Sweden recognises Palestinian state

[NeverSure]

-snip-

The numbers I keeping quoting say it all and before long the USA will have to accept they can not go against world opinion.

Oh really. When did the US act according to "world opinion?"

I believe you were thinking of some puzzy European and Asian countries, perhaps?

[Jingthing]

If you want to roll the issue in to one topic better order a new server!

The problem will be every time a new Israel/Palestine story emerges in the news section it will be unfair to other discussions to combine it in much the same way as you cannot lump the problems of the EU in to one thread.

Nice idea though as you could also have a thread dealing with American foreign policy and it's repercussions embracing oil prices,

the war on drugs and terror plus ISIS.

Best regards

jay

Mille viae ducunt homines per saecula Romam.

Well sadly the Jewish people were having problems getting on with their neighbours in Roman times.

They certainly had a few run ins to put it mildly.

And given the problems over the centuries I would have thought peace and harmony would have been uppermost in their minds.

There is a school of thought in some Christian circles that the Jewish race are cursed forever because of the crucifixion of Jesus.

In 1965, as part of the Vatican II council, the Catholic Church published a long-anticipated declaration entitled Nostra Aetate, offering a new approach to the question of Jewish responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Jews_and_Non-Jews/Attitudes_Toward_Non-Jews/Christianity/who-killed-jesus.shtml

But now we really are getting in to thread drift.

Thread drift indeed. The last thing we need here are the bizarre (and honestly OFFENSIVE) musings of persons hostile to Zionism on what's good for the Jews, and what isn't.

[Jay Sata]

Zionism is not a religion or a race.

Frankly most of the problems we have in the world centre on religion not least in the Middle East.

There would be a lot of countries happy if Israel elected a centre aligned government instead of the repetitive right wingers who always run the coalitions.

Most Palestinians would be happy to just get on with their life.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Jay Sata]

Palestinians are also people who have families and just want to get on with their life like the rest of the world.

Not exactly easy or enjoyable given the fact their daily lives are governed by the right wingers running the Israeli coalition government.

[Lissos]

Palestinians are also people who have families and just want to get on with their life like the rest of the world.

And, they largely do.

[Seastallion]

Palestinians are also people who have families and just want to get on with their life like the rest of the world.

And, they largely do.

Minus the security of knowing your house might be bulldozed next week. Minus crayons, pencils and all the simple things in life. Minus the peace of mind that you can wake up tomorrow and go to work and get paid........a whole lot of minuses.

Actually, "largely" is not the right word.

[Lissos]

Minus the security of knowing your house might be bulldozed next week. Minus crayons, pencils and all the simple things in life.

Minus the peace of mind that you can wake up tomorrow and go to work and get paid........a whole lot of minuses. Actually, "largely" is not the right word.

I was referring to the disputed territory of the West Bank, in which things are far more balanced that many would have us believe. Gaza, I cannot speak of, as I haven't been to that territory. What I do know is that this notion of life being an intolerable living nightmare of daily drama - 'under the boot of the usurper Jew' ,which does the rounds on the internet, certainly doesn't apply wholesale to the disputed territory of the West Bank if that is what the agenda is trying to tell us. It is an area that has just as much great wealth, co-existence, calm and normality in the logistics of daily life, just as it has its local equivalent of sink estates riddled with Islamic fundamentalism, areas which even the PA police prefer to avoid entering if they can manage to.

[Seastallion]

Minus the security of knowing your house might be bulldozed next week. Minus crayons, pencils and all the simple things in life.

Minus the peace of mind that you can wake up tomorrow and go to work and get paid........a whole lot of minuses. Actually, "largely" is not the right word.

I was referring to the disputed territory of the West Bank, in which things are far more balanced that many would have us believe. Gaza, I cannot speak of, as I haven't been to that territory. What I do know is that this notion of life being an intolerable living nightmare of daily drama - 'under the boot of the usurper Jew' ,which does the rounds on the internet, certainly doesn't apply wholesale to the disputed territory of the West Bank if that is what the agenda is trying to tell us. It is an area that has just as much great wealth, co-existence, calm and normality in the logistics of daily life, just as it has its local equivalent of sink estates riddled with Islamic fundamentalism, areas which even the PA police prefer to avoid entering if they can manage to.

Fair enough. Point taken.

I do wonder, though, about your term "disputed territory". Is it disputed or occupied? I was under the impression that it is generally thought of as occupied.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

Stay on topic.

[Jay Sata]

The United Nations and the 135 nations who recognise Palestine do not see the occupied West Bank as disputed territory.

That term comes from the foreign immigrant settlers or illegal land grabbers who are there with the consent and support of the right wing israeli coalition government.

You can try and use whatever words you want or slate countries like Sweden but they are just endorsing opinion that is widespread throughout Europe.

