UK cops 'to only observe'

[sustento]

The numbers are also not percentages but number of incidents. Why the first crime list is 108 (Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving)

If you look at the table you will see that the x axis is labelled 'Overall detection rate (%).

[JohnThailandJohn]

This is about trying to get these kids real murderers brought to justice, not a stage for your own petty bias or troll point scoring.

You people whining about UK police credibility with a murder solving record at home of about 95% ? we are talking about the RTP compared to the UK police and your trolling here the UK police are a bad idea ?

Seriously what TF is the matter with you people ? You should be ashamed considering the crimes in question...

While I don't think anyone would not believe a first world nation has better resources than a less developed nation or specifically the UK has better resources than Thailand ... you are not even close with your 95% guess and the UK police are far from perfect.

Overall less than 50% of reported crimes in the UK are solved ( http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/269715/50-of-crimes-are-unsolved ). While the UK doesn't seem keen on making the murder clearance rate public, the last time it was brought up years ago they said it was around 70% and many reports indicate the clearance rate has continued to go down since then.

In the US about 60% of murders are solved.

So, the point here being and what others have tried to state is the UK and all police forces are far from perfect and all have corruption, all fail at times, all cover-up things and it is extremely common for cases to go unsolved.

In fact in a poll earlier this year it stated MOST Britts believe their is a culture of cover-ups within their police. http://news.sky.com/story/1196380/police-cover-up-wrongdoing-most-britons-say

JTJ this has absolutely nothing to do with these murders,

You brought it up, not me. I was just responding.

I am not so ignorant to believe UK authorities would get involved in an investigation in another country where the local police don't need their expertise and where the crime that has already been solved to the point of police presenting it to the court would require UK assistance.

Police officers (and politicians) are corrupt all over the world (including the UK) and in some place more than others. If you want to think the UK are the best (least corrupt) and most technology advanced then more power to you but it makes no difference as this crime didn't happen in the UK and nobody needs or has asked the UK for help.

Edited October 19, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[JohnThailandJohn]

The numbers are also not percentages but number of incidents. Why the first crime list is 108 (Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving)

If you look at the table you will see that the x axis is labelled 'Overall detection rate (%).

Got it but has absolutely nothing to do with showing the number of murders solved. It is all about detection and how they defined detection and why I guess there could be a 108% detection rate of a particular crime.

[Exsexyman]

*Edited*

What he should be doing is shirt fronting him in front of the world by upping travel warnings to Thailand and forcing insurance premiums up so people won't travel there until the British people get satisfactory answers and assurances that the investigation is above board and free of interference .

So Stuttering Parrot, if you live in Thailand will you be setting an example and leaving forthwith? Also the 27 other people who liked your post, will those who live in Thailand be down the travel agents in the morning booking a one way ticket out of here? Or are they hypocrites?

[sustento]

The numbers are also not percentages but number of incidents. Why the first crime list is 108 (Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving)

If you look at the table you will see that the x axis is labelled 'Overall detection rate (%).

Got it but has absolutely nothing to do with showing the number of murders solved. It is all about detection and how they defined detection and why I guess there could be a 108% detection rate of a particular crime.

Please re-read post 484. They define detections to mean that someone has been charged - not simply that a crime has been reported.

"Previous detections bulletins have focused on sanction detections; that is formal sanctions where the

offender is charged or summonsed, cautioned, reprimanded or given a final warning. "

"This bulletin has a wider focus on overall detections to reflect the greater range of detection methods

available to the police over the last two years. Overall detections consist of the sanction detections

outlined above (which still make up the vast majority of detections, 94% in 2012/13) and non-sanction

detections. The latter comprise detections where the offence is counted as cleared up but either no

further action was taken against the offender or the matter has been resolved by the use of a locally

based community resolution or the application of Restorative Justice (RJ) techniques. "

[englishoak]

This is about trying to get these kids real murderers brought to justice, not a stage for your own petty bias or troll point scoring.

You people whining about UK police credibility with a murder solving record at home of about 95% ? we are talking about the RTP compared to the UK police and your trolling here the UK police are a bad idea ?

Seriously what TF is the matter with you people ? You should be ashamed considering the crimes in question...

While I don't think anyone would not believe a first world nation has better resources than a less developed nation or specifically the UK has better resources than Thailand ... you are not even close with your 95% guess and the UK police are far from perfect.

