Sweden recognises Palestinian state

[Morch]

Imho Sweden has done the right thing.

The vast majority of countries in the world have recognized Palestine. The refusal to recognize Palestine by the US and blocking its membership in the UN is weakening an already next to useless group.

Unless mistaken, so far the Palestinians did not apply for full UN membership. Having the status of non-member observer state was achieved despite the USA voting against it. Not sure how "blocking" applies here. The main reason the Palestinians are not going through with this is (well, unless Abbas actually will this time) is that the previous agreements with Israel might become

void. Hard to say what the consequences of such a move will be, definitely a risk - and Abbas plays it safe most of the time.

I would imagine that there are far grander issues which make the UN less than perfect, but if seeing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as being central to world issues floats your boat, enjoy. The other bit is that not having the UN could be worse, but that would drive us OT.

The Swedish recognition, by itself, wouldn't be a big deal, as others posted - most countries are already there. It bears more weight as it deviates from the norm of Western diplomacy in this matter. Not sure it would have a major effect on actual state of things, but definitely applies more diplomatic pressure on Israel.

[Morch]

It seems to me that the most pertinent question is which European country will be the first to follow Sweden in officially recognizing the state of Palestine? I think the UK is a good bet, but others might think France. Don't count out Ireland either.

By the way, in an attempt to correct the "counter factual" posts above, here is a map of the countries which recognize the state of Palestine

The writing (as the say), is on the wall.

With most countries already recognizing Palestine, the pertinent question is not who's next? , but what this widely acclaimed recognition actually means for the Palestinians and the Israelis. The tally of Palestine supporters is nothing new, but its effect on the situation is less dramatic than one would have imagined.

[Morch]

More than 2/3 of the countries of the world have recognized Palestine.

So stating it is not a country is disingenuous at the very least.

While not disputing the Palestinian right for a country, stating that it is a country is no less disingenuous.

The recognized representative of said country not having full authority over its said citizens nor their support. A significant portion of said country effectively seceded, and yet to be seen if it will return to the fold. Major sustainability issues (especially when factoring possible return of refugees).

So while the Palestinians deserve a country, and generally speaking it can be said which territory will be included, saying it is a country is quite hollow.

[dexterm]

A question worth asking about Sweden and others recognizing a "Palestinian" state considering there never has been a state of the "Palestinian" people in the history of the world (that is just a clear FACT) -- is WHAT are the "Palestinian" people exactly? Yes, they are primarily ethnic Arabs. From a historical POV are they not the SAME people as Arab Jordanians, Arab Syrians, Arab Lebanese? Is not the entire Palestinian national movement a tactical political construct? Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that ... but considering the heat that Jews get for desiring to keep their one TINY ethnic Jewish dominant state when there are so many ethnic Arab dominant states already LONG existing, it does seem relevant. It still seems the Arab world (and also the larger Islamic world and now Europe which has a LOT OF NERVE after how they persecuted Jews for thousands of year) is being incredibly mean spirited and greedy in trying the constantly delegitimize the very existence of Israel. No Sweden isn't saying Israel shouldn't exist but they are recognizing a fictional "Palestinian state" whose leadership is very clear in their ultimate goal of ending Israel as a state with a JEWISH character. So yes INDIRECTLY yes this is now Europe (now more Islamic Europe) having the nerve to give open support to a force against the existence of Israel.

Palestine has been around for over 3,000 years. Many different peoples have lived there. It's about time they were recognized

Palestine has been recognized for a long time as a geographical area. That is all it has ever been - since the Jewish state long ago.

I would love to debate this with you, UG, but I fear it is off topic. Another time another thread maybe.

[mania]

More than 2/3 of the countries of the world have recognized Palestine.

So stating it is not a country is disingenuous at the very least.

While not disputing the Palestinian right for a country, stating that it is a country is no less disingenuous.

The recognized representative of said country not having full authority over its said citizens nor their support.

A significant portion of said country effectively seceded, and yet to be seen if it will return to the fold.

Major sustainability issues (especially when factoring possible return of refugees).

So while the Palestinians deserve a country, and generally speaking it can be said which territory will be included, saying it is

a country is quite hollow.

All this talk about whether or not Palestine is a country seems silly

"The recognized representative of said country not having full authority over its said citizens nor their support."

If that is the criteria how many countries today cannot be recognized then?

