Thailand to 'allow' second DNA test for British murder accused

[Emster23]

Divide the new samples in half: first half label "recovered from crime scene" second half: "from suspects". Then give to UK to test and confirm.

[Oscar2]

O.K. so that was rubbish and she clearly was wrong but don't take away from her credibility as a forensic pathologist.

She was also the one that claimed Rohingya refugees were transporting bomb making materials to southern insurgents, an allegation that few outside of Thailand took seriously but which appeared to justify the heavy-handed treatment of the refugees under Abhisit. (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2009/02/20092451910503370.html). She may otherwise be good at her job, but she has always struck me as a publicity hound ... the autobiography, the flamboyant style, the eagerness to talk to the media. Like no other forensic scientist I'm aware of... Even Thomas Noguchi (LA) did not chase the limelight like this one.

ahh yes I remember Thomas Noguchi....hehe....

[draftvader]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Many people were doubting the tests "came back too fast" etc

I spoke to soon. Welcome in. Without opposition there is no debate. Without debate there will be no conclusion. As much as it pains me to say I'm glad one of you is here to stir things up and provide stimulus.

[jdinasia]

Thaivisa doesn't allow the linking of a certain facebook group anymore, but on there are rumors police have confirmed Nomsod is the guilty party. If so Thailand 'allowing a second DNA test' and be seen to be assisting in the investigation would be a way to save face slightly.

If true, the two poor scapegoats can thank social media with Thaivisa at the forefront for in principle saving their lives!! Well done to the posters here for refusing to let go!!

Two very high profile posters on this topic has all of a sudden got very quiet, wonder why??

Umm work?

Already you have floated 2 more conspiracy theories and I am only on page 3

[jdinasia]

Nomsod and Sean???

4

[jdinasia]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Many people were doubting the tests "came back too fast" etc

I spoke to soon. Welcome in. Without opposition there is no debate. Without debate there will be no conclusion. As much as it pains me to say I'm glad one of you is here to stir things up and provide stimulus.

Back to back meetings in the morning, but I will do my best to point out the lies and inconsistencies from the tin foil hat brigade.

[Unconvinced]

Having tried to read and digest all the news and postings on this case I've come to the conclusion that these 2 Myanmar guys may have been selected to be scapegoats at a very early stage in the chain of events. It seems everyone knew they played guitar, smoked, drank beer and frequented the beach in close proximity to where the bodies were found. They were also bar workers and illegal immigrants who fled the police when they played takraw with their friends. They were an easy target for a 'frame up' especially if the local cop/bag man was involved. When I watched the re-enactment charade they came across as being in a total daze, if not in a state of shock to the extent they had to be 'directed' by the RTP. I'll eat 'humble pie' if I'm wrong, but I think I'll be eating fried rice instead when this whole unsavoury casee is solved.

This is what I don't understand. Why weren't they the first to be dna tested if they were hot suspects? Yet their results supposedly cam several weeks after the murder. They also appear to be in the first batch who were tested, and deemed cleared - this was roughly 200 persons. Surely they were in that first group. Then their dna is supposedly found positive in world record time (were they tested again, and somehow found positive the second time. No wonder the prosecutors have a major headache!

That extremely inconvenient photo showing at least one of the Burmese suspects and the third Burmese "star witness" (fail) in the early lines to get DNA-tested suggests they were tested. They were smiling unworried in the queue and they stuck around the island thereafter. I expect also that any and all staff of the vital bar would have been prioritised for testing when the police were so focused on that bar on and around Sep 24.

Another great news story from the early days (after they'd given up accusing farang friends of homosexual jealousy and placing stained pants in the wrong luggage, but before they were very briefly pursuing the headman's son) was the following article about 3 Burmese guys detained and suspected purely because they'd been on the beach. A subsequent report cleared and freed them because their DNA did not match. Would be great to know if these are the very same 3 Burmese guys that the police circled back to a few weeks later under Plan D or E:

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/surat-police-detain-three-myanmar-workers-questioning-connection-britons-murder/

[Expat Girl]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Many people were doubting the tests "came back too fast" etc

I spoke to soon. Welcome in. Without opposition there is no debate. Without debate there will be no conclusion. As much as it pains me to say I'm glad one of you is here to stir things up and provide stimulus.

Incorrect..... think about it

[saakura]

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A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

And where / who will conduct the second gathering of saliva or whatever from the two Myanmar boys, who will be present, will the media be present.

And who will be there to guarantee that it's not swapped or whatever in the laboratory?

For credibility it would be better if the officers from UK were present at every step. Will it happen? Will the UK police or the UK Gov't speak up and insist on being present? It's also an opportunity for them to try to get a clearer picture / get some (not all) answers.

