British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[NeverSure]

Why don't the Burmese give their DNA to the British Police and ask them to send it back to Britain for analysis... Easy.

Do we know that the Brits were able do get the rapists' DNA from Hannah's cavities?

One poster posted the rules for repatriation which included embalming. Would that destroy the DNA?

Were the Thais able to sanitize the body?

Have the Brits ever commented on whether they have DNA from the perps?

Who would trust supposed perp DNA provided by Thai police?

[Heisenberg01]

Cant understand anyone that thinks there is the slightest chance of this DNA test 2morrow making the slightest bit of difference.

Not a chance on earth would they be doing this if there was any danger of a match with him.

More likely that the first lot of DNA from the Burmese was sent to the labs as the suspect one so hey presto second ones a match., and the real evidence is at the bottom of the drink between Tao and Samui.

No one screams louder than an indignant Thai who wants the world to know he is in the right when he is deemed to be in the wrong.

Thats all 2morrow is, face for the top Banana, even though noone will believe it for a minute, he will feel respect has been gained.

[IslandLover]

JLCrab, on 28 Oct 2014 - 10:43, said:

100,000 people signed the change.org petition -- the official UK epetition has currently 9 verified signatures.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/70308

As I have said there is established UK procedure for instigating an investigation which is not dependent upon or influenced by petitions or public request.

I'm not so sure that the change.org petition had as much influence with the British govenment as everyone seems to think. It helped of course, but I don't think the British government would have had got this involved in the case on the strength of the petition alone. I think they know something that has not yet been revealed, possibly from the statements of Hannah and David's travelling companions. Of course, that is only part of it. The other issue is the allegations of torture by the Burmese suspects.

[Johnsen]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

[Bleacher Bum East]

Why don't the Burmese give their DNA to the British Police and ask them to send it back to Britain for analysis... Easy.

Do we know that the Brits were able do get the rapists' DNA from Hannah's cavities?

One poster posted the rules for repatriation which included embalming. Would that destroy the DNA?

Were the Thais able to sanitize the body?

Have the Brits ever commented on whether they have DNA from the perps?

Who would trust supposed perp DNA provided by Thai police?

We don't know if the UK investigators were able to get DNA from anywhere on Hannah or David's bodies.

From what I have read, it would be very difficult to remove all DNA left on a body, especially if there were large samples such as semen. And if somebody tried to sanitize a body to remove any traces of DNA, it would be very obvious to an experienced forensic investigator.

The normal rules for transporting a body on a commercial flight do appear to require embalming.

From what I have read, it would be very difficult to get useful DNA from an embalmed body. I don't know if it would be impossible for UK investigators, who I assume have state of the art forensic capabilities.

However, it was reported that British embassy staff came to the The Institute of Forensic Medicine at the Police General Hospital in Bangkok at the time the autopsies were performed there, and on Sept. 17 British embassy staff arranged for the release of Hannah and David's bodies for transport back to England.

Given that level of involvement by British embassy staff and the high profile nature of this case, my opinion is that there's a strong possibility that they arranged for the bodies to be transported without embalming so they could perform their own full autopsy back in England.

The British government and investigators have not made any comment at all regarding the results of their ongoing investigation. So nobody outside of the British government (with the possible exception of some in the Thai government at this point) knows whether they have DNA taken of the victim's bodies, taken from the accused Burmese men, or from anywhere else.

My guess is that if they do have DNA from Hannah's body, they also have the DNA of the accused men that they can test it against.

The bottom line thought is that I have no idea what DNA evidence the British team has, and neither does anybody else. But my guess---and I emphasize guess---is that they have something significant, or they never would have escalated this to the level of a summons of the top Thai diplomat, a public discussion involving Cameron, and sending their own team to Thailand.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[JLCrab]

JLCrab, on 28 Oct 2014 - 10:43, said:

100,000 people signed the change.org petition -- the official UK epetition has currently 9 verified signatures.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/70308

As I have said there is established UK procedure for instigating an investigation which is not dependent upon or influenced by petitions or public request.

