so afraid to admit it because they have been taught since being small kids that the government and police etc are there to protect them and that they are perfect guardians that will always help the ones that are innocent. FEAR

The same conclusions could be reached regarding the conspiracy theorists here.

Personally I fear all governments a bit. Hence why I would never volunteer DNA.

I would not volunteer DNA either,, specially not to the thai police...

[steffi]

Somebody ask Mcanna what he thinks the weapon was and whether he has ever seen a push knife on Koh Tao.

[jabis]

Jabis...

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order. I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Did you watch the series Dexter??

I counter your Dexter-series with The Shield-series, if you get my gist

I'd suggest anything could happen as long as there are law enforcers going rogue. Also without the sample being contained properly, the odds would be the "evidence" would get unusable quite fast. I would still not shy away from clearing my name voluntarily, given that I would trust the country's judicial system. In this case I would propably consult a legal aid before giving up anything that could harm my reputation, and/or my well being, considering the circumstances are of high ranking corruption, and the knowledge I have of the judicial system.

[jdinasia]

DNA doesn't degrade that quickly if it dries on a surface or is contained alone.

It does degrade when it is wet or on a (pardon) wet*corpse.

[ScubaPhuket]

Jabis...

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order. I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Did you watch the series Dexter??

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

Pure speculation as you're so intent on attacking other posters with

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order.

Why Not? What have you done? I'd give my DNA tomorrow to prove my innocence or otherwise Take it, I have plenty.

I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Why? What are you hiding?

Did you watch the series Dexter??

No, I don't watch American tripe.

[smokie36]

Jabis...

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order. I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Did you watch the series Dexter??

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

Pure speculation as you're so intent on attacking other posters with

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order.

Why Not? What have you done? I'd give my DNA tomorrow to prove my innocence or otherwise Take it, I have plenty.

I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Why? What are you hiding?

Did you watch the series Dexter??

No, I don't watch American tripe.

I wonder what is going on with jdinasia....he has been on here non stop for the last twelve hours!

[Lozza]

Just had a chat with a thai woman that befriended me from CSI LA .. She said "i wish i wasnt born in thailand, it's 100% corruption" .. She said that this whole thing Shames Thailand ... I'm pretty sure she's not the only one/

Much has been said on CSI LA far worst than us farangs. It has it humorous side, calling the police retards, replacing the police heads with goats heads, the turtle and the goat and many more.

A new photo of Hannah which the Thai's have described as beautiful, look like doll.

There's a photo of a white coffin with the headman's sons photo on it, not sure what it represents.

A Photo of Saw's parents still crying.

[theoldgit]

A number of off topic post removed.

[jdinasia]

Jabis...

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order. I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Did you watch the series Dexter??

Any cop with a grudge could easily just keep a tiny sample and not from so many people.

Pure speculation as you're so intent on attacking other posters with

I'd never give up my civil liberties w/o a court order.

Why Not? What have you done? I'd give my DNA tomorrow to prove my innocence or otherwise Take it, I have plenty.

I would attempt to have my lawyer assure that afterwards it was destroyed.

Why? What are you hiding?

Did you watch the series Dexter??

No, I don't watch American tripe.

LOL.

Amazing how you got nothing right in there (other than your willingness to surrender your civil liberties to a police force you appear to consider corrupt!)

[canuckamuck]

Quite a few dumb arguments about storage of DNA. You don't need to keep a sample once you have the results stored digitally.

Do you think the police retest everyone's DNA every time the run a cross reference? You would only need to retest if the authenticity is questioned. Which of course we know that the 'Somchi's Crime Lab Express' results of the two Burmese guys is absolutely in doubt, simply because it is impossible for them have made the test in the time period. between arrest and announcement of DNA match.

[jdinasia]

Quite a few dumb arguments about storage of DNA. You don't need to keep a sample once you have the results stored digitally.

Do you think the police retest everyone's DNA every time the run a cross reference? You would only need to retest if the authenticity is questioned. Which of course we know that the 'Somchi's Crime Lab Express' results of the two Burmese guys is absolutely in doubt, simply because it is impossible for them have made the test in the time period. between arrest and announcement of DNA match.

Wrong about the time frame claim.

The rest of the argument was regarding civil liberties I think.

