Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

[draftvader]

OK, let's put an end to this craziness.

I have worked in security-related fields in Europe, including working alongside police forces. Never ever have I heard of police officers working undercover on foreign soil.

Western police forces are notoriously understaffed, and they have enough on their plates working on cases that actually took place in their own damn country. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did work undercover on a case that involved their own nationals abroad, they wouldn't be allowed to use whatever information they collected since it would have been gathered illegally. And to put the cherry on top, if police officers were found to be working undercover in a foreign country without the express permission of that country's government, they could be jailed.

In the present case, the only force that could be working undercover is MI6. Intelligence agencies typically provide their agents abroad with a diplomatic cover, which gives them immunity from prosecution. BUT MI6 would only take on a case where Britain's interests are in jeopardy. I doubt a mishandled murder investigation, no matter how tragic the case is, would warrant an undercover action. MI6 has definitely bigger fish to fry than this.

Whilst your statement is very likely true when it comes down to Her Majesty's finest what you are forgetting is the freelance intelligence businesses that have representation all over the world. I have a good friend who speaks fluent Thai and Parsi (work that out). Lovely guy from Michigan. When he was last here this unsuspecting guy, who could drink 99% under the table and remain very aware and friendly, kept going to embassy parties. I really couldn't work it out and used to joke that he was CIA. He finally told me that he wasn't CIA or any US government employee but working for an independent contractor who supplied a myriad of agencies. None of his work was that "sexy" but he just kept a general level of information flowing back from his conversations at these "events" he kept attending. There are plenty of these agencies and it wouldn't be difficult, or that costly, to pay for them to head to the islands to drink in a bar and just pay attention. "Dumb Farang, can't speak Thai..."

There are indeed private firms that deal in intelligence gathering. However, there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for any branch of the British government to send undercover agents or to hire private firms to do undercover work.

While this is a truly tragic case, this has nothing to do with Britain's national security or with the defense of the country's interests. If it was, say, a terrorism-related case, things would of course be entirely different.

We should also remember that we live in Thailand, where this case has been on the news for weeks now. For expats here, and especially for Brits, this is of course a big deal. However, for your average folk in, say, Brighton, this is a murder that took place in an exotic country far away from home and it is nothing more than one tragedy among many others reported daily by the press.

Not so sure. PM fronting another "PM" at an international conference? That might be enough. Whilst the British government looked slow to react you have to know that they would want to be sure of "something" before making a public statement about it. A couple of £1,000s to be sure?

Whilst we can't be sure anything like this happened it is, perhaps, a little strong to say "absolutely no reason" when there are possible reasons to invest in intelligence.

BTW, what's your excuse for being up this early? Mine's a snoring wife and daughter

[wilcopops]

After Russia, Britain is the only European country in the top ten off visitor numbers to Thailand, with the best part of a million visitors per year. For Thailand to treat this crime without regard to the concerns of the British could prove a costly mistake for a country where tourism is already down over 10% on the year on year figures ....and this when initially an increase was hoped for.

Italy has already fallen out with Thailand over the murder of their journalist and the EU is still not 100% in favour of the new regime....this is just the kind of thing that Thailand doesn't need right now.

If all British visitors decided to stay away (highly unlikely) the difference in Thailands GDP would be something like 0.2-0.3%

About 1 million of 20 million visitors. - tourism represents about 7 to 10 % of GDP

You also have to work out the per capita spending of visitors.

).2 to .03 % of GDP also represents a lot of jobs

Then there is the money they spend going to other countries instead, and the spin-off affect that loosing tourists has on the image/reputation of a country.

If UK visitors drop off than other EL visitors and other Europeans may follow too and those sectors of the tourist trade geared up for European or English-speaking visitors will suffer disproportionately as well..

There has already been a 10% drop in tourist arrivals yearn year, I'd say the last thing Thailand needs is further bad PR.

If this argument got any worse you may even see the FO giving negative advise on their web site to those intending to visit Thailand. It is clear from the plethora of inane dictums by the TAT and other authorities that the Thai authorities are very concerned about the state of tourism at present. Travel agents are report in up to 43% drops in cutovers and are making pleas to the government to do something to ease the situation.

.2 to .03 % of GDP also represents a lot of jobs

so I'd say - yes, they are concerned and it would have a effect.

Edited October 18, 2014 by wilcopops

[Norvabc]

Run Nomsod run....

Thus far still just words.. Keep at them people.... You local islanders out there who truly know what happened keep e-mailing and spreading the word. Here's your chance.