Where's Khunying Porntip?

Far too busy desperately endorsing fake Bomb Detectors already comprehensibly denounced by Governments worldwide and the "manufacturers" jailed and fined.

Patrick

O.K. so that was rubbish and she clearly was wrong but don't take away from her credibility as a forensic pathologist.

It does bcos to this day she has never retracted or apologised. In fact in the begining of the controversy, she was vigorously defending it. And she has not done anything spectacular as a forensic pathologist.

[draftvader]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Many people were doubting the tests "came back too fast" etc

I spoke to soon. Welcome in. Without opposition there is no debate. Without debate there will be no conclusion. As much as it pains me to say I'm glad one of you is here to stir things up and provide stimulus.

Back to back meetings in the morning, but I will do my best to point out the lies and inconsistencies from the tin foil hat brigade.

Not exactly how I'd put it. However I have to leave it here for tonight. I have to cuddle up with my baby girl. I'm lucky to be able to hold her. Hannah's parents will never feel that again and she was still their baby girl. Remember when you're trimming the fat off not to trim too hard or you might take some meat too and that would simply be tragic.

Let the debate rage. I'll fasten a cup of coffee before I re-join the debate in the morning. Play nice now boys and girls.

[jdinasia]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

And where / who will conduct the second gathering of saliva or whatever from the two Myanmar boys, who will be present, will the media be present.

And who will be there to guarantee that it's not swapped or whatever in the laboratory?

For credibility it would be better if the officers from UK were present at every step. Will it happen? Will the UK police or the UK Gov't speak up and insist on being present? It's also an opportunity for them to try to get a clearer picture / get some (not all) answers.

Where's Khunying Porntip?

Far too busy desperately endorsing fake Bomb Detectors already comprehensibly denounced by Governments worldwide and the "manufacturers" jailed and fined.

Patrick

O.K. so that was rubbish and she clearly was wrong but don't take away from her credibility as a forensic pathologist.

It does bcos to this day she has never retracted or apologised. In fact in the begining of the controversy, she was vigorously defending it. And she has not done anything spectacular as a forensic pathologist.

She made her bones (and was awarded her title) standing up to the RTP. The gt200 debacle has severely damaged her credibility in the eyes of many.

[Lozza]

Thaivisa doesn't allow the linking of a certain facebook group anymore, but on there are rumors police have confirmed Nomsod is the guilty party. If so Thailand 'allowing a second DNA test' and be seen to be assisting in the investigation would be a way to save face slightly.

Correct..a Thai Policemen and 2 undercovers from the UK have said that Nomsod and friends are the guilty party. The DNA stunt is going to be farcical.

As for headman sueing troublemakers bring it on.

The PM and investigators bought this on themselves with all the bullshit stories, a thai wouldn't do this, girls in bikini's are looking for trouble,she had many boyfriends,Chris and David were in a sexual relationship.. They couldn't keep their mouths shut.

The Thai Investigators need to learn 'less is more'

Chris Ware and Hannah and Davids family should sue for damage done to THEIR names.

Wouldn't be surprised if tomorrows DNA test will be delayed.

[abitmiffed]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Exactly. This is meaningless without a supervised retest of the original DNA sample that was verifiably taken from the victim. Hopefully the UK police will request this, otherwise it's merely a publicity stunt.

What's at issue here is not any individual test, but the exact matching of any possible suspect DNA with the post-mortem samples from the victim. It's the match that is critical.

But they have already announced there was a match, so you have to wonder what is going on.

Typically ( with undegraded uncompromised DNA samples) a DNA fingerprint involving 10 markers (as done in the UK) is declared a match with an estimated probability of 1 to 50 million to one in a billion of being from someone other than the suspect. With the US marker set (13 markers), a matching profile would typically involve probabilities of tens of billions to trillions to one (that is, for the matching DNA to be from someone other than the suspect, you would have to test a population greater than that of the earth for the same profile to come up by chance).

Even if the DNA samples are badly degraded or a difficult mixture, a report always contains the estimated probability of the match occurring by chance to a person other than the suspect.

Just from the apparent uncertainty of the prosecution, it is difficult to believe they have credible DNA evidence at this stage...

"Just from the apparent uncertainty of the prosecution, it is difficult to believe they have credible DNA evidence at this stage..."

Yes, that has to be the obvious conclusion, based on common sense... Seems even the prosecutors are not buying (yet?) what was publicly labeled as "solved and done with"...

"BIZARRE" is the most friendly term I can come up with....

I think that they have plenty of DNA but none of just hannahs to mix it with the burmese, meaning all they have is the killers dna mixed with hannah. Therefore they cant seperate it. They had no idea they would have to go to this much trouble to fake evidence and they have lost control.