Overall less than 50% of reported crimes in the UK are solved ( http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/269715/50-of-crimes-are-unsolved ). While the UK doesn't seem keen on making the murder clearance rate public, the last time it was brought up years ago they said it was around 70% and many reports indicate the clearance rate has continued to go down since then.

In the US about 60% of murders are solved.

So, the point here being and what others have tried to state is the UK and all police forces are far from perfect and all have corruption, all fail at times, all cover-up things and it is extremely common for cases to go unsolved.

In fact in a poll earlier this year it stated MOST Britts believe their is a culture of cover-ups within their police. http://news.sky.com/story/1196380/police-cover-up-wrongdoing-most-britons-say

JTJ this has absolutely nothing to do with these murders,

You brought it up, not me. I was just responding.

I am not so ignorant to believe UK authorities would get involved in an investigation in another country where the local police don't need their expertise and where the crime that has already been solved to the point of police presenting it to the court would require UK assistance.

Police officers (and politicians) are corrupt all over the world (including the UK) and in some place more than others. If you want to think the UK are the best (least corrupt) and most technology advanced then more power to you but it makes no difference as this crime didn't happen in the UK and nobody needs or has asked the UK for help.

No you brought it up along with others,

If your going to quote me I insist you do it in full as per the forum rules not cherry pick lines to suit yourself...

I also wrote

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

I also take exception you trying to lump UK police in with the RTP in terms of corruption and ability... frankly its an insane analogy.

Heres the facts you cant handle,

The RTP have been found wanting from day 1 and have got no better right up to now.

Social media and people around the world called BS and DID something.

The British gov has heard and got involved.

UK police are on their way and WILL be involved.

The U turns BS and lies coming out of Thailand has been seen, been heard and finally been dismissed as not good enough.

Now because there are real experts on their way you have to resort to trying to claim the UK police are no better.... hmmmm ridiculous.

There has actually been real positive developments towards real justice in this case and you seem gutted its happening, resentful even.

Why is that... ?

So heres a simple question for you.... what nationality are you ?

So come on name that police force in my challenge and answer my question to why you are so anti assistance ? and finally...

what nationality are you ?

im waiting

[JohnThailandJohn]

While I don't think anyone would not believe a first world nation has better resources than a less developed nation or specifically the UK has better resources than Thailand ... you are not even close with your 95% guess and the UK police are far from perfect.

Overall less than 50% of reported crimes in the UK are solved ( http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/269715/50-of-crimes-are-unsolved ). While the UK doesn't seem keen on making the murder clearance rate public, the last time it was brought up years ago they said it was around 70% and many reports indicate the clearance rate has continued to go down since then.

In the US about 60% of murders are solved.

So, the point here being and what others have tried to state is the UK and all police forces are far from perfect and all have corruption, all fail at times, all cover-up things and it is extremely common for cases to go unsolved.

In fact in a poll earlier this year it stated MOST Britts believe their is a culture of cover-ups within their police. http://news.sky.com/story/1196380/police-cover-up-wrongdoing-most-britons-say

JTJ this has absolutely nothing to do with these murders,

You brought it up, not me. I was just responding.

I am not so ignorant to believe UK authorities would get involved in an investigation in another country where the local police don't need their expertise and where the crime that has already been solved to the point of police presenting it to the court would require UK assistance.

Police officers (and politicians) are corrupt all over the world (including the UK) and in some place more than others. If you want to think the UK are the best (least corrupt) and most technology advanced then more power to you but it makes no difference as this crime didn't happen in the UK and nobody needs or has asked the UK for help.

No you brought it up along with others,

If your going to quote me I insist you do it in full as per the forum rules not cherry pick lines to suit yourself...

You can insist all you want but not going to quote a big rambling (which we all do sometimes) when I only am responding to is a part ... this is called forum etiquette.

As I said, I was only responding to your post as I have to others where I made my thoughts known in that it is nonsense to believe UK authorities would get involved in an investigation like this when there help is not requested or needed.

So it is a moot point that the UK is less corrupt or their Police are better equipped, paid, experienced or whatever but was just pointing out it is silly to believe they are anywhere near being without problems or corruption.

