Sex Tourism

[jdinasia]

hmmmm this is the third time Lacoste has been nasty about gay guys

where is boo to help me?

[Lacoste]

It was a simple typo Jd, dont be so sensitive.

[Totster]

hmmmm this is the third time Lacoste has been nasty about gay guys

where is boo to help me?

Hardly a nasty comment...

....unless he was calling Brit gay !

totster

[britmaveric]

Hardly a nasty comment...

....unless he was calling Brit gay !

totster

Been called much worse I'm afraid - actually being called gay might be a compliment for some.

Speaking of Gay - wonder what Lacoste's warped sense of morality says about that topic?

Edited July 31, 2006 by britmaveric

[RAZZELL]

Until I met my TW I went with BG's. I told my very proper TW (no drink, no smoking, no bar scene, very religious) about the BG's and she didn't have a problem with it. Seems the farang moral superiors have the problem not most of the Thai people themselves.

He who is without sin............

I bet her family dont know.

Must be a wonderful view from that high horse...

Edited July 31, 2006 by RAZZELL

[farangsay]

OK this has gone on LONG ENOUGH you hear

Look at this forum and see a post "SEX TOURISM"

Hey , that's gotta beat traipsing around old ruins or geting hot sand in your shorts for two weeks.

But is there any info , tips whatever.

No , just a bunch of crap , people talking to each other about nothing.

I've googled til I'm googled

All I get is eco tourism (that's where you take your garbage home with you) , nature tourism

(that's where you look at animals and birds and stuff oh WOW) and adventure tourism (hey that's

scary - kayaking through rapids and stuff!) but sex tourism just doesn't show up.

OK stop contemplating your collective navels.

Useful info huh !?

Travel agents , tour operators OK?

I shall await your feedback before planning my vacation.

Edited July 31, 2006 by farangsay

[alexth]

I wonder what these sex tourists and uneducated farm girl prostitutes talk about.

Poetry, philosophy, paintings, literature, politics, the war in the middle-east and why not...the excedent of pineapple in the Chonburi area

[rainman]

I wonder who said this? "I know of one 62 year old farang who lives in Phuket, married to a 24 year old Thai. She goes to work every day, he doesn't work a thing, just sits home watching TV. And no, he's not rich, in fact quite the contrary. Her family bought their house."

i never updated that thread, did i? she kicked him out and now has a boyfriend her age. smart girl if you ask me

[rainman]

I agree they look more like a cross between Ernest Hemingway and Aristotle Onassis. One a fat drunkard and the other a hunchbacked dwarf. But they both did pretty well with the ladies.

surely both never spent a penny on their ladies would they have stayed with them if they weren't famous and rich? doubt it. don't take my slimy haired, unshaved beer belly and chang shirt thread wrong in any way, its just constructive criticism on how to do better with the ladies and not have everything in the relationship be about money, but also about attraction.

anyone want to join up for a "farang makeover" agency in bangkok?

[wilko]

You still haven't answered questions from aways back.

In fact, you do that alot don't you ? Expect people to answer your questions, while avoiding any answers of your own.

Why is that ?

For example, when I asked:

"What gives you the right to determine who is worthy of respect, and who isn't, without even knowing the people you are passing judgement on ?"

you've been strangely quiet.

prostitution violates the principle of humanity, it reflects a disrespectful attitude, which is expressed in the nonchalant use of the human body as a mere means to achieve financial gain.

You may not share my moral presuppositions, that prostitution defies the limits of respectful sexual relations and is a morally questionable and harmful activity but i am entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours.

I don't believe that people who engage in this behaviour can have any self respect and therefore can recieve no respect in return.

Without self respect you have but nothing IMHO

As I said earlier....why should you be "entitled to an opinion” if it has no basis in logic or rational thought.....you of all people show no indication as to why you should be entitled to an opinion. All you have done in this thread is produce a stream of unsupported assertions...they are NOT opinions...

For example “prostitution violates the principle of humanity”

What on earth is “the principle of humanity”? Are you quoting some well-know principle? Or have you just made that one up?

What is your source? What does it mean? How is it ”violated” by prostitution?