I'm not so sure that the change.org petition had as much influence with the British govenment as everyone seems to think. It helped of course, but I don't think the British government would have had got this involved in the case on the strength of the petition alone. I think they know something that has not yet been revealed, possibly from the statements of Hannah and David's travelling companions. Of course, that is only part of it. The other issue is the allegations of torture by the Burmese suspects.

Per 2012 FCO and UK Police Chiefs MOU it is standard operating procedure to investigate the murder of a UK national abroad when:

Relatives request UK police to assist in establishing the circumstances of the death of a British national. This often arises where the family are dissatisfied with the investigation overseas, and seek advice in respect of best practice in murder investigation.

It is important to remember here that UK Police have no power to conduct investigations overseas and the primacy of the relevant country must be respected;

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

It does not require social media or the UK to be in possession of any materials that might pertain to the investigation carried out by the country in which the murder occurred. This is also most likely why a homicide officer from Norfolk was one of the original UK investigating team.

Edited October 28, 2014 by JLCrab

[IslandLover]

JLCrab, on 29 Oct 2014 - 00:30, said:

IslandLover, on 29 Oct 2014 - 00:15, said:

JLCrab, on 28 Oct 2014 - 10:43, said:JLCrab, on 28 Oct 2014 - 10:43, said:

100,000 people signed the change.org petition -- the official UK epetition has currently 9 verified signatures.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/70308

As I have said there is established UK procedure for instigating an investigation which is not dependent upon or influenced by petitions or public request.

I'm not so sure that the change.org petition had as much influence with the British govenment as everyone seems to think. It helped of course, but I don't think the British government would have had got this involved in the case on the strength of the petition alone. I think they know something that has not yet been revealed, possibly from the statements of Hannah and David's travelling companions. Of course, that is only part of it. The other issue is the allegations of torture by the Burmese suspects.

Per 2012 FCO and UK Police Chiefs MOU it is standard operating procedure to investigate the murder of a UK national abroad when:

Relatives request UK police to assist in establishing the circumstances of the death of a British national. This often arises where the family are dissatisfied with the investigation overseas, and seek advice in respect of best practice in murder investigation.

It is important to remember here that UK Police have no power to conduct investigations overseas and the primacy of the relevant country must be respected;

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

It does not require social media or the UK to be in possession of any materials that might pertain to the investigation carried out by the country in which the murder occurred. This is also most likely why a homicide officer from Norfolk was one of the original UK investigating team.

I believe it is standard practice to send police from the deceased's home area (in this case, Hannah's). It also applied in the Kirsty Jones case. I also understand that said police will have to report to the coroner, who will be Norfolk based.

However, since Scotland Yard is also involved, there must be a serious reason for that.

FYI the British police are not influenced by social media but they do research it for possible leads. They also rely on informants.

It has been made perfectly clear already "that It is important to remember here that UK Police have no power to conduct investigations overseas and the primacy of the relevant country must be respected". It's what happens when they get back to the U.K. that is going to be important.

[minikev]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

We can't have it all ways. We have all been asking (well apart from all the J's) that he take a very public DNA test to put him at the scene or clear him.

If it is done transparently and it clears him then in my book he is clear of been at the crime scene.

[minikev]

i cant link anything from Bangkokpost news but yes its on the website

the ac bar owners son will give his dna in front of journalists

I can't find anything saying he will take a DNA test where did you find it please?

[Rykbanlor]

My gf just heard on the Thai news that the headman's son will give DNA tomorrow. Has anyone heard this ?

Maybe this is because the Brits are asking for his DNA. If he accepts it now and DNA doesnt match , all the thai bashers in here will not believe it anyway .

Not a question about Thai-bashing, but about not trusting the incompetent and corrupt Thai police!!

Exactly. I'm a little tired of the Thai-bashing line.

And before the pedants who say that the 'thai-bashers' or 'conspiracy theorists' will just ignore the DNA results get started, I would like to make it clear that I have viewed the whole DNA business as useless and no doubt messed up since the start. My post history will confirm.