[englishoak]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

[JohnThailandJohn]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

You say the case is not about this and that I was the one who brought this up but you continue to beat a dead horse about something irrelevant. I could care less which police force is the world is the least corrupt or gets the most convictions or is the best dressed. And for sure it has absolutely nothing to do with these murders which occurred in Thailand ... no other police force needs to come investigate and won't be asked to because the suspects have been caught, evidence presented and accepted by the prosecution and now it goes to the courts where the defense will have the opportunity to put on a defense and challenge evidence and police procedures while conducting their own tests and investigations if they choose or if these two admitted murdering rapists don't plead guilty.

[ScubaPhuket]

I find that if you stick your tongue out of one side of your mouth & put one finger up your nose while reading one of JTJ's posts out loud they make a lot more sense.

[Gweiloman]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

You say the case is not about this and that I was the one who brought this up but you continue to beat a dead horse about something irrelevant. I could care less which police force is the world is the least corrupt or gets the most convictions or is the best dressed. And for sure it has absolutely nothing to do with these murders which occurred in Thailand ... no other police force needs to come investigate and won't be asked to because the suspects have been caught, evidence presented and accepted by the prosecution and now it goes to the courts where the defense will have the opportunity to put on a defense and challenge evidence and police procedures while conducting their own tests and investigations if they choose or if these two admitted murdering rapists don't plead guilty.

JTJ,

Why are you so afraid of telling us your nationality? This is after all, an anonymous internet forum. Why are you being so evasive?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Detection rates and crimes being solved are the same thing as far as the report is concerned.

Although I believe this is just a way to count to make the government look good,I will admit that I was wrong in my understanding of what they meant by "detection" and how they were using it, or at least wanting the reader to believe, it means solved.

As I said, I have seen no recent stats but did see news reports it was close ti 90% around 2000 but then fell to 70% in 2007 but these covered the last decade and believe they excluded the most recent year since it would be unfair to call a homicide unsolved as a final stage that recently occurred. This too is why I find the report mentioned odd as the report originally published just two months after the years it covered.

Then I also see a note saying "Note: Offences detected in 2012/13 may have been initially recorded in an earlier year and for this reason some percentages

may exceed 100." This makes no sense if you are trying to figure out percentage of unsolved crimes. So if 20 crimes are detected (solved???) this year but only 10 of those types of crimes are committed this year then there would be a 200% case solved rate.

But again, I took the word detection to mean reported as opposed to meaning solved but this report clearly is not giving a real stat on percentage of unsolved homicides in the UK, especially over any period to show a trend but it does seem it could be higher than the 70% I have read despite older articles like this showing London not solving 80% of crimes (all) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tens-of-thousands-of-cctv-cameras-yet-80-of-crime-unsolved-6684359.html

[JohnThailandJohn]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

You say the case is not about this and that I was the one who brought this up but you continue to beat a dead horse about something irrelevant. I could care less which police force is the world is the least corrupt or gets the most convictions or is the best dressed. And for sure it has absolutely nothing to do with these murders which occurred in Thailand ... no other police force needs to come investigate and won't be asked to because the suspects have been caught, evidence presented and accepted by the prosecution and now it goes to the courts where the defense will have the opportunity to put on a defense and challenge evidence and police procedures while conducting their own tests and investigations if they choose or if these two admitted murdering rapists don't plead guilty.

JTJ,

Why are you so afraid of telling us your nationality? This is after all, an anonymous internet forum. Why are you being so evasive?

Because people who assume idiotic things such as I am afraid usually have idiotic intentions as well as the simple fact unless you are some kind of ignorant bigot that likes to draw idiotic conclusions based on somebody;s color or origin then it is an idiotic question.

And if you had any sense at all you would can easily figure out my nationality by things I have said just in this thread but also the numerous other threads where I clearly state where I am from.

[Gweiloman]

This is only my second post on the KT atrocity (first post above).

I'm neither Thai nor British so I do not have any personal interest in the matter. However, I would like to see justice done. I believe the majority (if not all, with a few notable exceptions) of TV posters would like to see justice done. I believe also that the majority of TV posters (and a lot of Thais that I have spoken to) feel that the RTP has not conducted a professional investigation and that there is the possibility that they have the wrong suspects. It would seem that the British Govt feel the same way, hence the request to provide assistance or observance, as the case may be.

What I don't understand is why some posters, JTJ, Tanlic, jdinasia plus a few less vocal ones, are so willing to believe that the RTP have conducted a professional investigation and have apprehended, beyond reasonable doubt, the culprits responsible. Even so, wouldn't it be logical then to have this investigation verified accordingly by a respected police force? (and let's face it guys, for all their shortcomings, the British police force is well respected at the end of the day).

