Clutchless upshifts

[wowjudo]

Hello

I planned originally to get a quickshifter for my bike.

I watched some videos about clutchless upshifts and was thinking maybe if i practice this method it will be as enjoyable and easy like a quickshifter.

Of all the videos i still don't know how to know when a clutchless upshift succeeds. I am kinda worried because i dont wan't to kill the gearbox. So anybody that has experience with clutchess upshifts that uses this method regulary.

I mostly jerk with the upshift @ first and second gear. It's kinda tricky to time. so engine jerking = i did it wrong ?

[NeverSure]

It's not a speed shift. You have to wait for the RPMs of the engine to change to the speed that will match the gear you want.

If downshifting, you shift it out of gear into neutral. Then you add gas to speed up the engine which it needs to mesh with the lower gear. Then you slide it into gear but your speeds must match.

If upshifting, you pull it into neutral and wait for the engine to slow down to match the higher gear and then slip it into gear. No clutch in either event.

Modern transmissions with syncros can be a bit more forgiving of this, but it still takes practice.

[David48]

Broke my clutch cable once on the bike ... had to do along the lines of what NS mentions above.

Easy enough to do if you can feel the rhythm of the engine.

Real bitch when I first had to stop and buy Petrol (Gas). Well, the stopping bit was OK ... but stalled it twice taking off.

[yankee99]

It's not a speed shift. You have to wait for the RPMs of the engine to change to the speed that will match the gear you want.

If downshifting, you shift it out of gear into neutral. Then you add gas to speed up the engine which it needs to mesh with the lower gear. Then you slide it into gear but your speeds must match.

If upshifting, you pull it into neutral and wait for the engine to slow down to match the higher gear and then slip it into gear. No clutch in either event.

Modern transmissions with syncros can be a bit more forgiving of this, but it still takes practice.

I wouldn't recommend clutchless down shifting on a MC. As far as up shifting some people don't recommend it from 1st- 2nd but i do it. Basically it's rhythm and not complicated and once you do it you won't even think about it. Just get on the throttle and when you feel is time to shift bump off of it (throttle) and shift. I doubt you can damage your tyranny as long as you don't force it in gear.

[NeverSure]

It's not a speed shift. You have to wait for the RPMs of the engine to change to the speed that will match the gear you want.

If downshifting, you shift it out of gear into neutral. Then you add gas to speed up the engine which it needs to mesh with the lower gear. Then you slide it into gear but your speeds must match.

If upshifting, you pull it into neutral and wait for the engine to slow down to match the higher gear and then slip it into gear. No clutch in either event.

Modern transmissions with syncros can be a bit more forgiving of this, but it still takes practice.

I wouldn't recommend clutchless down shifting on a MC. As far as up shifting some people don't recommend it from 1st- 2nd but i do it. Basically it's rhythm and not complicated and once you do it you won't even think about it. Just get on the throttle and when you feel is time to shift bump off of it (throttle) and shift. I doubt you can damage your tyranny as long as you don't force it in gear.

"I doubt you can damage your tyranny as long as you don't force it in gear."

You're right. If you're a bit gentle with the shifts, it won't want to go into gear until it's all in sync. You'll feel resistance until it just slides in.

[NeverSure]

BTW, we used to do what was called a speed shift in a car. It was for racing or 555 showing off.

Get it rolling in 1st gear under full power and shift without letting up on the throttle. It had to be fast. When it needs to shift up, just hold your throttle foot to the floor, push the clutch pedal down and back up as fast as you can, and shift at the bottom of the clutch travel. With a good solid clutch, I could chirp the tires on every shift even with positraction aka limited slip rear end.

Oh, the good old days.

[ll2]

clutchless upshifts needs some experience and time to master.

Now i just feel the revs and it always matches but after all those years of riding.

first of all, do not try to do clutchless upshifts at first and second gears as low gears - and speed - will make the process clunky and it might not want to shift without a clutch.

start to do clutchless upshifts from 3rd gear.

I also do clutchless downshifts at times but at the beginning clutchless downshifts are not recommended until you master clutchless upshifts.

There are lots of videos about it over internet which can provide you a lot of info about it and rest is practicing and time.

Hard to describe it bc it is about the feeling.

I mostly turn the throttle off or sometime half off very fast, slip the gear with my foot very kindly and slowly and throttle on. Of course this has to be done very fast. especially throttle off/on part.

If revs do not match, this way you can feel and understand as gear does not want to change. If you do this hard and revs do not match, bike might lurch forward.

And no worries, while practicing it, you do not damage the tranny. but if you are trying to do clutchless downshifting, you might damage it.

[denkiblue555]

Depending on your bike, you may be able to get an Auto Clutch like a Rekluse - this means no clutch lever needed for changing, which is pretty gangstar.