You admit to the use of “presuppositions”...I think that “prejudices” would be a better word though.

[Lacoste]

What on earth is “the principle of humanity”? Are you quoting some well-know principle? Or have you just made that one up?

What is your source? What does it mean? How is it ”violated” by prostitution?

The Kantian, Concerning the Distinctness of the Principles of Natural Theology and Morality.

[kerryk]

What on earth is “the principle of humanity”? Are you quoting some well-know principle? Or have you just made that one up?

What is your source? What does it mean? How is it ”violated” by prostitution?

The Kantian, Concerning the Distinctness of the Principles of Natural Theology and Morality.

I guess it should be pointed out that Kant was a lifelong celibate and never had sex. Isn’t it amazing that he shares his knowledge on the issues without ever having even a passing acquaintance with prostitution. I think much in the same way some expert posters know all about bar girls despite never having paid for sex.

[davethailand]

I wonder what these sex tourists and uneducated farm girl prostitutes talk about.

The fake people who judge others probably.

[davethailand]

(Quote) If you would like to know what the average Thai persons opinion is of Farang who come here and participate in the prostitution scene,you should have a look on the Thai forums,

Can't agree with this. The average Thai himself enjoys indulging himself in the scene even more than the Farang!! In the eyes of a Thai it's accepted behaviour (if you are a single man) to visit a girl for her services.

Sorry to burst your bubble, The general Thai populus has a very negative view of foreigners who come here to indulge in the sex trade.

What may i ask gives you the opinion/ feeling that you yourself are qualified to say this as?

Also what makes you think that you are more respectable and of a higher class than others?

Please don't say that you have a highly paid job in Bangkok and have many rich thai friends as that means nothing.

Yeah, sure, educated thais even offer prizes for people participating in the prostitution scene.

Your telling me that educated thai's don't dabble every now and then??

What makes some members on here think that they're part of a "special" group?

I have "prostitutes" as friends, does it make me a low class scumbag?

[Kerryd]

Your telling me that educated thai's don't dabble every now and then??

What makes some members on here think that they're part of a "special" group?

I have "prostitutes" as friends, does it make me a low class scumbag?

OoOoOo You're also a bar owner !

That's two strikes against you in some people's books !

I am still getting a kick out of the misguided notion some people have that the Thais don't themselves indulge in prostitution (apparently it is all the farang's fault. Without the farangs, prostitution would disappear overnight in Thailand)

Just helps to prove that some people really don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about, but still feel they have moral superiority over others.

I belive the medical community has a name for that.

[Lacoste]

I am still getting a kick out of the misguided notion some people have that the Thais don't themselves indulge in prostitution (apparently it is all the farang's fault. Without the farangs, prostitution would disappear overnight in Thailand)

Just helps to prove that some people really don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about, but still feel they have moral superiority over others.

I for one have never suggested this

What i have suggested is that the general Thai population regards Prostitutes and foreign men who go with them as dirt.

[kerryk]

I am still getting a kick out of the misguided notion some people have that the Thais don't themselves indulge in prostitution (apparently it is all the farang's fault. Without the farangs, prostitution would disappear overnight in Thailand)

Just helps to prove that some people really don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about, but still feel they have moral superiority over others.

I for one have never suggested this

What i have suggested is that the general Thai population regards Prostitutes and foreign men who go with them as dirt.

Do you think the Thai population thinks the Thai men that go with prostitutes are dirt? If not why?

[alexth]

(Quote) If you would like to know what the average Thai persons opinion is of Farang who come here and participate in the prostitution scene,you should have a look on the Thai forums,

Can't agree with this. The average Thai himself enjoys indulging himself in the scene even more than the Farang!! In the eyes of a Thai it's accepted behaviour (if you are a single man) to visit a girl for her services.

Sorry to burst your bubble, The general Thai populus has a very negative view of foreigners who come here to indulge in the sex trade.

What may i ask gives you the opinion/ feeling that you yourself are qualified to say this as?

Also what makes you think that you are more respectable and of a higher class than others?

Please don't say that you have a highly paid job in Bangkok and have many rich thai friends as that means nothing.

Yeah, sure, educated thais even offer prizes for people participating in the prostitution scene.