[TTom911]

It's very interesting to go back and read the news reports about the investigation from the days right after the murders.

Within 2 days of the murder, a group of suspects were identified and DNA tested, including 3 men who were seen drinking on the beach near the crime scene (identified in the reports as the primary suspects at the time).

These three men, who were not identified by name in the news reports, were interrogated twice, DNA tested and not matched, and released.

In addition, there was discussion of a second murder weapon other than the hoe, which was thought to be a metal object used to bludgeon the victims.

Google "Koh Tao murders, Still no arrests, no DNA matches, September 18" and read all the reports for that day and the couple of days beforehand.

I think that some reasonable inferences can be drawn from those reports. They would certainly beg a few questions at least.

Spot on... this "perfectly closed" case has more holes than a Swiss cheese... we have not heard the last of this treacherous saga...

[jdinasia]

We invented the Police Force, a few centuries of experience have taught us how to conduct an investigation, especially one like this. This is definitely a case of slowly slowly catchee monkey

Here we have it. Nationalism. Ego.

Nothing more.

[abitmiffed]

There's a new piece of "evidence" created by CSI LA .. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/10679864_727875407290187_4086516763862413803_o.jpg you probably need to be signed in to facebook to see it..

The picture shows that the man seen running on CCTV is roughly 160-167cm tall.. The scapegoats are roughly 145-148cm tall.. Nom Sod and Mon are 160cm and 168cm respectively ..

Not evidence yet just theories as he would need perfect messurements of the door and blah blah blah....but that dude is relentless and damn good in my book.

[Lozza]

Oh they're going to allow them to test them again? Does this mean they are going to allow the most likely real murderers to refuse to give their DNA again as well? What's the point of doing the same test on the same people again?

I would have thought that this was obvious!

They were apparently cleared in the first round of testing, their DNA supposedly "matched" in the second round so.......

it seems that they are trying for a "best of three" result.

Would be cheaper and quicker to do Rock, Scissors, Paper though, and probably more reliable.

This "They were apparently cleared in the first round of testing, their DNA supposedly "matched" in the second round so" comes from the conspiracists grapevine or do you know it for a fact? In other words, cite?

Because from the actual news I've read the two suspects didn't show up for the first round of tests done on coworkers.

You didn't see or read much then..they were photographed being there on the first round.

[metisdead]

A trolling post has been removed.

Posts containing a link to CSILA has been removed. Facebook links in and of themselves are not a problem, the content can be. In other words, we don't allow rumors and that site is just that, a rumor mill. Also see here:

Any posts which can be construed as rumor mongering are not allowed.

[Expat Girl]

@jdinasia

"It doesn't?"

well actually it does, cite. zellerman vs croker..

[Lozza]

Well at least we've had a balanced solution put forward by the Surat Thani governor (according to a paper we can't quote- BKP).

He suggests (wait for it)...

A curfew of migrant workers on Samui, Phangan and Koh Tao (indoors by 10pm chaps). The tourist board are in agreement it seems. Will this apply to western workers in those areas (teachers, businessmen etc)? This new proposal applies to 'Migrant workers'.

Not racist at all to force non Thais inside after 10pm, of course. As we know, Thais are perfect.

One word...sick

[Expat Girl]

JTJ and jdinasia!! Please come around and explain this one to us!!

Did you not read the article??

they did hence the question

[partington]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Exactly. This is meaningless without a supervised retest of the original DNA sample that was verifiably taken from the victim. Hopefully the UK police will request this, otherwise it's merely a publicity stunt.

What's at issue here is not any individual test, but the exact matching of any possible suspect DNA with the post-mortem samples from the victim. It's the match that is critical.

But they have already announced there was a match, so you have to wonder what is going on.

Typically ( with undegraded uncompromised DNA samples) a DNA fingerprint involving 10 markers (as done in the UK) is declared a match with an estimated probability of 1 to 50 million to one in a billion of being from someone other than the suspect. With the US marker set (13 markers), a matching profile would typically involve probabilities of tens of billions to trillions to one (that is, for the matching DNA to be from someone other than the suspect, you would have to test a population greater than that of the earth for the same profile to come up by chance).

Even if the DNA samples are badly degraded or a difficult mixture, a report always contains the estimated probability of the match occurring by chance to a person other than the suspect.

Just from the apparent uncertainty of the prosecution, it is difficult to believe they have credible DNA evidence at this stage...

"Just from the apparent uncertainty of the prosecution, it is difficult to believe they have credible DNA evidence at this stage..."