Could it be that these posters have some sort of a vested interest in avoiding the truth to surface?

Edited October 19, 2014 by Gweiloman

[sustento]

Detection rates and crimes being solved are the same thing as far as the report is concerned.

Although I believe this is just a way to count to make the government look good,I will admit that I was wrong in my understanding of what they meant by "detection" and how they were using it, or at least wanting the reader to believe, it means solved.

As I said, I have seen no recent stats but did see news reports it was close ti 90% around 2000 but then fell to 70% in 2007 but these covered the last decade and believe they excluded the most recent year since it would be unfair to call a homicide unsolved as a final stage that recently occurred. This too is why I find the report mentioned odd as the report originally published just two months after the years it covered.

Then I also see a note saying "Note: Offences detected in 2012/13 may have been initially recorded in an earlier year and for this reason some percentages

may exceed 100." This makes no sense if you are trying to figure out percentage of unsolved crimes. So if 20 crimes are detected (solved???) this year but only 10 of those types of crimes are committed this year then there would be a 200% case solved rate.

But again, I took the word detection to mean reported as opposed to meaning solved but this report clearly is not giving a real stat on percentage of unsolved homicides in the UK, especially over any period to show a trend but it does seem it could be higher than the 70% I have read despite older articles like this showing London not solving 80% of crimes (all) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tens-of-thousands-of-cctv-cameras-yet-80-of-crime-unsolved-6684359.html

"3.3 DETECTIONS

Detected crimes are those that have been ‘cleared up’ by the police. "

Section 3.3 in this document.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116226/user-guide-crime-statistics.pdf

Murders have a very high clear up rate in England and Wales.

The Standard article is about the comparative clear-up rate of all crimes in London boroughs depending on the number of CCTVs they have. It has nothing whatever to do with murder clear-up rates.

I have nothing further to add to this thread as we've already veered off topic and I now believe that you are just being argumentative for the sake of it.

[Gweiloman]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

You say the case is not about this and that I was the one who brought this up but you continue to beat a dead horse about something irrelevant. I could care less which police force is the world is the least corrupt or gets the most convictions or is the best dressed. And for sure it has absolutely nothing to do with these murders which occurred in Thailand ... no other police force needs to come investigate and won't be asked to because the suspects have been caught, evidence presented and accepted by the prosecution and now it goes to the courts where the defense will have the opportunity to put on a defense and challenge evidence and police procedures while conducting their own tests and investigations if they choose or if these two admitted murdering rapists don't plead guilty.

JTJ,

Why are you so afraid of telling us your nationality? This is after all, an anonymous internet forum. Why are you being so evasive?

Because people who assume idiotic things such as I am afraid usually have idiotic intentions as well as the simple fact unless you are some kind of ignorant bigot that likes to draw idiotic conclusions based on somebody;s color or origin then it is an idiotic question.

And if you had any sense at all you would can easily figure out my nationality by things I have said just in this thread but also the numerous other threads where I clearly state where I am from.

I could figure out your nationality by things that you have said - but that would be merely an assumption based on my own prejudices and bias

Numerous other thread where you have clearly stated your nationality - except that (like some other posters) I either cannot remember or have not read your other postings.

Why is it so difficult to just say, I am American / Argentinian / Bolivian / Belgian / Chinese / Canadian / Danish / Dutch / English / Ecuadorian / French / Finnish / German / Ghanaian / Hungarian / Haitian / Indian / Indonesian / Japanese / Javanese / Kuwaiti / Korean etc etc etc?

Yet you bother to reply to my post with another evasive response. You do not do your credibility any justice.

[retsdon]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

You say the case is not about this and that I was the one who brought this up but you continue to beat a dead horse about something irrelevant. I could care less which police force is the world is the least corrupt or gets the most convictions or is the best dressed. And for sure it has absolutely nothing to do with these murders which occurred in Thailand ... no other police force needs to come investigate and won't be asked to because the suspects have been caught, evidence presented and accepted by the prosecution and now it goes to the courts where the defense will have the opportunity to put on a defense and challenge evidence and police procedures while conducting their own tests and investigations if they choose or if these two admitted murdering rapists don't plead guilty.