[Johnsen]

That's probably why he is agreeing, if in fact he is, to submit to a DNA test. I agree the DNA is probably useless now. What we need to remember is he would not do a test when it potentially was not useless. He refused point blank.. His alibi was he was in Bangkok so no need to test. Flimsy CCTV still photo to back this up that has been shown up to very questionable. They could always simply release the complete video footage. I don't believe that footage exists therefore that's not an option. They would have done that by now. Latest CCTV footage released from the island to shows him have interaction with David putting him there. The point to all this is if he stands by his alibi why is he suddenly doing a test. My question to him would be were you not in Bangkok so why are you doing the test. His answer to prove I did not rape or murder her. My next question. Just release the video footage from your apartment in bangkok that will suffice. His answer uhmmmmm .............. Can't do that there isn't any. When it was important to test he didn't. Now he won't even stand by his alibi of being in Bangkok. That right there stinks to high heaven. Let's get both and make a bird of it. DNA test and video footage pls.

[boomerangutang]

Can I ask this.......even IF the British found different evidence what can they do with it?

After reading and trying to educate myself with foreign laws I believe there is nothing they can do?

You're probably mostly right. The Thai PM emphasized the phrase 'observers only' and didn't want to use the phrase 'assist in the investigation'. He purposefully wants to restrict what the UK experts can do. If that doesn't go hand in hand with 'frame-up' I don't know what does.

Boomerangutang's responses in maroon color......

I think the Thai police have boxed themselves in a corner now. The media is not going away and neither will the UK police or the Myanmar embassy.

Myanmar officials might fade before UK officials, but neither are going to press too hard for justice. Diplomatic relations have higher priorities, such as trade deals and economic issues.

The days of easy confessions and abuse of immigrants is coming to a close. As are the days of rich Thais flaunting the law with impunity. ...we hope

Let's not forget at the end of this are two dead young British tourists and some sick and violent psychopaths. Get this crime solved please....and properly.

YES.

My gf just heard on the Thai news that the headman's son will give DNA tomorrow. Has anyone heard this ?

DNA won't be credible unless verified by outside non-Thai labs.

[boomerangutang]

Why don't the Burmese give their DNA to the British Police and ask them to send it back to Britain for analysis... Easy.

We, Jill and Joe Public, don't really know if the Brits independently took DNA samples from the victims. If so, great, but until it's announced, we don't know.

[boomerangutang]

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My gf just heard on the Thai news that the headman's son will give DNA tomorrow. Has anyone heard this ?

Now that gone be an interesting point in time for the TV conspiracy theorist.

No wait.............he must have finally found a way to modify his DNA alt=whistling.gif>

He doesn't need to by now.

This puddle is deep and the waters are muddy.

I think that he thinks the time to protect/protest his innocence is now.

I think he protests too much.

And it is far too late.

Who's going to take his dna sample, Thai officials? With all the twists and turns in this case thus far, and the profound eagerness of Thai officialdom to shield the headman's family and friends, it wouldn't surprise if there was another twist.

A swab on the inside of the cheek: How difficult would it be for the kid to put someone else's (gf or friend) used chewing gum on the inside of his cheek for the swab? It may sound silly, but if you're facing a life in prison or the death penalty, you might do something quirky like that.

[jpeg]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

Exactly, BtB, about them "being aroused" from 60 meters and that's why the brutally gang-raped and bashed her face to a pulp. That contention was one of the first big groaners by the RTP that I read.

JLC you've posted too much waste-of-my-time BS. Good example of the wild hypothesising going on which is NOT trying to expiate the Burmese guys (plenty trying to as well). I'm giving your posts the skip-over from now on.

I've had this preposterous poster on Ignore for a while now but unfortunately his posts still show up in nested quotes. Dear god what is he on These two little Burmese midgets were sex starved and had at them. Ever spent any time with Burmese? The Thais could learn a thing or two re manners and civility from them. Absurd

[Artisi]

Here is something to think about, I am not sure if it has been established that Hannah was in fact raped and if she wasn't it is possible the son is well aware of this fact, or they (father / son) are being advised by contacts in the BIB of this fact. Under taking a DNA test now is just part of an on going game.

[ParadiseLost]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

The checks you describe may well have been done, but excluded from the case as they help the wrong side...