But if using a standard clutch:

* Try it whenever you feel most comfortable

* Remember that engine speed is the key to 'jumping from gear to gear' smoothly

* Feather the clutch just a little at the start to get a feel for it

Obviously the closer the ratio of the gearbox, the easier it will be.

[wowjudo]

Depending on your bike, you may be able to get an Auto Clutch like a Rekluse - this means no clutch lever needed for changing, which is pretty gangstar.

But if using a standard clutch:

* Try it whenever you feel most comfortable

* Remember that engine speed is the key to 'jumping from gear to gear' smoothly

* Feather the clutch just a little at the start to get a feel for it

Obviously the closer the ratio of the gearbox, the easier it will be.

is that the system that the 2015 bmw s1000rr has ? Clutchless downshit + upshift

and my bike is a kawasaki z800

[thrilled]

Definitely easy to hurt the gears if your not careful.It's easier on the tranny to speed shift,power shift then it is shifting without the

Clutch.Especially downshifting

[taninthai]

been looking at the hm quick shifters myself,they look like a great bit of kit and they have just bought out this new cheaper version.

all the methods above are not for me as you still have to come of the gas .if I'm com in of the gas i may aswell just flick the clutch in/out super quick at the same time.

http://hmquickshifter.com/quickshifter-superlite/

Edited October 31, 2014 by taninthai

[wowjudo]

been looking at the hm quick shifters myself,they look like a great bit of kit and they have just bought out this new cheaper version.

all the methods above are not for me as you still have to come of the gas .if I'm com in of the gas i may aswell just flick the clutch in/out super quick at the same time.

http://hmquickshifter.com/quickshifter-superlite/

is this DIY friendly ? What additional units do you need to make this Quickshifter work ?

Was looking for some before and got interested in the translogic one

[Gweiloman]

I'm a bit surprised that none of the posters have referred to this video about clutchless upshifts

Watch it, try it and it will become second nature. In fact, I'm much smoother shifting from 1st to 2nd on my Versys without using the clutch.

[ll2]

been looking at the hm quick shifters myself,they look like a great bit of kit and they have just bought out this new cheaper version.

all the methods above are not for me as you still have to come of the gas .if I'm com in of the gas i may aswell just flick the clutch in/out super quick at the same time.

http://hmquickshifter.com/quickshifter-superlite/

there is no way you can shift faster than clutchless shifting by using the clutch. it is not the same thing.

Moreover, you do not have to turn the throttle off all the way down while doing clutchless shifting all the time. it is definitely a lot faster than using the clutch.

Because clutch disengages the power so once you use the clutch, you lose time as power disengages and engages again when you let the clutch off.

But of course a quickshifter unit is the best especially ones that allows you to do smooth clutchless downshifts like BMW's system still as the clutchless shifting is surprisingly very smooth on my cbr650f, i really do not need but it is perfect for track days sure.

Edited November 1, 2014 by ll2

[SumetCycle]

http://www.ascycles.com/detail.aspx?ID=152845

Some BMWs also have a shift assist. No need to come off throttle when upshifting. With the quick shifter, no need to pull the clutch lever in either. My VFR works the same in the manual mode, although with tiptronic gears. Nail the throttle fly through the gears with only the press of a button. Constant power. What a rush.

[denkiblue555]

Depending on your bike, you may be able to get an Auto Clutch like a Rekluse - this means no clutch lever needed for changing, which is pretty gangstar.

But if using a standard clutch:

* Try it whenever you feel most comfortable

* Remember that engine speed is the key to 'jumping from gear to gear' smoothly

* Feather the clutch just a little at the start to get a feel for it

Obviously the closer the ratio of the gearbox, the easier it will be.

is that the system that the 2015 bmw s1000rr has ? Clutchless downshit + upshift

and my bike is a kawasaki z800

Nah, it's actually really old technology that turns your gearbox into one like a Honda CT90 or something (with a foot-gear lever but no clutch). It seems to only be available for off-road bikes and Harleys.

The quick shifters for sports bikes which allow you to change up gears while on the gas are different and quite effective I believe.

[taninthai]

been looking at the hm quick shifters myself,they look like a great bit of kit and they have just bought out this new cheaper version.

all the methods above are not for me as you still have to come of the gas .if I'm com in of the gas i may aswell just flick the clutch in/out super quick at the same time.

http://hmquickshifter.com/quickshifter-superlite/

is this DIY friendly ? What additional units do you need to make this Quickshifter work ?

Was looking for some before and got interested in the translogic one

as far as I know diy friendly,kit comes with a new gear shift rod and is plug and play into existing wiring loom,although this is the cheaper version it's still pretty expensive around 10,000 bht,the previous and other versions of these are around 20,000 bht.

Maybealittle expensive for just road riding but well worth it if you do a lot off track riding.

[BSJ]

It works a treat on some bikes and it's a pain in the butt on others! For me there was nothing to be gained most of the time so I never bothered.

Ps: With better machining and assembly work today most bike should be able to allow smooth clutchless shifts.