All irrelevant. This case has been, and will continue to be, of international interest. Questions about it have been raised at the highest diplomatic levels. At some point Scotland Yard will make a report. Should that report question or condemn the RTPs investigation practices, raise doubts about the evidence, or indicate that the RTP have been obstructive or evasive, the reputation of the RTP and Thailand in general will suffer very badly indeed. It's not a question anymore of just being able to bounce this case through to a guilty verdict for the suspects currently charged. The game has changed. The case now has to be seen to be above board. Whether the suspects are found guilty or not is, from the perspecive of Thailand's standing and reputation, irrelevant unless those suspects would have been found guilty by the lights of international best practice. A kangaroo court won't cut it anymore.

[JohnThailandJohn]

What I don't understand is why some posters, JTJ, Tanlic, jdinasia plus a few less vocal ones, are so willing to believe that the RTP have conducted a professional investigation and have apprehended, beyond reasonable doubt, the culprits responsible. Even so, wouldn't it be logical then to have this investigation verified accordingly by a respected police force? (and let's face it guys, for all their shortcomings, the British police force is well respected at the end of the day).

Could it be that these posters have some sort of a vested interest in avoiding the truth to surface?

Who has said the RTP have conducted a professional investigation? Who has said they have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt already? Lets also overlook the fact that so many posters here are so vocal in shouting hang em high in other cases suspects are arrested for horrible crimes by Thai police including the Train murdering rapist where the case also had mistakes, press also reported conflicting statements, suspect also ended up confessing under pressure and whose friend testified against him and whose DNA matched.

Simply believing these two admitted murdering rapists whose DNA has matched are the right people to be bringing to court is a far cry from saying police did perfect or are not corrupt.

Vested interest? .... Yea, we have all placed bets on the outcome of the trial in an underground pool with Police, Mafia, Universities, doctors and all the others involved in the conspiracy and we think by coming on to Thai Visa and pointing out how nutty some are being with conspiracy theories and spouting BS as fact that somehow this will influence the trial.

No Vested interest which is probably apparent given the lack of emotion in our posts, unlike many other conspiracy folks and their hate filled posts of wishing to see Thailand suffer. I could care less how the outcome effects anyone but simply wanted to see the right suspects arrested and brought to court. There is always doubt even after convictions but don't see anything reasonable telling me these admitted murdering rapists whose DNA matched and who were seen around the crime scene at the time of the murders and who had a possession of one of the victim's at their place are not the right guys to stand trial.

[MJP]

What I don't understand is why some posters, JTJ, Tanlic, jdinasia plus a few less vocal ones, are so willing to believe that the RTP have conducted a professional investigation and have apprehended, beyond reasonable doubt, the culprits responsible. Even so, wouldn't it be logical then to have this investigation verified accordingly by a respected police force? (and let's face it guys, for all their shortcomings, the British police force is well respected at the end of the day).

Could it be that these posters have some sort of a vested interest in avoiding the truth to surface?

Who has said the RTP have conducted a professional investigation? Who has said they have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt already? Lets also overlook the fact that so many posters here are so vocal in shouting hang em high in other cases suspects are arrested for horrible crimes by Thai police including the Train murdering rapist where the case also had mistakes, press also reported conflicting statements, suspect also ended up confessing under pressure and whose friend testified against him and whose DNA matched.

Simply believing these two admitted murdering rapists whose DNA has matched are the right people to be bringing to court is a far cry from saying police did perfect or are not corrupt.

Vested interest? .... Yea, we have all placed bets on the outcome of the trial in an underground pool with Police, Mafia, Universities, doctors and all the others involved in the conspiracy and we think by coming on to Thai Visa and pointing out how nutty some are being with conspiracy theories and spouting BS as fact that somehow this will influence the trial.

No Vested interest which is probably apparent given the lack of emotion in our posts, unlike many other conspiracy folks and their hate filled posts of wishing to see Thailand suffer. I could care less how the outcome effects anyone but simply wanted to see the right suspects arrested and brought to court. There is always doubt even after convictions but don't see anything reasonable telling me these admitted murdering rapists whose DNA matched and who were seen around the crime scene at the time of the murders and who had a possession of one of the victim's at their place are not the right guys to stand trial.

John, why do you think there is so much doubt in the minds of the public regarding this case?