Your telling me that educated thai's don't dabble every now and then??

What makes some members on here think that they're part of a "special" group?

I have "prostitutes" as friends, does it make me a low class scumbag?

The special members that you are talking about aren't actually "special", they're normal, acting normal, doing normal things. Embracing prostitution is something special, to say the least and avoid being unpolite. Pattaya is a special place with...special people, I am pretty sure that if the hookers would disappear, those special people would also disappear and Pattaya wouldn't be such a special place anymore.

If some educated thais "dabble every now and then", I am sure they don't take prostitution as a normal, natural and moral thing. Also keep in mind that being educated is not equal to being rich. Don't make freaks out of normal people, Dave. If some people choose to live their life surrounded by prostitutes, it's their own choice and as far as I think, that makes them really "special".

[Lacoste]

The local prostitution scene is very much out of the public eye, you dont see Thai men parading there whores around town and it's not an in your face concept. The girls dont sit around in open air beer bars and such for all the world to see. So there for it can be tollerated.

The Farang version however is in your face and people would agree that this gives Thailand an unwanted reputation. So therefore the Farang Sex tourists are an unwelcome addition to Thailand.

The very fact that these girls do what they do with these 'people' relegates them to the margins of society.

Men who travel thousands of miles to take advantage of the counties economic situation and pray on a poor nations young people in this way are beyond defence.

Edited August 1, 2006 by Lacoste

[manjara]

...

I for one have never suggested this

What i have suggested is that the general Thai population regards Prostitutes and foreign men who go with them as dirt.

Do you think the Thai population thinks the Thai men that go with prostitutes are dirt? If not why?

Certain parts of all populations view prostitutes and their clients as dirt, in Thailand there are definitely 2 distinct 'markets'. The Karaoke bars frequented almost exclusively by Thai men, and the Farang bars populated almost exclusively with farang men. Most people just accept it as reality and I don't think they look on the farang as dirt unless they are behaving crassly (i.e. it's not the fact that they are with prostitutes, it's HOW they are with them - same goes for the women)

I don't have a big problem with it as long as there is no coercion (some bar owners require a certain number of bar fines per month or less wages are paid! ), but obviously the huge discrepancy in earning potential leads to people doing things they don't really want to do.

Let's also not fool ourselves and think this doesn't go on in our own countries, too.

I think help and education, rather than persecution, are a better approach to reducing it (it will never go away). By that I mean help to invest the earnings and plan a different career, as well as education to make it safer and less demeaning.

[britmaveric]

I for one have never suggested this

What i have suggested is that the general Thai population regards Prostitutes and foreign men who go with them as dirt.

Small Minority of the Thai Population is the true reality.

Edited August 1, 2006 by britmaveric

[atlastaname]

The local prostitution scene is very much out of the public eye, you dont see Thai men parading there whores around town and it's not an in your face concept. The girls dont sit around in open air beer bars and such for all the world to see. So there for it can be tollerated.

The Farang version however is in your face and people would agree that this gives Thailand an unwanted reputation. So therefore the Farang Sex tourists are an unwelcome addition to Thailand.

The very fact that these girls do what they do with these 'people' relegates them to the margins of society.

Men who travel thousands of miles to take advantage of the counties economic situation and pray on a poor nations young people in this way are beyond defence.

Without the prostitution Thailand would have nothing like the tourist industry it has and it would still be a third world place like Cambodia. People say its the unacceptable face of Thailand but in truth its one of the main if not only reason tens of thousands of people go there every year. Can't understand why Thailand is ashamed of it . If they promoted it even more then their tourist industry would explode.

I do not indulge and never have , my observations are made from using the simple laws of supply and demand and common sense. Why is it a problem ? To those who it appears to horrify well .... don't look ....simple!! There are plenty of areas where you can avoid it altogether if thats what you want . Go to the areas where it flouishes and thats where the crowds are .. i wonder why??

[tourleadersi]

The local prostitution scene is very much out of the public eye, you dont see Thai men parading there whores around town and it's not an in your face concept. The girls dont sit around in open air beer bars and such for all the world to see. So there for it can be tollerated.