There's plenty more that needs looking into. We should start a list.

Firstly all the missing CCTV footage.

Everybody's phone records that day. No doubt Nomsod used his FROM THE ISLAND.

Keep them coming people that's just a start..

Add to the List what the workers that ran back to Burma after the murder, they have been posting some interesting details so my wife tells me. Pointing to Nomsod.

[Johnsen]

I think most people believe its him. Thai authorities have gone to a lot of trouble to set up an alibi for him. Like I said elsewhere it only takes 1 photo, 1 piece of leaked phone evidence, 1 piece of leaked CCTV footage to blow his alibi out of the water. If you were the Thai authorities and you were fabricating his alibi you would b shittttting yourself this might happen. Someone out there must have proof.

Guess it could b time to fight fire with fire if money can buy you anything. Perhaps someone is prepared to give him up for the right amount. Alternatively if someone's business is destroyed through lack of tourism they might just speak out. The chances of the real killers being caught are very slim. Anybody know what phone company he uses. That one would b the killer for him/them.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. Posts containing links to Bangkok Post have been removed as well.

[Maejo Man]

What's the bet the court case will proceed asap so they can convict them before the UK detectives get their visas approved.

UK citizens are members of G7, they are Visa exempt, they do NOT need a Visa for the first 30 days....

The Royal Thai embassy in london will already have been instructed to issue them with open official/diplomatic visas.

[louse1953]

The UK police are well aware of this site, they will also be aware of the game being played.

Im satisfied that for the moment it looks like DNA will be getting a second look by professionals.

Best news about the case progressing since that tragic day.

5555,quote from The Yard,"after examining well known armchair detective site,TVF,we will investigate further.Members may meet us in the Lounge,to enlighten us."Don't expect pronouncements from the Yard for months,maybe when the are back in Blighty.

[TTom911]

OK, let's put an end to this craziness.

I have worked in security-related fields in Europe, including working alongside police forces. Never ever have I heard of police officers working undercover on foreign soil.

Western police forces are notoriously understaffed, and they have enough on their plates working on cases that actually took place in their own damn country. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did work undercover on a case that involved their own nationals abroad, they wouldn't be allowed to use whatever information they collected since it would have been gathered illegally. And to put the cherry on top, if police officers were found to be working undercover in a foreign country without the express permission of that country's government, they could be jailed.

In the present case, the only force that could be working undercover is MI6. Intelligence agencies typically provide their agents abroad with a diplomatic cover, which gives them immunity from prosecution. BUT MI6 would only take on a case where Britain's interests are in jeopardy. I doubt a mishandled murder investigation, no matter how tragic the case is, would warrant an undercover action. MI6 has definitely bigger fish to fry than this.

unfortunately SO true !

[steven100]

So hopefully this will uncover the cover-up that one suspects has hampered investigations right from the start. It is my belief that these two young men from Myanmar did not commit this murderous crime and that the islands headman and/or his son may know more than they are telling.

How will the mafia of the island feel now .... ?

[Bleacher Bum East]

I second that englishoak. We need to be on this forum for the right reasons. Please let's have some faith at the moment that things are moving in the right and proper direction. For those wishing to discuss a potential downfall for Thailand and the tourist industry, it would be better for a new discussion post to be enabled.

Last night a member named JOC replied in a post that if all British tourists stayed away from Thailand it would "only" cause a drop of .2-.3% of Thailand's GDP, implying that nobody in Thailand would notice or care.

I replied that this is actually a very significant number, especially if it is caused entirely by the fallout from one incident on one small island. And I backed my claim up by researching and reporting exactly what these numbers would represent: 13-20% of this year's entire GDP growth in Thailand, and $800-1.2 billion in lost GDP.

There were a couple of comments that soon followed saying that this was "way off topic" ... I totally disagree and had intended to explain why this morning, but I see that my post has now been removed, I assume for being "off topic".

Let me explain to you why I think this subject is completely on topic, as well as absolutely germane to whether Hannah and David and their families will see the murderers caught and punished and justice done.