Consider the presence of a third DNA trace, confirmed by a police pathologist - on national TV. But not part of the case...

Also, still no explanation how Gen Panya could confirm seeing cctv evidence one day but deny it the next...

I don't believe anything the RTP say now. This is more third world than Africa.

[mcm991]

Too many circular arguments.

If you want to ascertain the whereabouts of Jr. on the night in question ...... get hold of his mobile phone data.

If he made or received any calls at all during any time of 'interest' the data will be there.

Originating number.

Time of call.

Length of call.

and crutially......

the cell location of both parties . This will establish his whereabouts to a few hundres metres... assuming the phone was in his pocket.

moreover, because Jr. has a few bucks, he probably had a decent phone...... which handshakes data every few minutes ..... the locations of the cell can be narrowed down to a very specific location for any time period of interest.

just sayin........

[JLCrab]

Some guy offered a hypothetical MOTIVE for the the guy/s who lost face; I offered a hypothetical motive for the 2 in custody. Easy. You want to put on ignore for that go right ahead.

BTW from The Sting:

Hooker: I gave him the breakout just like you said.

Gondorff: And?

Hooker: 'S good. He threatened to kill me.

Gondorff: Hell, kid, they don't do that, you know you're not getting to 'em.

Edited October 29, 2014 by JLCrab

[mcm991]

just to add to my previous post... without giving away any state secrets.....

if you have a smart phone with location services enabled.........

it is like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs behind you.

You can be tracked to within a few cm of your location on an ongoing basis. (this is not the same data as cell data)

I'm assuming that people that should know this information do in fact know it.

[boomerangutang]

Here is something to think about, I am not sure if it has been established that Hannah was in fact raped and if she wasn't it is possible the son is well aware of this fact, or they (father / son) are being advised by contacts in the BIB of this fact. Under taking a DNA test now is just part of an on going game.

If it were to emerge that Nomsod's sperm was in the victim, no problem. He could just have his lawyer say he had consenting sex with her, and then left. Then the Burmese guys must have showed up later and bludgeoned her, or whatever. Headman's family and friends still have a lot of aces up their sleeves. Any evidence pointing at them will be easily rebuffed because Thai officialdom is so eager to shield them from guilt.

Another way out for the headman's people: they can say, "because the DNA trail has been bolloxed by inept handling, that DNA can't be a determining factor." Pow, let off the hook again. I can almost hear Nomsod and his buddies celebrating, "Alright, where's the next party - I heard there are a bunch of really cute farang chicks there - let's go have some fun!"

[Jip99]

Here is something to think about, I am not sure if it has been established that Hannah was in fact raped and if she wasn't it is possible the son is well aware of this fact, or they (father / son) are being advised by contacts in the BIB of this fact. Under taking a DNA test now is just part of an on going game.

If it were to emerge that Nomsod's sperm was in the victim, no problem. He could just have his lawyer say he had consenting sex with her, and then left. Then the Burmese guys must have showed up later and bludgeoned her, or whatever. Headman's family and friends still have a lot of aces up their sleeves. Any evidence pointing at them will be easily rebuffed because Thai officialdom is so eager to shield them from guilt.

Another way out for the headman's people: they can say, "because the DNA trail has been bolloxed by inept handling, that DNA can't be a determining factor." Pow, let off the hook again. I can almost hear Nomsod and his buddies celebrating, "Alright, where's the next party - I heard there are a bunch of really cute farang chicks there - let's go have some fun!"

I take some comfort from the fact that Hannah's parents are not Thai Visa members.

[harrry]

Here is something to think about, I am not sure if it has been established that Hannah was in fact raped and if she wasn't it is possible the son is well aware of this fact, or they (father / son) are being advised by contacts in the BIB of this fact. Under taking a DNA test now is just part of an on going game.

If it were to emerge that Nomsod's sperm was in the victim, no problem. He could just have his lawyer say he had consenting sex with her, and then left. Then the Burmese guys must have showed up later and bludgeoned her, or whatever. Headman's family and friends still have a lot of aces up their sleeves. Any evidence pointing at them will be easily rebuffed because Thai officialdom is so eager to shield them from guilt.