Edited October 19, 2014 by MJP

[JohnThailandJohn]

I repeat my questions you still wont answer...

I challenge you to go find a more professional police force in the world.

​What nationality are you ?

PS ok fine if you wont quote me in full i have no option but to report you for refusing to follow forum rules.

You say the case is not about this and that I was the one who brought this up but you continue to beat a dead horse about something irrelevant. I could care less which police force is the world is the least corrupt or gets the most convictions or is the best dressed. And for sure it has absolutely nothing to do with these murders which occurred in Thailand ... no other police force needs to come investigate and won't be asked to because the suspects have been caught, evidence presented and accepted by the prosecution and now it goes to the courts where the defense will have the opportunity to put on a defense and challenge evidence and police procedures while conducting their own tests and investigations if they choose or if these two admitted murdering rapists don't plead guilty.

All irrelevant. This case has been, and will continue to be, of international interest. Questions about it have been raised at the highest diplomatic levels. At some point Scotland Yard will make a report. Should that report question or condemn the RTPs investigation practices, raise doubts about the evidence, or indicate that the RTP have been obstructive or evasive, the reputation of the RTP and Thailand in general will suffer very badly indeed. It's not a question anymore of just being able to bounce this case through to a guilty verdict for the suspects currently charged. The game has changed. The case now has to be seen to be above board. Whether the suspects are found guilty or not is, from the perspecive of Thailand's standing and reputation, irrelevant unless those suspects would have been found guilty by the lights of international best practice. A kangaroo court won't cut it anymore.

Please tell us how Thailand will suffer very bad? Thailand's reputation is not going to change and has not since the incident. Only a fool would not be aware Thailand is a less developed country where things are not handled like they are in the west. And despite a conviction or not or what Scotland yard thinks the beaches will still be hear as will the women and the tourists.

Now if Ebola starts to pop up or their is more political unrest then Thailand will hurt but police corruption, murder, strangeness and the rest has been going on in Thailand for a very long time and it gets national attention sometimes too.

Try to step back and be realistic instead of emotionally or believing the UK is going to do anything to purposely harm Thailand over this case. There would have to be a HUGE turn of events for that to happen and NOTHING has come remotely close to such a thing even though it has been reported in the UK these two were tortured and set-up.

[foxteen]

Nothing will change with UK cops in Thailand and as far as the Thai police knows they have the murderers

[ScubaPhuket]

Nothing will change with UK cops in Thailand and as far as the Thai police knows they have the murderers

Seems these people are quite happy to live in a communist country with no human rights, routine police torture, extreme poverty & no system of justice.

Maybe they should be left to their own devices.

[MJP]

Nothing will change with UK cops in Thailand and as far as the Thai police knows they have the murderers

Seems these people are quite happy to live in a communist country with no human rights, routine police torture, extreme poverty & no system of justice.

Maybe they should be left to their own devices.

Oh, Britain's not that bad really.

[JohnThailandJohn]

John, why do you think there is so much doubt in the minds of the public regarding this case?

First have to go back ...

Some police office came out early on and made some comment about a Thai not being able to do this and had to be a foreigner. My guess is he made this comment because he had heard about the blond hair and decided to use this as a chance to show some faux Thai Superiority. Despite reason, idiotic comment.

That is what started it all. Even when Police were questioning the farang friend with cut(s) people were screaming cover-up. Any unless you are completely ignorant about these things, the friend would have been the likely initial suspect anywhere.

Why did that start it all ... Because it screamed of an intent to cover things up and from this moment people because even more emotionally about an already horrific event as well as the unfairness in society when it comes to police and the have and have nots in Thailand. Once people get emotional, logic stops working.

So, people now convinced there will be a cover-up but why? Well must be a rich Thai involved. Now we got more emotion because of how some rich / powerful people in Thailand have gotten off with slaps on wrist for what a poor Thai would being doing time for.

As I said, once the cop or official made that statement (which I never saw - would love a link if you have one) about it not being a Thai and/or being a foreigner, people smelled cover-up and became emotional (outraged) to the point of even screaming cover up when they got did right by questioning the friend.

Then to take the cake, it turned out the suspects arrested who confessed and DNA matched were indeed not Thai or especially a rich local from the island.

Then what killed any hope of some people coming back to reality was the whole idiotic ill conceived and illogical phone conspiracy that went viral (regarding this cas) on Facebook and of course turned out to be nonsense. But too late, people already were to far gone down this road and just doubled down with more nutty conspiracies.