• The title of the OP is "Thailand agrees to British police help over murders"
• The fact that Thailand is allowing British investigators into Thailand, whether it is to "investigate" or "observe" could have a huge impact on this case
• The question of what internal and external forces caused the the Thai PM to allow British investigators in despite the public objections of his senior police officers is both interesting and hugely important to the case
• As much as we all wish that the sole motivating factor and concern for people in authority in Thailand, the UK and Myanmar is simply to do the right thing, find the killers and see justice done, the reality is that is just not the case
• People in authority on all sides are weighing and balancing all kinds of factors in deciding what to do, possibly even in considering whether to pursue the real killers
• These factors include the buzz on social media such as TVC, CSI LA, and many other Thai sites; Thai and international news coverage; pressure from the UK and Myanmar governments; the petition handed to the UK govt. calling for an independent investigation; the loss of respect and standing in the international community . . . and yes, the potential for a huge amount of lost tourism revenue and the resulting impact on the Thai economy!
• This potential for lost tourism revenue is one of the primary levers that Cameron and the British government had in "persuading" the Thai government to allow their investigators in, and will have going forward in making sure their trip here is meaningful ... and debating how large (I say) or small (JOC says) an amount of leverage this provides is exactly related to the topic of this thread.
• And I guarantee that this was one of the primary factors in the PM's mind when he decided to shift gears and allow the UK investigators to come to Thailand.
• I believe some of his advisers severely miscalculated at the beginning of this investigation and when the Burmese suspects were arrested: they believed that the best way not to lose these tourism revenues (as evidenced by all of the public statements regarding "image" and tourism) was to quickly catch and charge somebody, anybody, to put this quickly behind them
• But because of the outrage that followed, both in Thailand and internationally, the PM now realizes (hopefully) that he was ill advised, and that their initial approach may result in what they wanted to avoid happening actually happening
• I'm sure his course reversal occurred for a number of reasons, but the impact on the Thai economy that this is having now, and could mushroom into in the future, was a major factor for sure
• So while I could sit here and write a book (in addition to the one I just wrote above ) about the actual investigation that has taken place both inside and outside of Thailand which would satisfy your personal notions of "relevance", I also wanted to drive home the potential impact of loss of tourism, which is a major factor in the key govt. players' assessment and dealings with the investigation.

And it is Totally Relevant to the Topic on this Thread!!!

Edited October 19, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[harrry]

I'm sorry if this comes across in anyway insensitive, but I cannot understand how the police force of a foreign country can be involved in ANY way in an investigation in Thailand. This is not a third world country. If this horrible event had happened in say AU, I cannot imagine the Australian govt saying to UK government "your welcome to give us a hand...."

There are Australian Police working in Thailand this very minute. If you go into a building near Airport Plaza in Chiangmai you will see familiar Australian Uniforms. I believe they work on Human Trafficing and Drug affairs. I understand there are also US and probably other police working in Thailand on similar subjects.

[alfalfa19]

I guess you just swallow whole whatever the rtp and the thai government say? Do you also believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny because, when you were young, somebody told you they exist? Confessions made under duress (torture) mean absolutely nothing. DNA evidence in this case is highly suspect, as it could have been planted or destroyed.

[metisdead]

Discussion of Thailand agrees to British police help on the investigation of the murders on Koh Tao is on-topic to this thread, while discussion of the effects to the tourist industry and GDP is another topic altogether. Perhaps there is another Koh Tao topic already running where the discussion of the effects to the tourism industry and the GDP would be closer to the topic at hand.

[Johnsen]

BBEast 10/10 for your effort and explanation and I wish it were true. Put simply it won't effect the people of Thailand at all.... Nada, zilch nothing... There are several reasons, one being that human nature is what it is. People will forget and return to Thailand. Unfortunately you are only quoting British numbers. How many non English speaking nations due you think know about this incident. Then ask yourself what percentage of Russian and Chinese citizens have ever travelled abroad. Go find out.... Then ask yourself if these minimal figures were to easily double how much damage to tourism would b done here. I wish you were right but your not. Thailand is indestructible and will be proven again to be long after this is over. They know it and have known it for a very long time. Failing that the islands elite make much of their cash by exploiting migrant workers. Those workers will never stop coming. I hate writing this and I hope your right and I'm wrong, but this merry go round that is Thailand is impossible to get off. Of course only time will tell as it already has done in the past.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Johnsen

[Oziex1]

If the PM of Thailand is to take on board the "advice" from the Brit PM then I think Namsod and Co are toast.

This is the Thai PM entering world politics playing with the big boys and if he's clever then KT influentials are about to find out they are truly a bunch of nobodies

How will this unfold now?

[bongoz]

"Details of the agreement were yet to be worked out, but would involve "close coordination" between Thai authorities and the British Embassy in Bangkok, Col. Weerachon Sukondhapatipak, the deputy spokesman of Thailand's Army, said."