The Farang version however is in your face and people would agree that this gives Thailand an unwanted reputation. So therefore the Farang Sex tourists are an unwelcome addition to Thailand.

The very fact that these girls do what they do with these 'people' relegates them to the margins of society.

Men who travel thousands of miles to take advantage of the counties economic situation and pray on a poor nations young people in this way are beyond defence.

Without the prostitution Thailand would have nothing like the tourist industry it has and it would still be a third world place like Cambodia. People say its the unacceptable face of Thailand but in truth its one of the main if not only reason tens of thousands of people go there every year. Can't understand why Thailand is ashamed of it . If they promoted it even more then their tourist industry would explode.

I do not indulge and never have , my observations are made from using the simple laws of supply and demand and common sense. Why is it a problem ? To those who it appears to horrify well .... don't look ....simple!! There are plenty of areas where you can avoid it altogether if thats what you want . Go to the areas where it flouishes and thats where the crowds are .. i wonder why??

I know what you're trying to say, but it won't ever happen that way. There is no way Thailand can push to be more accepted by the International Community whilst promoting itself as a sex tourism destination.

The one thing that it does do however is make at least a part of Thailands tourism dollar fairly resilient. After the Bali bombing people just switched to other beach destinations, and the return is probably very slow. But for countries like Egypt with the Pyramids, China with the Great Wall etc their tourism product tends to bounce back pretty quickly from such incidents as massacres (Egypt) and SARS (China). Unfortunately for Thailand the commodity making their product so resilient is their own people, and not in a positive sense.

[soic]

We can proselytize all we want here but the bottom line is that as long as there are shoppers, there will be vendors. If Thailand can continue to grow other attractions for tourists, then maybe as the other "trade" tourists arrive, the less desirable "attractions" can be weeded out. I still say, that if tourists went to Thailand to buy pancakes, the good people of Thailand would be selling boat loads of them. Poor countries sell what Rich tourists want...

[tourleadersi]

Thailand is fairly unusual in the sense that it already had a well established large sex industry prior to the advent of mass tourism. It is usually the case that the tourists come first and are followed pretty quickly by the 'vice services', including sex workers.

[Ling Kae]

The very fact that these girls do what they do with these 'people' relegates them to the margins of society.

Men who travel thousands of miles to take advantage of the counties economic situation and pray on a poor nations young people in this way are beyond defence.

Have you ever considered that some women are simply looking for a farang husband and have no other idea or ways and means of finding one. They get told that there are plenty of farang men in Pattaya and some farang men come to meet their soul mates in the same way. It does happen I have seen it many times. So what if they meet in a bar, plenty of farang couples meet in bars too.

The other thing is that most of the girls in beer bars in Pattaya are not "the poor nations young people". The are usually 30+ females that have been abandoned by abusive Thai men who they have had children to. I do talk to these ladies on a regular basis, they are my friends and I do respect them as equal human beings. I feel for them and good luck to them if they can snag the right guy and go overseas.

[kerryk]

The local prostitution scene is very much out of the public eye, you dont see Thai men parading there whores around town and it's not an in your face concept. The girls dont sit around in open air beer bars and such for all the world to see. So there for it can be tollerated.

The Farang version however is in your face and people would agree that this gives Thailand an unwanted reputation. So therefore the Farang Sex tourists are an unwelcome addition to Thailand.

The very fact that these girls do what they do with these 'people' relegates them to the margins of society.

Men who travel thousands of miles to take advantage of the counties economic situation and pray on a poor nations young people in this way are beyond defence.

I had wondered if you had been to any venues of Thai prostitution. You have answered my question. The answer is no.

Let me educate you. They are not private and very much in the open. In fact it is more in the open than Farang venues.

The best performing ladies are awarded presents on Stage in front of a mixed audience both male and female.

These are places in Bangkok that seat over 500 patrons.

There is nothing secret about them and they serve dinner and drinks and quite a good musical show along with comedy shows that you can see the same performers that are on Thai TV.

There is nothing hidden about it. The only thing hidden is your knowledge of these venues.

Are all of the Thai people that attend these places considered dirt? I hardly think so.

