Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

[hobz]

Uk police should compare their dna samples with those of the scapegoats parent. They should be able to do that without setting foot on Thailand.

If they dont have their own dna samples from the victims bodies all their work will be pointless anyway.

[phuketandsee]

Strong piece in the BP this morning under the title "Koh Tao case shatters faith in our police"

Tick tock

[ffaarraanngg]

I presume this is an attempto defuse the situation without giving any real concessions. The Welsh police who came out twice to assist Thai police in the investigation into the rape and murder of Kirsty Jones were stonewalled by Thai police and could not do their jobs effectively. The Saudis have got nowhere in investigating and pursuing justice for the murders of their nationals and recently withdrew their charge d'affairs again when one of the alleged murderers was appointed to the NLA. Thailand has put up a total ban on exporting labour to Saudi and a permanent downgrade in diploatic relations rather deliver justice for the murdered Saudis, not to mention the failure to return the most valuable pieces of the stolen jewellery.

Another issue is that the Thai police investigation is already finished and the case is with the prosecutor. Thai police may just tell their British counterparts that there is no more investigation for them to observe but they can attend the court hearings once every two or three months and spend the rest of their time on the beaches and in the bars and massage parlours.

What may be critical though is the extent to which British police are able and willing to investigate the evidence they have in the UK, incluing interviewing witnesses and, of course, verifying the DNA test results. If Thai police are as confident as they claim in their work, they should absolutely welcome British police confirming their findings and boosting their credibility.

Difference between this one and Kirstys murder is that social media is informing millions of people of what looks like a blatant cover up.

A lot of the evidence is out there thanks to CSI and incompetent policing.

[Bleacher Bum East]

BBEast 10/10 for your effort and explanation and I wish it were true. Put simply it won't effect the people of Thailand at all.... Nada, zilch nothing... There are several reasons, one being that human nature is what it is. People will forget and return to Thailand. Unfortunately you are only quoting British numbers. How many non English speaking nations due you think know about this incident. Then ask yourself what percentage of Russian and Chinese citizens have ever travelled abroad. Go find out.... Then ask yourself if these minimal figures were to easily double how much damage to tourism would b done here. I wish you were right but your not. Thailand is indestructible and will be proven again to be long after this is over. They know it and have known it for a very long time. Failing that the islands elite make much of their cash by exploiting migrant workers. Those workers will never stop coming. I hate writing this and I hope your right and I'm wrong, but this merry go round that is Thailand is impossible to get off. Of course only time will tell as it already has done in the past.

Johnsen I actually agree with you in many respects. The reason I focused only on British numbers was because the original post by JOC that I was replying to (both JOC's post and my reply were deleted as being "off topic") estimated the impact of the loss of all British tourists to Thailand at .2-.3% of GDP and implied if that happened the impact would be minimal. I disagreed and provided researched facts to explain why.

But I do agree with you that without either an embargo (unlikely) or an elevated travel warning (possible) that makes travel here impractical for UK citizens, the drop in numbers from the UK will not be huge for the reasons you stated ... and the drop in numbers because of Koh Tao from Russia and China will be insignificant (although increasing Thai-on-Chinese violence may have a similar impact).

However, any escalation by the British government (e.g.a heightened travel warning or releasing publicly information they have collected which contradicts the Thai police narrative) could have a ripple effect and the cumulative negative impact on tourist arrivals from all countries over the next year or two may then approach the numbers I quoted. Cameron and his foreign office know this, and the PM and his advisers know this (and even with increasing Chinese tourism, they cannot afford to lose a big slice of any market segment while they are care-taking a shaky economy, which they depend on being healthy for their legitimacy). I believe this gave Cameron significant leverage in getting his team's feet in the door...which is exactly the topic of this thread...and will help make their trip meaningful.

People can agree or disagree with what I've said, but I don't understand how anybody could say it is irrelevant and/or should not be discussed on this thread (nice rhyme eh? The Dr. Seuss of TVC!).

BTW another potential source of "off topic" leverage/reason why this deal may have been cut, is that "rule of law" is very important to many foreign investors, and any suggestion by Cameron and his FO that what is happening on Koh Tao may affect Foreign investment from the UK and other European countries may have had influence on the PM as well. The PM referred to the 20 questions he got from Cameron: maybe two of those questions were: 1) What would happen if you lost a significant amount of tourism revenues and foreign investment due to your reluctance to allow us to come to Thailand and assure transparency for our citizens, which would force us to take some action we really don't want to take? Do you think those losses would outweigh any political damage you may incur by allowing us in to assist/observe?