Look at a map in the World Atlas what do you see?

Definitions may not suit those looking to argue but I think it is a silly premise at best

As far as I can surmise

What all this "recognizing" by others means is they feel it is a legit govt/country/people able to make claims against

what they feel are others committing wrongs against them. Same as other have the right to make claims against them.

I do not think anyone feels their existence was ever up for debate

Except those trying to erase it.

[Ulysses G.]

So while the Palestinians deserve a country, and generally speaking it can be said which territory will be included, saying it is a country is quite hollow.

Hollow indeed and they can not have a country without dealing with Israel as per their commitment in the Oslo accords. If they ignore that fact, it will negate all their other agreements.

[Morch]

More than 2/3 of the countries of the world have recognized Palestine.

So stating it is not a country is disingenuous at the very least.

While not disputing the Palestinian right for a country, stating that it is a country is no less disingenuous.

The recognized representative of said country not having full authority over its said citizens nor their support.

A significant portion of said country effectively seceded, and yet to be seen if it will return to the fold.

Major sustainability issues (especially when factoring possible return of refugees).

So while the Palestinians deserve a country, and generally speaking it can be said which territory will be included, saying it is

a country is quite hollow.

All this talk about whether or not Palestine is a country seems silly

"The recognized representative of said country not having full authority over its said citizens nor their support."

If that is the criteria how many countries today cannot be recognized then?

Look at a map in the World Atlas what do you see?

Definitions may not suit those looking to argue but I think it is a silly premise at best

As far as I can surmise

What all this "recognizing" by others means is they feel it is a legit govt/country/people able to make claims against

what they feel are others committing wrongs against them. Same as other have the right to make claims against them.

I do not think anyone feels their existence was ever up for debate

Except those trying to erase it.

A bit different if a country gets to a situation where it is "a house divided" after it becomes a country, or if this is the existing situation at the time of it becoming a country. Not sure if there are that many similar examples, really. Even if there are, then how is setting up a country under these conditions a good thing?

My point was that the Palestinians need to sort their domestic issues and have a reasonably unified front for things to be a bit more realistic as far as country goes. Setting up a country that would be torn in two (or descend into anarchy) right after getting independence seems futile.

The "recognizing" might indeed be an indication of moral stance, but considering action by quite a few of the countries on the list, this notion is somewhat doubtful. International politics is not, usually, about moral issues, but about interests and power.

[mania]

The "recognizing" might indeed be an indication of moral stance, but considering action by quite a few of the countries on the

list, this notion is somewhat doubtful. International politics is not, usually, about moral issues, but about interests and power.

Well yes of course......Although many may only indicate support with a pen

it is a way of at least showing support recognition of a problem. I think that is important

in this instance.

It is a veritable impossible situation.

Even with many countries agreeing with the claims Palestinians make

what can they do but use a pen & say yes we see it & yes we agree it is wrongful.

These other countries are in many ways blocked from anything further.

They still have their own to look after & also they know who they will be up against

if they show anything more than moral support.

As to "Interests & Power" I do not think it can be attributed to

any support of Palestine. It can though easily be attributed to those that seek to

deny them a voice....No? Because truthfully what interests or power does supporting Palestine offer?

I have often thought the lack of having anything to give/trade/offer is

what has also kept Palestine trapped without any friends able to give more than

a penning of moral support. If they had been an oil rich country they would have

had many fair weather friends by now.

I have read bits & pieces over the many years about this whole mess & am sad to say

it does not look like it is any closer to ever being resolved.

Yes I know of the claims by both sides. But it never was nor will it ever be a fair

fight/discussion for the reasons I cited above IMHO

Edited November 11, 2014 by mania

[Ulysses G.]

Because truthfully what interests or power does supporting Palestine offer?

The interests and power of the rich powerful Arab oil countries who have used the Palestinians as pawns for many decades.

[mania]

Because truthfully what interests or power does supporting Palestine offer?

The interests and power of the rich powerful Arab oil countries who have used the Palestinians as pawns for many decades.

I am not sure.....Although I understand the premise

But it does not add up IMO because if they wanted to use a pawn

they would support it.

But even looking back 6 years it was already a trickle at best

Arab Aid to Palestinians Often Doesn't Fulfill Pledges

Wouldn't they support them rather than ignore them?

Or are you saying this is how they use them?