Edited November 1, 2014 by BSJ

[H1w4yR1da]

What's the point of clutchless shifting?

[Gweiloman]

What's the point of clutchless shifting?

I find it smoother changing up from first to second (especially on a cold engine). Evidence? Pillion's helmet hitting mine when using the clutch

[AllanB]

Not quite sure why you want to do this, since it will give you no performance advantage, waiting around for the revs to be right and will probably end in tears.

If you break a clutch cable in the middle of nowhere you can do it to get home, but they fit a clutch for a purpose.

[Garry]

BTW, we used to do what was called a speed shift in a car. It was for racing or 555 showing off.

Get it rolling in 1st gear under full power and shift without letting up on the throttle. It had to be fast. When it needs to shift up, just hold your throttle foot to the floor, push the clutch pedal down and back up as fast as you can, and shift at the bottom of the clutch travel. With a good solid clutch, I could chirp the tires on every shift even with positraction aka limited slip rear end.

Oh, the good old days.

We used to call it 'flat shift/ing'. Good ol' days indeed.

[Garry]

If you want a dedicated powershifter and want clutchless Up & Down gear changes and your prepared to spend some change for the setup, then check out Translogic systems: http://www.translogicuk.com/powershifters.php

[Gsxrnz]

OP - my thoughts for you.

For the track or hard out road riding, clutchless upshifts (or a quickshifter) are a must if you want to get the best/quickest shifts. With either method, you should also invert your gear lever so down/up is reversed GP style. This allows you to have your foot on top of the lever for upshifting which is much faster. It also means when exiting a knee-down corner, your foot can come from the peg straight to the lever to upshift without having to get your foot under it, thus saving time and no risk of squashing your foot between the bike/road.

The clutchless upshift method for the track and hard riding (assuming you're looking for max acceleration etc) is to be constantly applying pressure on the gear lever as you're accelerating in anticipation of the next upshift. Snap the throttle off/on as quickly as you can and the preloaded weight from your foot on the lever will shift gear as the driving force is removed from the transmission.

I'd also suggest you fit a speed throttle that converts the amount of throttle roll to say a 1/4 turn. This reduces the amount of twist on/off required to get a faster shift and power back on quickly.

As you accelerate in the next gear, release pressure from the lever so it can return to the detent, and then reapply the pressure in anticipation of the next shift. Take time to understand the response of your bike especially going 1st through 3rd. On a superbike when you may only be in those gears for a few seconds at max throttle, if you get it wrong and give too much of a fistful at the change in the wrong rev/speed/gear combination then you'll pop a wheelie or worse.

It's almost as fast as a quickshifter, costs nothing, and unless you intend to own your bike for a hundred years it will cause no hardship to the modern transmission.

As for clutchless upshifts/downshifts while commuter riding, well yes it can be done quite easily by partially rolling off and "feeling" the shift through your foot as other posters have described. It can make for very smooth riding if you get it right. I do it occasionally if traffic conditions allow for it, but IMHO the real reason for clutchless shifting is for hard out riding.

Quickshifters are the bees knees, but can result in tears unless you're experienced and have at least some track riding experience. I'd encourage you to learn clutchless upshifting at speed and become familiar with it before you consider a quickshifter.

[H1w4yR1da]

I understand its uses for the track, where milliseconds count. But for the road?

[RubberSideDown]

I understand its uses for the track, where milliseconds count. But for the road?

If you're interested in pure acceleration, a quick-shifter equipped motorcycle will pull about a bike-length per shift at WFO vs a similar bike without one. It's more of a toy than anything else for the road, but, like most toys, it's fun to play with.

[Gweiloman]

Not quite sure why you want to do this, since it will give you no performance advantage, waiting around for the revs to be right and will probably end in tears.

If you break a clutch cable in the middle of nowhere you can do it to get home, but they fit a clutch for a purpose.

AllanB,

Do you ride a bike with a clutch and manual gears?

You only need to match revs for clutchless downshifts. For upshifts, you can do it pretty much anytime you like.

[soihok]

Clutchless upshifts are easy, clutchless downshifts are an area I have no interest in experiencing. Nothing to gain by it.

I regularly go up without the clutch from 3rd upwards.

[taninthai]

so i was trying this out on my hornet yesterday ,under 5000 revs it will up or downshift pretty easy with no problems at all as you are going faster it becomes little more difficult ,would i want to mess around like this when I'm red lining it at 13,000 rpm ...not really..as rubber side down says for road riding its more a toy that is not really needed ,for a track bike a dedicated quick shifter is a great addition that will improve lap times.

[ll2]

clutchless shifting brings smooth power transmission and fast gear changes everywhere, streets, track, touring.

and it becomes easier when the speed is higher and no problems on doing it at 13,000 rpm actually it will give you smoother gear changes and does not upset the bike.

Just you need experience doing it and once you get it, hard to turn back.