Another "off topic" reason behind the PMs change of heart in allowing the UK team in, which will impact the investigation and court case in the future and therefore justice for the victims and families, is the relationship between the military and the police. After the acrimony of last year, the PM wants and needs the police on his side now that he is running the government, which may explain why he threw his wholehearted support behind them at the beginning of the investigation and at the time of the arrests. But he may now be realizing (in part from info passed along by the Brits) that this may have left him exposed, and is second-guessing whether it was worth it.

Pure speculation I know, but it's as much of an educated guess as anything else we are reading here ... and as I explained earlier, entirely relevant to this thread. These are the kinds of considerations that hardcore diplomacy is made of, and ones that get results behind the scenes ... very unfortunately, "please do the right thing" is not.

PS Next time I'm going to attempt a one sentence post ... just to see if I have it in me

Edited October 19, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[boomerangutang]

The PM saying that Cameron was happy with the questions and answers, well, surely we need to know what the questions were.

it could be, "Do you mind if we send some DNA experts please?"..... Thai PM, "Yes ok"

etc etc etc

There won't even be such featherball Q's & A's. There are going to be heaps of things that UK 'observers' won't be able to broach. They'll learn in minutes not to press on the DNA trail. Similarly, no discussion will be allowed about the headman's family possible involvement.

A typical conversation will go something like this:

UK: "Have you taken a close look at.... (fill in the blanks)?"

THAI: "We've already looked at that. Here's what we found."

UK: "Ok, thanks, but there might be some other people worth questioning." OR "perhaps we could do a test for.... (fill in the blanks)"

THAI: "No need for that, because we already looked in to it."

UK: "OK, sorry for doubting you."

.....ad nauseum. As you can see, UK agents will get very stymied and frustrated within days, if not hours. Thais couldn't be happier, even if the UK agents pull out in a huff.

[transam]

If the UK does NOT get what they want it will later be reported as such....

It will mean the "hole" getting deeper for LOS, just hope LOS folk realise it....

[Globeman]

I'm really amazed at the reception of this news item - what the hell people - first REAL advancement to the story, and sign that the (social) media and requests/demandmends for transparency have been heard high up, and most of the comments go to Thai bashing and further conspiracy theories of how the case will evolve?

What the hell people... When WILL you be satisfied of the inquiry?

Are you looking for a specific outcome perhaps? Even if the investigators are ONLY allowed access to the evidence at hand, as it's still the only "concrete evidence" holding the case up(, and of which the sentencing will be based on), the processing of such evidence by a third party(the investigators) most certainly will moot a batch of issues already risen.

Sometimes I just don't get what people are after, but I'd like to know what the bashers are expecting of this...

I'll be satisfied with the investigation when they turn back the clock and conduct it properly from the outset. There is little potential for satisfaction in this case.

Sending in the UK officers now, while laudable, considering the diplomatic nightmare that the British government has to go through when they would rather conduct 'business as usual', is locking the barn door after the horse has bolted.

One "fact" I would like to see shot down - and UK investigators could do this - is the ridiculous notion that David Miller was beaten with the hoe, or some blunt object. The descriptions of his injuries have been pretty vague. If you see the leaked unblurred photos, Miller has several stab wounds (I compared them with some 'textbook' ones online) on his face and head. They are consistent with a short, wide bladed 'brass knuckle' knife (the nestles between its user's middle fingers). Whatever weapon caused them though, they are highly unlikely to have been caused by a hoe, unless the attacker hit him at exactly the same angle repeated ties in what was clearly a pretty frenzied assault - because the wounds are very consistent.

And also, apologies for getting gruesome, but in the unblurred photos of Hannah Witheridge, - which I don't recommend anyone looks at, as they are the stuff of nightmares - her face is destroyed like something out of a horror movie), that is what an attack from a hoe would look like. It is also consistent with extreme anger and hatred (and/or being hopped up on some form of speed), and an attacker who was already somewhat familiar with dispensing violence on others.

So let's see the UK officers start with this little discrepancy and then commence looking for the right weapon - the one used on David Miller - and who might have possessed such an item... and where it might be now. That would open a can of worms.

Doubtless this will get shot down by some of the clever barstool wags who haunt these forums, accusing me of playing at being Sherlock Holmes. But those who are tempted to do so might try reading a few books on similar crimes and how the FBI approached them - psychological profiles based on the nature of the crime, meticulous matching of weapons to wounds (including angles that can indicate left or right handedness, height of the attacker, the sort of struggle the victim put up, etc.) While some of the conclusions reached in such investigations require years of experience and training, many of them also come from pretty basic observations that even a 'civilian' is capable of making.