You are bringing your Western values to Thailand and they don’t fit.

It would not amaze anyone actually living in Thailand but it would probably amaze you if I related to you who I have seen at these places.

The Farang version is not in your face as Thai people are not allowed into the Farang clubs and very few Thai people go to those areas anyway except on business.

[kerryk]

...

I for one have never suggested this

What i have suggested is that the general Thai population regards Prostitutes and foreign men who go with them as dirt.

Do you think the Thai population thinks the Thai men that go with prostitutes are dirt? If not why?

Certain parts of all populations view prostitutes and their clients as dirt, in Thailand there are definitely 2 distinct 'markets'. The Karaoke bars frequented almost exclusively by Thai men, and the Farang bars populated almost exclusively with farang men. Most people just accept it as reality and I don't think they look on the farang as dirt unless they are behaving crassly (i.e. it's not the fact that they are with prostitutes, it's HOW they are with them - same goes for the women)

I don't have a big problem with it as long as there is no coercion (some bar owners require a certain number of bar fines per month or less wages are paid! ), but obviously the huge discrepancy in earning potential leads to people doing things they don't really want to do.

Let's also not fool ourselves and think this doesn't go on in our own countries, too.

I think help and education, rather than persecution, are a better approach to reducing it (it will never go away). By that I mean help to invest the earnings and plan a different career, as well as education to make it safer and less demeaning.

Thais can’t afford the most karaoke bars. They are frequented by Japanese men. Thais frequent other venues that are very well known in the Thai community. Some of the clubs/restaurants have a ticket system that will provide your date a partner to dance with or yourself. Some offer shows and some are very much like beer bars but in different areas. Some offer massage and some are simple coffee shops. Some are fishbowls and some are simply brothels.

[kerryk]

We can proselytize all we want here but the bottom line is that as long as there are shoppers, there will be vendors. If Thailand can continue to grow other attractions for tourists, then maybe as the other "trade" tourists arrive, the less desirable "attractions" can be weeded out. I still say, that if tourists went to Thailand to buy pancakes, the good people of Thailand would be selling boat loads of them. Poor countries sell what Rich tourists want...

I appreciate what you are saying but I must conclude you have never been to Miami or Tampa or Atlanta or San Francisco or Paducah. Cheap sex is available all over the world.

Why do men flock to Thailand? I am sure it is the food, the pristine beaches, the clean air, the wonderful business climate, the religious traditions, the magnificent mountains, the whatever.

You make a mistake saying Thailand is a poor country.

It is the richest country in the world. It has women who are the benchmark of the rest of the world.

Why do men work? Why do they strive? What drives civilization?

If you have a Thai wife you know the answer. If you don’t have a Thai wife then you are still learning.

[wilko]

What on earth is “the principle of humanity”? Are you quoting some well-know principle? Or have you just made that one up?

What is your source? What does it mean? How is it ”violated” by prostitution?

The Kantian, Concerning the Distinctness of the Principles of Natural Theology and Morality.

And that's it??? - you’re basing your entire argument on an 18th celibate philosopher......

Well I have to say that would follow from the increasing sense I'm getting of your narrow-minded approach to life.

"The great moral theorists in our tradition not only are all men, they are mostly men who had minimal adult dealings with (and so were then minimally influenced by) women." - Annette Baier

Essentially Kant is talking about mutual respect. However it has been pointed out that “a consistent Kantian can look upon providing sexual services as morally acceptable, provided no coercion is involved, and provided each participant fulfils his or her end of the bargain. Mutual respect is a real possibility in such activities”. I would have thought there is sufficient evidence to suggest that that is usually the case.

Kant’s main problem was although said to be celibate he had an (unhealthy?) obsession with sex and prostitution.....very similar to you? Kant looked upon “sexual desires as flaws which place us on the level with beasts”, rather than a normal part of human behaviour, he was repelled by them.

He didn’t even follow his own philosophy when discussing the subject. Compare his attitude to paying a waiter for food, against paying a person for sexual services.

There is of course a well known trait of those in denial to speak at lengths taking what they believe to be “the moral high ground” and criticising the sexual subject they secretly yearn to take part in; homophobia being a classic example.