Yes, that has to be the obvious conclusion, based on common sense... Seems even the prosecutors are not buying (yet?) what was publicly labeled as "solved and done with"...

"BIZARRE" is the most friendly term I can come up with....

I think that they have plenty of DNA but none of just hannahs to mix it with the burmese, meaning all they have is the killers dna mixed with hannah. Therefore they cant seperate it. They had no idea they would have to go to this much trouble to fake evidence and they have lost control.

This is unlikely to be the case. There are well established and tested methods for separating sperm DNA from the DNA of a rape victim. For one, sperm can be selectively removed from a DNA sample using antibodies to sperm coat proteins attached to beads. This effectively enriches the assailant's DNA from the rape victim's DNA by hundreds of fold.

Alternatively, an even easier method , without going into boring detail, is that the nuclei of sperm cells (which contains the DNA) are not broken open by a simple reagent that WILL break open the nuclei of non-sperm cells (that is the victim's cells), so you can break open the victim's cells first, remove the DNA, THEN break open the sperm nuclei, giving you a DNA sample that is hugely enriched in sperm DNA with hardly any victim DNA in it at all.

I am guessing that any "match" they actually were able to show was completely unconvincing (if the tests were done at all, and if they were done on the correct samples) and just wont stand up in court (e.g probability that persons other than the Burmese could be the source of the samples is something like 1 in 1000, or less than the island's population.)

EDIT: Sorry I think I misunderstood your point, reading it again. You are saying that they can't recreate a fake sample by mixing Hannah's DNA with the Burmese, because the only sample they have is Hannah's DNA plus the killers (if the killers are not the Burmese). This is probably true, but there would be no need for them to mock up a sample like this. Once DNA is extracted it is just a colourless solution. They could mix what they liked and label it how they want, and just say all the original biological sample has been used up. (They would certainly have collected samples containing only Hannah's DNA from blood or another tissue as a reference sample, and so would have her DNA in uncontaminated form.)

Edited October 29, 2014 by partington

[kennw]

Unless the authenticity of collection testing and verification of DNA of victims and accused is certified by a credible independent authority such as the British police doubts and speculative theories will not abate. It is in Thailand's interest to allow this to be done. Surely it is a win win for the reform effort of our good PM.

[jdinasia]

JTJ and jdinasia!! Please come around and explain this one to us!!

Did you not read the article??

they did hence the question

From the article ""We will allow suspects to take another DNA test," Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting. "If they think that the previous tests were unfair we will conduct a second test."

[MaiChai]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

And there lies the crux of the problem: if you can't trust the police, who can you trust? The army, government, politicians? Some people have forgotten what justice means? Ensuring beyond all reasonable doubt the suspects are guilty.

[Expat Girl]

JTJ and jdinasia!! Please come around and explain this one to us!!

Did you not read the article??

they did hence the question

From the article ""We will allow suspects to take another DNA test," Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting. "If they think that the previous tests were unfair we will conduct a second test."

As said. they did

[jdinasia]

JTJ and jdinasia!! Please come around and explain this one to us!!

Did you not read the article??

they did hence the question

From the article ""We will allow suspects to take another DNA test," Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting. "If they think that the previous tests were unfair we will conduct a second test."

As said. they did

Not evident from the question.

[Mooner]

There's a new piece of "evidence" created by CSI LA .. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/10679864_727875407290187_4086516763862413803_o.jpg you probably need to be signed in to facebook to see it..

The picture shows that the man seen running on CCTV is roughly 160-167cm tall.. The scapegoats are roughly 145-148cm tall.. Nom Sod and Mon are 160cm and 168cm respectively ..

Not evidence yet just theories as he would need perfect messurements of the door and blah blah blah....but that dude is relentless and damn good in my book.

It's a universal standard measurement. If you have sliding doors go measure them.

[Mooner]

There's a new piece of "evidence" created by CSI LA .. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/10679864_727875407290187_4086516763862413803_o.jpg you probably need to be signed in to facebook to see it..

The picture shows that the man seen running on CCTV is roughly 160-167cm tall.. The scapegoats are roughly 145-148cm tall.. Nom Sod and Mon are 160cm and 168cm respectively ..

Not evidence yet just theories as he would need perfect messurements of the door and blah blah blah....but that dude is relentless and damn good in my book.

It's a universal standard measurement. If you have sliding doors go measure them.

[Expat Girl]

JTJ and jdinasia!! Please come around and explain this one to us!!

Did you not read the article??

they did hence the question

From the article ""We will allow suspects to take another DNA test," Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha told reporters after a weekly cabinet meeting. "If they think that the previous tests were unfair we will conduct a second test."

As said. they did

Not evident from the question.

Clear to me