But there is underlying issues that made all this conspiracy stuff possible ...

The underlying feeling and anger of Thais regarding the have and have nots as well as the dislike and distrust of police . Without this, none of this conspiracy stuff would have taken hold in this case as it doesn't it most despite the ignorant comment early on.

Then you have many of the posters here who for years have shown anger and contempt towards Thais and Thailand and can't even control themselves from making nasty condemning and bigoted comments when a positive story is posted here. There posts not just now but for many years show not just an anger towards Thailand but a clear want and desire to see Thailand suffer and always wishing and predicting for this to come.

It is interesting though with the farang side of things at least, these people screaming here about a cover-up and acting outraged at torture are often the same ones who talk of cutting off molester's penis who have been arrested (not convicted) by Thai Police and talk of doing horrible things to others just arrested by Thai police including the Train murderer and rapist of the little girl despite all the similarities between the two cases. These people;s thoughts and posts are dictated by emotion and not logic.

Lastly, you also have the insecure folks who simply feel good being part of a group even if it is a conspiracy group.

[Gweiloman]

What I don't understand is why some posters, JTJ, Tanlic, jdinasia plus a few less vocal ones, are so willing to believe that the RTP have conducted a professional investigation and have apprehended, beyond reasonable doubt, the culprits responsible. Even so, wouldn't it be logical then to have this investigation verified accordingly by a respected police force? (and let's face it guys, for all their shortcomings, the British police force is well respected at the end of the day).

Could it be that these posters have some sort of a vested interest in avoiding the truth to surface?

Who has said the RTP have conducted a professional investigation? Who has said they have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt already? Lets also overlook the fact that so many posters here are so vocal in shouting hang em high in other cases suspects are arrested for horrible crimes by Thai police including the Train murdering rapist where the case also had mistakes, press also reported conflicting statements, suspect also ended up confessing under pressure and whose friend testified against him and whose DNA matched.

Simply believing these two admitted murdering rapists whose DNA has matched are the right people to be bringing to court is a far cry from saying police did perfect or are not corrupt.

Vested interest? .... Yea, we have all placed bets on the outcome of the trial in an underground pool with Police, Mafia, Universities, doctors and all the others involved in the conspiracy and we think by coming on to Thai Visa and pointing out how nutty some are being with conspiracy theories and spouting BS as fact that somehow this will influence the trial.

No Vested interest which is probably apparent given the lack of emotion in our posts, unlike many other conspiracy folks and their hate filled posts of wishing to see Thailand suffer. I could care less how the outcome effects anyone but simply wanted to see the right suspects arrested and brought to court. There is always doubt even after convictions but don't see anything reasonable telling me these admitted murdering rapists whose DNA matched and who were seen around the crime scene at the time of the murders and who had a possession of one of the victim's at their place are not the right guys to stand trial.

All I will say is that you have come out strongly and vehemently against the involvement of the British police in this case. Not only do you seem to object to their involvement, you have taken great pains to point out their shortcomings as a defense as to why they would not be beneficial to the investigation.

This is what I don't understand. Any normal and moral person would want the real culprits to be apprehended and brought to trial. However, you have stated clearly in some of your previous posts that you are fully satisfied with the "evidence" provided and you have concluded in your own mind that the two Burmese workers are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, on the basis of the DNA "match" and their "confessions".

Not only do you seem incapable of accepting that there could be a possible cover up (something that has been KNOWN time and again to have occurred in Thailand), you go as far as to ridicule others who are pointing to that possibility.

That leaves me with no other possible conclusion other than that of a "vested interest" (because the alternative is too insulting to contemplate).

[ScubaPhuket]

There's a job waiting for you in the UK should you ever wish to visit.

Keeping the windows on the sunshine coaches clean.

Edited October 19, 2014 by ScubaPhuket

[JohnThailandJohn]

What I don't understand is why some posters, JTJ, Tanlic, jdinasia plus a few less vocal ones, are so willing to believe that the RTP have conducted a professional investigation and have apprehended, beyond reasonable doubt, the culprits responsible. Even so, wouldn't it be logical then to have this investigation verified accordingly by a respected police force? (and let's face it guys, for all their shortcomings, the British police force is well respected at the end of the day).

Could it be that these posters have some sort of a vested interest in avoiding the truth to surface?