From ABC Australia

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-18/british-police-to-join-thai-investigation-into-tourist-murders/5824552

[jpeg]

^^ Lovely innit? It's like a never ending summer this year. The first Indian Winter is being predicted by some.

It's Indian SUMMER

[rethaier]

I'm really amazed at the reception of this news item - what the hell people - first REAL advancement to the story, and sign that the (social) media and requests/demandmends for transparency have been heard high up, and most of the comments go to Thai bashing and further conspiracy theories of how the case will evolve?

What the hell people... When WILL you be satisfied of the inquiry?

Are you looking for a specific outcome perhaps? Even if the investigators are ONLY allowed access to the evidence at hand, as it's still the only "concrete evidence" holding the case up(, and of which the sentencing will be based on), the processing of such evidence by a third party(the investigators) most certainly will moot a batch of issues already risen.

Sometimes I just don't get what people are after, but I'd like to know what the bashers are expecting of this...

Well I for one would expect that all ORIGINAL samples are allowed examination. Then allow the UK police to take their own DNA samples from the men to compare with those I would assume have been collected in the UK. That is, as long as Hannah's body was not sanitized before it left Thailand.

[jpeg]

and it Is absurd to suggest that reality doesn't apply inside the country.

Oh you're wrong, so very very wrong ...

[phuketandsee]

A very old and good friend of mine, now retired from the Special Branch, says whether or not the British police have undercovers here, for sure there is a police liaison officer at the embassy. Hard to imagine he/she has been ignoring this case.

[heyexile]

A very old and good friend of mine, now retired from the Special Branch, says whether or not the British police have undercovers here, for sure there is a police liaison officer at the embassy. Hard to imagine he/she has been ignoring this case.

Agreed. "Liaison officer(s)" .Plus Uk has many reasons to have agents from various agencies already on the ground in TH. eg terrorism in the south, narcotics, human trafficking, monitoring military coups in SE Asia and their new alliances etc.

I believe it is not unheard of for FCO and Brit Pol to request assistance from their `spookier` compatriots.

[HughJass]

I think most people believe its him. Thai authorities have gone to a lot of trouble to set up an alibi for him. Like I said elsewhere it only takes 1 photo, 1 piece of leaked phone evidence, 1 piece of leaked CCTV footage to blow his alibi out of the water. If you were the Thai authorities and you were fabricating his alibi you would b shittttting yourself this might happen. Someone out there must have proof.

Guess it could b time to fight fire with fire if money can buy you anything. Perhaps someone is prepared to give him up for the right amount. Alternatively if someone's business is destroyed through lack of tourism they might just speak out. The chances of the real killers being caught are very slim. Anybody know what phone company he uses. That one would b the killer for him/them.

I am convinced that it is the "protected one" shaking Davids hand at 0.34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2B0_L-qUKQ&feature=player_detailpage

Edited October 19, 2014 by HughJass

[dieseldave1951]

me too what a posterior

Did it ever occur to some of you lot that these guys are as guilty as sin and there has been no fit up?

If the Thai were to hinder the British Police from doing a proper investigation as been suggested they won't be too long in letting the world know about it.

To me all the Doubting Thomas's have achieved by slagging the RTP at every chance is to blacken the name and do further damage of the country most of you live in.

These guys were paraded in front of the public rinacted the crime for all to see and not one chirp out of them.

How stupid are you people. Put yourself in their place.

If you were innocent and knew you were facing the death penalty would you not shout patsy at the first chance you got?

So what if you got a beating later for crying out......according to them they had been beaten already.

Not until their lawyers came on board did we hear about beating..........the only possible defense they have.

Of course they are going to say they confessed under duress but could it possibly be that's what they were told to say ?

Of course the were beaten but it couldn't have been that's what they were told to say now could it?

IMVHO The lawyers are depending on public opinion to try and get these guys off and you lot are playing right into their hands.

I sincerely hope the British Police do get full access and back up the RTP and they throw everything the doubting Thomas's have said straight back in their faces.

It's a bad day in hell when a Prime Minister of any country is forced into a situation like this because idiots believe that every single policeman in Thailand is bent to such a degree

Common sense should tell you no top policeman with half a brain is going to put his head on the chopping block in a high porfile case like this with the Army looing over their shoulder

What do you think would happen to those if Prayut found out these boys had been stitched up?