[boomerangutang]

I don't understand why the mafia son, if he said he wasn't even on the island during the murders, would not submit to a DNA test. Instead of producing time stamped photos that everyone is saying are doctored photos, just give a sample. Because if you weren't on the island during the murders, then for sure your DNA is nowhere near the crime scene.

I would never volunteer a DNA sample without a court order and a guarantee that it would be destroyed with the results after I was excluded. Would you??

I would absolutely, particularly if I was innocent. If I was guilty, I'd do as Nomsod is doing.

Exactly.. .BUT there's something strange going on here as well... I can't figure it out .. please help me..

Let's pretend that the headmans son IS GUILTY

Let's also pretend that the cops are in the headmans pocket.

Let's also pretend that the cops can falsify DNA tests.

All of the above is what people here suggests is the truth , correct?

Still pretending that the above is true .. why would the cops not simply falsify a dna test from the headmans son and say it was no match?

There can be 1,000 'why's and why not's' ....you can 'pretend' such and such, but those of us who are very familiar with how things happen in Thailand AND have been following this case from the first minutes it broke in to the news .....do more than 'pretend'. It's likely the headman's son is guilty. The cops are bending over backwards to shield the headman's people. The cops are playing loose with (and likely falsifying) the DNA trail.

Because this is Thailand, Thai officialdom will very likely prevail. Even if there are 10 million commentators on social media who think Thai cops are framing the Burmese, ....it's more important (to Thai officialdom) to plow ahead and convict the scapegoats. It's become bigger than trying to save face - it's now a matter of trying to save careers. In a non-3rd-world country, if top brass were found to be purposefully skewing evidence, the perpetrators would not only have their careers threatened, they would also likely suffer legal prosecution. In Thailand, that's not possible. The very worst that can happen to investigators (from top brass on down) who skew evidence - is possibly getting sent to the Ministry of Inactive Posts. But still, that's career- and income-threatening, so it's anathema to them.

[boomerangutang]

Quite a few dumb arguments about storage of DNA. You don't need to keep a sample once you have the results stored digitally.

Do you think the police retest everyone's DNA every time the run a cross reference? You would only need to retest if the authenticity is questioned. Which of course we know that the 'Somchi's Crime Lab Express' results of the two Burmese guys is absolutely in doubt, simply because it is impossible for them have made the test in the time period. between arrest and announcement of DNA match.

Wrong about the time frame claim.

Not wrong about time claim. Up until the Burmese scapegoats were arrested, we were told repeatedly by Thai officials that DNA testing was a slow process. When the scapegoats were grabbed, the DNA matches were surprisingly announced hours later. Even at the annoucement, there was no waffling as you might expect with such an important finding. It wasn't "it appears there are two matches" or "we're going to send this for independent tests, to make sure" Uh uh, it was "Hey everyone, perfect match. We found the murderers. There can be no doubt. The PM and all other top officials proclaim this has been a perfect investigation." YAY!

[DennisF]

I don't understand why the mafia son, if he said he wasn't even on the island during the murders, would not submit to a DNA test. Instead of producing time stamped photos that everyone is saying are doctored photos, just give a sample. Because if you weren't on the island during the murders, then for sure your DNA is nowhere near the crime scene.

I would never volunteer a DNA sample without a court order and a guarantee that it would be destroyed with the results after I was excluded. Would you??

I would absolutely, particularly if I was innocent. If I was guilty, I'd do as Nomsod is doing.

Exactly.. .BUT there's something strange going on here as well... I can't figure it out .. please help me..

Let's pretend that the headmans son IS GUILTY

Let's also pretend that the cops are in the headmans pocket.

Let's also pretend that the cops can falsify DNA tests.

All of the above is what people here suggests is the truth , correct?

Still pretending that the above is true .. why would the cops not simply falsify a dna test from the headmans son and say it was no match?

There can be 1,000 'why's and why not's' ....you can 'pretend' such and such, but those of us who are very familiar with how things happen in Thailand AND have been following this case from the first minutes it broke in to the news .....do more than 'pretend'. It's likely the headman's son is guilty. The cops are bending over backwards to shield the headman's people. The cops are playing loose with (and likely falsifying) the DNA trail.