[Jingthing]

They could actually be both quite easily. Settlements ... well there are people living there ... disputed territory ... well, as said the Palestinians (and others) question whether the settlements should legally be there. Not sure why this is such a problem over terms in this case. It's well understood in the case of a negotiated two state solution (if ever of course which we don't know the future yet) will included the west bank settlements as a part of any negotiation and surely Israel would need to compromise there. The Sweden recognition thing and related is intended to put pressure on Israel ... but that supposes there will at a later date be direct talks between the two sides, not just this unilateral stuff ... Right now, that hope seems remote.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

To respond to JT's last post, as it is important to the topic (and other topics). Terms are important. Terms tend to evolve how a thing is thought of in the collective public mind, and as such any slight deviation from the truth can, as in chinese whispers, slowly make the thing thought of as something that it is not.

In the West Bank situation, moving from the term "occupied" to "disputed" suddenly bestows an air of doubt onto whose land it is. Convenient for the settlers, but harmful to the peace process.

"Occupied" leaves no doubt as to the real situation.

[arjunadawn]

Indeed, "occupied" leaves little "doubt." However, occupied lands can also be disputed. More to the point: The West Bank was "occupied" by Jordan from 1948 until 1967. When negotiating an "interim" deal, an armistice, the Arabs went to great pains to change the text of the armistice to make it clear that these and other lands are "disputed" even while they "occupied them." Its easy to see their reasoning; they wanted more land later.

Israel now has effective "control" (since 1967) of land that it actually has deed to, but nevertheless "occupies" militarily (relative only to the considerable arab population that (partially) seeded the West Bank during the Arab occupation) pending final status agreements. The notion that this land, now in possesion of jews, is legally and intellectually bankrupt.

Among other reasons, history will note this act by Sweden as nothing less than dhimitude.

[Jay Sata]

It is worth pointing out that the United Nations endorse the Palestinian refugees right to return as per below.

Today there are more than 3.7 million Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps throughout the Middle East and many more exiles worldwide. Their right of return is clearly and unambiguously guaranteed by international law under the Geneva Conventions, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The refugees have a claim to citizenship, financial settlement and, in some cases, return to former homes and property in what is today Israel.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-council/index-of-countries-on-the-security-council-agenda/israel-palestine-and-the-occupied-territories/48028.html

Edited November 15, 2014 by metisdead
14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.

[arjunadawn]

It is worth pointing out that the United Nations endorse the Palestinian refugees right to return as per below.

Today there are more than 3.7 million Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps throughout the Middle East and many more exiles worldwide. Their right of return is clearly and unambiguously guaranteed by international law under the Geneva Conventions, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The refugees have a claim to citizenship, financial settlement and, in some cases, return to former homes and property in what is today Israel. The government of Israel, however, opposes Palestian immigration, in order to maintain the Jewish character of the state. Whatever the details of any future agreement, a lasting and effective settlement must find a solution for Palestinian refugees that recognizes and accommodates their "right of return" and their claim to full citizenship in a state they can call home.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-council/index-of-countries-on-the-security-council-agenda/israel-palestine-and-the-occupied-territories/48028.html

Regarding your first post above: There is no doubt that practically speaking what you describe may be true. It clearly has come to pass that ipso facto the land is no longer Israel's rather it is the Palestinians by virture of possession, occupation, time, and acquiesence. I am aware that my view is a bit more radical but I offer no choices as a consequence of my observation. I just declare what I beleive to be the legal thread. Practically, a solution must be found within the framework of the problems you mention above.

Regarding the Right of Return: This poision pill is another example of the onesided nature of this conflict with regards to public relations/perception. I never hear demands for the Jews to be afforded a right of return to the many arab countries that they were evicted from. I never hear talk of compensating Jews for the many possessions that they had confiscated. Indeed, when one looks objectively at the net movement of populations during this time it is starkly apparent that about as many jews moved toward israel as local arabs/palestinians moved out. The only difference is the Palestinians, in significant numbers, did so willingly or by enticement from neighboring arabs. Clearly, there are many who were forced out as Israel did not want to leave an agressive population to their rear- clearly an example of very bad behavior though tactically necessary (perhaps).

And so it occurs to me the onesided nature of many of the protests about Israel. I am not Jewish and care for neither of their religions. I just really do see a different framework for which this problem is set within.

[Jay Sata]

Surely if Palestine is to exist as an independent state in the future with similar rights then they must be free to allow their diaspora the same entitlement as Israel .

The right to return has a solid foundation in international law. Article 13(2) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) states, "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country".

Edited November 15, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Ulysses G.]

Palestine was never a country and there will never be any "right of return" to Arabs who fled the area or to the Jews that were forced out of actual Arab countries and had to immigrate to Israel.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

Palestine was never a country and there will never be any "right of return" to Arabs who fled the area or to the Jews that were forced out of actual Arab countries and had to immigrate to Israel.

More made up facts. Palestine is as much of a state as Israel and is recognised by 135 nations representing 70% of the United Nations.

Israel has only existed since 1948.

Where do you get your no right of return from? The right wing Likud government no doubt.

Try reading this

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence ... has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Ulysses G.]

Palestine was never a country and there will never be any "right of return" to Arabs who fled the area or to the Jews that were forced out of actual Arab countries and had to immigrate to Israel.

More made up facts. Palestine is as much of a state as Israel

Whether, or not, you consider Palestine a country and it is certainly not "as much of a state as Israel" (it is statu nascendi at most). It was not one when the Palestinian Arabs fled.

"Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country".

[Jay Sata]

Looks like you are both stuck for words for a change or at least reasoned argument.

135 nations across the globe recognise Palestine with Sweden being the latest and France considering.

World opinion is in favour of relieving the plight of those described in the UN documents I have quoted above.

The West Bank is not part of Israel and the foreign settlers and the Israeli army have no right to be there.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Ulysses G.]

Stuck for words? You must be having problems seeing your computer screen.

Your little list means next to nothing in the real world. They have no state. They have no economy. They have no borders. The two halves of their dysfunctional government are at war with each other and can't agree on anything. Recognizing a "state" does not make it functional.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[chuckd]

Palestine was never a country and there will never be any "right of return" to Arabs who fled the area or to the Jews that were forced out of actual Arab countries and had to immigrate to Israel.

More made up facts. Palestine is as much of a state as Israel and is recognised by 135 nations representing 70% of the United Nations.

Israel has only existed since 1948.

Where do you get your no right of return from? The right wing Likud government no doubt.

Try reading this

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence ... has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

By this I would assume next year when I renew my retirement extension, I can simply tell the nice Thai Immigration Officer that the UN says I have a right to residence in any country I want.

I don't need no more stinking extension to remain in Thailand, so says the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as espoused by the UN.

By your UN logic, they would have to permit me to live here visa free and without restriction.

Anybody want to bet it won't work?

Edited November 15, 2014 by chuckd

[Jay Sata]

Palestine was never a country and there will never be any "right of return" to Arabs who fled the area or to the Jews that were forced out of actual Arab countries and had to immigrate to Israel.

More made up facts. Palestine is as much of a state as Israel and is recognised by 135 nations representing 70% of the United Nations.

Israel has only existed since 1948.

Where do you get your no right of return from? The right wing Likud government no doubt.

Try reading this

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence ... has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

By this I would assume next year when I renew my retirement extension, I can simply tell the nice Thai Immigration Officer that the UN says I have a right to residence in any country I want.

I don't need no more stinking extension to remain in Thailand, so says the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as espoused by the UN.

By your UN logic, they would have to permit me to live here visa free and without restriction.

Anybody want to bet it won't work?

You are not a citizen of Thailand and like 99% of us who spend time in the country never will be. You are a visitor and there on a visa hence the need to renew.

As for rights you have none. You cannot own land and can be expelled at the whim of an official.

The one thing you do have is more rights to be in Thailand than the Israeli forces and the foreign settlers in the West Bank.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed:

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[JDGRUEN]

Palestine was never a country and there will never be any "right of return" to Arabs who fled the area or to the Jews that were forced out of actual Arab countries and had to immigrate to Israel.

More made up facts. Palestine is as much of a state as Israel and is recognised by 135 nations representing 70% of the United Nations.

Israel has only existed since 1948.

Where do you get your no right of return from? The right wing Likud government no doubt.

Try reading this

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence ... has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

By this I would assume next year when I renew my retirement extension, I can simply tell the nice Thai Immigration Officer that the UN says I have a right to residence in any country I want.

I don't need no more stinking extension to remain in Thailand, so says the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as espoused by the UN.

By your UN logic, they would have to permit me to live here visa free and without restriction.

Anybody want to bet it won't work?

You are not a citizen of Thailand and like 99% of us who spend time in the country never will be. You are a visitor and there on a visa hence the need to renew.

As for rights you have none. You cannot own land and can be expelled at the whim of an official.

The one thing you do have is more rights to be in Thailand than the Israeli forces and the foreign settlers in the West Bank.

Try the laws of universal land warfare since time immemorial ... attack my country and I will take your lands to protect my country from your future attack and invasion. Ignorance of world history - eons of world history - does not relieve you of ignorance of what is going on in Israel - the West Bank and Gaza... HINT ... don't attack Israel ... Israel will bite you...

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies removed.

[up-country_sinclair]

More great news coming out of Europe!

Sweden was the first domino....and it looks like Ireland, France and Spain are racing to see which will be next to do what's right:

Spanish lawmakers expected to pass a bill that will recognize Palestine as official State

Members of the Spanish Congress will hold a vote on Tuesday over recognition of a Palestinian state. According to the Spanish newspaper El Pais, the bill's draft contains two important provisions that include recognizing Palestine as an official State and calling on the European Union to influence the negotiation process between Israel and Palestine.

Parliamentary officials told to El Pais that they expect the bill to pass almost unanimously.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Spain-Congress-to-Vote-Over-Recognition-of-Palestinian-State-20141115-0003.html

"they expect the bill to pass almost unanimously"

Edited November 15, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Jingthing]

What's trendy anyway ...

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[uptheos]

Looks like you are both stuck for words for a change or at least reasoned argument.

135 nations across the globe recognise Palestine with Sweden being the latest and France considering.

World opinion is in favour of relieving the plight of those described in the UN documents I have quoted above.

The West Bank is not part of Israel and the foreign settlers and the Israeli army have no right to be there.

Of course all the Arab states are going to recognise them and large percentage of those 135 countries, would do well to look at the state of their own states. As for world opinion, I think a better indicator is to look at who still does not recognise them.