Edited November 11, 2014 by mania

[Chicog]

Because truthfully what interests or power does supporting Palestine offer?

The interests and power of the rich powerful Arab oil countries who have used the Palestinians as pawns for many decades.

More specifically the oligarchs who use them to deflect public anger towards the Israelis while they trouser mountains of cash.

[Ulysses G.]

Wouldn't they support them rather than ignore them?

Or are you saying this is how they use them?

Yes. This is one of the ways that they use them. The Palestinians have been screwed over by their Arab "brothers" much more than by Israel.

[Seastallion]

Not sure those Isreal peeps getting it right they look real bad on telly.

Looks bad now over like the stuff they do to Arab peeps shootin em and pinchin their houss is a bit unfair so guess it's goid them Sweeds done it as itle stop them little kiddies gettin shot and stuff by them Iraeli blokes.

Translation:

Jews bad. Arabs good.

Not a good translation. Your online translator falls for a common mistake.

No mention of Jews there, only Israelis.

Having cleared that up, what is not clear is if you agree with the poster, or not.

[Jingthing]

Recently murdered by a crazed knife wielding Israeli Arab terrorist while waiting for a bus. While still waving his knife and chasing more random innocent Jews to stab to death, the terrorist was shot dead by Israeli authorities.

Not sure what Sweden recognizing "Palestine" did for her or even her terrorist murderer.

Yes, she was a Jewish person, because DUH, 80 percent of Israelis are Jewish people:

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jingthing

[metisdead]

Troll posts have been removed.

[jdinasia]

Wouldn't they support them rather than ignore them?

Or are you saying this is how they use them?

Yes. This is one of the ways that they use them. The Palestinians have been screwed over by their Arab "brothers" much more than by Israel.

What a strange concept. Screwed over more by a lack of willingness by Arab states than by the people who steal their land, and kill their children?

[jdinasia]

Recently murdered by a crazed knife wielding Israeli Arab terrorist while waiting for a bus. While still waving his knife and chasing more random innocent Jews to stab to death, the terrorist was shot dead by Israeli authorities.

Not sure what Sweden recognizing "Palestine" did for her or even her terrorist murderer.

Yes, she was a Jewish person, because DUH, 80 percent of Israelis are Jewish people:

Dalia-Lemkos-550x820.jpg

Attempts to use a death for gain in a discussion. Why do I think that far more pictures of dead Gazans could be posted than dead Israeli's?

[Ulysses G.]

Wouldn't they support them rather than ignore them?

Or are you saying this is how they use them?

Yes. This is one of the ways that they use them. The Palestinians have been screwed over by their Arab "brothers" much more than by Israel.

What a strange concept. Screwed over more by a lack of willingness by Arab states than by the people who steal their land, and kill their children?

Maybe they should have thought about that before they started attacking Jews, refused the offfer of their own country and then declared war on the people who were smart enough to accept the UN deal. 66 years later they demand to be recognized and Hamas - half of the unity government - still refuse to recognize Israel. Sweden is recognizing something that never existed and won't, until they finally agree to peace. .

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

Recently murdered by a crazed knife wielding Israeli Arab terrorist while waiting for a bus. While still waving his knife and chasing more random innocent Jews to stab to death, the terrorist was shot dead by Israeli authorities.

Not sure what Sweden recognizing "Palestine" did for her or even her terrorist murderer.

Yes, she was a Jewish person, because DUH, 80 percent of Israelis are Jewish people:

Dalia-Lemkos-550x820.jpg

Attempts to use a death for gain in a discussion. Why do I think that far more pictures of dead Gazans could be posted than dead Israeli's?

That is exactly what you are doing. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[jdinasia]

It would be the same if I had posted pictures.

[Jay Sata]

Sadly nothing will improve until the right wingers are displaced by the more moderate and reasonable Israeli politicians.

The world wants a solution and building settlements on land designated part of a future Palestinian state is not the answer.

[Jingthing]

Sadly nothing will improve until the right wingers are displaced by the more moderate and reasonable Israeli politicians.

The world wants a solution and building settlements on land designated part of a future Palestinian state is not the answer.

And why would the right wing in Israel weaken when you have so called "moderate" Abbas glorifying terrorist murderers and his party urging them on? Not even to mention Hamas ... with their obvious genocidal intentions.