Because this is Thailand, Thai officialdom will very likely prevail. Even if there are 10 million commentators on social media who think Thai cops are framing the Burmese, ....it's more important (to Thai officialdom) to plow ahead and convict the scapegoats. It's become bigger than trying to save face - it's now a matter of trying to save careers. In a non-3rd-world country, if top brass were found to be purposefully skewing evidence, the perpetrators would not only have their careers threatened, they would also likely suffer legal prosecution. In Thailand, that's not possible. The very worst that can happen to investigators (from top brass on down) who skew evidence - is possibly getting sent to the Ministry of Inactive Posts. But still, that's career- and income-threatening, so it's anathema to them.

That about sums it up.

I would add that there is a remote possibility that international pressure and the possibility of strained relationships with other countries, plus the tourist cash that will not be coming here might just tip the scales in favour of sacrificing a few guilty parties.

The dynamics on the island might also be a factor, there are , apparently 3 (some say 5) families of influence.

The family under the spotlight are affecting everyones business so perhaps there will be some kind of internal wrangling going on at this time.

Neither are we fully aware of the total prosecution case, perhaps there is compelling evidence against the Burmese. Like many, I need to be convinced but, at this stage, anything is possible.

Pure speculation, not even an opinion, on keyboard thinking.

[DennisF]

Quite a few dumb arguments about storage of DNA. You don't need to keep a sample once you have the results stored digitally.

Do you think the police retest everyone's DNA every time the run a cross reference? You would only need to retest if the authenticity is questioned. Which of course we know that the 'Somchi's Crime Lab Express' results of the two Burmese guys is absolutely in doubt, simply because it is impossible for them have made the test in the time period. between arrest and announcement of DNA match.

Wrong about the time frame claim.

Not wrong about time claim. Up until the Burmese scapegoats were arrested, we were told repeatedly by Thai officials that DNA testing was a slow process. When the scapegoats were grabbed, the DNA matches were surprisingly announced hours later. Even at the annoucement, there was no waffling as you might expect with such an important finding. It wasn't "it appears there are two matches" or "we're going to send this for independent tests, to make sure" Uh uh, it was "Hey everyone, perfect match. We found the murderers. There can be no doubt. The PM and all other top officials proclaim this has been a perfect investigation." YAY!

Not quite correct, the suspects DNA samples were taken on the first day, there are photos of them in the line.

However, the results of that day were proclaimed as negative so, the truth is still out there!!

IF they took a second sample this appears to miraculously be a perfect match.

[canuckamuck]

Quite a few dumb arguments about storage of DNA. You don't need to keep a sample once you have the results stored digitally.

Do you think the police retest everyone's DNA every time the run a cross reference? You would only need to retest if the authenticity is questioned. Which of course we know that the 'Somchi's Crime Lab Express' results of the two Burmese guys is absolutely in doubt, simply because it is impossible for them have made the test in the time period. between arrest and announcement of DNA match.

Wrong about the time frame claim.

The rest of the argument was regarding civil liberties I think.

If you remember correctly they said they would have the case solved in three days. One day later, they had arrested the Burmese guys based on CCTV evidence of them buying a pack of smokes. And the next day the police reported that the DNA was a match. You can not do DNA testing in 24 hours. No matter how much you beat the suspect. Information I have seen says it requires more than 48 hours.

Perhaps some other posters could help me to confirm that.

Even the NGO's were stating the same thing when they made complaints about the frame-up of these Burmese boys.

[changnaam]

Did the "police" not state that they hadn't tested these boys in the first round of tests? Only for photos to appear of them being tested.

It is amazing what they will claim to be absolute fact, only for it to be disproved by real evidence.

[jdinasia]

DNA testing can be done in hours. Commercial labs turn it around in less than 3 days with no rush put on it.

100's of tests would obviously take longer.

From the "we will complete the investigation in3 days " statement it was right at 3 days.

[canuckamuck]

DNA testing can be done in hours. Commercial labs turn it around in less than 3 days with no rush put on it.

100's of tests would obviously take longer.

From the "we will complete the investigation in3 days " statement it was right at 3 days.

The burden of proof is on you JD, I did a search and everything I found so far says, 5 -10 days. That is for the test not because of backlog. Hopefully there is a knowledgeable poster her who can clear this up.

Getting it done in hours JD? Links please.

[bannork]

Several posters have speculated that David tried to intervene whilst Hannah was being raped, in that case why was he found naked bar one shoe? Was he sexually abused too? If I remember rightly at first the police said he had been sodomised but then retracted that statement.