[Krenjai]

There won't even be such featherball Q's & A's. There are going to be heaps of things that UK 'observers' won't be able to broach. They'll learn in minutes not to press on the DNA trail. Similarly, no discussion will be allowed about the headman's family possible involvement.

A typical conversation will go something like this:

UK: "Have you taken a close look at.... (fill in the blanks)?"

THAI: "We've already looked at that. Here's what we found."

UK: "Ok, thanks, but there might be some other people worth questioning." OR "perhaps we could do a test for.... (fill in the blanks)"

THAI: "No need for that, because we already looked in to it."

UK: "OK, sorry for doubting you."

.....ad nauseum. As you can see, UK agents will get very stymied and frustrated within days, if not hours. Thais couldn't be happier, even if the UK agents pull out in a huff.

I agree it will probably go along these lines, and don't forget the UK investigators are now observers only, so they can only observe, they do not investigate. For example, the CCTV tapes from Bangkok will be shown, and as soon as the observers observe (or question) something out of the ordinary the RTP will brush it away as mentioned above.

I am convinced however this will make things worse for the RTP as we will hear all about it all over the Social Media which will Rock the RTP House. They will find this unpleasant, however, time will kill this, people will eventually lose interest, apart from a few maybe, but these will not be noticed over time. As soon has the Burmese have been convicted or committed suicide facing life in prison or death this will slowly die out and for Nomsod & The Gang the party can go on!

Edited October 19, 2014 by Krenjai

[Pattaya46]

[// however, time will kill this, people will eventually lose interest, //

They already did. Right now there is only 1 thread about this subject in the 20 first threads of the Thailand News forum. One week ago there were at least 5 or 6 such threads at the top of the list.

[transam]

[// however, time will kill this, people will eventually lose interest, //

They already did. Right now there is only 1 thread about this subject in the 20 first threads of the Thailand News forum. One week ago there were at least 5 or 6 such threads at the top of the list.

We are a waiting stuff............ ..........We are still here..............

[umbanda]

IF DNA testing was done in the UK from material from the victims bodies

IF UK Police is able to interview the suspects without any conditions

IF UK Police is able to take DNA material from the suspects to compare

IF ALL match...no doubts about ...

But.....if DNA do not match....will be interesting to see how the PM and the Police will deal with that....Veeeryyyyy interesting.

[allan michaud]

I'm really amazed at the reception of this news item - what the hell people - first REAL advancement to the story, and sign that the (social) media and requests/demandmends for transparency have been heard high up, and most of the comments go to Thai bashing and further conspiracy theories of how the case will evolve?

What the hell people... When WILL you be satisfied of the inquiry?

Are you looking for a specific outcome perhaps? Even if the investigators are ONLY allowed access to the evidence at hand, as it's still the only "concrete evidence" holding the case up(, and of which the sentencing will be based on), the processing of such evidence by a third party(the investigators) most certainly will moot a batch of issues already risen.

Sometimes I just don't get what people are after, but I'd like to know what the bashers are expecting of this... alt=rolleyes.gif>

I will accept the 2 Burmese did it if the British police say they are happy with the DNA match, nothing less. So far the General has said different things in the press here. For the summoning of the Thai rep in London, he said the rep went off his own back and was not summoned and today he is quoted as saying the UK Police will simply be observers, playing down any chance of them being allowed to be directly involved in the investigation. I don't see why you are so keen to jump the gun here and convict these kids after all the bull shit that has been spoken by the RTP so far.

[outsider]

I don't think the thai police have the brains to play this game with the British. They will shoot themselves in the foot with every answer they give, every excuse/piece of evidence they produce & they won't even know they've done it until the British inquest is complete.

I don't think the Thai police have the brains. You should have stopped just there... LOL

[docshock13]

In a previous post before the u-turn by PM Prayuth, I speculated the military govt might be trying to break ranks with the RTP. I see now my speculation may have been wishful thinking. Further, Mrs. Shock pointed me to an interview with Khun Sondhi in which he subtly explained the triumvirate controlling Thailand now (Prayuth, Prawit and Pol. Gen. Somyot). From what was explained to me of what Sondhi said, these three are in lock step and will not break ranks. So it appears that either the original report was mistaken or the PM and his two lieutenants had not yet coordinated a united position on Scotland Yard's role in the investigation.

[greenchair]

...but they already have two suspects, matching DNA AND confessions

You know what smart a---, we may not have all the facts. We may not have all the evidence. We might have made many mistakes. But we all know something 100%. We all know there is a square peg in a round hole.