Who has said the RTP have conducted a professional investigation? Who has said they have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt already? Lets also overlook the fact that so many posters here are so vocal in shouting hang em high in other cases suspects are arrested for horrible crimes by Thai police including the Train murdering rapist where the case also had mistakes, press also reported conflicting statements, suspect also ended up confessing under pressure and whose friend testified against him and whose DNA matched.

Simply believing these two admitted murdering rapists whose DNA has matched are the right people to be bringing to court is a far cry from saying police did perfect or are not corrupt.

Vested interest? .... Yea, we have all placed bets on the outcome of the trial in an underground pool with Police, Mafia, Universities, doctors and all the others involved in the conspiracy and we think by coming on to Thai Visa and pointing out how nutty some are being with conspiracy theories and spouting BS as fact that somehow this will influence the trial.

No Vested interest which is probably apparent given the lack of emotion in our posts, unlike many other conspiracy folks and their hate filled posts of wishing to see Thailand suffer. I could care less how the outcome effects anyone but simply wanted to see the right suspects arrested and brought to court. There is always doubt even after convictions but don't see anything reasonable telling me these admitted murdering rapists whose DNA matched and who were seen around the crime scene at the time of the murders and who had a possession of one of the victim's at their place are not the right guys to stand trial.

All I will say is that you have come out strongly and vehemently against the involvement of the British police in this case.

I stopped reading after the first sentence because you are being dishonest as I have not come out against the British police involvement and certainly not vehemently.

What I have been clear in saying is it would not make sense given the way things work in the world and that people are being unrealistic in thinking that the UK would be asked or even request to be involved in this Thai investigation. A Sovereign State would not invite another country to investigate a crime in their country unless they needed help to solve it (Thailand has got assistance from groups like the FBI in the past when needed) or had some preexisting agreement and the same goes for the other country requesting or demanding to be part of the investigation ... not going to happen unless the one country was looking to hurt relationships with the other. And despite the importance to some people to see that happen, I highly doubt the UK wants that to happen. In fact, a demand by the UK would not just hurt relations with Thailand but many other country;s would be outraged.

As for the UK taking part in the investigation or checking DNA and so on. It wouldn't matter anyway to just about any disbeliever here unless it showed the Thais wrong. Anything short of that there will just create more conspiracy theories.

I am simply realistic and Pro letting the case go to court and letting the defense have the opportunity to do their job and whatever tests or investigations they want with whatever investigators they want ... and even doubt the UK would offer their services for free to the defense as this would be a political time bomb to help defend those accused and admitted rapists and murders of UK Citizens.

But again to be realistic, it is likely these two, with the help of their lawyers, will be pleading guilty and trying to avoid the death penalty and have a good chance of seeing freedom again. The worst thing they can do is challenge the DNA and plead not guilty if it is a match.

Edited October 19, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[JohnThailandJohn]

Ridiculous to suggest Thailand has something to hide because they are protecting their Sovereignty and doing what any other country would do if they are capable of solving a criminal case on their own.

It is worse than saying somebody must be guilty because they refuse to talk to police, who are accusing them of a crime, without giving up their right to have a lawyer present.

While people do talk to police without attorneys, often with bad results for them, a country doesn't give up their Sovereignty to rule themselves just because some people (especially from another country) want them to.

Evidence and the case and defense of criminal cases should be handled in a court of law, not tried in the court of public opinion.

Edited October 19, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[kaobang]

Ridiculous to suggest Thailand has something to hide because they are protecting their Sovereignty and doing what any other country would do if they are capable of solving a criminal case on their own.

It is like saying somebody must be guilty because they refuse to talk to police accusing them of a crime without giving up their right to have a lawyer present.

pics of suspects on the crime scene

pics of influential politician with suspects

1 milion baht reward smelling like an incentive to cover evidence

ridicolous statements as "thais cant commit a gruesome crime like this"

and much more

not sure they are capable of solving this criminal case

not sure they are motivated to solve this criminal case

Edited October 19, 2014 by kaobang

[outboard]

The truth about all police is that their only function is to collect evidence for the prosecution. That is all police in every country, sending cops from Britain to assist/observe/oversee/investigate is a PR exercise, they will assist the Thai police making their case. anyone that trusts the police in any country to do anything other then collect evidence for the prosecution does not understand the function of police.