I was going to comment on this post, but I really can't be ar*sed. Tanlic you are delusional...

[akc1956]

I think the findings of the British police will have to be authorised by British government before being released but the government won't have the balls to tell Thailand what the police and the government have done.

[socksy01]

What complete and utter s*@#e. They will never be given access to all the alleged evidence and any findings they uncover will be swept under the carpet to prevent any ambarrasment to the so-called original enquiry or to further damage bad publicity for tourism.

[Oziex1]

What complete and utter s*@#e. They will never be given access to all the alleged evidence and any findings they uncover will be swept under the carpet to prevent any ambarrasment to the so-called original enquiry or to further damage bad publicity for tourism.

The only thing that is not going to damage their tourism or image is honesty, there is a serious lack of it from Thai officials.

[poweratradio]

OK, let's put an end to this craziness.

I have worked in security-related fields in Europe, including working alongside police forces. Never ever have I heard of police officers working undercover on foreign soil.

Western police forces are notoriously understaffed, and they have enough on their plates working on cases that actually took place in their own damn country. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did work undercover on a case that involved their own nationals abroad, they wouldn't be allowed to use whatever information they collected since it would have been gathered illegally. And to put the cherry on top, if police officers were found to be working undercover in a foreign country without the express permission of that country's government, they could be jailed.

In the present case, the only force that could be working undercover is MI6. Intelligence agencies typically provide their agents abroad with a diplomatic cover, which gives them immunity from prosecution. BUT MI6 would only take on a case where Britain's interests are in jeopardy. I doubt a mishandled murder investigation, no matter how tragic the case is, would warrant an undercover action. MI6 has definitely bigger fish to fry than this.

Whilst your statement is very likely true when it comes down to Her Majesty's finest what you are forgetting is the freelance intelligence businesses that have representation all over the world. I have a good friend who speaks fluent Thai and Parsi (work that out). Lovely guy from Michigan. When he was last here this unsuspecting guy, who could drink 99% under the table and remain very aware and friendly, kept going to embassy parties. I really couldn't work it out and used to joke that he was CIA. He finally told me that he wasn't CIA or any US government employee but working for an independent contractor who supplied a myriad of agencies. None of his work was that "sexy" but he just kept a general level of information flowing back from his conversations at these "events" he kept attending. There are plenty of these agencies and it wouldn't be difficult, or that costly, to pay for them to head to the islands to drink in a bar and just pay attention. "Dumb Farang, can't speak Thai..."

I can't imagine they're going to get the access they require but rather be "hand held" around the evidence. Still they will know it is happening and be able to come back and tell their story!

How can a second opinion on the DNA evidence be of any value now after it could have been garnered from the scapegoats prior and placed.

If that is the case then the UK coroner's office is well aware. The amount of evidence that a decent pathologist can get from a body is outstanding. That evidence would be unbelievably damning and it would certainly be in the PMs armory already.

To much television cop shows for you. Go to your room and think about what your saying and then perhaps you can have some supper but not until you smarten up young man.

[Dogmatix]

I presume this is an attempto defuse the situation without giving any real concessions. The Welsh police who came out twice to assist Thai police in the investigation into the rape and murder of Kirsty Jones were stonewalled by Thai police and could not do their jobs effectively. The Saudis have got nowhere in investigating and pursuing justice for the murders of their nationals and recently withdrew their charge d'affairs again when one of the alleged murderers was appointed to the NLA. Thailand has put up a total ban on exporting labour to Saudi and a permanent downgrade in diploatic relations rather deliver justice for the murdered Saudis, not to mention the failure to return the most valuable pieces of the stolen jewellery.

Another issue is that the Thai police investigation is already finished and the case is with the prosecutor. Thai police may just tell their British counterparts that there is no more investigation for them to observe but they can attend the court hearings once every two or three months and spend the rest of their time on the beaches and in the bars and massage parlours.

What may be critical though is the extent to which British police are able and willing to investigate the evidence they have in the UK, incluing interviewing witnesses and, of course, verifying the DNA test results. If Thai police are as confident as they claim in their work, they should absolutely welcome British police confirming their findings and boosting their credibility.

[hobz]

...but they already have two suspects, matching DNA AND confessions

They also have confession from Martians about who killed JFK.

[hobz]

Uk police should compare their dna samples with those of the scapegoats parent. They should be able to do that without setting foot on Thailand.

If they dont have their own dna samples from the victims bodies all their work will be pointless anyway.