[greenchair]

[// however, time will kill this, people will eventually lose interest, //

They already did. Right now there is only 1 thread about this subject in the 20 first threads of the Thailand News forum. One week ago there were at least 5 or 6 such threads at the top of the list.

We are a waiting stuff............ ..........We are still here..............

I'm here too with we.

[GAZZPA]

There's something I don't really understand about this.. If the Thai government and police are absolutely adamant that they have the right guys and that all the evidence proves this then they have nothing to fear.

It is not uncommon for Police in other countries to cooperate and lend a hand when necessary if they have a particular area of expertise. I am sure I heard that the US were assisting n some DNA samples early on in the investigation so the British Police helping should be no problem.

If there is a serious objection siting acts against sovereignty etc then it absolutely stinks and everyone will just believe the hype that its a cover up..

So, if they are really telling the truth, let the Brits help and get it all over with. (Unless of course it isn't true)

[manhood]

Well i understand the concern about the possibilities that will be given to UK Police......

and i hope this !!!!!! will be transparent and if there is not 100% support from thai side it should be published: then we know how transparent the whole action of the police was from the very beginning!!!!!!!!!! A nightmare !

How can somebody believe in a frai justice in this country!??!?

NOBODY can!

[boomerangutang]

If the UK does NOT get what they want it will later be reported as such....

It will mean the "hole" getting deeper for LOS, just hope LOS folk realise it....

IF DNA testing was done in the UK from material from the victims bodies

IF UK Police is able to interview the suspects without any conditions

IF UK Police is able to take DNA material from the suspects to compare

IF ALL match...no doubts about ...

But.....if DNA do not match....will be interesting to see how the PM and the Police will deal with that....Veeeryyyyy interesting.

First off, we don't know whether UK officials took DNA samples. Secondly, even if UK has reliable DNA from victim(s), it's not sure UK will take the dynamic action needed to counter Thai officialdom. This frame-up is becoming very important (to maintain) for Thai officialdom, all the way up to the top banana. It could become a career-buster.

If it comes down to a stand-off between UK officials wanting to do an honest investigation versus Thai police brass wanting to avoid going to inactive posts, ....Thai officialdom is going to prevail. Particularly now that the PM has limited the Brits to just being able to look over the shoulders of Thai officials. And the self-appointed PM did that grudgingly, because he knew if he allowed the Brits to do any real investigating (as the Thai PM originally promised Cameron), then such proper investigation would blow the whole case to smithereens, like the warship Maine sinking in Havana harbor.

A note about cooperation: I just read a true story about a group of British soldiers who got stuck trying to climb a very steep/deep canyon in Indonesia. As soon as the emergency became known, Indonesian cops and army (admitting they had no skills at mountain rescue), allowed British rescue teams to do everything possible to rescue the stranded climbers. The only condition, was: British experts had to take time to instruct Indonesian special forces - details about mountain rescue.

Compare that with the Ko Tao double murders: Thai cops can't even admit they've botched the investigation, and they won't allow Brits to do any independent investigating AND Thai cops act like they don't need anyone to show them how to improve their paucity of investigative skills.

[Tazwa]

Interest isn't waining. There are hundreds, even thousands watching, searching, and waiting.....This whole case will flare back to life again. Just wait and see.

[Chernsarmkhuat]

It would not be unheard of for the cops in a small town and some of the locals to be in cohorts, doing a little small time crime, protection rackets, drugs, scamming tourists etc, then one or two of the bosses kids commits a terrible crime and they all go out of their way to protect them. I doubt they will get any cooperation from the locals, the crime scene has already been botched beyond repair. The British police should prepare for the worst just in case, beware of two guys on a motorbike following them, careful what you eat, keep a guard at night, sleep with one eye open.

Then again maybe I have been watching too much, "Sons of Anarchy"

[wilcopops]

I'm really amazed at the reception of this news item - what the hell people - first REAL advancement to the story, and sign that the (social) media and requests/demandmends for transparency have been heard high up, and most of the comments go to Thai bashing and further conspiracy theories of how the case will evolve?

What the hell people... When WILL you be satisfied of the inquiry?

Are you looking for a specific outcome perhaps? Even if the investigators are ONLY allowed access to the evidence at hand, as it's still the only "concrete evidence" holding the case up(, and of which the sentencing will be based on), the processing of such evidence by a third party(the investigators) most certainly will moot a batch of issues already risen.