Palestinians need to deal with ISRAEL. Sweden is tangential.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

Well what have the right wingers achieved with their attitude that blatantly encourages settlements in the West Bank and then builds barriers and walls to defend them.

This a attitude by the the Israeli extremists has achieved nothing apart from scorn from the rest of the world.

Worse still is the anger the settlers foment in displacing and disenfranchising the long term residents.

Likud and it's supporters are not what one would describe as reasonable moderate people.

Most of the world can see that so why can't the few defenders of the Israeli right wing here who appear to support the colonisation of the West. Bank.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Jingthing]

..

Most of the world can see that so why can't the few defenders of the Israeli right wing here who appear to support the colonisation of the West. Bank.

That's a cheap and unfair spin but a typical tactic just to throw dirt without considering the fundamental issues of Palestinians not accepting the existence of Israel.. Just defending Israel's right to defend herself and her legitimacy as a sovereign state does not necessarily mean support for all Israeli right wing policies/actions and building new settlements. Why not just BE HONEST and open and admit like most Israel supporters that the peaceful solution if there ever is going to be one MUST come from BOTH sides, and one of those sides is not known for Abba and meatballs?

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

Well what have the right wingers achieved with their attitude that blatantly encourages settlements in the West Bank and then builds barriers and walls to defend them.

Israel is still there and thriving despite the irrational hatred of their critics on the left and in the Islamic world. Their achievements are quite unprecedented. Sweden should be recognizing that.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[evadgib]

[Ulysses G.]

Pat Condell tells it exactly like it is.

[Jay Sata]

I did not know he was making a contribution to this discussion?

Cutting and pasting is irritating for those try to discuss this issue and others .

[Seastallion]

Recently murdered by a crazed knife wielding Israeli Arab terrorist while waiting for a bus. While still waving his knife and chasing more random innocent Jews to stab to death, the terrorist was shot dead by Israeli authorities.

Not sure what Sweden recognizing "Palestine" did for her or even her terrorist murderer.

Yes, she was a Jewish person, because DUH, 80 percent of Israelis are Jewish people:

Dalia-Lemkos-550x820.jpg

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

[Morch]

The "recognizing" might indeed be an indication of moral stance, but considering action by quite a few of the countries on the

list, this notion is somewhat doubtful. International politics is not, usually, about moral issues, but about interests and power.

Well yes of course......Although many may only indicate support with a pen

it is a way of at least showing support recognition of a problem. I think that is important

in this instance.

It is a veritable impossible situation.

Even with many countries agreeing with the claims Palestinians make

what can they do but use a pen & say yes we see it & yes we agree it is wrongful.

These other countries are in many ways blocked from anything further.

They still have their own to look after & also they know who they will be up against

if they show anything more than moral support.

As to "Interests & Power" I do not think it can be attributed to

any support of Palestine. It can though easily be attributed to those that seek to

deny them a voice....No? Because truthfully what interests or power does supporting Palestine offer?

I have often thought the lack of having anything to give/trade/offer is

what has also kept Palestine trapped without any friends able to give more than

a penning of moral support. If they had been an oil rich country they would have

had many fair weather friends by now.

I have read bits & pieces over the many years about this whole mess & am sad to say

it does not look like it is any closer to ever being resolved.

Yes I know of the claims by both sides. But it never was nor will it ever be a fair

fight/discussion for the reasons I cited above IMHO

It is true that Palestine by itself, country or not, got little to offer.

But as a tool for getting at Israel, or diverting public anger/attention (this is more relevant to Muslim countries) from domestic shortcomings, it is very useful. Also a certain buying power and fancy contracts in some of them oil rich countries, supporting

Palestine couldn't be bad for the chances of scoring some of that.

There was a time when the Arab League effectively boycotted both Israel and firms dealing with Israel. Many countries and

international firms complied. The current BDS effort is a joke in comparison.

There was a time when many of the countries supporting the Palestinian claim did not have diplomatic relationships with the

state of Israel (or only limited ones), that changed as well.

It is not that pressure cannot be applied on Israel by the world, USA support notwithstanding, just somehow seems most of

the world takes the easy way out - signing the petition, and heading home to watch TV.

The short and middle term future of this conflict does not look very bright, indeed. Then again, guess the same applied for the

Hundred Years' War, while it was on. But yes, as long as the current balance (both between Israel and Palestine, and within each) remains, little chances of this heading anywhere positive. More worrying if it would get drastically worse, though.