Another way out for the headman's people: they can say, "because the DNA trail has been bolloxed by inept handling, that DNA can't be a determining factor." Pow, let off the hook again. I can almost hear Nomsod and his buddies celebrating, "Alright, where's the next party - I heard there are a bunch of really cute farang chicks there - let's go have some fun!"

I take some comfort from the fact that Hannah's parents are not Thai Visa members.

Maybe if they are they can at least take comfort that some people do actually care.

[Jip99]

Here is something to think about, I am not sure if it has been established that Hannah was in fact raped and if she wasn't it is possible the son is well aware of this fact, or they (father / son) are being advised by contacts in the BIB of this fact. Under taking a DNA test now is just part of an on going game.

If it were to emerge that Nomsod's sperm was in the victim, no problem. He could just have his lawyer say he had consenting sex with her, and then left. Then the Burmese guys must have showed up later and bludgeoned her, or whatever. Headman's family and friends still have a lot of aces up their sleeves. Any evidence pointing at them will be easily rebuffed because Thai officialdom is so eager to shield them from guilt.

Another way out for the headman's people: they can say, "because the DNA trail has been bolloxed by inept handling, that DNA can't be a determining factor." Pow, let off the hook again. I can almost hear Nomsod and his buddies celebrating, "Alright, where's the next party - I heard there are a bunch of really cute farang chicks there - let's go have some fun!"

I take some comfort from the fact that Hannah's parents are not Thai Visa members.

Maybe if they are they can at least take comfort that some people do actually care.

If you consider some of these posts 'caring' then you are delusional.

[Artisi]

Here is something to think about, I am not sure if it has been established that Hannah was in fact raped and if she wasn't it is possible the son is well aware of this fact, or they (father / son) are being advised by contacts in the BIB of this fact. Under taking a DNA test now is just part of an on going game.

If it were to emerge that Nomsod's sperm was in the victim, no problem. He could just have his lawyer say he had consenting sex with her, and then left. Then the Burmese guys must have showed up later and bludgeoned her, or whatever. Headman's family and friends still have a lot of aces up their sleeves. Any evidence pointing at them will be easily rebuffed because Thai officialdom is so eager to shield them from guilt.

Another way out for the headman's people: they can say, "because the DNA trail has been bolloxed by inept handling, that DNA can't be a determining factor." Pow, let off the hook again. I can almost hear Nomsod and his buddies celebrating, "Alright, where's the next party - I heard there are a bunch of really cute farang chicks there - let's go have some fun!"

I take some comfort from the fact that Hannah's parents are not Thai Visa members.

Maybe if they are they can at least take comfort that some people do actually care.

If you consider some of these posts 'caring' then you are delusional.

The operative word in the string was "some people do actually care" .

Don't confuse some people with some posts - there is a major difference.

[jdinasia]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

The checks you describe may well have been done, but excluded from the case as they help the wrong side...

Consider the presence of a third DNA trace, confirmed by a police pathologist - on national TV. But not part of the case...

Also, still no explanation how Gen Panya could confirm seeing cctv evidence one day but deny it the next...

I don't believe anything the RTP say now. This is more third world than Africa.

"have been done "

Really?

Another conspiracy theory.

[Johnsen]

Phone records don't lie.. Pretty simple..

[MikePhuket1970]

Phone records don't lie.. Pretty simple..

Exactly and complete cctv video neither

[sweatalot]

Why don't the Burmese give their DNA to the British Police and ask them to send it back to Britain for analysis... Easy.

Easy?

I'm not convinced

[sweatalot]

Why don't the Burmese give their DNA to the British Police and ask them to send it back to Britain for analysis... Easy.

Do we know that the Brits were able do get the rapists' DNA from Hannah's cavities?

One poster posted the rules for repatriation which included embalming. Would that destroy the DNA?

Were the Thais able to sanitize the body?

Have the Brits ever commented on whether they have DNA from the perps?

Who would trust supposed perp DNA provided by Thai police?

"Who would trust supposed perp DNA provided by Thai police?"

Exactly - the same applies if Nomsod tests negative