Sometimes I just don't get what people are after, but I'd like to know what the bashers are expecting of this... alt=rolleyes.gif>

I will accept the 2 Burmese did it if the British police say they are happy with the DNA match, nothing less. So far the General has said different things in the press here. For the summoning of the Thai rep in London, he said the rep went off his own back and was not summoned and today he is quoted as saying the UK Police will simply be observers, playing down any chance of them being allowed to be directly involved in the investigation. I don't see why you are so keen to jump the gun here and convict these kids after all the bull shit that has been spoken by the RTP so far.

From my perspective, it is really neither here nor there whether the "accused" are guilty or not.....the handling of the affair has rendered any trial suspect and flawed and perhaps more importantly has revealed to the world the shortcomings of both the Thai poise investigation procedures and the Thai legal system.

this reliance on DNA is of course practically irrelevant - DNA all over the the place doesn't mean they committed the crime - it means that they were there. DNA has to be collected correctly, sampled, tested and interpreted - I would think that the time for any of that is long gone......this is just a mistrial in progress.

[White Christmas13]

It would not be unheard of for the cops in a small town and some of the locals to be in cohorts, doing a little small time crime, protection rackets, drugs, scamming tourists etc, then one or two of the bosses kids commits a terrible crime and they all go out of their way to protect them. I doubt they will get any cooperation from the locals, the crime scene has already been botched beyond repair. The British police should prepare for the worst just in case, beware of two guys on a motorbike following them, careful what you eat, keep a guard at night, sleep with one eye open.

Then again maybe I have been watching too much, "Sons of Anarchy"

Perhaps the RTP should get in contact with Mike Tyson he knows how to solve crime

http://www.perthnow.com.au/video/id-E0YmE4cToRJetRUxAQznwzt9xGtRVj6f/Mike-Tyson-stars-in-new-cartoon-for-Adult-Swim-network

[Thaddeus]

If the UK does NOT get what they want it will later be reported as such....

It will mean the "hole" getting deeper for LOS, just hope LOS folk realise it....

IF DNA testing was done in the UK from material from the victims bodies

IF UK Police is able to interview the suspects without any conditions

IF UK Police is able to take DNA material from the suspects to compare

IF ALL match...no doubts about ...

But.....if DNA do not match....will be interesting to see how the PM and the Police will deal with that....Veeeryyyyy interesting.

First off, we don't know whether UK officials took DNA samples. Secondly, even if UK has reliable DNA from victim(s), it's not sure UK will take the dynamic action needed to counter Thai officialdom. This frame-up is becoming very important (to maintain) for Thai officialdom, all the way up to the top banana. It could become a career-buster.

If it comes down to a stand-off between UK officials wanting to do an honest investigation versus Thai police brass wanting to avoid going to inactive posts, ....Thai officialdom is going to prevail. Particularly now that the PM has limited the Brits to just being able to look over the shoulders of Thai officials. And the self-appointed PM did that grudgingly, because he knew if he allowed the Brits to do any real investigating (as the Thai PM originally promised Cameron), then such proper investigation would blow the whole case to smithereens, like the warship Maine sinking in Havana harbor.

A note about cooperation: I just read a true story about a group of British soldiers who got stuck trying to climb a very steep/deep canyon in Indonesia. As soon as the emergency became known, Indonesian cops and army (admitting they had no skills at mountain rescue), allowed British rescue teams to do everything possible to rescue the stranded climbers. The only condition, was: British experts had to take time to instruct Indonesian special forces - details about mountain rescue.

Compare that with the Ko Tao double murders: Thai cops can't even admit they've botched the investigation, and they won't allow Brits to do any independent investigating AND Thai cops act like they don't need anyone to show them how to improve their paucity of investigative skills.

Just the last bit.

The Thai cops are doing exactly what they were designed to do, protect the wealthy and influential, by persecuting the poor, and being rewarded for it.

They don't need any help with that.

The help they do need is how to stop it being so obvious, difficult in this day and age, and not something that the UK Police are well versed in either.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Thaddeus

[peterpaintpot]

Far too many speculative posts on the threads regarding these horrific murders, leave speculation to the BiB, and remember that it is the facts that are important not rumours and hearsay.

The following comment in a post is probably the most accurate comment I have read:

"Why would the British Police be even bothered making statements as to what they are doing / done. You need to remember they aren't like the BIB mouthing off all day trying to justify, correct, second guess every statement, idea or theory they have or would like to have."

The British police like most western forces keep their cards close to their chests, for obvious reasons, and their members are not self important idiots just seeking glory with their pictures splashed all over the media.

[ScubaPhuket]

Oh dear... MJP's not gonna like this

[MJP]

Right then. Please don't include the link to Andy Hall's fund raiser.

I know we want to, but we can't.

I'm sure Andy Hall is doing a great job of this by himself in any case.